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View Full Version : OT: Italian Agent shot by US soldiers in Iraq



U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:30 PM
An Italian agent in Iraq has been shot in the head as he protected a newly released hostage on her way home. The woman and her bodyguards were travelling by van when they approached a US checkpoint. The soldiers opened fire on the oncoming car, and despite the US claiming they fired warning shots first, the woman stresses there was no such warning.
A man died today saving the life of another, and now leaves a family behind. The antagonist of this story were members of the 3rd Infantry Division, a divison reknowned for the 'routine' nature of the killings they bring upon civillians. Bush's administration have already set their eyes upon their next target; it's only a matter of time before they (and us in Britain) are dragged into another war with Syria.
Anyway, here's to the agent who saved the life of the hostage. If it had not been for that selfless act, it's difficult to see how much worse the situation could be for America. R.I.P.

Nieldo
03-07-2005, 12:33 PM
major politics here... im not touching this it could be hot flaim bait

RIP to the Italian Agent

Charlie901
03-07-2005, 12:33 PM
Mods please lock this thread!

This political inflamatory post should not be allowed on these forums it can only lead to problems.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

necrobaron
03-07-2005, 12:34 PM
Trolls like this shouldn't be allowed here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:38 PM
What have I done wrong here?

I have posted up some recent news which I think should be brought to everybodies attention. I did so in respect to the Italian agent, I am in no way having a go at Americans in general, simply the Bush administration and perhaps the US army, with their cowboy approach to these matters.

I do not think I should be silenced simply because of that.

If someone wishes to argue with me, fine, as long as it is mature and does not dissolve into unnecessary flames. I would not call myself a troll either, I just want to see what everyone's views are on the matter.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-07-2005, 12:39 PM
Was the Italian agent in a U-Boat when he was shot?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:41 PM
A van. Anyways, I put OT for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif.

necrobaron
03-07-2005, 12:41 PM
This is a forum for Silent Hunter III. As far as I'm concerned discussions here should be limited to SHIII and perhaps subs in general. If you want to post your little political tirade, that's fine, but here's not the place to do it.

necrobaron
03-07-2005, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
Was the Italian agent in a U-Boat when he was shot?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:44 PM
I clearly marked this topic out as OT. If you did not want to read it, then its a problem on your half. The fact is, half the topics on this forum are OT (Totties thread for eg). Why target this specific one?
PS. dont target Totties thread, definately dont want that closed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Cruz1317
03-07-2005, 12:45 PM
Well, a couple of things.

1. I think everybody who owns a computer and has a connection to the i-net has heard of it anyway.

2. Whoever has heard of it, I am sure has his or her opinion about it.

3. This forum, I am pretty sure too, is not the place to mouth those opinions. After all, this is like the waiting line for a concert of the Beatles (assuming they would have all been brought back to life). Now imagine yourself walking up to that line and stating what you just stated.

just my 2 cents

Charlie901
03-07-2005, 12:47 PM
Marking a post O.T. and starting an inflamatory political post are two completely different issuse.

As far as I see it, by your tone and remarks, your looking for a fight, by "Trolling", and again this doesn't belong here.

And no I'm not going to bite this hook.

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cruz1317:
1. I think everybody who owns a computer and has a connection to the i-net has heard of it anyway. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

About the news story? I just heard about it now on C4, not through the Internet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cruz1317:
2. Whoever has heard of it, I am sure has his or her opinion about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, I want to find other ppls views on it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cruz1317:
3. This forum, I am pretty sure too, is not the place to mouth those opinions. After all, this is like the waiting line for a concert of the Beatles (assuming they would have all been brought back to life). Now imagine yourself walking up to that line and stating what you just stated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

tradish
03-07-2005, 12:50 PM
I think it has to do with the non-neutrality of your wording.

For example:

"Once again, US soldiers display there ferocious trigger happy approach to combat, with their shoot first, ask questions later routine."

"I am in no way having a go at Americans in general, simply the Bush administration and perhaps the US army, with their cowboy approach to these matters."

Putting it like that is bound to put a biased slant on it and offend others.

Sir-Tiedeman
03-07-2005, 12:50 PM
I feel ze heet herr kaleun!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Ja mein medchen. JA!!!!

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie901:
As far as I see it, by your tone and remarks, your looking for a fight, by "Trolling", and again this doesn't belong here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is very difficult to interpret what tone something is on the Internet, probably the only way is to use similies, which I didn't use for the above post. I assure you, I am not looking for a fight, I just want some other opinions on the matter.

KnucklesWhite
03-07-2005, 12:51 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/Booner013/Junk/hugemanatee.jpg

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tradish:
I think it has to do with the non-neutrality of your wording.

For example:

"Once again, US soldiers display there ferocious trigger happy approach to combat, with their shoot first, ask questions later routine."

"I am in no way having a go at Americans in general, simply the Bush administration and perhaps the US army, with their cowboy approach to these matters."

Putting it like that is bound to put a biased slant on it and offend others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, yes maybe your right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Sry, I guess my opinion sort of intersected there a little bit. No offence meant there, not having a go at anyone but army/govt. I guess I was feeling a bit bitter after hearing of it, but when you think about it, it is just another accident to add to the slate...

JG27_Arklight
03-07-2005, 12:52 PM
If you were looking for opinions, and opinions only, then you wouldn't post comments such as this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Once again, US soldiers display there ferocious trigger happy approach to combat, with their shoot first, ask questions later routine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm not even going to get into this with you.

Just wanting other people's views? BS.

Cruz1317
03-07-2005, 12:54 PM
Just heard of it now? The story is already a couple of days old if i am not mistaken. And what I meant by 3. is, that this place is basically a big gathering of people just waiting for a pc-game to come out. Now a pc-game, even a WW2 subsim, is quite far away from todays political happenings. I am sure that's why you are not getting any positive responses on your thread here.

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:54 PM
Once again, heat of the moment, and my own opinion of the matter. I only wanted to see what other peoples feelings were.

hakentt
03-07-2005, 12:55 PM
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"

LOL

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"

LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correction: killing none of the crew. Now its funny.

Philipscdrw
03-07-2005, 12:58 PM
In fairness, American armed forces are renown for friendly fire incidents - last week I was reading a book by a Typhoon squadron/station commander, mentioning the number of times he was fired upon by eager but inexperienced USAAF Thunderbolt pilots. I'm not intending to attack America with this view, but it is a historical trend...

"When we fire, the Germans/Russians/North Koreans/Viet Cong/Iraqis duck. When the Germans/Russians et.al. fire, we duck. When the Americans fire, everybody ducks!" as the saying goes!

But the American armed forces still rock, despite this...

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 01:00 PM
OK, I'm going to edit out my opinions from 1st post. Only posting facts. Perhaps it was a bad idea, already 2 pages of accusations against me after a few minutes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Dominicrigg
03-07-2005, 01:01 PM
Pu$$ies A$$holes and d1cks kapitan. Thats peoples opinions

Pu$$ies say let iran build nukes and syria train terrorists to blow up people, they dont hurt us. Let the arabs kill each other who cares?

D1cks say the sooner syria and iran are ruled by democracies and the people are free the better, and we are the ones to do that. A safer world for everyone.

A$$holes are the ones causing all the sh1t lol.

Hope that sorts it out for you, this was bound to cause nothing but a heated argument between the 3 camps which gets nowhere.

ps before you jump on american forces for being "cowboys" and shooting at everyone, think about the situation they put up with, including suicide bombers in pickups ect... You getting ichy trigger finger thinking about it?

julien673
03-07-2005, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"

LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/image.php?u=35322&dateline=1108032543

Change your avatar... isn t really clear but i know what is that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

hakentt
03-07-2005, 01:05 PM
Remember the US sumbarine running aground? Maybe they were experimenting new underwater nukes?

"It is also noteworthy to mention that the catastrophe (running aground could in fact be
considered as a catastrophe!) occurred approximately (plus or minus a thousand mile, which isn"' so much on the grand ocean's scale) in the region of the most recent underwater earthquake (which led to destructive tsunami in South-East Asia. Was the submarine's positioning in that particular area purely accidental? Time will show."

http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/368/14796_Submarine.html

JG27_Arklight
03-07-2005, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"

LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Find the idiocy in this quote and win a free set of steak knives!

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dominicrigg:
Pu$$ies A$$holes and d1cks kapitan. Thats peoples opinions

Pu$$ies say let iran build nukes and syria train terrorists to blow up people, they dont hurt us. Let the arabs kill each other who cares?

D1cks say the sooner syria and iran are ruled by democracies and the people are free the better, and we are the ones to do that. A safer world for everyone.

A$$holes are the ones causing all the sh1t lol. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Straight from Team America? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dominicrigg:
ps before you jump on american forces for being "cowboys" and shooting at everyone, think about the situation they put up with, including suicide bombers in pickups ect... You getting ichy trigger finger thinking about it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

American ff is much higher than other coal;ition forces in Iraq, but I do understand what youre getting at here, and I have respect for them (even if I don't show it) for putting their **** on the line for their country. It is the stupid ones who show up the army and I don't think the others should pay for their mistakes.

U-551 Kapitan
03-07-2005, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"

LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Find the idiocy in this quote and win a free set of steak knives! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saying 'killing half the crew' in a light heartened expression.

Hongweibing
03-07-2005, 02:00 PM
We should actually get the point of view directly from an Iraki subsimmer. But i suspect we will have to wait a while before it happens.
Pretty sure we would all go quiet then.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-07-2005, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cruz1317:
Just heard of it now? The story is already a couple of days old if i am not mistaken. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know there was a statute of limitations on political discourse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Ice414
03-07-2005, 02:41 PM
I would like to add a small comment about your initial post.First off, the vehicle was traveling a high rate of speed and warning shots were fired. The shots that hit the unfortunate people were fired into the engine block to try to stop the vehicle. If the american army wanted to kill the occupants, they would have shot into the interior of the van and have killed all inside. Since you were not there im sure you dont understand how things happen in war. The US military has strick rules of engangment. Second thing that bothers me is the US has helped almost every coountry in Europe and has saved England in particular during WW2. if it had not been for the US i belive england would be occupied by nazi germany along with france an the rest of europe. Although I understand that the british peolpe stood fast and defended their homeland, they could have not done this with out the US supplying them before our entry into the war. And France would have not been free if not for the Americans. On closing I find it insulting that you stand there and insult my president and the armed forces of my country. I think you need to show some respect for a country who has saved yours.

eddie_wood
03-07-2005, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ice414:
First off, the vehicle was traveling a high rate of speed and warning shots were fired. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not according to the driver, he said 25-30mph. But then you will not believe anybody else will you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The shots that hit the unfortunate people were fired into the engine block to try to stop the vehicle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read 200+ rounds were used. How many does it take? Not exactly a controlled burst of fire from an assault weapon!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If the american army wanted to kill the occupants, they would have shot into the interior of the van and have killed all inside. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was more luck than judgement that not all were killed. Remember this was NOT a controlled burst of fire, it was a sustained attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since you were not there im sure you dont understand how things happen in war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well actually the British army have dealt with checkpoints in Northern Ireland for 30+ years. Typical that you assume that car bombs and terrorists are something new just because the yanks are having to deal with them recently.

It may have escaped your notice but other countries armed forces and police have had to deal with terrorists on their own soil for decades.


(Big snip of the yanks won the war, yawn)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On closing I find it insulting that you stand there and insult my president and the armed forces of my country. I think you need to show some respect for a country who has saved yours. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't you see the irony in that america is fighting for Iraqs freedom, but then you get insulted when others have a difference of opinion with you.

Ice414
03-07-2005, 03:58 PM
Sir I do not mind if you have a differnce of opinion but you do not need to insult my country or my president that is my piont. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Shado2k2
03-07-2005, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Find the idiocy in this quote and win a free set of steak knives!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ark, what they like for throwing?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Shrap
03-07-2005, 04:11 PM
What a bias load of **** - this thread should be locked.

The OT WW2Online forum is where you want to go.

finchOU
03-07-2005, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
This is a forum for Silent Hunter III. As far as I'm concerned discussions here should be limited to SHIII and perhaps subs in general. If you want to post your little political tirade, that's fine, but here's not the place to do it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen brother....what does this have to do with SHIII. I posted a O/T post about a computer virus I had......(which might impact my computer gaming)..this would be a good O/T post.

If you dont get this, then realise anyone, could really post really anything no matter how aabsurd. Please think before you post.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 04:21 PM
First of all..cant wait to play the game..but secondly must reply to this obvious attack on America and her
Armed Forces.Lets use a little "common sense here" .I totally believe the vehicle was traveling at a high rate of speed...Im sure as she was just released
the thought was get her out fast and not take any chances that she is kidnapped again by another group..does
one really think the same "terrorists" who held her in the first place are beyond capturing her again or some
other force once the word is on the streets she's being released? Secondly..the road upon which they traveled
is the main road to the Bagdhad airport..a known "combat zone" where attacks upon coalition forces happen
routinely..additionally...look at the employer of this woman.she works for "Il Manefesto" spelling is probalby off
here..but does it wring a bell? the Manifest? its a known leftwing/socialist paper which hates America, Bush
and our foreign policy...Next..ask youself does this woman have an axe to grind given this?
Then consider the the incident itself relating to this womand perception...she had intelligence agent..I would
imagine (unless the agent is a complete idiot) that her head was DOWN during the drive so as not to attract
attention and protect her..remember..she wasn't out for a stroll down to the neighborhood gelato shop to indulge
in some ice cream..shed been held captive and Im sure suffering from some major stress... so her ability
to accurately perceive what happened would be off...Also..what if it had been a car bomb and the americans
didnt open fire and 20 Americans and Iraqi's were killed? The first thing the press and families would be shouting
is why was the car not stopped? Your damed if you do damed if you dont..I myself err on the side of the brave
young men and women living in a world of stress and combat that they must err on caution given prior incidents
and dont believe the credibility for a moment of a woman who had been held captive...and has a tremendous
political bent. I certainly could be wrong...but its very convenient to tell her side of the story and use this
as a stepping stone to incite public fevor in Italy to pull their troops out. The Europeans as well
are not exactly known for their great ability to solve problems..they have a fair military at best and thus
MUST resort to diplomacy which has so far worked GREAT with Iran and North Korea...likewise...the real "antognist" in this whole story may just be the prior dictatorshp in Iraq and the terrorist who blow themselves up for their 72 virgins and the money paid to their family..perhaps they have something to do with the US response to automobiles/vans traveling down hot zones being fired upon when they fail to respond to commands to stop..and I know too many good Marines and other members of the armed forces to believe that given the prior shootings that they would deviate form their standard procedure. Next..the woman is now changing her story..saying they were fired upon without any warning as they were traveling at a normal rate of speed..now she claims they were "deliberately targeted" because the Italians negotiated her release and as a "sign" of US displeasure and stance not to negotiate with terrorists..too many suppositions by a woman who proably saw nothing..and if she did..probably is not able to accuratly account what happened given her emotional state and own political bent.
Just my two cents worth..now
bring on the game!

hakentt
03-07-2005, 04:47 PM
Europeans are known for debate. When something is going on they just debate but do nothing. In balkans war was raging 4 years and europeans just debated it. But USA delivered action.

Last european country that did not like to debate a lot but deliver action was Hitler and nazi Germany. That regime was same as USA administrations over the years.

Bush: debates a little and delivers action
Hitler: debates a little and delivers action

USA=Nazi Germany in 40s

I love USA and I Love silent hunter 3

Nice to see so many NAZI kriegsmarine simpathisers on this forum.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Hakentt..you say USA is Nazi Germany in the 40's? What medictions are you on and how much do you take? I'd seriously either cut wayyy down (shoot..you may even want to INCREASE your dosage..or go and get a second opinion re your condition..your obviously delusional..if the above scenario does not fit.then you 14 years old and dont have a clue..
You also have an SS eagle as your avatar..and "haken" is only part of the german word for swastika..which is "hakenKREUZ"..so.are we to believe that your REAL name is "hakenkreuz"..or swastika..and HakenTT is just some sort of abbreviation...wowowow..your wayyy out there!!

jdlnorcal
03-07-2005, 04:58 PM
First of all everyone is NOT a Xian in a foxhole, I for one am a Jew in all foxholes!!!
Now for the American hating guy, consider the source for the claims, ie, a commie ***** writer for the Italian commie paper. I hope they did shoot her on principal, maybe the next time some eurotrash will think twice before paying ransom to terrorists, so that they can kidnap more hostages!! They were warned to not negioate with the kidnappers, and choose to ignore the warning, what do you think will happen at a checkpoint when a car full of singing drunks speeds toward the soldiers??? I would rather 10 dead commies than another American soldier who is just doing his job,.
Elie the Chaya

Antrodemus
03-07-2005, 04:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nice to see so many NAZI kriegsmarine simpathisers on this forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's definitely time for moderator action here...

A.

JJCarter
03-07-2005, 04:59 PM
I must say hakentt, that has to be one of the most offensive posts I've seen anyone post in these forums. You owe everyone an apology for that one.

If you have >>any<< true knowledge of history, you should be ashamed of yourself. I could throw various explicatives in your direction, but I refuse to participate further in such a blatent disrespect for your fellow man. Comparing the particpants of this forum with Nazi sympathizers is unexscusable....If I were a Mod, I'd ban your sorry behind from even viewing the website, or forums.

wolfh2o
03-07-2005, 05:02 PM
Why isint this thread locked? If this forum doesent already have a rule stating no political or religious discussions it needs one. Plenty of other places to talk about that...it doesent need to be here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

eddie_wood
03-07-2005, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
I totally believe the vehicle was traveling at a high rate of speed... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand why though. Is it because that's what the americans are saying? Why are you so quick to believe them?

The DRIVER has stated that they were doing no more than 30mph. THE DRIVER, not the passenger. I don't know who to believe, but I do not just accept one side of the story like you have.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Secondly..the road upon which they traveled is the main road to the Bagdhad airport..a known "combat zone" where attacks upon coalition forces happen routinely <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is more heavily used by the civilian population! The americans had a TEMPORARY checkpoint setup there and hence it would not be known by the Italians that they were operating one at that location.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...its a known leftwing/socialist paper which hates America, Bush and our foreign policy...Next..ask youself does this woman have an axe to grind given this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So they put themselves in danger on purpose to get a story? LOL. I find your obvious bias astounding, somebody was killed, have you no sympathy?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would imagine (unless the agent is a complete idiot) that her head was DOWN during the drive... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. This is just getting silly now, you have been watching too many films.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...so her ability to accurately perceive what happened would be off... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was the DRIVER that said what happened. Did you actually read both sides of the story?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I myself err on the side of the brave
young men and women living in a world of stress and combat that they must err on caution given prior incidents <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You err on the side of there being innocent civilians in the vehicle who either don't understand or haven't seen your instructions to stop. You don't unload hundreds of rounds into it.

The rest of your post is a typical american view of the World around you...

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to be vigilant on a checkpoint. However I don't readily accept either side of the story as quick as some of you americans have.

It also doesn't help you cause by going down the "america is great and the rest of the World is sh1t" routine. It only serves to highlight your ignorance of the World outside of Hicksville, USA.

You lot created the mess, so is it any surprise if the World sits back while you lot sort it out? If you are so great, why are you afraid of sorting North Korea out then....?

jdlnorcal
03-07-2005, 05:05 PM
I agree, and must apologize, I just couldn't let that pass by, but I should have, lets get on to the silent service again
Elie The Chaya

blue_76
03-07-2005, 05:11 PM
well, the man said said OT (off topic) and those who don't wish to participate, don't have to. there are some in this forum who may want to express their opinion on the subject..
There is also another story simmilar to this one that took place around the same time of the incident...
here's a quote from the article:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Bulgarian soldier believed killed by US in Iraq
(Filed: 07/03/2005)

A Bulgarian soldier serving in Iraq with the coalition is believed to have been shot dead by American forces.

The Bulgarian soldier was killed in southern Iraq on Friday evening, about the same time that US forces in Baghdad opened fire on a vehicle taking kidnapped Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport shortly after her captors freed her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jdlnorcal
03-07-2005, 05:11 PM
Mr Wood;
This is really toooo much!!
Your hatred for America is soooo typical of the eurotrash who have never gotten over loosing their places in the world, stay home and count your eruos, and leave the rest of the world to us who understand what to do, and as for N. Korea, do you think for a minute that they could stand up for a minute to the USA? PLEASE... we could turn them into a glass parking lot in a microminute,
There I've had my say, now lets get back to sh3
Elie the Chaya

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 05:14 PM
Eddie..I dont live in Hicksville USA..and Ive lived in Europe for several years and Russia..and been to most continents..Im sure I've watched a lot of films as I do so love movies. However..I'd bet if I were that '
1. You dislike America

Im 43 and an attorney (big deal Iknow..but point is I do have an education and frame of reference..Eddie Im sure does as well)..with a masters and a doctorate degree..I've probably read a couple of thousand books re european/american history..political and historical. I think I've had enough real world and job experience to form and educated opinion..although Im sure others may respectfully disagee with it..thats what makes America GREAT that we can agree to disagree without blowing each other up as in the middle east..Eddies comments I respect as he does disscect the discussion...Haken..on the other hand..his comments are just too far out there to be taken seriously...they are laughable and absurd..and only highlight the ignorance of many people.

JJCarter
03-07-2005, 05:15 PM
I think a review of the "TERMS OF USE" is in order. Just marking a thread "Off Topic" does not excuse the content. This thread should not only be locked, but also deleted. This is a Silent Hunter III Forum. Treat it as such.

eddie_wood
03-07-2005, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdlnorcal:
Your hatred for America is soooo typical of the eurotrash <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How have you established that I hate america? Because I question a version of events put forward by you? How odd.

Would it help if I said that I don't blindly accept the Italian version of events either?

I note that you haven't commented on any of my points on the news item. That says it all really.

KC23
03-07-2005, 05:38 PM
WTF is this thread doing on this forum?

This should of been locked immediately.

Fricken trolls are everywhere.

Antrodemus
03-07-2005, 05:39 PM
UBIRAZZ!!!

Sorry to drag you away from your testing procedures http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but this is only going to get worse...

A.

eddie_wood
03-07-2005, 05:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
1. You HATE America
2. Your another European from "po dunk U" Europe who just doesn't like that America..Bush..or our foreign policy.
Im 43 and an attorney..with a masters and a doctorate degree..what do you do? I've probably read a couple of thousand books re european/american history..political and historical..I may hedge a bet that you pump gas and your favorite book is "the little train that could"..just a guess mind you..(woops..excuse me..I made a mistake...europeans would pump "petrol" and not gas) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where has this "I hate america" nonesense come from? Just because I don't agree with you?

It is interesting to note that an experienced attorney such as yourself accepts a version of events that has not been properly investigated.

A car allegedly travelling at 30mph in the dark is shot with 300 to 400 rounds (source BBC) and you as an attorney simply dismiss it?

When asked how easy it would be to see the troops at the checkpoint US Lt. Col. Clifford Kent of the 3rd Infantry Division said "Depending on where it is, that could be difficult."

banzai_alex
03-07-2005, 05:49 PM
I havent been following this, but as i have found out posting politics here is bad. All we should say is that knowing how a soldier reacts, as should all of us, involves split-second desicions. When the car didnt slow down do u think the marines cared who was driving? It was a Iraqi driver i think, maybe not. But, if any of us were playing COD, and we saw a truck racing towards us, what would u do (empty a Thompson clip into it)

Messervy
03-07-2005, 05:50 PM
Eddie_wood
You haven˙t been around when something simmilar happened. ( <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">I am NOT refering to hakkentt`s post</span>)
Back then someone made a funny comment regarding a US sub that ran aground.
He wasn`t really mean, just clumsy in his expresion (IIRC he was Finnish) and he˙s been out drinking with his friend.
Well, in less than an hour a Hell broke loose.

I don`t know where you are from (I am European), but our fighting friends over the pond have zero tolerance for criticism, let alone a shadow of doubt.
I just learned to live with it. If you don`t press that "Patriotic panic" button everything is nice and smooth. They don`t bother me with their problems and I get to keep my "Weltanschaum" for my self.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SDG73
03-07-2005, 05:53 PM
Calm down now Carter,most of us are adults,we can handle it.Well said in your previous post ingsoc41 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gifAs being military myself i can relate to the dissing of our armed forces....nothing new.All i can say is try not to believe all that you hear and only half of what you see.I dont like to disgrace any nationality in here because certainly a small group of people doesnt represent a nation.We've all been through alot together as nations (USA,Europe)and have very strong ties.I have many relatives that are Brits,Scotts,Irish,Dutch,German.Hopefully these ties will only get stronger.Godbless all the men and women from every country that risk thier lives to ensure that these ties are never broken.

U-319
03-07-2005, 05:54 PM
Bottom line: When your in a War zone, you better be very careful.

Plus the Italians didn't give the US a heads up on their activities in the area that night. Is there not a Curfew at night on driving cars over there? Might have been another reason for the itchy fingers.

The Reporter worked for a Commie newspaper. So if thats true, then she's not going to paint US in a good light anyways.


Either way it's not Just the US's fault. Italy should have warned The US that they paid for a Hostage release and to expect a high speed or slow car coming into the green zone.

eddie_wood
03-07-2005, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-319:
Plus the Italians didn't give the US a heads up on their activities in the area that night. Is there not a Curfew at night on driving cars over there? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The driver called the embassy and Italy TWICE to inform them of their destination. Shame the message never got down to grunt level. I smell a rat and bet that the yanks weren't kept informed by Italy.

No idea about curfew, seems a reasonable bet that you would restrict traffic after dark.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Reporter worked for a Commie newspaper. So if thats true, then she's not going to paint US in a good light anyways. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And frankly, I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif She is releasing some stupid statements about being personally targeted. A grunt is not an assassin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Either way it's not Just the US's fault. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. Unless the Italian government states that they informed the US, then they are to blame for this tragic event.

eddie_wood
03-07-2005, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ice414:
Sir I do not mind if you have a differnce of opinion but you do not need to insult my country or my president that is my piont. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the OP was a bit OTT, but he has retracted it. So point taken http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Do they spell point "piont" in the US then? I thought it was just "colour" that you yanks couldn't spell http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tradish
03-07-2005, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hakentt:
Europeans are known for debate. When something is going on they just debate but do nothing. In balkans war was raging 4 years and europeans just debated it. But USA delivered action.

Last european country that did not like to debate a lot but deliver action was Hitler and nazi Germany. That regime was same as USA administrations over the years.

Bush: debates a little and delivers action
Hitler: debates a little and delivers action

USA=Nazi Germany in 40s

I love USA and I Love silent hunter 3

Nice to see so many NAZI kriegsmarine simpathisers on this forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, are you even serious.... and I thought Bin Laden and Hussein were bad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 06:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdlnorcal:
First of all everyone is NOT a Xian in a foxhole, I for one am a Jew in all foxholes!!!
Now for the American hating guy, consider the source for the claims, ie, a commie ***** writer for the Italian commie paper. I hope they did shoot her on principal, maybe the next time some eurotrash will think twice before paying ransom to terrorists, so that they can kidnap more hostages!! They were warned to not negioate with the kidnappers, and choose to ignore the warning, what do you think will happen at a checkpoint when a car full of singing drunks speeds toward the soldiers??? I would rather 10 dead commies than another American soldier who is just doing his job,.
Elie the Chaya <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JD..your right on the money.unfortanetly Europe has a fairly "colorful" history of appeasing terrorists (ie...Neville Chamberlin and "I bring you peace in our times" and the rest of europe that stood by and watch Hitler annex and invade one country after another)..so it dosn't surprise me that Italy would pony up cash for the italian's release..mind you..if it were one of our relatives..Im sure we all would be ponying up as much as we could for someone's release..but..when all is said and done.paying ransom to terrorists only encourages further acts of kidnapping and terrorism...which only puts MORE money in the hands of terrorists..so its a rather viscious cycle...
Eddie makes some valid points..and Im sure its a bit too far for me to make a statement re his job and education..I'll delete that..its not professional or nice..sorry...
as to the off the topic topic..its always healthy to have a good debate re other subjects.as long as it dosn't go down the shi##ter so to speak..but..I can see one's wanting to keep the subject on SH3..after all..we could all post on various blogs ad naeseum if we wanted to engage in this rhetoric..and this is a good escape from the real world..I just think its also "healthy" to get a dose of reality when there is so much going on in the world.and we have the luxury to
1. play computer games
2. the time and money to do so when most of the world is living in a very bad off way
enug said on my part

Rageman
03-07-2005, 06:40 PM
Its a sorry truth that the US Armed forces are renowned for thier "shoot first, think later" attitudes. They arent alone in this respect but they are the most visible offenders. I remember seeing a documentary of US forces in Iraq. They approached what seamed like an abandoned building, they qouted that intelligence had reported that enemy troops where in the area. The US forces opened fire without warning on the building then proceded to storm it. It was empty. What if there had been civilians inside?

Another example was when the same unit was searching a household for a suspected rebel. They moved the women and children into the living room whilst they searched the house, all the time weapons where pointed at the civilians, torches where shined in their faces, they where visibly terrified. Turns out they had the wrong house.

I'm by no means an American hater, but its the rediculous quantity of "collateral" that had me thinking the war in Iraq was a poor idea. I agree Hussain had to be removed for stability in the region and the protection of his people. But I just dont think US forces are the right people operate in such close proximity to civilians. Civilian casualties just cause more hatred against an occupying force.

The US Armed forces are a fantastic killing machine, its a sledgehammer in a job that requires a more surgical approach including post surgery care.

Its not anti-american to point out the weakness' that are visibly there to see. And to be honest, yes this is not the place to be discussing this delicate subject.

On a happier note, it appears that democracy is starting to take a foothold in the region, Iraq has started to accept its a democracy, Syria is listening to Lebanese pleas for its miltary to leave the country, and the peace between Isreal and the Palestinians is looking more solid than ever. Hopefully many years from now we can look back on this event as a tragic accident in a larger war that helped stabilise a troubled region.

Dominicrigg
03-07-2005, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:

JD..your right on the money.unfortanetly Europe has a fairly "colorful" history of appeasing terrorists (ie...Neville Chamberlin and "I bring you peace in our times" and the rest of europe that stood by and watch Hitler annex and invade one country after another).. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh guys come on. You are just escalating this argument, you are annoyed at peoples stupid comments so your reaction is to make another stupid comment?

Hitler was not a terrorist. Europe did not stand by and watch hitler that was america...

Britain does not have a history of appeasing terrorists and i find that sickening in the least. Look up the history of the IRA, check where most of their funding and weapons come from... Ill give you a hint, its under your feet. Look at the iranian embassy incident in Britain the SAS appeased them didnt they...
Spain has been dealing with terrorism since before I was born, they dont appease them.

Please dont insult other countries because you are annoyed, we all know stupid things have been said, now stop perpetuating it and educate or ignore the people as i have done with you.

**** it and i so wanted to stay out of this argument lol... Ignorance breeds predujice the lions share of people in this thread need to go read and stop ranting!

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 07:43 PM
Dominincrigg..do you really believe Hitler wasNOT a terrorist? come on...of course he was..he was a terrorist and dicatator per se..Im surprised in the dictonary next to Terrorist it dosnt say Middleeastern extremeists..Pol Pot..Hitler..Mussolini.Stalin, etc..just because a "terrorist" operates under his own selfimposed rule and "legitamacy" does not make him any less a terrorist.
Of course Europe sold out its neighboring states...most historians agree and even the germans mind you that the french could have kicked the germans out of the Ruhr area and had the power to do so..and the germans also were fairly shocked that the French didn't try!

Of course Europe sold Austria..the Ruhr..Czechoslovakia down the river...what do you think the Munich pact was all about? Chamberlain gave up Czeckoslovakia (and Austria in 38) to Hitler....America stood by and watched Germany? To a certain degree yes..but..America at that time was profoundly isolationist and the US people still had World War I and the blood shed by americans for the europeans fresh on their minds..but by no means was America part of the Munich pact..nor did they take part in it..
Spain not appeasing Terrorists? wow...geezz...read some modern history..I think Spain cut and run from Iraq AND elected a socialist government that patently HATES the united states after the madrid bombings...
Domincrigg..I dont think you've educated me..as Im not buying your "reeducation program"...Im sorry but I think you have a lot of facts wrong here..England is one of the few nations that does not appease terrorists in the modern world..however.as far as Hitler goes..I think its quite a stretch to state he was NOT a terrorist...would you have us believe he was just another statesman with a colorful flag? Saying HItler was not a terroirst is ignorant..what do youcall dictators who haul people out of bed at 300 am and send them to their death in camps and up the chimminy? Sh##..I think you've been reading Il Manifesto out of Italy too long!

JG27_Arklight
03-07-2005, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shado2k2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Find the idiocy in this quote and win a free set of steak knives!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ark, what they like for throwing?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tell you in a minute.

I'm sharpening them now.

And Shrap is right, this DOES belong in the WWIIOL OT Forum.

archer49d
03-07-2005, 07:47 PM
There seems to be another problem with how her release was achieved, nameley that a 10-15 million dollar ransom was paid...
How many Stinger SFAAMs can you buy for 10 mil?

thefalen
03-07-2005, 07:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
An Italian agent in Iraq has been shot in the head as he protected a newly released hostage on her way home. The woman and her bodyguards were travelling by van when they approached a US checkpoint. The soldiers opened fire on the oncoming car, and despite the US claiming they fired warning shots first, the woman stresses there was no such warning.
A man died today saving the life of another, and now leaves a family behind. The antagonist of this story were members of the 3rd Infantry Division, a divison reknowned for the 'routine' nature of the killings they bring upon civillians. Funny for a country which claims its aims are to protect the lives of civillians.
Bush's administration have already set their eyes upon their next target; it's only a matter of time before they (and us in Britain) are dragged into another war with Syria.
Anyway, here's to the agent who saved the life of the hostage. If it had not been for that selfless act, it's difficult to see how much worse the situation could be for America. R.I.P. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really really really try to never wish anything bad on anyone no matter what kind of person they are or what they beleive. Some people stress this to the max.

If you are too much of a pacifist to do anything in the world to maintain your freedom, then you need to stop b1tching about anything that happens - because of your initial pacifism

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by archer49d:
There seems to be another problem with how her release was achieved, nameley that a 10-15 million dollar ransom was paid...
How many Stinger SFAAMs can you buy for 10 mil? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Archer..good point..having lived in Russia and knowing them very well...I'd say 10 million would buy you quite a few and there are plenty of "busnissmen" in Russia as they like to call themselves would would drop a dime on their mother AND sell these missles for the cash..as many as they can find...unfortunately..the only thing the Italians did in paying the ransom was to educate the terrorists in the region as to one thing:.take more european hostages (perferably spanish and italians) and the cash will flow..not quite the precedent I'd like to set..but...its spilled milk now...the terrorists will only continue to be "spurred" on by this apparent success on thier behalf..as far as Im concerned..Italy (which has had about as many postwar governments as they have had years since the end of WWII) havn't learned a thing since WWII. Why they gave up this much cash for a left wing socialist/communist reporter is beyond me..and of course I dont think the journalist "manufactured" the story and her situation for a story..shes just an opportunist.and using it to further her own political agenda

Jester_159th
03-07-2005, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Dominincrigg..do you really believe Hitler wasNOT a terrorist? come on...of course he was..he was a terrorist and dicatator per se..Im surprised in the dictonary next to Terrorist it dosnt say Middleeastern extremeists..Pol Pot..Hitler..Mussolini.Stalin, etc..just because a "terrorist" operates under his own selfimposed rule and "legitamacy" does not make him any less a terrorist.
Of course Europe sold out its neighboring states...most historians agree and even the germans mind you that the french could have kicked the germans out of the Ruhr area and had the power to do so..and the germans also were fairly shocked that the French didn't try!

Of course Europe sold Austria..the Ruhr..Czechoslovakia down the river...what do you think the Munich pact was all about? Chamberlain gave up Czeckoslovakia (and Austria in 38) to Hitler....America stood by and watched Germany? To a certain degree yes..but..America at that time was profoundly isolationist and the US people still had World War I and the blood shed by americans for the europeans fresh on their minds..but by no means was America part of the Munich pact..nor did they take part in it..
Spain not appeasing Terrorists? wow...geezz...read some modern history..I think Spain cut and run from Iraq AND elected a socialist government that patently HATES the united states after the madrid bombings...
Domincrigg..I dont think you've educated me..as Im not buying your "reeducation program"...Im sorry but I think you have a lot of facts wrong here..England is one of the few nations that does not appease terrorists in the modern world..however.as far as Hitler goes..I think its quite a stretch to state he was NOT a terrorist...would you have us believe he was just another statesman with a colorful flag? Saying HItler was not a terroirst is ignorant..what do youcall dictators who haul people out of bed at 300 am and send them to their death in camps and up the chimminy? Sh##..I think you've been reading Il Manifesto out of Italy too long! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So by that logic it's fine for the Americans to be concerned about their losses during WW1, but not for France or Britian? Afterall that's where the appeasement movement came from. Both Britain and France lost many more men than the US did. The politicians vowed they would never suffer such losses again.

As to the rest of your post. I honestly think you need to re-read your European history.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 08:01 PM
Sorry Jester..I've got a masters in it from Notre Dame in Indiana..and before you put down NOtre Dame..or say I didnt learn anything..Im afraid I know much more on it than you do...there is nothing wrong with what I have posted historically. By the way jester..do you know who Chamberlain was..and the nature of the Munich pact/agreement? I think the BBC did a great documentary called "The World at War"..take a look at a bit of it..what I've said historically as far as this is pretty basic stuff...historically its pretty much 7th grade history stuff...I only bring up the "visual" of WWII and history just in case a video as opposed to an actual BOOK is more to your liking..of course there are many fine works out on the subject.

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>JG27_Arklight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>hakentt:
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"
LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Find the idiocy in this quote and win a free set of steak knives! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where to start?

BTW, do we get to try the knives out on this 'insert descriptive expletive here'

SDG73
03-07-2005, 08:05 PM
I think the 10 mil would by them at least 100 or so suicide bombers and do alot more damage..sad that they cant realize,thats what happens when you negotiate with terrorists http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

JG27_Arklight
03-07-2005, 08:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>JG27_Arklight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>hakentt:
Listen to this:

I was day dreaming today and imagined what if some lost U boat in the atlantic woke up from the long dead on the bottom on the ocean and surfaced. While some heavy US air craft carrier is sailing for Iraq the U boat torpedos is it badly and it sinks. ha ha ha that would be hell of a movie.

Imagine news report on that one:

"Unknown sumbarine torpedoed 30 ton USS blablabla sunking her and killing half of the crew. Surviving witnesses say it appeared to them it was German WW2 U boat"

Imagine Bush on the news:

"Horrible news terrorists found a new way to kill americans"
LOL <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Find the idiocy in this quote and win a free set of steak knives! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where to start?

BTW, do we get to try the knives out on this '_insert descriptive expletive here_' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

But you have to sign the completely void waiver form first.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SDG73:
I think the 10 mil would by them at least 100 or so suicide bombers and do alot more damage..sad that they cant realize,thats what happens when you negotiate with terrorists http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on the money SdG...only thing is the going rate for sucide bombers paid to their families these days is 10-20K..so 10 million buys a lot more than 100...too tired to do the math..but you know what I mean

archer49d
03-07-2005, 08:12 PM
Nice to see someone agrees with me on this one... Beyond which you can't say your fighting terrorism (like Italy) and pay the terrorists to continue fighting you... Where the F is the logic?

Messervy
03-07-2005, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Sorry Jester..I've got a masters in it from Notre Dame in Indiana..and before you put down NOtre Dame..or say I didnt learn anything..Im afraid I know much more on it than you do...there is nothing wrong with what I have posted historically. By the way jester..do you know who Chamberlain was..and the nature of the Munich pact/agreement? I think the BBC did a great documentary called "The World at War"..take a look at a bit of it..what I've said historically as far as this is pretty basic stuff...historically its pretty much 7th grade history stuff...I only bring up the "visual" of WWII and history just in case a video as opposed to an actual BOOK is more to your liking..of course there are many fine works out on the subject. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. You have very high opinion about yourself.
Anyway, maybe, just maybe had the America suffered the amount of devastation the Europe had suffered I am sure you would have some sort of appeasement movement on your own. So far you only had Pearl Harbour and 9/11.
As far as meeting the demands of terorists is concerned I agree wholehartedly that this action should never have happened.

SDG73
03-07-2005, 08:21 PM
what really pisses me off,is these so called journalists that put themselves in these situations in order to capitalize on some BS rhetoric and when the knife is pointed at them they cry for help.For as many incidents that has happened between reporters and the military,I think they're on thin ice.Wouldn't surprise me if you dont see them on future battlefields or the military is gonna be very selective in what they allow.

archer49d
03-07-2005, 08:24 PM
"Our armies do not come into your cities and lands, as conquerors and enemies but as liberators, it is not the wish of our government to impose upon you alien institutions, it is our wish that you should prosper, even as in the past, when your lands were fertile, when your ancestors gave to the world literature, science, and art, and when Baghdad city was one of the wonders of the world. It is our hope that the aspirations of your philosophers and writers shall be realized, and that once again the people of Baghdad shall flourish, enjoying their wealth and substance under institutions, which are in continence with their sacred laws and their racial ideals.€

Heres an interesting text I just had to share with all of you from my home library, I'll give you guys a few shots at guessing who said it before I tell you, the answer may (or may not) surprise you.

SDG73
03-07-2005, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Sorry Jester..I've got a masters in it from Notre Dame in Indiana..and before you put down NOtre Dame..or say I didnt learn anything..Im afraid I know much more on it than you do...there is nothing wrong with what I have posted historically. By the way jester..do you know who Chamberlain was..and the nature of the Munich pact/agreement? I think the BBC did a great documentary called "The World at War"..take a look at a bit of it..what I've said historically as far as this is pretty basic stuff...historically its pretty much 7th grade history stuff...I only bring up the "visual" of WWII and history just in case a video as opposed to an actual BOOK is more to your liking..of course there are many fine works out on the subject. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. You have very high opinion about yourself.
Anyway, maybe, just maybe had the America suffered the amount of devastation the Europe had suffered I am sure you would have some sort of appeasement movement on your own. So far you only had Pearl Harbour and 9/11.
As far as meeting the demands of terorists is concerned I agree wholehartedly that this action should never have happened. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> dont forget the civil war....lots of lives lost there

Yog_Shoggoth
03-07-2005, 08:27 PM
To Hakentt: This is a problem with most bystanders about simmers piloting German aircraft/ships, people assume that you like the politics if you like the technology. While I think that there was not a single positive aspect of nazi mentality, they sure had some d@mn good scientists and inventors. That's why I'm more likely to fly a Me 262 and boat in a type XXI.

On this subject, you have to realize the mental stress on both parties, not just the us soldiers. The stress on the soldiers is bad enough, but the woman, an untrained civilian who believed America was evil before getting shot at, goes from being a hostage to being fired upon has good excuse to be a little unflatering. Is she right? Probably not. Is her criticism understandable? Unfortunetly, yes.

diveplane
03-07-2005, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
What have I done wrong here?

I have posted up some recent news which I think should be brought to everybodies attention. I did so in respect to the Italian agent, I am in no way having a go at Americans in general, simply the Bush administration and perhaps the US army, with their cowboy approach to these matters.

I do not think I should be silenced simply because of that.

If someone wishes to argue with me, fine, as long as it is mature and does not dissolve into unnecessary flames. I would not call myself a _troll_ either, I just want to see what everyone's views are on the matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


my eyes youve said nothing wrong, every 1 is
allowed to air there opinion, i to feel very
strongly, and against this iraq situation,

us and uk troops have done there job, bring them home ..and let iraq build on its self,

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 08:30 PM
If any of you critics of what happened have served in Iraq and have dealt with the suicide bombings and terrorist strikes, you are more than welcome to keep the complaints coming. If you haven't experienced this, however, then you have NO right to criticize. I spent a year there as one of those very same grunts you are mocking. It was hell. And when a two-second delay can cost you your life, you shoot first and ask questions later. Anybody without a death wish who had been in the same position as those soldiers would have done the same.

A little side-note: I resent the opinions on this board stating that grunts are mentally-challenged morons. I scored in the 98th percentile on my LSAT, one of the most difficult standardized tests in America. So quit stereotyping. I resent it.

Messervy
03-07-2005, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SDG73:
dont forget the civil war....lots of lives lost there <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Civil wars don`t count in this equasion. They are internal matter and I am not going to bring the indian wars into it as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nukem_Hicks:
..you have NO right to criticize...
I resent the opinions.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No comment . . .

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nukem_Hicks:
..you have NO right to criticize...
I resent the opinions.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No comment . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. You have reached a new low. What's with changing my comments around?

SDG73
03-07-2005, 08:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SDG73:
dont forget the civil war....lots of lives lost there <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Civil wars don`t count in this equasion. They are internal matter and I am not going to bring the indian wars into it as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> War is war and devistation is devistation no matter it being internal or external..lives are lost.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 08:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Sorry Jester..I've got a masters in it from Notre Dame in Indiana..and before you put down NOtre Dame..or say I didnt learn anything..Im afraid I know much more on it than you do...there is nothing wrong with what I have posted historically. By the way jester..do you know who Chamberlain was..and the nature of the Munich pact/agreement? I think the BBC did a great documentary called "The World at War"..take a look at a bit of it..what I've said historically as far as this is pretty basic stuff...historically its pretty much 7th grade history stuff...I only bring up the "visual" of WWII and history just in case a video as opposed to an actual BOOK is more to your liking..of course there are many fine works out on the subject. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. You have very high opinion about yourself.
Anyway, maybe, just maybe had the America suffered the amount of devastation the Europe had suffered I am sure you would have some sort of appeasement movement on your own. So far you only had Pearl Harbour and 9/11.
As far as meeting the demands of terorists is concerned I agree wholehartedly that this action should never have happened. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Its not a high opinion of myself..that would be "arrogant"..however...having said that...there is nothing wrong with self confidence..what about having a masters and a doctorate do you consider "a high opinion of one's self" unless you are just intimidated by educated people..I worked very very hard to achieve what I have in life..and that cannot be taken away or diminished you you or others like you who are of your "mind"..

Messervy
03-07-2005, 08:52 PM
@SDG73
All right point taken.
Yet in this particular discipline we Europeans are absolute Champions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

archer49d
03-07-2005, 08:52 PM
The post at the top was said by General F.S. Maude, the leader of the British forces in Baghdad in March of 1917.

By the way... the US Civil War is a misnomer if I've ever heard/seen one, that was a war between two countries which were in legal (and military) terms independant of each other. It was an invasion of the CSA by the USA, which ended in the annexation of the CSA.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nukem_Hicks:
If any of you critics of what happened have served in Iraq and have dealt with the suicide bombings and terrorist strikes, you are more than welcome to keep the complaints coming. If you haven't experienced this, however, then you have NO right to criticize. I spent a year there as one of those very same grunts you are mocking. It was hell. And when a two-second delay can cost you your life, you shoot first and ask questions later. Anybody without a death wish who had been in the same position as those soldiers would have done the same.

A little side-note: I resent the opinions on this board stating that grunts are mentally-challenged morons. I scored in the 98th percentile on my LSAT, one of the most difficult standardized tests in America. So quit stereotyping. I resent it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Have ALL the respect for you and those who serve in Iraq Nukem_hicks...I would venture to say that most Americans do..and I also find the "monday night quaterbacking" and hindsight dismaying ....I would and could never pretend to understand the stress of combat and its horrors as you have learned them...I do agree that the US serviceman I know are highly intellignet and motivated individuals..thatw what comes from an all volunteer army...as opposed to say Russia...where the army is a very unsafe place.

SDG73
03-07-2005, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
@SDG73
All right point taken.
Yet in this particular discipline we Europeans are absolute Champions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif roger that!

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:

Have ALL the respect for you and those who serve in Iraq Nukem_hicks...I would venture to say that most Americans do..and I also find the "monday night quaterbacking" and hindsight dismaying ....I would and could never pretend to understand the stress of combat and its horrors as you have learned them...I do agree that the US serviceman I know are highly intellignet and motivated individuals..thatw what comes from an all volunteer army...as opposed to say Russia...where the army is a very unsafe place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you. I'm something of a bleeding-heart when it comes to humanitarianism and some of the things over there were enough to make a person sick. At the same time, however, it's been a "relatively" bloodless war in terms of collateral damage. Compared to the firebombings of WWII, the horrors of Vietnam, and the massive shellings of whole cities by the Russians in Chechnya, the Iraqi civilians have come out rather well. Still, any collateral damage is a shame.

Messervy
03-07-2005, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Its not a high opinion of myself..that would be "arrogant"..however...having said that...there is nothing wrong with self confidence..what about having a masters and a doctorate do you consider "a high opinion of one's self" unless you are just intimidated by educated people..I worked very very hard to achieve what I have in life..and that cannot be taken away or diminished you you or others like you who are of your "mind".. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive me for saying this in a very ordinary manner since English is not my language, but it is very obvious that you worked very hard to achive what you had, otherwise you wouldn`t be bragging with it.
Begining an argument with
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry Jester..I've got a masters in it from Notre Dame in Indiana..and before you put down NOtre Dame..or say I didnt learn anything..Im afraid I know much more on it than you do... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...speaks volume to me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 09:10 PM
Nukem..here is something to consider..I once met a collector (german born..late 20's) who lives in the states and collects ONLY Allgemeine (general SS) items...the Allgemeine SS was the political branch of the SS..he had the "balls" to criticize the Americans and British who bombed german towns (he lost some relatives)..here he was collecting the regalia which is most associated with Hitler's germany..and he spits upon the Americans..British and others who "liberated" his fatherland from the scourge of the fascists while at the same time glorifying the very evil which necessitated the bombing of those cities...couldnt ever figure that one out

ps..congrats on the LSAT scores..youshould go to law school..those are awesome scores...just be prepared to put up with those that associate "accomplishments" with arrogance...

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nukem_Hicks:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nukem_Hicks:
..you have NO right to criticize...
I resent the opinions.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No comment . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. You have reached a new low. What's with changing my comments around? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"If any of you critics of what happened have served in Iraq and have dealt with the suicide bombings and terrorist strikes, you are more than welcome to keep the complaints coming. If you haven't experienced this, however, then <span class="ev_code_yellow">you have NO right to criticize.</span> I spent a year there as one of those very same grunts you are mocking. It was hell. And when a two-second delay can cost you your life, you shoot first and ask questions later. Anybody without a death wish who had been in the same position as those soldiers would have done the same.

A little side-note: <span class="ev_code_yellow">I resent the opinions</span> on this board stating that grunts are mentally-challenged morons. I scored in the 98th percentile on my LSAT, one of the most difficult standardized tests in America. So quit stereotyping. I resent it."

_______________________________________________

NOT LIKELY ! !

You'll have to defend your @ssinine remarks some other way.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Its not a high opinion of myself..that would be "arrogant"..however...having said that...there is nothing wrong with self confidence..what about having a masters and a doctorate do you consider "a high opinion of one's self" unless you are just intimidated by educated people..I worked very very hard to achieve what I have in life..and that cannot be taken away or diminished you you or others like you who are of your "mind".. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive me for saying this in a very ordinary manner since English is not my language, but it is very obvious that you worked very hard to achive what you had, otherwise you wouldn`t be bragging with it.
Begining an argument with
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sorry Jester..I've got a masters in it from Notre Dame in Indiana..and before you put down NOtre Dame..or say I didnt learn anything..Im afraid I know much more on it than you do... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...speaks volume to me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Your absolutely right! wasn't very tactful..like your avatars..very cool! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Forbidden1
03-07-2005, 09:13 PM
Bottom line is Europe couldn't solve the Middle East problem, so we will. If you could of, we wouldn't have to. Sounds like the driver was reckless or wanted to be shot at? Some kind of setup maybe? Isn't she is a communist reporter who hates seeing freedom bloom anywhere? Think about it...we have people here in America who hate the fact that Bush was right. Not that freeing the Middle East was wrong but that their party isn't leading the way. And will stop at nothing to denounce everything positive and claim all is negative. That was her job, denouncing freedom. I think it was a plan on the fly, to hurt the growth of freedom...somehow. Anyway I really came on to see if the SH3 manual will match the SH2 manual of 193 pages. Boy did I get sidetracked...

Messervy
03-07-2005, 09:15 PM
You mean Avatar (Top left corner)?
Because in a "signature" field there is hardly anything offensive.

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ingsoc41:
Nukem..here is something to consider..I once met a collector (german born..late 20's) who lives in the states and collects ONLY Allgemeine (general SS) items...the Allgemeine SS was the political branch of the SS..he had the "balls" to criticize the Americans and British who bombed german towns (he lost some relatives)..here he was collecting the regalia which is most associated with Hitler's germany..and he spits upon the Americans..British and others who "liberated" his fatherland from the scourge of the fascists while at the same time glorifying the very evil which necessitated the bombing of those cities...couldnt ever figure that one out

ps..congrats on the LSAT scores..youshould go to law school..those are awesome scores...just be prepared to put up with those that associate "accomplishments" with arrogance... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read that a few weeks ago during the ceremonies remembering those Germans who perished in the firebombings, the German government had to do everything possible to keep the skinheads off of the streets. I guess they came crawling out of the woodwork to protest the firebombings. That's what I call fanaticism, when you ignore your own faults to criticize the very same faults in another.

Thanks for the congrats. I was pretty stoked, but then again I had a year to study, so it was more that than anything.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 09:16 PM
Hauitsme..Nukems remarks are not @ssinine ...you cannot simply lift ...cut and past ones words or text..string them together and begin to say that they represent a person's opinions..thats not fair at all...given the entire context of what Nukem said..(and of course you will have to agree you must consider the entire context...) I believe his comments to be totally valid...ie...if you havn't been there and know the realities of the situation.you dont have a right to criticize..seems very obvious to me

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
You mean Avatar (Top left corner)?
Because in a "signature" field there is hardly anything offensive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not offended by the avatar or signature..Im merely stating.at face value..they are very well done and I nice

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nukem_Hicks:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nukem_Hicks:
..you have NO right to criticize...
I resent the opinions.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No comment . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. You have reached a new low. What's with changing my comments around? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"If any of you critics of what happened have served in Iraq and have dealt with the suicide bombings and terrorist strikes, you are more than welcome to keep the complaints coming. If you haven't experienced this, however, then <span class="ev_code_yellow">you have NO right to criticize.</span> I spent a year there as one of those very same grunts you are mocking. It was hell. And when a two-second delay can cost you your life, you shoot first and ask questions later. Anybody without a death wish who had been in the same position as those soldiers would have done the same.

A little side-note: <span class="ev_code_yellow">I resent the opinions</span> on this board stating that grunts are mentally-challenged morons. I scored in the 98th percentile on my LSAT, one of the most difficult standardized tests in America. So quit stereotyping. I resent it."

_______________________________________________

NOT LIKELY ! !

You'll have to defend your @ssinine remarks some other way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, try this. The first statement was regarding criticism of the job my fellow soldiers are doing, nothing more. I was not saying that all criticism was bad, as you would have seen if you had taken the entire sentence into context. With that out of the way, your quote regarding my second comment is moot.

Anything else? Btw, I can't remember ever talking to you before, so why the blatently hostile remarks? I bear you no ill will.

Messervy
03-07-2005, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Im not offended by the avatar or signature..Im merely stating.at face value..they are very well done and I nice <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank.. you.

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..why the blatently hostile remarks? I bear you no ill will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What 'blatently hostile remarks' would those be?
I would be more concerned about your own power grabbing attitude. To say 'you have NO right to criticize' stands out.
And it isn't the best thing to tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards.

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 09:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..why the blatently hostile remarks? I bear you no ill will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What 'blatently hostile remarks' would those be?
I would be more concerned about your own power grabbing attitude. To say 'you have NO right to criticize' stands out.
And it isn't the best thing to tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well now. Apparently the rumor that you are the rudest person on these boards wasn't completely unfounded.

My statement regarding "no right" is quite normal. Ever heard of "don't bash it until you've tried it?" Same type of thing. Also, you've taken a great liberty by saying that I resent everyone's opinions on these boards. I don't remember everyone bashing GIs. In fact, I only read a few posts saying so.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..why the blatently hostile remarks? I bear you no ill will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What 'blatently hostile remarks' would those be?
I would be more concerned about your own power grabbing attitude. To say 'you have NO right to criticize' stands out.
And it isn't the best thing to tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again....Nukem didnt say he resented the opinion of EVERYONE on the board..he said he resented the opinions and then there were additional words to that sentence..why do you continue to misquote him entirely out of context....it would be like someone saying


I hate to tell you all..but everyone here is going to have to work overtime..

and taking the words "I hate" and "everyone"..leaving out the CONTEXT and saying the sentence acautlly says
"I hate everyone"..
comeone...its patently not right..unfair..and why do you continue to misquote him?

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 09:46 PM
How can it be a 'misquote' if there are <UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>No additions to it <LI>No subtractions from it <LI>No shuffling of words <LI>No misspelling(I didn't write it!) [/list]
So, try again.

Messervy
03-07-2005, 09:49 PM
Nukem_Hicks wrote:
I read that a few weeks ago during the ceremonies remembering those Germans who perished in the firebombings, the German government had to do everything possible to keep the skinheads off of the streets. I guess they came crawling out of the woodwork to protest the firebombings. That's what I call fanaticism, when you ignore your own faults to criticize the very same faults in another.

---------------------------------------------
The problem with German neo-nazis has its origins in unification of Germany.
After decades of Soviet oppression East Germans finaly got to see the West they were longing for for years, only to discover the cruel competitive nature of capitalism.
A nation that has been pounded into a dust, enslaved for half of the century and indoctrinated in virtualy the same manner twice in a single persons lifespan, is bound to show signs of associal behaviour.
After unification the working class never enjoyed a head start of their western counterparts and the gap between rich and poor began to strain the younger generation.
It is only natural that they turned their minds into gloryous past of pre war nazi Germany.
I am not defending their actions, I am merely expresing my opinion.
Question is how to deal with this "fenomena" if you like. You can put the lid on and keep it brewing for some time and hoping that they will sooner or later catch up with the natural course of developement and education, but the safest way is to ensure their prosperity.

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 09:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
How can it be a 'misquote' if there are + No additions to it + No subtractions from it + No shuffling of words + No misspelling(I didn't write it!)
So, try again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I said: "If you haven't experienced this, however, then you have NO right to criticize."

What I said: "I resent the opinions on this board stating that grunts are mentally-challenged morons."

Read the whole sentence. The two are completely unrelated UNLESS YOU READ THE AFOREMENTIONED WORDS ALONE. As you did. Taken in context of the entire sentence, however, it means something entirely different.

Btw, what's with ordering me around?
"tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards."

Get the picture? Good. Now go get an education. Apparently logical comprehension is still beyond you.

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 10:04 PM
Where did I ever 'relate' your statements? WHERE?

Just like me misquoting(which I never did), now I'm 'relating' two totally different things! And since when does 'And it isn't the best thing to tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards' ordering you around?

OMG, where the h*ll are you from? What strange state were you raised?

All I did was directly quote two statements and said 'no comment'. The rest is history in the making.

ingsoc41
03-07-2005, 10:49 PM
I give up...Hauitsme simply does not understand the phrase "out of context" and there is no use trying...pointless.

U-319
03-07-2005, 11:00 PM
Notre Dame. LOL

We all know The University of Alabama has the Greatest College Football Tradition of All! And thats all that really matters! lol

Roll Tide!!!!!

Clemens U-319

blue_76
03-07-2005, 11:04 PM
fighting irish are we? hehe

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ingsoc41:
I give up...
...pointless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ONLY TOO TRUE!!

Don't hit and run, coward.
Answer the initial questions. Stop dodging.

Perhaps you should reread the posts from the start. Maybe you'll finally see it.

Where did I EVER 'change comments around'? You accuse me of misquoting.
Still waiting to find out where my 'blatently hostile remarks' are. They must have been erased w/o leaving a message at the bottom. How did you do that? I didn't change a thing.

Nukem_Hicks
03-07-2005, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE]And since when does 'And it isn't the best thing to tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards' ordering you around?[ENDQUOTE]

Ahh. But you didn't say that. If I twist the sentence in the same fashion that you twisted my words, you actually said "tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards." Now, perhaps you forgot 2nd grade English, but "tell" is a command when it starts a sentence.

As for you relating my two statements, the relation was between the lines as you meant it to be. So don't play dumb.

[QUOTE]OMG, where the h*ll are you from? What strange state were you raised?[ENDQUOTE]

I'm from a state where, for starters, we don't speak in the lingo of 13 yr old girls. I was also raised to believe that, when words fail, fists prevail. The only downside to these forums is that we can't take this out back and show you who the real coward is.

Unfortunately, I have more pressing matters than to teach teenage girls the proper rules of logic and English, so I bid you adieu.

JG27_Arklight
03-07-2005, 11:27 PM
This thread is in dire need of...

Yes, you guessed it.

STORMTROOPER ANTICS!

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/2086/grampstroop0dp.jpg

scourtney2
03-07-2005, 11:28 PM
Just finished reading all the pages! Phew! Not going to bite this political bait either. All I have to say is

Hauitme, you are probably the rudest and most inconsiderate person on this forum. I would recomend you take the route that Nukem_Hicks did and join the military. Maybe you'll learn some respect. At least we wouldn't be able to hear from you for awile.

blue_76
03-07-2005, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
This thread is in dire need of...

Yes, you guessed it.

STORMTROOPER ANTICS!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

search your feelings.. you know it is true!
noooooooooooooooooooooo!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG27_Arklight
03-07-2005, 11:38 PM
Stormtrooper pic kung fu beats Political Thread Debate kung fu.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

hauitsme
03-07-2005, 11:55 PM
My EXACT WORDS, again, as if it has EVER made a difference with you - 'And since when does "And it isn't the best thing to tell everyone you 'resent the opinions' of everyone on these boards" ordering you around?'
The reply: 'Ahh. But you didn't say that.'

How can the words that I write and be printed out for all to see be different on your screen? What does your screen print out? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


My question: 'Where did I ever 'relate' your statements?'
The reply: 'the relation was between the lines as you meant it to be.'

Two seperate quotes merged on your screen? I still see two, always have. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

finchOU
03-08-2005, 12:07 AM
Would you two knock it off! I dont care who the F#$K said what.....end it! Moderators need to get involed with making sure no one posts political leaning posts....where the hell are they? This forum is one of the best I've ever seen to be screwed up by some D!ck head who cant keep his yapper shut about politics!.....leave it be....someplace else....not here!

eddie_wood
03-08-2005, 02:28 AM
Morning!

My, my, this thread has moved on a bit!

Antrodemus
03-08-2005, 03:45 AM
LOL

You're not kiddin' Eddie... I woke up to 102 email notifications this morning, about 95 of which were for this thread alone. I must admit, while the thread should've died or been locked long ago, at least it hasn't devolved into the Neanderthal riot I expected. FTMP anyway... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A.

eddie_wood
03-08-2005, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Antrodemus:
at least it hasn't devolved into the Neanderthal riot I expected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That can be arranged...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

bertgang
03-08-2005, 04:13 AM
The death of Mr. Calipari, a skilled policeman working for intelligence, had a strong emotional impact in Italy.

I believe we can't have a creditable judgement only by first reports from the people involved; of course, both italian agents and american soldiers now are interested in showing opinions and details to say: we was right, they made a mistake.

To know the whole, pure, truth won't be easy.

Jester_159th
03-08-2005, 06:18 AM
Edited post to avoid re-openeing unecessary pointless debate.

Messervy
03-08-2005, 06:53 AM
He allready corrected himself regarding the matter...no need for "coup de grace" now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jester_159th
03-08-2005, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
He allready corrected himself regarding the matter...no need for "coup de grace" now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Messervy. I missed that part. I've removed my last post since seeing this whole mess open up again would be pointless.

My apologies...Just blame it on my evil twin!!

eddie_wood
03-08-2005, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
This thread is in dire need of...
Yes, you guessed it.
STORMTROOPER ANTICS!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't you a little too short for a Stormtrooper? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

eddie_wood
03-08-2005, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jester_159th:
...Just blame it on my evil twin!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A mini-me version of Jester, perish the thought :P

Messervy
03-08-2005, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jester_159th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
He allready corrected himself regarding the matter...no need for "coup de grace" now! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Messervy. I missed that part. I've removed my last post since seeing this whole mess open up again would be pointless.

My apologies...Just blame it on my evil twin!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don`t get me wrong but I like decency and fair play. That way we don`t need to lock any thread and are free to discuss any issue.
Cheers!

Antrodemus
03-08-2005, 07:45 AM
Congrats guys, for bringing this one back from the brink... it looked a certainty for disruption.

A.

Shan_Hackett
03-08-2005, 08:48 AM
I really enjoyed reading this thread. One could publish a phycology thesis with this thread alone.
While i will refrain from expressing my opinions on the subject, I do not understand why some people have an oversion to discussing politics, religen, or sports on gaming forums.

We come here for a single purpose. In the case of this forum, a submarine simulation. It is only natural we will want to cover other topics of interest with the very people we have come to know over the weeks, months, and for some of us, years, at this forum.
While for the most part (On an English forum) we have overcome the language barrior, we still find it hard to overcome the cultural barriors which defines each and everyone of us.
For example; Even for American and British people, we may speak the same language (loosly) but on a nationized scale, we have very different political, social, religious expections, and ideals, and because of complacency in a common understandable language, we also assume the same of our cultures.

The very difference in our cultural diversity makes conversation engaging, and often heated. Which initself is not always a bad thing.
We just have to be mature, and understand that we are quite literaly talking with people from the entire planet, and some leway has to be maintained.

Messervy
03-08-2005, 09:02 AM
Chapeau! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
I`ve just been thinking how close yet so far away from each other we all are.
Had "Scottie beam me up" be around allready we would all have some great time in a pub of our preference!

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 10:02 AM
What did I create here? Thank goodness it's over (I hope), I sure didn't expect such heated replies, I'm sry to everyone who has had to trawl through this topic. If only I had rights to close this topic myself...

PS.Cheers finchOU, I'll try not to be a D!ck head in future http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HansVonLuck21
03-08-2005, 10:34 AM
Well here his my 2 cents..

I served in Iraq during the opening stages of the war, My unit worked closely with elements of the 3rd Infantry Division on numerous occasions. All members of the 3rd ID and all ARMY infantry units are highly trained soldiers and respect all innocent life when on the battlefield. I know for a fact that no one would have fired on the convoy without a good reason. it is proper procedure to try and stop the vechile using hand signs and sometype of road blocks. If they dont stop then warning shots can be fired..then if they still dont stop then the commanding officer or SGT. will give orders to open fire..I know for a fact that they would not have opened fire witout anytype of warning or trying to stop the truck first.

secondly that Italian reporter writes for a Communist newspapers "Il manifesto" so it is no suprise to me that she is trying to make false claimes towards U.S. troops.

Now belive me I was there and I have to go back to Iraq it looks like soon with my Reserve unit, and NO U.S. TROOPS WILL FIRE ON A CIVILIAN WITHOUT A GOOD REASON!

now I am sorry to see that the Italian secret service officer was killed..it's truely a shame but i just think people should not make claims towards U.S. soldiers when they dont even know what relly happened or any solider for any nation for that matter

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 10:51 AM
btw, I notice a lot of people are calling communism here. But why exactly? I have no quarrel with communism, if we start calling communism, then what about capitalism?

I know communism has been related heavyily with Soviets, but the concept if it works well benefits everyone. Its a shame it doesnt usually work, but we can't call communism. They can simply refer to us as greedy.

I don't think differently of anyone if they are different from me. It's a shame ppl are prejudiced against communists and vice versa

PS. Worded this very carefully.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
NO U.S. TROOPS WILL FIRE ON A CIVILIAN WITHOUT A GOOD REASON! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've recently seen a Frontline documentary that showed US soldiers firing on a civilian truck, which was 200 yards away. How they could have 'good reason' to fire on a truck that far away is questionable. In the same documentary, I saw a US soldier shoot a dog that was doing no one any harm and was threatening no one. His fellow soldiers said on camera that there was no need to shoot that dog. If you think that troops (US or foreign) won't fire on civilians (or even harmless animals) without good reason, you're fooling yourself. Maybe you wouldn't; maybe your friends wouldn't; but there are those who would.

Sir-Tiedeman
03-08-2005, 11:25 AM
The soldiers down there are probably all scared like ****!



Heck, I would shoot at anything moving within a 1000 metres if i was there.



Everybody probably just wants to get home as fast as possible.
I know i would.



Salute! To anyone out there, serving their nation, watever it might be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

egoslayer
03-08-2005, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
This is a forum for Silent Hunter III. As far as I'm concerned discussions here should be limited to SHIII and perhaps subs in general. If you want to post your little political tirade, that's fine, but here's not the place to do it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi necrobaron
I totally agree with you this is not the place to air political views, it's a SH3 forum their are forums world wide where he could air his views. I don't want to get in too deep here, as he could start off world war 3 in these forums. We are all United & looking forward to SH3, we don't need a downer like this! So thanks for your personal view U-551 Kapitan, but NO thanks, I am leaving political views strictly out of these forums. Cheers egoslayer

HeibgesU999
03-08-2005, 11:49 AM
It really is hard to blame the soldiers. They are a bunch of kids who are scared senseless. The officers have to accept responsibility, but they are in most cases not much older than their men.

The Draftdodgers currently occupy the Whitehouse you can blame. Bush and Cheney trying to make up for the cowardice of their youth, with the blood of other peoples children is disgusting.

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
This is a forum for Silent Hunter III. As far as I'm concerned discussions here should be limited to SHIII and perhaps subs in general. If you want to post your little political tirade, that's fine, but here's not the place to do it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree that it's best to keep politics off these forums, but you don't do it by labelling someone's heartfelt posts "little political tirades". Such emotive language is not helpful or persuasive. A simple request would have done nicely, but you give away your own political viewpoint with such displays of obvious disgust. If you don't want a political discussion, it's probably best if you aren't seen to be taking sides in one.

KnucklesWhite
03-08-2005, 12:03 PM
€œThe moment a person forms a theory, his imagination sees, in every object, only the traits that favor that theory.€

I think this quote fits with many of the opinions being expressed here........

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
It really is hard to blame the soldiers. They are a bunch of kids who are scared senseless. The officers have to accept responsibility, but they are in most cases not much older than their men.

The Draftdodgers currently occupy the Whitehouse you can blame. Bush and Cheney trying to make up for the cowardice of their youth, with the blood of other peoples children is disgusting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly true. Agree with you completely. Just the majority of soldiers are shown up by the few idiots.
I disagreed with the war completely, but once our troops were on their way, we had to respect them. I have never forgiven our governments for what they did.
Whatever happened to Splendid Isolation? I think right now, that would be the best option. There are few problems with the Middle East, and our intervention simply makes matters worse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

U-319
03-08-2005, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
NO U.S. TROOPS WILL FIRE ON A CIVILIAN WITHOUT A GOOD REASON! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've recently seen a Frontline documentary that showed US soldiers firing on a civilian truck, which was 200 yards away. How they could have 'good reason' to fire on a truck that far away is questionable. In the same documentary, I saw a US soldier shoot a dog that was doing no one any harm and was threatening no one. His fellow soldiers said on camera that there was no need to shoot that dog. If you think that troops (US or foreign) won't fire on civilians (or even harmless animals) without good reason, you're fooling yourself. Maybe you wouldn't; maybe your friends wouldn't; but there are those who would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I watched the same Doc. The Guy who shot the Dog was a Doctor, who wanted to go on patrol with the troops(i figure he wanted to write himself up for a medal, anyways He was a REMF). If you watched closely the ground troops were very upset, that he was allowed to be there and do that. As for them shooting up the car, they did fire warning shots.

Mashiki_a
03-08-2005, 02:20 PM
Right. I don't care about the political **** by any means right now. She says 300-400 bullets? I call her a liar. Many papers and reports say the same thing.

http://www.repubblica.it/index.html Republica.it says this is HER car.

HansVonLuck21
03-08-2005, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
It really is hard to blame the soldiers. They are a bunch of kids who are scared senseless. The officers have to accept responsibility, but they are in most cases not much older than their men.

The Draftdodgers currently occupy the Whitehouse you can blame. Bush and Cheney trying to make up for the cowardice of their youth, with the blood of other peoples children is disgusting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly true. Agree with you completely. Just the majority of soldiers are shown up by the few idiots.
I disagreed with the war completely, but once our troops were on their way, we had to respect them. I have never forgiven our governments for what they did.
Whatever happened to Splendid Isolation? I think right now, that would be the best option. There are few problems with the Middle East, and our intervention simply makes matters worse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is typical talk from Euros about American politics. Bush and Cheney are not draft dodgers and there is no evidence to even support such a lunatic claim.
You say our intervention in the middle east makes matters worst?? Freeing millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan from brutal governments does not seem like making matters worse. Thousands of kids can now learn freely in schools, their whole life standard is now much greater...The people over there are greatful and aknowledge this for the most part..so if you think it makes matters worse you are living in a dream world my frined.. I was over there first hand and saw many Iraqi citiznes come up to us troops hugging and thanking us with tears in thier eyes..
I am proud that we could give such people better life and make their future brighter..
SO yes I think Bush and Cheney did the right thing!
I am glad I was over there and would put my life on the line again for freedom and to grant others the same right I enjoy in america

HeibgesU999
03-08-2005, 02:26 PM
My friend was an infantry platoon leader with the 10th Mountain in Somalia. They were on patrol one day, and his orders were that any firing to the front of his position would be hostile.

His lead squad spotted some firing coming from the vicinity of this truck, but they were pretty far away so it was hard to identify. Just as they were about to call a fire mission on it, someone realized it was a Hummer.

Apparently, the idiot Battalion Commander, XO and S-2, were out looking for someone to shoot, and gotten a little lost.

HansVonLuck21
03-08-2005, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
NO U.S. TROOPS WILL FIRE ON A CIVILIAN WITHOUT A GOOD REASON! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've recently seen a Frontline documentary that showed US soldiers firing on a civilian truck, which was 200 yards away. How they could have 'good reason' to fire on a truck that far away is questionable. In the same documentary, I saw a US soldier shoot a dog that was doing no one any harm and was threatening no one. His fellow soldiers said on camera that there was no need to shoot that dog. If you think that troops (US or foreign) won't fire on civilians (or even harmless animals) without good reason, you're fooling yourself. Maybe you wouldn't; maybe your friends wouldn't; but there are those who would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firing on a animal is wrong, Has it been done? yes, but it is wrong.. Things like that happen in war for soliders in all contries.
However when talking about humans that is completly different. I will say it again NO U.S. soldier will fire on any civillian without a good reason. We are trained in the matter before we even get deployed. We simply just dont go there and expect all civilians to be friendly and not be hostile..But yet at the same time we also have to make sure before we take action.
Reguardless of what documentary you might have seen or what you have heard we are not tired scared young boys.. We are highly trained for matters such as these and if action was taken on any civilians it was for a good reason..

Now could mistakes be made or bad decisions? Yes they can I am not ruling that out. Us soldiers are only human like you..
However no civilians would ever be harmed for fun or pleasure.. We would get in serious trouble if anything like that ever happened..

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
It really is hard to blame the soldiers. They are a bunch of kids who are scared senseless. The officers have to accept responsibility, but they are in most cases not much older than their men.

The Draftdodgers currently occupy the Whitehouse you can blame. Bush and Cheney trying to make up for the cowardice of their youth, with the blood of other peoples children is disgusting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly true. Agree with you completely. Just the majority of soldiers are shown up by the few idiots.
I disagreed with the war completely, but once our troops were on their way, we had to respect them. I have never forgiven our governments for what they did.
Whatever happened to Splendid Isolation? I think right now, that would be the best option. There are few problems with the Middle East, and our intervention simply makes matters worse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is typical talk from Euros about American politics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I'm getting stereotyped against because I stereotyped the American politics? This is typical talk from Americans about Europeans.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
Bush and Cheney are not draft dodgers and there is no evidence to even support such a lunatic claim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kerry picked up on the fact Bush dodged the army during Vietnam.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
You say our intervention in the middle east makes matters worst?? Freeing millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan from brutal governments does not seem like making matters worse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What propaganda are they feeding you? Our intervention has caused a lot of suffereing. I'm not getting into an argument as to what is better, Saddam or us.
The fact of the matter is we are an occupation force. Yes we should have taken down Saddam, but we should already be out of there. Soldiers stationed somewhere like Iraq can get bored when there's no action. And bored soldiers with guns is a bad idea, no matter which country they come from.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
I am glad I was over there and would put my life on the line again for freedom and to grant others the same right I enjoy in america <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much patriotism, admirable, but IMO misplaced.

PS Cheers for nicking my sig.

KnucklesWhite
03-08-2005, 02:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kerry picked up on the fact Bush dodged the army during Vietnam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow....see my last above post please.

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
I will say it again NO U.S. soldier will fire on any civillian without a good reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
then how do you explain all the casualties?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
Now could mistakes be made or bad decisions? Yes they can I am not ruling that out. Us soldiers are only human like you..
However no civilians would ever be harmed for fun or pleasure.. We would get in serious trouble if anything like that ever happened.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd never even think civillians would be harmed for pleasure, it's too sadistic for Americans. It's just accidents by the FEW incompetant rednecks.

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cheapshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kerry picked up on the fact Bush dodged the army during Vietnam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow....see my last above post please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying Kerry was great either, he had problems in Vietnam as well. Should've got Nader in, but then again I know little bout him.

HeibgesU999
03-08-2005, 02:52 PM
Can you say Lieutenant Calley? Won't hurt civilians? Say What?

Mjollnir111675
03-08-2005, 02:54 PM
Hollars to everyone else in the forum:


"THIS HERE IS A PRE-RELEASE ANGST SAUSAGE FEST!!"

C'mon guys give it a rest.

KnucklesWhite
03-08-2005, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cheapshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kerry picked up on the fact Bush dodged the army during Vietnam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow....see my last above post please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying Kerry was great either, he had problems in Vietnam as well. Should've got Nader in, but then again I know little bout him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regardless of Kerry or Nader, here is the problem with your whole thought on this......



Bush didn't dodge the Army.

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 02:59 PM
He didn't? What was that all about then?

KnucklesWhite
03-08-2005, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
He didn't? What was that all about then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Typical American Political B.S. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

U-551 Kapitan
03-08-2005, 03:03 PM
Why can't we just manage to vote the 3rd parties in? We might as well give them a chance. You guys go for urrr Nader party, we'll go for Lib Dems.

KnucklesWhite
03-08-2005, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
You guys go for urrr Nader party, we'll go for Lib Dems. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I couldn't do that with a clear conscience....I'm a Constitutionalist. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
03-08-2005, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
Can you say Lieutenant Calley? Won't hurt civilians? Say What? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.

SDG73
03-08-2005, 05:06 PM
Ahmen to that HansVonLuck21!Its really hard for the ones who dont understand to have clue and if they dont have a clue its pointless to explain. Goodluck to you on your next deployment.

Dominicrigg
03-08-2005, 05:43 PM
Well done HansVonLuck21 and the others who have fought in Iraq to give those people freedom and make a difference in the middle east. I think in our lifetimes we will see the start of a democratic arabic region thanks to this step by coalition forces.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HansVonLuck21
03-08-2005, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
It really is hard to blame the soldiers. They are a bunch of kids who are scared senseless. The officers have to accept responsibility, but they are in most cases not much older than their men.

The Draftdodgers currently occupy the Whitehouse you can blame. Bush and Cheney trying to make up for the cowardice of their youth, with the blood of other peoples children is disgusting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly true. Agree with you completely. Just the majority of soldiers are shown up by the few idiots.
I disagreed with the war completely, but once our troops were on their way, we had to respect them. I have never forgiven our governments for what they did.
Whatever happened to Splendid Isolation? I think right now, that would be the best option. There are few problems with the Middle East, and our intervention simply makes matters worse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is typical talk from Euros about American politics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I'm getting stereotyped against because I stereotyped the American politics? This is typical talk from Americans about Europeans.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
Bush and Cheney are not draft dodgers and there is no evidence to even support such a lunatic claim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kerry picked up on the fact Bush dodged the army during Vietnam.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
You say our intervention in the middle east makes matters worst?? Freeing millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan from brutal governments does not seem like making matters worse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What propaganda are they feeding you? Our intervention has caused a lot of suffereing. I'm not getting into an argument as to what is better, Saddam or us.
The fact of the matter is we are an occupation force. Yes we should have taken down Saddam, but we should already be out of there. Soldiers stationed somewhere like Iraq can get bored when there's no action. And bored soldiers with guns is a bad idea, no matter which country they come from.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
I am glad I was over there and would put my life on the line again for freedom and to grant others the same right I enjoy in america <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much patriotism, admirable, but IMO misplaced.

PS Cheers for nicking my sig. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sterotyping all Europeans, just ones like you that make false claims or post half led facts about american politics.. Just because you hear something on your news or TV about America does not mean it's always true or all the facts are in front of you.. Why do I know this?? Becuase I am Russian and lived in Russia for sometime before I moved to the States while back.. So I know what European news reports and its not always the whole truth.

Yes!! Kerry would say something like that he was trying to Beat Bush for the presidency! Not a hard one to figure out..

You call my patriotism midplaced?? hahaha Sir you dont know how deep my patriotism goes for my country that I live in now.. I pity you for even trying to judge others patriotism for whatever the cause..

Lastly I did not steal your sig.. I was wondering on the same sight you were most likely and found that picture. I did not even see any of your post untill now..Look at my join date for goodness sakes!
but for good show I'll change my sig soon, since you had yours first

JG27_Arklight
03-08-2005, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kerry picked up on the fact Bush dodged the army during Vietnam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you don't mean the "documents uncovered by CBS" which turned out to be false...at which time Dan Rather and CBS had to apologize.

Hmmm, dodging the draft by joining the Air National Gaurd as a fighter pilot in an F-106 squadron that was up for rotation to Vietnam. Wow, what a way to "dodge" the draft. LOL


2 cheers for misguidance..

Hip Hip Hooray!

Hip Hip Hooray!


Good times.

JG27_Arklight
03-08-2005, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
He didn't? What was that all about then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Accusations from the left which ended up being a big mistake. More then likely to take heat off of the accusations agaisnt Kerry and his short Vietnam career and all the **** that went along with it.


This is one of the reasons I am not particularly fond of these threads. Here, we have a ton of different people from various countries each with their own opinions. Unfortunately, those opinions are usually based around what they see on T.V. and nothing more.

archer49d
03-08-2005, 06:53 PM
After all Kerry is the guy who came back from Vietnam and painted an image of American soldiers being a bunch of Sadists... That's the guy who DOESN'T get invited to the reunions.

bertgang
03-09-2005, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
secondly that Italian reporter writes for a Communist newspapers "Il manifesto" so it is no suprise to me that she is trying to make false claimes towards U.S. troops.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True for the reporter, but not for the agents.
They work for italian gouvernment, ruled by Mr. Berlusconi, a strongly anti-communist chairman.

The italian intelligence roughly reports: we was running at slow speed, when suddendly we were enlighted and shelled without warning.

The sad truth is that everybody, on both sides, has interest in telling: not our mistake.

HansVonLuck21
03-09-2005, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is one of the reasons I am not particularly fond of these threads. Here, we have a ton of different people from various countries each with their own opinions. Unfortunately, those opinions are usually based around what they see on T.V. and nothing more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

very true, I think a post like this was in bad taste for a forum such as this even if it was labled OT

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>True for the reporter, but not for the agents.
They work for italian gouvernment, ruled by Mr. Berlusconi, a strongly anti-communist chairman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

very true, it's sad that they were killed and the italian agent put his life on the line to save anothers, very heroic thing. I just think that the Italian reporter is over stating what really happened for her own political gains.
I think it will take sometime to figure out what really happened if at all.

U-551 Kapitan
03-09-2005, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
I am not sterotyping all Europeans, just ones like you that make false claims or post half led facts about american politics.. Just because you hear something on your news or TV about America does not mean it's always true or all the facts are in front of you.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I'm saying about what is happening over on your side of the pond. American news doesn't not focus on the international side of things and usually keeps it's stories domestic. That is why you don't get the whole picture when concerning middle eastern affairs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
You call my patriotism misplaced?? hahaha Sir you dont know how deep my patriotism goes for my country that I live in now.. I pity you for even trying to judge others patriotism for whatever the cause.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO, a true patriot is someone who wishes for the welfare of their country. And I don't think the current US government is going to do that by making enemies in the middle east as they get their hands dirty. This war has possibly been a preventative war, in which America is trying to win wars in the middle east in order to make new allies. But I respect your views on patriotism, and I won't slander them. But my views are as above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
Lastly I did not steal your sig.. I was wondering on the same sight you were most likely and found that picture. I did not even see any of your post untill now..Look at my join date for goodness sakes!
but for good show I'll change my sig soon, since you had yours first <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fair enough, I searched for ages through google for a small enough and decent enough pic. TY.

U-551 Kapitan
03-09-2005, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This is one of the reasons I am not particularly fond of these threads. Here, we have a ton of different people from various countries each with their own opinions. Unfortunately, those opinions are usually based around what they see on T.V. and nothing more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

very true, I think a post like this was in bad taste for a forum such as this even if it was labled OT

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>True for the reporter, but not for the agents.
They work for italian gouvernment, ruled by Mr. Berlusconi, a strongly anti-communist chairman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

very true, it's sad that they were killed and the italian agent put his life on the line to save anothers, very heroic thing. I just think that the Italian reporter is over stating what really happened for her own political gains.
I think it will take sometime to figure out what really happened if at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it's bad taste to bring such a matter to your attention. It's a healthy discussion, a change from the usual SH3 topics. People are debating fairly (thank goodness it hasn't resorted to name calling), and this is constructive.

The reporter wasn't the only person in the car, there was also the driver and other Italians (not part of communists if it helps) who agree that the car was not speeding or acting hostile.

Charlie901
03-09-2005, 12:31 PM
And to think I predicted nothing good would ever come of this post..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I hate being so right!

TheFastFreddie
03-09-2005, 10:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
NO U.S. TROOPS WILL FIRE ON A CIVILIAN WITHOUT A GOOD REASON! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've recently seen a Frontline documentary that showed US soldiers firing on a civilian truck, which was 200 yards away. How they could have 'good reason' to fire on a truck that far away is questionable. In the same documentary, I saw a US soldier shoot a dog that was doing no one any harm and was threatening no one. His fellow soldiers said on camera that there was no need to shoot that dog. If you think that troops (US or foreign) won't fire on civilians (or even harmless animals) without good reason, you're fooling yourself. Maybe you wouldn't; maybe your friends wouldn't; but there are those who would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I watched the documentary also but you failed to mention that the vehicle came over a hill and accelerated once it saw the American roadblock. They fired several warning shot before firing directly at the vehicle. It then stopped and left the area. You would be amazed at the damage a 500lb bomb rigged in your car can do and this is why they have to be very aggressive. The dog shooting incident was very bad and I can assure you that soldier heard about it. Whether it was from an officer or fellow soldiers those types of things make no one happy and they will make it very clear that its not acceptable. I'm a former soldier and did the exact same job as those soldiers in that documentary. No one can tell you how hard it is to do but them.

The accident with the Italian Agent getting shot is very unfortuate but I can assure you that it wasn't a targeted shooting. I makes much more sense to assume that someone that was just released by terrorists would be hauling *** to get out of there and failed to yield at a checkpoint. Why would anyone be driving slow when released from several weeks of captivity in a hostile area? How are US troops surposed to recognize a random car that is moving and identify the passengers as Italians when it fails to yield?

blue_76
03-09-2005, 11:00 PM
reading the headlines.. i can sense much anger towards the US over that incident.. it was just a few years ago.. i think 1998 that a us jet tripped a wire of a lift that killed 20 people in italy.. and this incident just added to their frustrations.

BobV_07
03-10-2005, 03:15 AM
Nothing like a good thread to stir up more anti-American sentiment. No proof either way and yet the world some how for some strange reason thinks we(all of America from the president all the way down to the homeless guy down the road) are the bad nasty villains of the world! What a buntch of magot infested rat vomit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif



http://www.eaglestock.com/graphics/patriot-eagle/strengthhonor.jpg

JG27_Arklight
03-10-2005, 03:22 AM
This thread is as long as it is lame.

More junk to create animosity.

Yay for lame craptactular threads.

U-551 Kapitan
03-10-2005, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobV_07:
Nothing like a good thread to stir up more anti-American sentiment. No proof either way and yet the world some how for some strange reason thinks we(all of America from the president all the way down to the homeless guy down the road) are the bad nasty villains of the world! What a buntch of magot infested rat vomit! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We aren't going against all Americans!!! I've said countless times here it only applies to the government! I haven't gone into any detail about the average American who definately has no say in the matter.
I have a lot of respect for Americans, but why do you guys always take it personally when someone mentions your government. I in no way blame the public, or the soldiers (the majority just have a job to do, and want to get back home). Media, well that's bad in every country, so... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. The government is in the wrong, not the people.

@JG27_Arklight,
This thread is just a discussion upon the usefulness of US intervention in Iraq. As I mention, I don't wish to offend Americns, and from what I have posted, I couldn't have done so. There are MUCH worse threads out there than this. For the most part, we have acted sensibly on the topic. A healthy debate is not 'lame'.

ingsoc41
03-10-2005, 09:48 AM
Wernt those responsible for the killing of the Italians (and possibly others) in the ski lift prosecuted by military court and some held accountable for what amounts to voluntary or involuntary manslaughter? I thought at least one was convicted and maybe several others discharged? I could be wrong.

finchOU
03-10-2005, 10:07 AM
Uncharted...thats all i have to say about that!

BobV_07
03-10-2005, 11:16 AM
I find your opening statement to be very much so both bias and anti-American. In your statement you have passed jugement on the American soldiers with no proof what so ever and you have sided with the Italian Journalist. Please tell me, dose anybody know of a honest Journalist? Do they exist?

U-551 Kapitan, I have said it before and I will say it again. I like you and I consider you a forum buddy. I'm glad that you are here and a part of this forum! But I don't like this thread at all and as an American I find it offensive! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


http://adjunct.diodon349.com/photopoint/0037/0046.jpg

HansVonLuck21
03-10-2005, 11:32 AM
You say our govt. is wrong and that you dont agree with them? So many other people in the world say that they dont like the U.S. govt. but like the average person..

I think that is totally absurd.. I mean inall honestly you cant say you know what my govt. does everyday or how it acts towards every issue. Just like I have no idea how the italian govt. acts towards every issue. Just beacuse a govt does something you dont agree with does not make them horrible.

Take for instance I dont agree with many things France and Germany do in the world community. I feel that they could do more to work with America. However I also know that they are looking out for their own citizens and are reaching for their own goals just like us. Ive been to both those countries..Great people and great govt. So even though I disagree with many of thier issues I dont think their govt, is completely wrong in the world community.

You have to look at all the other good things that America does with your country and in the world community. I know you can think of a million things but you only post about that bad. which I think is unfair to us. That is why I dont hold a govt. responsible for all instances, because I know Italy does many good things and to post only the bad would be unfair to you to.

JohnMalcolm1970
03-10-2005, 12:32 PM
From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20088-2005Mar9?language=printer) (which I'm pretty sure isn't an Italian communist newspaper)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Fini, citing testimony by the driver, also an intelligence officer, said Tuesday that the car was traveling at no more than 25 mph as the driver steered around concrete blocks. Fini said the driver was applying the brakes when the car was hit by gunfire that lasted 10 to 15 seconds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

U-551 Kapitan
03-10-2005, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobV_07:
I find your opening statement to be very much so both bias and anti-American. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After I edited it? I'll check it out again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobV_07:
In your statement you have passed jugement on the American soldiers with no proof whatsover and you have sided with the Italian Journalist. Please tell me, dose anybody know of a honest Journalist? Do they exist? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, many people have posted extracts from news articles upon the event, always a chance of bias, but more than one article agrees. Also, if I've passed judgement on US soldiers without prood, then you certainly have on journalists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobV_07:
But I don't like this thread at all and as an American I find it offensive! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really sorry bout that, but I am yet see what is offensive. I'm not having a go at you or the soldiers, and you have a right to put forward your opinions. I just don't see how my own opinions upon American government are offensive, since they in no way relate to the American people.

Shady1234
03-10-2005, 02:57 PM
HansVonLuck21, I would like you to post all the good things that the American government does in the world. Then I invite everyone to post what they do wrong in the world, i'm sure i know who will be outnumbered.

I'll start the wrong side off:

The Iraq war.

Messervy
03-10-2005, 02:59 PM
I strongly advise you to stop! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BoneDaddy1844
03-10-2005, 05:51 PM
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay8.jpg

JG27_Arklight
03-10-2005, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>@JG27_Arklight,
This thread is just a discussion upon the usefulness of US intervention in Iraq. As I mention, I don't wish to offend Americns, and from what I have posted, I couldn't have done so. There are MUCH worse threads out there than this. For the most part, we have acted sensibly on the topic. A healthy debate is not 'lame'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"A healthy debate"......Where?

It is all speculation and finger pointing.

A debate requires two sides presenting a reasonable arguement. There is no reasonable arguement w/o ANY facts.

What it is going on here is a public display of misguidance, speculation, and rhetoric.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Kapitan, I have nothing against you at all, but threads like this always go south.

JG27_Arklight
03-10-2005, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BoneDaddy1844:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/gay8.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

WWIIOL!

The good ol' days.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
03-10-2005, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheFastFreddie:
I watched the documentary also but you failed to mention that the vehicle came over a hill and accelerated once it saw the American roadblock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I failed to mention it because the documentary didn't show it. How anyone could have seen a truck 'accelerating' at that distance and head-on to the soldiers is a mystery to me. Heck, the truck was at least 200 yards away, and perhaps it was more like 300 or 400. To judge acceleration you have to be off to the side, and that truck was directly in line with the soldiers. It was a long way off and the angle wasn't good for judging acceleration. It certainly didn't look threatening to me.

HansVonLuck21
03-10-2005, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shady1234:
HansVonLuck21, I would like you to post all the good things that the American government does in the world. Then I invite everyone to post what they do wrong in the world, i'm sure i know who will be outnumbered.

I'll start the wrong side off:

The Iraq war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG dont even get me started. Well for one millions of people accross the world including citizens in Iraq dont think the war was wrong..so explain this to me please..

And well lets see if I remember correctly America helped many countires in Europe Defeat the axis powers in WW2 and WW1 and liberate many countires, I think that should be enough.

I challenge all of you to come and visit America or live in it for sometime, I bet many of your views will change. Before I moved to America I use to think the same way you all do towards her when I lived in russia. That was during the cold war period so you can imagine how negative my thoughts were for the most part. However after I moved to America I soon found out that everything is quite different..

Messervy
03-10-2005, 06:46 PM
Now I think you need to move for the third time to find equilibrium! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
03-10-2005, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
I challenge all of you to come and visit America or live in it for sometime, I bet many of your views will change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've lived in the US since 1989. If anything, my views on US foreign policy have become even MORE cynical. While it's true that people here get a very pro-US propagandized version of world affairs, it doesn't mean that we have to swallow it without testing its veracity.

TheFastFreddie
03-10-2005, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheFastFreddie:
I watched the documentary also but you failed to mention that the vehicle came over a hill and accelerated once it saw the American roadblock. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I failed to mention it because the documentary didn't show it. How anyone could have seen a truck 'accelerating' at that distance and head-on to the soldiers is a mystery to me. Heck, the truck was at least 200 yards away, and perhaps it was more like 300 or 400. To judge acceleration you have to be off to the side, and that truck was directly in line with the soldiers. It was a long way off and the angle wasn't good for judging acceleration. It certainly didn't look threatening to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to watch it again and listen. The vehicle clearly speeds up and if you listen you will hear the engine come to a roar as he floors it. Off couse nothing is threatening when your watching it on TV and don't have to worry about suicide bombers.

BONFLECK
03-10-2005, 09:36 PM
I was going to piss away some time reading this thead, but I get the jist of it from the get go. I may not be pro Bush as he is the worst example of conservative I've ever seen, but I'm definetly Anti-Anti-American. So all of you who have a problem with Americans can go eat a ****!
Keep on smiling at that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HeibgesU999
03-10-2005, 09:59 PM
And anything America might have done, is only because we are imitating our European forefathers. A sins of the father, sins of the sons type of deal.

Did not England keep China addicted to Heroine for 150 years?
And remember that form of government that the English and Dutch settlers kept in place in South Africa?
The French in Vietnam?
The French in Algeria?
The French in Lebanon?
The Belgian Congo?
The East India Tea Company?
De Beers Diamond Corporation?
Union Carbide?
Hugh "The Great" O'Neal?
The Dreyfus Affair?
The KGB?
The War of 1812?
The American Revolution?
The Cathar Crusade?

U-551 Kapitan
03-11-2005, 12:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
And well lets see if I remember correctly America helped many countires in Europe Defeat the axis powers in WW2 and WW1 and liberate many countires, I think that should be enough. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You helped a lot, and your intervention ended the war quicker than it would have done. But really we could have done it alone, especially with Russia on our side. A two front war is a winner in every situation.

@all the anti-anti-americans,
I'm not anti-american! READ my posts before commenting.

HansVonLuck21
03-11-2005, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansVonLuck21:
And well lets see if I remember correctly America helped many countires in Europe Defeat the axis powers in WW2 and WW1 and liberate many countires, I think that should be enough. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You helped a lot, and your intervention ended the war quicker than it would have done. But really we could have done it alone, especially with Russia on our side. A two front war is a winner in every situation.

@all the anti-anti-americans,
I'm not anti-american! READ my posts before commenting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont know about that mate..Without America there would have been no D-day in 1944..There would have simply been no man power. The germans would have kept ton of forces on the eastern front that should have been in France or in Italy. Also there would have been no invasion of Sicily.
I am not one to say re write history but I dont think my mother Russia alone would have cleared all of Europe from Germany if at all.

U-551 Kapitan
03-11-2005, 08:58 AM
Shady, care to reply? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bertgang
03-11-2005, 09:10 AM
Well, isn't easy at all to say what Russia could have been able to do alone.
I suspect that, after 1943, the Red Army was strong enough to win the war, on the long run (maybe two years later); but, of course, world's history should have been very different.

Anyway, political and historical speculations have little to do with the death of Mr. Calipari in Iraq.
The only relevant question is about the true reasons of a sad episode of "friendly fire" between allied.

U-551 Kapitan
03-11-2005, 09:16 AM
One thing I noticed is very few ppl have given their condolences to Mr Calipari's family and friends. What's with that? We'd rather vehemently argue about the subject of politics. How about a few condolences?

BaldieJr
03-11-2005, 09:52 AM
So is it normal for Italy to send high-ranking intelligence officers to foriegn nations to purchase the freedom of known communists?

I ask because i'm not familiar with Italy in any way. I know that they eat lots of spaghetti and have the mafia to keep them busy, but thats the extent of my italian understanding.

Messervy
03-11-2005, 09:54 AM
Good. Let`s keep it that way! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Dominicrigg
03-11-2005, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
Good. Let`s keep it that way! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lmao ignorance is bliss!

Pr0metheus 1962
03-11-2005, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
And anything America might have done, is only because we are imitating our European forefathers. A sins of the father, sins of the sons type of deal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sort of logic would justify the worst criminal behaviour in history. Are you really saying that mass genocide would be A-okay if it was done by the US, simply because it's been done before in Europe?

BoneDaddy1844
03-11-2005, 05:20 PM
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc5.jpg

Jester_159th
03-11-2005, 05:22 PM
Sweet Jesus. Will this thing never die????

BoneDaddy1844
03-11-2005, 05:34 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

blue_76
03-11-2005, 11:43 PM
haha if u can't beat them, join them! its time we all join the italian mafia!

http://gangstaname.com/mafia_name.php

Mashiki_a
03-12-2005, 01:34 AM
Note to those that want this thread to die, if you don't like it...ignore it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
That sort of logic would justify the worst criminal behaviour in history. Are you really saying that mass genocide would be A-okay if it was done by the US, simply because it's been done before in Europe? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yet America hasn't followed that path, yet the European colonies have. I find that to be...interesting...

You say that you've lived in the US since '89...so you've lived through Elder Bush(learned groupie of downsizing and appeasement), Clinton(master of downsizing and appeasement), and now Bush Jr. who does what he says and means what he said. That's a pretty radical change from the last 10 years, especially with a foreign affairs dept. that's the lick spittle of terrorists and appeasers.

Not to mention the FBI and CIA who have spent the last 35 years treating terrorism as a 'criminal' issue. I could go on, but I don't see much of a point.

JG27_Arklight
03-12-2005, 01:40 AM
It's pretty sad when a thread like this has the 2nd highest number of responses in a sub simulator forum.

lol

Messervy
03-12-2005, 01:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
It's pretty sad when a thread like this has the 2nd highest number of responses in a sub simulator forum.

lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just to add one more....That`s the way it is, nowadays!

JG27_Arklight
03-12-2005, 01:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Messervy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_Arklight:
It's pretty sad when a thread like this has the 2nd highest number of responses in a sub simulator forum.

lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just to add one more....That`s the way it is, nowadays! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep.

Unfortunately.

As we both bump the thread. lol

Pr0metheus 1962
03-12-2005, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mashiki_a:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
That sort of logic would justify the worst criminal behaviour in history. Are you really saying that mass genocide would be A-okay if it was done by the US, simply because it's been done before in Europe? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yet America hasn't followed that path, yet the European colonies have. I find that to be...interesting... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. None so blind as those who won't see.

Have you not heard of the American Indians. Heck, the US made an art form out of genocide. They didn't just eradicate one racial group from part of a continent. They all but eradicated a continent's entire population.

But then again, that's not so bad, is it. I mean I guess it was done in the cause of freedom, and they were savages.

EFileTahi-A
03-12-2005, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
And anything America might have done, is only because we are imitating our European forefathers. A sins of the father, sins of the sons type of deal.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the most (...) explanation that I have ever heard. Am not shocked thought (go figure)...

When someone excuse's his errors with someone else's mistakes typically means one thing: lack of arguments. Yet, by your words, I guess then Americans don't actually think before acting, nor have the capability to distiguish what is right and wrong.

"ATTENTION ALL EARTHLINGS!
From now on everyone is allowed to kill and comit all kinds of atrocities that have been done in the pass. Let's re-open auschwitz (not free of charge thought) and drop some atomic bombs randomly all over the world..."

What do you think of this on the front page of a newspaper? Am sure HeibgesU999, that ppl who shares your thoughs would emmidiately start saving monney to buy some nuke to drop it somewhere in the world. This would definetaly make a better world for ppl to live in...

There are stupid and smart ppl everywhere around the world (regardless the country) as, gladly, not all americans think like you...

EFileTahi-A
03-12-2005, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mashiki_a:
Yet America hasn't followed that path, yet the European colonies have. I find that to be...interesting...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Bless ignorance... Oddly enough, in plain 21th century, where Internet can supply you with all kind of info...

U-551 Kapitan
03-12-2005, 09:30 AM
I fear that in the future, when mankind looks back at our actions at the first stages of the 21st Century, we will be looked upon like we look upon the Nazis now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

EFileTahi-A
03-12-2005, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-551 Kapitan:
I fear that in the future, when mankind looks back at our actions at the first stages of the 21st Century, we will be looked upon like we look upon the Nazis now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately U-551 Kapitan, your words are disturbently accurate...

EFileTahi-A
03-12-2005, 09:50 AM
Oh, I saw recently on TV in portuguese news program:

"Our recent goverment invited Dr.Freitas do Amaral (an old politician who exiled himslef from politics few years ago) to be part of the new portuguese goverment. Dr.Freitas do Amaral gladly accept it and US made some declaration against Dr. S³crates (portuguese pri-ministor) for inviting such person (Dr. Freitas do Amaral) who said things against the Iraque War and the US goverment..."

I'll say to American goverment to get their filthy, dirty, lurid, f*cking hands of my cr*ppy country!