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Final_Boss
04-15-2006, 08:21 AM
This is a thread to all believers that necro creatures are too bad. Maybe isn´t too late for fix this faction, and they hear us.
_______________________________________________

The Duel Mode isn´t a good place to see the balance, but the crude reality is, that even on this place we can see that necro creatures need a boost.

First of all, a magic faction shouldn€t have weak creatures because it lacks on AT and DF; and second, a faction cannot be composed by 7 bad creatures, even if they can be recruited in great numbers.

The really demoralizing thing, is that the only really useful ability of the whole faction is the well-known Vampire€s Life Drain, and it has been castrated.

Zombie = Meat shield, useless.
Spectre = Weak like a fly, and slow like a ****
Vampire = Not bad, but not enough
Lich = Good shooter... if it didn´t occupy 4 squares with melee penalty!
Wraith = Good stats, but if a man cannot live by bread alone, a creature cannot live by stats alone€¦ It needs some true useful ability!
Shadow Dragon = The great joke ever seen in HoMM

And skeleton archers€¦ yeah, you can have thousands of them, but is no reason for make 7 bad creatures! All other factions have specials too, and I only see almighty units!!

Oh! Some very interesting: Wraith€s Harm Touch kill only 1 creature and you have to spend a entire turn to do it, but haha€¦ this is very funny, when Balors attack, they can kill 1 creature more thanks to their vorpal sword.

Bye!

PS: Nival, I´m watching you!!
PS2: I will receive english lessons soon, I promise

EDIT: Removed official. Its a highly-overused term.

Kartabon
04-15-2006, 08:25 AM
Your english isnt very bad final_boss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. You have reasson Boss... this faction have been ''destroyed''... And i cant imaginate its campaign... imposible to complete! Well nival... i hope you hear this complain...

rldragon
04-15-2006, 09:18 AM
I agree with you on all terms Final_boss except one thing.How is instant kill worthless ability?
Yeah, I am talking about wraiths.

cloud747
04-15-2006, 09:59 AM
i agree, that necro needs a boost.
i dont ask for much.
just let the incorporeal ability back to wraiths and shadowdragon. it could be a nice and balanced faction.

Kartabon
04-15-2006, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by cloud747:
i agree, that necro needs a boost.
i dont ask for much.
just let the incorporeal ability back to wraiths and shadowdragon. it could be a nice and balanced faction.

That would unbalance the faction, this ability is too powerful... but if the ability is reduced in power... then we will have a great faction...

Plemenit
04-15-2006, 10:33 AM
Since they took away the incorporeal ability from wraiths and spectral dragons they should replace it with something. I suggest those two creatures should be magic resistant; e.g. 30%.

OR

Make the incorporeal ability work a bit different for these two; when the miss triggers (from incorporeal) the creature take only, let's say, 50% of the damage.

Naskonni
04-15-2006, 11:08 AM
Yes, I agree too - compared to the other factions and corresponding creature tiers the Necropolis is left lacking, badly!

Zombies need to sustain more damage - the absolutely only good thing they are good for, i.e. being meatshields, has to be boosted in adequate fashion.

Spectres - well, even with corporeal it is a russian rullette whether they will die immediately or two turns later and since they don't deal a lot of damage... I somehow treat them as a very, very weak meatshiled with no specific purpose on the battefield - what are they supposed to be good at exactly?

Wraiths? Well - their stats are not good enough considering how lacking they are in the ability department - the touch ability is not even offensive - to use it you have to be by the enemy creatures first and they always kill only one creature irrespectively of how many Wraiths there are in the stack...

I really think Wraiths need something - incorporeal is said to overpower them, well - seeing what bonuses the other faction creatures of the same tier offer I'm not so sure - just have a look at the Balor and tell me they are supposed to be worth the same... Instead of incorporeal maybe Wraiths should revive (raise dead) one (1) Wraith when they use their touch - that wouldn't be so bad, is it? Or maybe when touch-killing to transfer a portion of the hitpoints of the victim back to the hero as mana, for after all this is a magic hero faction. Just a couple of ideas.

Spectral Dragons - the joke of the final tier. This unit needs a boost even more than the Wraith. One could offer so many options ranging from making their strike of the kind where they won't receive a counter-attack, to aging the whole enemy stack, to incorporeal to some degree, spell-caster of a few mass spells (mass-curse?), reduce enemy morale by -1 or -2 (for normal/upgraded dragons respectively) and so on. Anything really.

As for vampires - they are already there, they need a very small boost, either to damage, hitpoits or preferably initiave. There isn't a single good initiavite unit in the Necropolis - why?

Well, my few cents worth of ideas.

w0mbat84
04-15-2006, 11:42 AM
balance, but the crude reality is, that even on this place we can see that necro creatures need a boost.

Agrees

Brendaccio
04-15-2006, 12:55 PM
i don't know if necropolis needs a boost...but i know for sure that necro creatures needs to be improved.

my suggestion:


BLACK KNIGHTS!!!!!!

Jolly-Joker
04-15-2006, 01:07 PM
I think you all overlook the fact that Necro can convert everything to undead of the same tier. So that means that Necro creatures MUST be among the weakest for each tier and have to come over numbers. It's as simple as that.

Pitsu
04-15-2006, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
I think you all overlook the fact that Necro can convert everything to undead of the same tier. So that means that Necro creatures MUST be among the weakest for each tier and have to come over numbers. It's as simple as that.

From where do you take the creatures to convert? Diplomacy? Another town? To take another town from which you can get higher tires than lvl1 and lvl2 you need and army which can beat the other towns lvl3-7. Dimplomacy is kind of unpredictable, an building your strategy on it is very risky.

I agree with the first post that vampires and wright's specials should be strengthen and perhaps the stats of the dragons too.

MrOELOELOE
04-15-2006, 01:42 PM
I will wiat for creature growth numbers and other campaign aspects that I havent seen yet, be4 I make up my mind, the duelhero sure is weak though.

HealingAura
04-15-2006, 02:29 PM
I would:
- Give the spectral dragons back the incorporal ability, I don't know why the removed it - it's not like it's good at anything else.
- Harm Touch should ressurect one wraith (if one was killed in the battle)
- Increase the zombies stats and growth:
defense: 3 (upgraded 5)
damage: 1-2 (upgraded 2-3)
HP: 20 (upgraded 25)
Growth: 22
cost: 35 (upgraded 40)
That would make them a better meet shield
- Increase the ghosts stats and growth:
HP: 15 (upgraded 20)
Growth: 11
That would make them more durable

In general, the Undeads need a lot more HP! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Naskonni
04-15-2006, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by HealingAura:
I would:
- Give the spectral dragons back the incorporal ability, I don't know why the removed it - it's not like it's good at anything else.
- Harm Touch should ressurect one wraith (if one was killed in the battle)
- Increase the zombies stats and growth:
defense: 3 (upgraded 5)
damage: 1-2 (upgraded 2-3)
HP: 20 (upgraded 25)
Growth: 22
cost: 35 (upgraded 40)
That would make them a better meet shield
- Increase the ghosts stats and growth:
HP: 15 (upgraded 20)
Growth: 11
That would make them more durable

In general, the Undeads need a lot more HP! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

phoenixzs
04-15-2006, 02:39 PM
First I agree;

Skeletons:They are fine,not the best but they are fine.

zombies:Too slow(which they should be in my opinion) but that weakening strike should be improved.Something caught by the zombie should suffer,probably could be some slowing affect.They should be better meat shields

Specters:They are not the best unit out there but I think them as filling the "the worst unit of its level" place for necro.We all know that there is going to be a worst level in all levels so let this be specter for level 3 I wouldnt mind.

Wampires:Should are a bit underpowered.The idea behind wampire numbers is stupid.They should be not numerous but few and powerfull.Bring back those into 2nd place among its group or 3rd maybe.But I dont want the cheesy wampires return either,they should be killed but they should also inflict good amount of damage.

Liches:They do the shooting well but their large structure is painfull.Also their spell selection is very weak how can a sprite cast phatom image,dispel and wasp swarm while masters of death magic cast so useless spells.They should be related to necromancy(like raising zombies specters;please no more skeletons) or decreasing enemy morale or initiative.Simply It should make players choose rather than otomaticaly deal damage with area effect range damage.

Wraith:Although statics are good it ought to be good to balance the weak 7th level.If you want a weak 7th level this creature has to be 7th level killer,it should be better.Also why remove the incorporal ability?It already head low hp.The harm touch is useless if not dependent on creature number.It should increase slightly with popullation lets say 1 increase for 6 weeks available.Or it should have a secondary effect like freezing the enemy or decreasing its morale cumulatively when it damages.So this wraith needs a twist.

Specter Dragon:Okay I respect the game developers to make Specter Dragons weak but numerous.But the problem is that a 7th levels job could be "never" be a meatshield.Okay maybe they are not so good at killing which is okay with me but they should be an agressive creature for being last level.They should be more tactical which they are not at the moment.Incorporal ability just made them tougher and helped them to not get killed.But what we need is another way of agressivness.Maybe the creatures get attacked by should be effected by massive drawback like;-2 to morale(cumulative) chance to freeze in terror,or decrease in damage.Also it should not be a mass thing like enemy army gets -1 morale since it would kill the tactical opportunities.And also being cheap doesn't help so much either.
So my idea about specteral dragon to be a true level 7 is;
-Numerous
-Low in damage,attack,initiative,deals below low damage
-Tough to kill(incorporality back)
-Massive penalty to the creature attacked

Overall necro right know lacks the spirit of saying you got that troop but look we have X at level Y.Back in Heroes 3 I found fortress very weak in line up but at 5th level there is the Mighty Gorgon which every castle wanted to have.Thats the thing I am talking about,where this creaturefor necro now?In the past there were dreathknights and wampires but now all the creatures are at second place.We want at least one creature that shines over other race not by its number but its abilities,might and felixiability.And given the fact that the 7th level is so weak this must be the 6th level to carry the flag.

Necromancy and Leadership:Please change the usage of leadership.It simply doesnt help and leadership is very deciding in game.Make so that it gives negative morale to the defending army rather than positive to the necromancers.Also I think necromancy should also raise zombies.Rather than having insane number of skeletons and people complainig how powerfull they are we could get a more even army.

Farax85
04-15-2006, 02:42 PM
I agree. they are too weak.
How about Incorporeal that works like that:
against units of the same level: 20% and for lower level creatures it increases by 5%. So dragon:
20%,25%,30%,35%,40%,45%,50%
Minimum is 20% and max 50%
wright:
20%,20%,25%,30%,35%,40%,45%
ghost/spectre:
30%,35%,40%
ghosts are special, because they have low stasts, so they need to have something. or use standard 20%+5%/lvl and update their stats.

Oscarius_
04-15-2006, 02:47 PM
Naskonni:
Spectres - well, even with corporeal it is a russian rullette whether they will die immediately or two turns later and since they don't deal a lot of damage... I somehow treat them as a very, very weak meatshiled with no specific purpose on the battefield - what are they supposed to be good at exactly?

Well they drain mana which can ruin some creature spellcasters utterly bad. Other than that, they are like u say a russian roulette, but if they are many and survive many attacks from their incorporeal ability, then they are a deadly weapon!

BUT! I agree to almost everything said above. The thing is that I think necro will be fine when playing a normal game, but in duel mode they really need more creatures to stand up to the rest. But I have played them many times in duelmode now and they own Heaven and Dungeon in duel... but the other ones are hard to face I think.

Infiltrator-SF
04-15-2006, 04:01 PM
First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

Having said that, the duel has nothing to do with balance. You get some weird creature numbers to fight some other army with weird creature numbers. What necromancer has ~250 skeletons side by side with 12 Wraiths? What Warlock has 45 Matrons/Matriarchs, 200 Blood Furies, 60 Grim raiders and.. nothing else? I don't think it's appropriate even to mention the words duel and town balance in the same topic.

Now onto the necromancer, I do share some concerns with the town, but in my opinion the situation isn't nearly as grave as described in some of the above posts (and the OP's post).

Whith all this whining nobody is actually saying - "hey, our skeletons get to SHOOT". This is a tremendeous advantage by itself. Up till now huge skeleton armies were deadly, but slow at pace, now they are fast (good init) and you can just obliderate the enemy from a distance.

Zombies - yea they are slow fat and all, but I don't think they serve the purpose wrong - they are numerous and resistant to damage, the perfect unit to soak retilations for your weaker troops. The weakness is just a bonus. I don't see anything wrong here.

Ghosts - I've had streaks of 5 misses on them and no serious player will target a large stack of ghosts with anything but spells. You say they are russian roulette, well they are, but for the other player. Wasting attacks is the fastest way to lose.

Vampires - nothing needs to be said here.

Liches - excellent shooter and plague is very good. If you don't like them being 2 squares get tactics and put a zombie in front of them, problem solved. Nothing wrong with them.

Wraiths - Need some small buff, I agree, but nothing drastic. Perhaps -1 to luck on all surrounding enemy creatures.

Shadow Dragons - you get 4 of them a week. Maybe some minor bonus, like remove curse and put a chance for some small aging effect that can stack. Definetly NOT incorporeality, at least not at the level of the ghosts.

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

cloud747
04-15-2006, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

........

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

u judge all those units with their stats and number, have u considered of the usage in realbattle?

1.skeleton is nummerous , but in heroes V the rule is ,low tier creature is quite useless against high lvl tier , u can feel it in the combat, the effective way to kill nummerous low tier is ,killing them with high tier units ,and u wont get hurt by retaliation, so its fair unit with its nummber

2. zambie ,as u said, should be a meatshield, but! with its initiative 6/speed 3 ??!! the reality is zambie take his first action,when half troops r gone , he take his second action , when he is the only 1 left.no one cares if he is on the battlegroud. so ...its compeletely useless units, but i can accept ,if nival give us better reason.

3.ghosts, ye, mana drain is nice , how many times have u used in combat? magic caster wont stand front let u hit , man. they always stay behind, ghosts get killed before get there. so , its not nice as u thought, but i can accept, lvl 3 cant aspect too much

4. vampire, its fair in V with its low dmg

5. lich with its foolish 4 square, not nice as u thought either. u cant splite them into many group,because u dont have enough slots, so decay cant be mass-cast. and u can forget his area effect shooting ablility, comparing with decay, he is just a caster on the battlegroud.
but its fair, i dont ask for more.

6. wraith. lets talk about the real combat again. how many times have u used the harm touch in combat? u have to get close to the target to use this ability,
if u r stronger than target , why not just hit?
if the target u r facing is as strong as ur wraiths, u will be killed if u just use harm touch.
if u r weaker than target, mostly u got killed in next round
so the only situation to use it is, u r near to death , get last strike, or its 1-wraiths -vs-1-angel combat. do u still think ,its useful skill?

another question? what will it happend , when wraith meets paladin?

7. shadowdragon , everyone knows its a joke.

at last but not at least. necro dont have any units can across the battlefield with 1 move, do u know what it means? u got half troops left , when u first time hit ur opponent.

Can Slight improvement solve all those problems?!

Infiltrator-SF
04-15-2006, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

........

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

Touche.

Besides, I agree partially, and disagree partially, so again, no point in your statement.

cloud747
04-15-2006, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

........

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

Touche.

Besides, I agree partially, and disagree partially, so again, no point in your statement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
sorry, just wrong clicked , plz check out above again.
now i have given my point

unreal_az
04-15-2006, 08:41 PM
The thing is this.
The race has to be made competitive for multiplayer.
Problem here it comes to the maps the game is played on and the dificulty.
I think on a higher dif the necro would have a better chance cause of the neutral creep growth. The other factions loose troops while the necropolys only takes.
Also there have to be a lot of lvl 1,2,3 troops on the map for necro to be good cause you don't go with skellies only vs 5,6,7 but you can easily do that against low-tier units.
Also i've seen the lvl2 spell animate dead i think it's great for the necro cause then you wouldn't loose any troops, combined with the no rest for the wicked ability if it still exists.
The thing is untill the game will be out we can't really say if they are good or not.
Perhaps JJ has a point here and i think that he has played the game way more than others and due to his experience and the way he always wanted the game to be ballanced makes me think it will be ok.
Of course there will be a way of patching/modding the game for competitive playing and that some race may be a little IMBA as they say in Warcraft but this game reached version 1.20c and still some the humans are IMBA but that's the thing. How you beat the IMBA race. ?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Polaris2013
04-15-2006, 09:42 PM
I am all for a competitive Necropolis.

However, the demo is a poor place to decide whether the Necropolis is too weak or not- you can't even play the faction except in Duel Mode which isn't even balanced the same way.

phoenixzs
04-16-2006, 02:42 AM
About Shadow Dragons Being 4 population:Sure Make them 8 per week and even more numerous and we now have a flying skeleton instead of dragon.The idea behind the last levels is they should be low on numbers but tactical(not meat shields).I think their number 3 per week should be more powerfull.

And lastly they are not(should not be at least) meat shields.

Small buff?kidding right.This is a last level creature look at the other abilities.
Titan-mind shield+shooting
Dragon-immunity to magic cone attack(which is very tactical in my opinion)
Archangel:Resurrection
Devil:Teleport+summon

And these are the abilities not counting the good statics like initiative,damage,attack defense hitpoints.Simply bone dragon is not a 2nd level guy it needs a shining ability for being a 7th level guy.Calculating its situtation it should be an agressive ability rather than defensive to enable it fill its purpose on last level.

Naskonni
04-16-2006, 08:07 AM
Ok, how about making wraiths kill 1 creature per 10 wraiths in the stack? The ability will be completely useless vs lower tier creatures and will be usefull only vs tier 6 and 7/high hitpoint/high defense units. Since Necropolis is weak physically it makes sense to allow them to have an edge vs higher tier enemy creatures under the command of a might hero. This will still give the enemy hero plenty of options to deal with them - you will simply have to take care that they never, ever end up next to your higher tier units. Wraith cannot touch-attack as they are - they have to move first, touch on the next turn. This would make them a good high-tier counter of sorts, irrespectively of how weak the hero is in terms of attack/defense. I think touch-killing should replenish the hitpoints of the wraith on the top of the stack too.

Incorporeal for the Shadow Dragons wouldn't overpower them I think - give them Incorporeal and let them spawn as many as the other creatures of the same tier, this should balance them out, as IMHO they are really that bad as it is now.

As far as I know incorporeal never actually functioned on those units in the beta, and this has never been tested, which makes me think that one should not dismiss the idea outright without proper testing first. How about that?

Ampuhaukka
04-16-2006, 08:16 AM
Double the Wights and Wrights movement.

aetherburst
04-16-2006, 11:16 AM
i think wraiths instead of killing 1 kill 1 for each wraith that died durring the battle http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Campaigner_1st
04-16-2006, 11:24 AM
I like the Necropolis with its high growth, cheap price and weak stats. Makes them unique. But if they're really to weak then some strong cursing abilities like "kill 1 enemy troop for evey 10 Wraiths" and a more powerful disease for the Zombies would be fine by me.

KingImp
04-16-2006, 12:50 PM
The Wraith's Harm Touch really needed to be fixed to kill based on Hit Points, not just 1 kill regardless of what unit it was attacking. It will be a shame to find out that they didn't fix it to work that way.

Naskonni
04-16-2006, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by KingImp:
The Wraith's Harm Touch really needed to be fixed to kill based on Hit Points, not just 1 kill regardless of what unit it was attacking. It will be a shame to find out that they didn't fix it to work that way.

Well, it depends whether you want the ability to be any good vs numerous lower tier units too, or you want to make it useful only vs higher tier units you couldn't kill otherwise. As it is now it is good only vs very strong units but it will hardly be of any use later in the game when the final tier stacks grow a bit more and a single final tier unit won't be that valuable nor make much difference in battles (can you imagine wasting a whole turn for, say, 30 wraiths just to kill one unit? I don't).

Zamolxis108
04-16-2006, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
This is a thread to all believers that necro creatures are too bad. Please, write only those people who agree with the thread, because it is for accumulating complaints. Maybe isn´t too late for fix this faction, and they hear us. LOL! It's like starting a poll on changing or not the Treant, but asking the people to not actually vote if the don't want it changed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Necro already was tweaked up since the beta. Zombies & Vampires could still use some. But let's not forget they get free shooters through their specialty and have a higher weekly growth rate than any other L7 unit in the game (with their HP boosted since the beta, getting really close to the other L7's)

Final_Boss
04-16-2006, 05:27 PM
LOL! It's like starting a poll on changing or not the Treant, but asking the people to not actually vote if the don't want it changed.
Yes, except by a pair of exceptions: 1)It isn´t a poll, 2)It´s a thread to gather complaints, not opinions. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Necro already was tweaked up since the beta...
And...? It doesn´t mean that has been enough.

KingImp
04-16-2006, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KingImp:
The Wraith's Harm Touch really needed to be fixed to kill based on Hit Points, not just 1 kill regardless of what unit it was attacking. It will be a shame to find out that they didn't fix it to work that way.

Well, it depends whether you want the ability to be any good vs numerous lower tier units too, or you want to make it useful only vs higher tier units you couldn't kill otherwise. As it is now it is good only vs very strong units but it will hardly be of any use later in the game when the final tier stacks grow a bit more and a single final tier unit won't be that valuable nor make much difference in battles (can you imagine wasting a whole turn for, say, 30 wraiths just to kill one unit? I don't). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you may have misunderstood me. I am in no way happy about the "kill 1 unit no matter what level they are" ability. It should be based on hit points. Let's say it should do 90 damage since that is the amount of HP the Wraiths have.

Okay, so if it were to attack a stack of Stone Gargoyles who have 15 HP, then it would kill 6 of them. Now, if it were to attack a stack if Liches who have 45 HP, then only 2 would die. Now, 90 is just a random number I popped in there, it could be more, it could be less. Either way, it still makes more sense than the way it currently is saying Harm Touch would kill 1 Peasant and also kill 1 Black Dragon. If this wasn't fixed, then I honestly don't get how this logic escaped the developers.

Final_Boss
04-16-2006, 09:26 PM
Well, I suppose that doesn´t matter if we share our opinions here too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Harm Tough has been made to be useful against level 7 creatures only, this should still. But I a have a new idea! Harm Touch should be fixed to use it from distance, like an spell or Titan´s lightning ability. This would force the enemy to concentrate his attacks in wraiths to protect his expensive and few creatures of level 7. Wraiths would die, but they could still using the ability even if only still living one of them.

You only imagine how much cool would be to see a wraith indicating with his forefinger from distant spot, and an archangel diying in the fact.

KingImp
04-16-2006, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Harm Tough has been made to be useful against level 7 creatures only

Can you, or anyone else please explain this? I haven't yet seen the Wraith use it in the demo, so as far as I knew it still only killed 1 unit, no matter what level they were.

akrav
04-16-2006, 11:27 PM
he means that since it can only kill 1 unit, it will only be effective to use it on tier 6-7 units, otherwise it would be more effective just to use the normal attack.

exojie1985
04-17-2006, 12:12 AM
i agree that they should make Necropolis competitive. Harm Touch should kills more and it should be a trigger ability that happens after it attacks instead of activate ability.

KingImp
04-17-2006, 01:02 AM
After finally testing the Wraith's Harm Touch in Duel, I can go back to standing by what I said earlier. How did the logic of making this unit do HP damage with that ability instead of only killing 1 unit escape the developers?

Yeah, killing 1 Peasant vs. killing 1 Black Dragon seems like an even, well thought out ability to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

phoenixzs
04-17-2006, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by exojie1985:
i agree that they should make Necropolis competitive. Harm Touch should kills more and it should be a trigger ability that happens after it attacks instead of activate ability.
Agreed very much.Also ıt should be aganist last levels I dont have any objection aganist depending on numbers rather than hitpoint.

Jolly-Joker
04-17-2006, 02:31 AM
Did someone notice, btw, that the header of this thread is very different from what's in it?
I mean, the header says, we want a "competetive" Necropolis, but actually the points have nothing to do with competetiveness. It's more or less a complaint that
a) The preset Necro hero for duel mode is too weak (which hasn't got much to do with Necropolis as such) and
b) That some people don't want to be Necropolis being a faction with ONLY weakish, but numerous units, especially not for level 7.
All that does by no means mean, Necropolis isn't competetive.

Naskonni
04-17-2006, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Did someone notice, btw, that the header of this thread is very different from what's in it?
I mean, the header says, we want a "competetive" Necropolis, but actually the points have nothing to do with competetiveness. It's more or less a complaint that
a) The preset Necro hero for duel mode is too weak (which hasn't got much to do with Necropolis as such) and
b) That some people don't want to be Necropolis being a faction with ONLY weakish, but numerous units, especially not for level 7.
All that does by no means mean, Necropolis isn't competetive.

a) Duel is what we have to judge cuurent Necro unit strength and weaknesses - that's why it's mentioned
b) Weak units across the board, units with little to no useful abilities and a pathetic level 7 Dragon DO MAKE FOR A NON-COMPETITIVE NECROPOLIS. There - hope you understand now!
c) People thus make suggestions to what they think should be made as to make Necro COMPETITIVE!

What's so complicated?

Back to the topic - Maybe it is not a bad idea to have the Wratih touch be a trigger ability - like 50+% chance to occur when attacking - think about it - Balor's vorpal sword kills a unit every time it strikes (IIRC). The active ability could be made a distant one - you can choose to kill any unit on the battefiled from a distance whenever you feel like it. My idea to make touch-killing either a HP or mana replenishing ability still stands - maybe it could be considered http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There are so many ways to boost level 6 and 7's abilities and quite a few of them sound adequate for the purpose at hand. I just hope they will not choose to do it the easy way of boosting the stats a bit and leaving the abilities as they are now for this will make for a blandish faction and would not do them justice.

Jolly-Joker
04-17-2006, 05:17 AM
But Necropolis is competetive as it is.
OK, let me get this straight. No one here has any idea how Necropolis has evolved after the beta. You may see some stats in the Duel Mode of the Demo, but even those might well have been changed in the meantime. You don't know what buoldings Necropolis has. You don't know how many creatures the town gives per level. You don't know how abilities work. Most of the time people in the beta complained about the Chilling Steel ability being too good for Necro and so on and so forth.
So what I see is a complaint like, well, the creatures all suck, we want powerful Necro creatures, which means all other aspects of the game are ignored.
You could just as well say Dungeon doesn't get enough creatures and is therefore not competetive.

MrOELOELOE
04-17-2006, 05:53 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Zamolxis108
04-17-2006, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Me too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Naskonni
04-17-2006, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
But Necropolis is competetive as it is.
OK, let me get this straight. No one here has any idea how Necropolis has evolved after the beta. You may see some stats in the Duel Mode of the Demo, but even those might well have been changed in the meantime. You don't know what buoldings Necropolis has. You don't know how many creatures the town gives per level. You don't know how abilities work. Most of the time people in the beta complained about the Chilling Steel ability being too good for Necro and so on and so forth.
So what I see is a complaint like, well, the creatures all suck, we want powerful Necro creatures, which means all other aspects of the game are ignored.
You could just as well say Dungeon doesn't get enough creatures and is therefore not competetive.

Ok, sure I don't have access to the buildings of the Necro and no, I don't know how hero abilities have changed since the beta, but what I CAN see for sure is that in the current state of the game a few Necro units are left lacking, with abilities so useless in most of the cases that it leaves you wondering what's the point of having them at all:

- Dragons (abilities, what abilities?)
- Liches' spell casting (why would you waste a turn casting nearly useless spells instead of simply shooting)
- Wraiths death touch (kill one unit, you have to waste a turn moving next to a target to use even)
- zombies as a whole (you can move them once per battle - the tactical phase, but even if you could there is usually nothing they can do with their damage and ultra low initiave and movement range, meatshield - hardly enough of it)
- ghosts as a whole (purpose on the battefield, useful for what exactly since they don't deal damage and are not good as meathshields - unless you are VERY lucky in a particular battle - luck=!strategy)

To be concrete - do you think that Wraiths' ability is good enough, does it make for any significant use on the battefield, what about Dragons, which hardly have any ability at all? Compare Wraiths to Balors, compare the whole Inferno lineup and the usefullness of the units (more or less every single units has a very useful ability that can be used tactically, every single tier) and then have a look at the Necropolis! How many tiers of Necropolis units are either bland or semi-useless. They are damn slow, low(er) initiative, low damage, very few tiers have useful abilities to speak of (Ghosts for example - what exactly is their role, what niche do they fit on the battlefield?), Wraiths, Dragons, the works.

Sure the Necro buildings might be made better, or more probably cheaper, but the units are still left lacking, and I believe it's obvious.

If the whole faction will revolve around a few very specific hero and town abilities it will make for a very limited, linear gameplay with one or very few effective strategies (i.e. you will always *have* to get hero abilities A, B, C, skills X, Y, Z, no matter the map, the enemy, the situation and if you don't then you lose), which is boring and bland.

I happen to believe that this does not make for a good gameplay and based on what I CAN see so far I can say that Necro units are NOT competitive and I can hardly believe that hero skills alone can compensate for it. That's my point of view - that certain units need tweaking and are not competitive (nor fun) as they are compared to the units of the other factions in the corresponding tiers.

I think it's wrong to nerf the whole faction just because skeletons are raised as archers in this HoMM, at least in HoMM3 I had black knight (the ultimate meatshield and damage output factory), vampires (which were not overpowered in my eyes) and liches that kicked *** left right and center. These units compensated for the ultimately useless zombies, wraiths and dragons (all of which I bought only if I had a surplus of cash, otherwise not). The problem now is that knights are gone, zombies are just as useless, vampires are weaker, dragons are just as bland and not worth the investment and wraiths are simply not good enough as they are now in order to compensate. The only real improvement is skeleton archers, but as already pointed out this is hardly what it takes for a good faction, at least not for me.

KingAlamar
04-17-2006, 07:48 AM
Has anyone done any lengthy balance testing in some maps? Until we have tried to do that balance testing I don't think that we can say for sure that the faction as a whole is unplayable.

However I would be sad if the only "real" route to victory was Necromancy + Chilling Steel + hope you get lucky.

KingAlamar
04-17-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Did someone notice, btw, that the header of this thread is very different from what's in it?
I mean, the header says, we want a "competetive" Necropolis, but actually the points have nothing to do with competetiveness. It's more or less a complaint that
a) The preset Necro hero for duel mode is too weak (which hasn't got much to do with Necropolis as such) and
b) That some people don't want to be Necropolis being a faction with ONLY weakish, but numerous units, especially not for level 7.
All that does by no means mean, Necropolis isn't competetive.

EXACTLY my point ... you made it first.

Until we can actually do some hotseat testing [which I bet JJ has already done] we can't be sure what ANY of the faction's balance will be like.

Jolly-Joker
04-17-2006, 08:06 AM
That analysis is lacking a lot.
1) Skeleton Archers; no need to discuss them.
2) The special effect of the plague zombies is cumulative; Gargoyles and Demons are hardly better, but still all those have their use.
3) The Ghosts and Spectres are pretty cool. Actually Spectres will raise themselves by draining the mana of magically active creatures. Note that this gives them the 50% immaterial thing and makes them pretty good against the spellcasting neutrals (not to mention against the caster unit that each line-up has).
4) Vampires are a tad more vulnerable which is good beceuse it makes Necro less one-dimensional strategies. It's still a very useful unit, though. You need to do something for their damage capabilities and the game offers ample opportunity to do so.
5) Liches are still kicking. Get Tactics and you win an additional deployment line to shield them, if necessary.
6) The Wraiths. Harm Touch will not only kill a unit, it will remove all beneficial effects from the target as well which is not that bad considering there are much more beneficial effects than just SPELLS.
7) The Dragons. As far as I remember it's not the first time that the highest level unit is not your prime killer. However, the Phantom Dragon comes with an additional cursing attack that will lay a debuff (on highest level) onto the target - not that bad either considering you'll get 50% more level 7s than everyone else and pretty cheap at that.
Since Necropolis will have a HELL of shooting power (if you play them right), Necropolis is defensive in nature. The skellies take up only one space so you can easily keep them out of range while the Liches will force the opposition to disperse. So the opponent must attack; sadly for the opponent, if they come the Necro shooter will deal double damage. The other troops will attrition the opponent down.
That does NOT factor in any hero skill, spell, ability and town building advantages that are too numerous to name them here.
So where the freaking hell is Necropolis not competetive?

phoenixzs
04-17-2006, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
That analysis is lacking a lot.
1) Skeleton Archers; no need to discuss them.
2) The special effect of the plague zombies is cumulative; Gargoyles and Demons are hardly better, but still all those have their use.
3) The Ghosts and Spectres are pretty cool. Actually Spectres will raise themselves by draining the mana of magically active creatures. Note that this gives them the 50% immaterial thing and makes them pretty good against the spellcasting neutrals (not to mention against the caster unit that each line-up has).
4) Vampires are a tad more vulnerable which is good beceuse it makes Necro less one-dimensional strategies. It's still a very useful unit, though. You need to do something for their damage capabilities and the game offers ample opportunity to do so.
5) Liches are still kicking. Get Tactics and you win an additional deployment line to shield them, if necessary.
6) The Wraiths. Harm Touch will not only kill a unit, it will remove all beneficial effects from the target as well which is not that bad considering there are much more beneficial effects than just SPELLS.
7) The Dragons. As far as I remember it's not the first time that the highest level unit is not your prime killer. However, the Phantom Dragon comes with an additional cursing attack that will lay a debuff (on highest level) onto the target - not that bad either considering you'll get 50% more level 7s than everyone else and pretty cheap at that.
Since Necropolis will have a HELL of shooting power (if you play them right), Necropolis is defensive in nature. The skellies take up only one space so you can easily keep them out of range while the Liches will force the opposition to disperse. So the opponent must attack; sadly for the opponent, if they come the Necro shooter will deal double damage. The other troops will attrition the opponent down.
That does NOT factor in any hero skill, spell, ability and town building advantages that are too numerous to name them here.
So where the freaking hell is Necropolis not competetive?
Actually I think "this" analysis lacks a lot.
Skellies:Okay they are good necromancers have so many skeletons blah blah.I tell you what they must be numerous after all "necromancy" is the main skill of necromancers and what is only does is raise skeleton numbers.So what is so weird in having so many skeletons?Do other races dont have any special class skill?Does the knights dont have training?They say necromancy is good at big maps so on but if you have good amount of money training shines,if you get your favorite enemies right favored enemy thing is awesome.So there "are" situations that when special skills shine so what?So my point is extra number of skeletons is not an "extra" to the race and should be considered that way.If you(reader I mean no any kind of offense Jolly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)look at the objections in the post all of them are based on skeleton numbers they say "...but you have that many skeletons".That is simply not a valid

Zombies:Okay they are not the best troop but that weakining strike has to do something good.They were weaklings back in all series I have no objection to that but at least they should do something.

Ghost:Not a good unit but every castle has to have a below average unit so this goes to Specter.Maybe that mana drain is not so bad

Vampires:Weak but numerous?I think not these are superb creatures must have high initiative.Okay I dont object to their draining capacity but their damage could be slightly high.And I would like to see them with same performance but low in numbers.Is this too much to ask?Instead of 6 wampires 4 wampires doing the same job.

Liches:I think they are uselless not because of their area but their spells.The spells are not tactical enough and so in the end we have an area effect shooter(which he is good at)that can cast spells no one uses.Simply decreasing mana and iniative should be the top priority.Or raising some ghosts or raising dead.This would make him valuable.Mass curse weakness and all that stuff belongs to hero what we need is spells that "depend" on the number of creatures in the stack or fill the top priorities.

Wraith:Simply Harm touch is underpowered.If ıt was cast on chance while attacking like deathj blow it would be very fine.But activating it?Yes it removes buffs but so does the sprite at 1st level and she can also do negative ones.Simply Wraith should be the workhorse of the castle it should shine on other level 6 easily with ability and usability.It should be effective in killing last levels since the dragon will do no good or the lich when they are in melle with it.

Shadow Dragon:Okay they are weak we all know that but how much weak should they be?That cursing attack brought some tactical opportunities but I hope they dont remove incorporality because it can only stand chance aganist others that way.Maybe it can be decreased a bit but it shouldnt be removed just because some sissies think its "OVERPOWWWEEERED!!!".It gives an unpredictibality to the dragon which is nice.

Last Undead Situation:Okay the whole army has low initiative and speed but the undead situation also makes it harder.Sure being not effected by mind spells is good but it doesnt realy balance out the fact of morale.Morale simply is very good and its very easy to aquire even without leadership.So I dont say the undead situation should change totally but there should be a way(not deathcall spell) to decrease enemy morale.Since the leadership does no benefit to necros an aditional ability in leadership tree could at least make use half of this excess unused morale of undead to decrease enemy morale.So lets say if you have +4 morale it decreases enemy morale by -2.

If everyone that plays necro has to mass up skeletons and the only way to win the games are to choose frenzy+chiling steel+toughness etc)you get what I mean)every time this can be called one dimensional competitveness but it cant be called "Strategy"

Necropolis defensive?If you want a defensive army look at tower two ranged attackers golems can be repaired.No enemy retaliation.Last level is a ranged attacker.The main idea behind a defensive army is not to loose how can you not loose when your whole army is weak but numerous?A defensive army is made of elite creature low in numbers which deal much damage and are very expensive.What I can call necro now is a "sacrifice a portion of the army to win" kind of army.Soon will people learn how to make no loss combats and the real pain will begin for the necro who will much harder do it.Anyway competitive or not many people are not happy with this kind of faction.I think the people who like it are mostly non-necro players who see them from battle to battle.Sure from outside numerous troops could look fine but its not so entertaining trying to keep them alive from battle to battle.

Lastly?Every faction has below average troops and above average troops.Simply its an overall balance.We dont want all our creatures to be numerous we want a creature that shines in its level not by its number but by its abilities.This was always so in heroes even the below average creature town fortress got the mighty gorgons(no offense by the way I like fortress very much)We want "that cream of the pie" share of our castle.In this case it looks like to be wraith.But for balance purposes this "cream" could be divided into lich-wraith or wampire-wraith.Thanks for readin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Final_Boss
04-17-2006, 09:31 AM
So where the freaking hell is Necropolis not competetive?
Seriously, necro creatures are not useful. It isn´t question of numbers

- Spectres can restore themselves stealing spellcaster´s mana, but c´mon, they have Speed-5 and Init-10, they NEVER cross the bettlefield alive. The only utility of this creature is make the enemy miss some hit, if you have luck.
- Vampire Lords... how much useful is an anti-shooter with Init-11? and how much great is Life Drain when the damage is 7-11 and only drain 50% of it? Compare them vs Griffin (battle dive, unlimited retaliation), Druids (Casters, shooters), Mages (casters, shooters, no range penalty, magic attack), succubi (shooters, chain attack, ranged counter-strike) or Ravagers (Lizard Bite, charge). All those creatures are far more useful.
- Zombies... they are really useless, they never act until they are dead. Ask yourselves if they really worth the money.
- Shadow Dragons: You have to build another bulding to get +1 dragon, and do you think that if you have mmmm... 8 S.Dragons and your enemy 5 archangels is something called balanced? S.Dragons are like expensive lvl-6 creatures.

Archlichs are the only useful necro creature, thanks to Decay, because they are 2x2 shooters with melee penalty.

Jolly-Joker
04-17-2006, 10:28 AM
What I understand is, you don't care much about whether Necropolis is competetive, you care more about having a killer unit that ROCKS (like in, EACH faction should have a killer unit that rocks).
I can understand that.
But please, just demand THAT, then.

phoenixzs
04-17-2006, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
What I understand is, you don't care much about whether Necropolis is competetive, you care more about having a killer unit that ROCKS (like in, EACH faction should have a killer unit that rocks).
I can understand that.
But please, just demand THAT, then.

No thats not right.For my self I demand variety in creature lineup,purpose, overall strategy.If what you figure out from that post is only that message,read the message again please.We all know that the games are build on balance.I care about competitiveness much more than anybody else.I demanded nerfing of the wampires and more even distrubution of necromancy(like 5xskeletons 3xspecters xwampires from the dead) back in Heroes 4 so I am last to blame for uncompetitiveness or being a too much necro lover.I just want a killer unit to balance out the fact that the other creatures are weak.If am wrong in my points say what they are and I will have a chance to defend my ideas,thats the logical and constructive way to do.Otherwise I could easily downgrade your ideas to "you only want necros to have the skeleton strategy nothing more" thing which brings us to no where.

Final_Boss
04-17-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
What I understand is, you don't care much about whether Necropolis is competetive, you care more about having a killer unit that ROCKS (like in, EACH faction should have a killer unit that rocks).
I can understand that.
But please, just demand THAT, then.
No I don´t. If I want a killer creature I would request more damage, double attack, area-effect, etc. I´m only want useful creatures that worth the money. And most important: I want to be able to play my favorite faction in multiplayer.

Naskonni
04-17-2006, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
That analysis is lacking a lot.
1) Skeleton Archers; no need to discuss them.

Definitely not.


2) The special effect of the plague zombies is cumulative; Gargoyles and Demons are hardly better, but still all those have their use.

Yes, if you ever get to move the zombies and something is three squares away in order for you to hit and the zombies survive long enough as to move, AT ALL. Demons are hardly better? Oh, really €" get real! Because of the fact that they can "gate" anywhere on the map and you get absolutely free units (every single battle) that spawn wherever you want (behind walls, next to archers, etc.) is MUCH better if you ask me. Their "explode" ability is quite useful too and is not spent when gating is used. So sorry, but I'll take demons over zombies ANY day of the week. Try better next time!


3) The Ghosts and Spectres are pretty cool. Actually Spectres will raise themselves by draining the mana of magically active creatures. Note that this gives them the 50% immaterial thing and makes them pretty good against the spellcasting neutrals (not to mention against the caster unit that each line-up has).

They are pretty cool - you mean as outer appearance? If so - a great argument! Given how brittle they are and how €œfast€ they move then good luck (literally - corporeal is just that) to get next to a magic unit on the battefield as to drain mana and replenish a few of them, because even in full numbers they hardly do a lot of damage. They will drain the mana for sure, but it is quite usual that by the time they do so the mana is already spent on killing them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As I said already - incorporeal is good, but luck != strategy - they might be useful or not, but that hardly depends on you for the most part, because realistically if incorporeal does not "work" they are doomed.

Let's take the corresponding Inferno unit for example (cerberi) - fast, good hitter, no counter strike when it attacks and can attack multiple enemies and does so even when counter attacking. Which one would do better in the end, how do you think? (rhetorical question)


4) Vampires are a tad more vulnerable which is good beceuse it makes Necro less one-dimensional strategies. It's still a very useful unit, though. You need to do something for their damage capabilities and the game offers ample opportunity to do so.

It's good that vampires are more vulnerable? Because that makes Necropolis otherwise one-dimensional? How come vampires being weaker do Necropolis multi-dimensional, elaborate please, as the number of possible strategies is somewhat at it's minimum from what I see - necromancy + tons of skeleton archers + hero necromancy skills, the rest is just a filling in between. So basically you are saying that without specific boosting the unit is useless - how is that not one-dimensional, why do other faction units don't need that? So if we by chance do not come across means to increase their damage we can just accept that they are somewhat weaker and lose with clear conscience€¦

Let's take Inferno as an example again - what do we have here here - Succubi, heavy hitter, multiple chain strike!, small creature (Liches anyone?), and for the love of God - ranged counter attack! Need I say more? Succubi DO NOT need something in addition to kick *** as they come in default! Get it?


5) Liches are still kicking. Get Tactics and you win an additional deployment line to shield them, if necessary.

So yet again - a unit that is semi-good and one that if you want to defend you need a specific hero ability - you *have* to get it in order to make the most of the unit - how non-one-dimensional, isn't it? What if tactics never comes up? What do I do then if I *have* to play defensively as you put it? Balanced? Competitive? Really?

Spell casting of the liches is supposed to be an alternative to simply shooting with them, right, how tactical http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Problem is when you see what is it that they can cast you will almost never bother doing anything but shooting with them - i.e. a (semi-)useless ability, wait a second, this sort of becomes a trend for this faction... Have a look at the other faction shooters €" small units (which means that they CAN be defended without having to rely on luck and hero abilities), tons of perks like chain strike, ranged retaliation, no ranged penalty, caster of useful spells, etc.

So - the traditional Inferno comparison - what do we get here - Nightmares! Fast, good hitter, decreases morale to units next to it - seems a good tactical unit to me with an ability that makes sense and is quite useful. You can even boost the weekly unit number with a building - convenient. Liches would have been good enough if they were a SMALL UNIT, but they are not!


6) The Wraiths. Harm Touch will not only kill a unit, it will remove all beneficial effects from the target as well which is not that bad considering there are much more beneficial effects than just SPELLS.

Harm touch is usefull - don't say - I will sacrifice the turn of the whole stack in order to kill 1 (one) unit and remove all beneficial effects from a single (one) stack - how useful indeed, especially when compared to say, Balors (Pit Lords or whatever they are called now), which happen to kill this one unit with the vorpal sword ability every single attack and happen to be VERY good area of effect caster units. Can you guess which unit is more useful on the battlefield? Harm touch is not even offensive €" you cannot move AND perform it €" how much worse can it get?


7) The Dragons. As far as I remember it's not the first time that the highest level unit is not your prime killer. However, the Phantom Dragon comes with an additional cursing attack that will lay a debuff (on highest level) onto the target - not that bad either considering you'll get 50% more level 7s than everyone else and pretty cheap at that.

It's not the prime killer for sure, it's not even the secondary the way it seems. The cursing attack - oh, how useful, for a tier 7 unit!!! The building cost to have them is prohibitive enough and then you have to upgrade it, right? Tell me why would I spent so much in order to have them - for the cursing attack and because it is a flyer unit? Seriously? At least in HoMM3 they reduced the enemy morale by a bit and had aging, which is MUCH more usefull than the cursing attack (which was a secondary ability of the death knight, secondary!).

If you think the cursing attack is oh so useful consider the corresponding Inferno unit - the Arch Devil, which can raise Balors instead and which we already saw are much more useful a unit. It's not just the stats that are better, it's the abilities that come with them. More of less useful units with no abilities to speak of is worse than fewer units that are both stronger and can help tactically on the battlefield. Weaker and numerous units means more of them lost per battle which in return might mean that they are more expensive in the end as you will always lose some of them per battle in order to curse enemy stacks! Comparing the cursing attack to the titans€ ranged attack, archangels€ resurrection, archdevils abilities and balor raising and the like you can (or maybe *you* can€t) how much weaker dragons are as a whole, numerous or not. At least give them a -2 (and -1 to the non-upgraded version) to enemy morale constant ability and I might start to like them!


Since Necropolis will have a HELL of shooting power (if you play them right), Necropolis is defensive in nature. The skellies take up only one space so you can easily keep them out of range while the Liches will force the opposition to disperse. So the opponent must attack; sadly for the opponent, if they come the Necro shooter will deal double damage. The other troops will attrition the opponent down.

Necro is a shooter defendign faction - no kidding as to defend the liches I need a special hero skill and even then it is not that easy as liches are a big unit (i.e. hard to defend), skellies go down in numbers (try playing the way you describe vs the Forest faction and tell me which one is made to play defensively relying on shooter units, please!). Or take Succubi for example - which one will be better at attricion with Balors' casting and Inferno gating vs Necro's low initiative?

In the duel mode 160 skeleton archers (or so) kill single digit enemy shooter units per turn so I WILL need thousands! of them in order to be competitive since my hero is a magic one, not might. We were talking about Necro not being a one-dimensional faction or something? Funny...


That does NOT factor in any hero skill, spell, ability and town building advantages that are too numerous to name them here.
So where the freaking hell is Necropolis not competetive?

The way I see it - where the hell IS Necropolis competitive? Which tier other than tier 1? Why do I *HAVE* to have certain hero abilities (like tactics) in order to stand a chance at all? What happens if I€m not lucky (ghosts get hit and die, tactics never shows up to be picked up, etc.)? Does the whole faction have to rely on luck in order to win? If so how much satisfaction is there to know that you won because a random generator was on your side this particular game?


Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
What I understand is, you don't care much about whether Necropolis is competetive, you care more about having a killer unit that ROCKS (like in, EACH faction should have a killer unit that rocks).
I can understand that.
But please, just demand THAT, then.

Are you playing dumb or you can€t read? Or maybe you don€t want to?

Jolly-Joker
04-17-2006, 11:50 AM
Final Boss, my post was directed to Phoenix. At this point I think that you will be competetive in multiplayer.
Phoenix, the problem is that you don't know too much about the game at this point.
All I say is, you may just want to wait for the game and see how things are really working out, before you start a riot based on none too many facts.
Oh, and Naskonni, did you play the game already?

Naskonni
04-17-2006, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
All I say is, you may just want to wait for the game and see how things are really working out, before you start a riot based on none too many facts.
Oh, and Naskonni, did you play the game already?

The duel? Yes!

Did you read my "riot" post above? Please answer the questions and reassure me how wrong I am - you have no idea how pleased that would make me, because observing the units in action in the duel (however limited an overview that gives), and what the unit abilities worth is (and will be in the full release most probably), I am really, REALLY not convinced that Necro is competitive - i.e. I imagine a full lineup of a Necropolis army and a corresponding one of a different faction and in all honesty cannot convince myself that with the current units, the lack of abilities and numerous weaknesses this faction stands an adequate chance, i.e. - it is not competitive enough.

What I want in reality is for the devs to consider the suggestions here, test whatever they deem constructive and implement it for all reasons posted in the thread. I don't want to buy the game AND THEN have to wait for this to happen. If this was the ideology of the day we would have had the game already, however buggy it would have been, so thanks, but no, thanks - I prefer to make my point in advance!

Over and out!

Plemenit
04-17-2006, 12:07 PM
Eh, of course it's a major dissapointment for all necro fans (including me) that a creature that looks so unbelievably great (Wraith!) has such poor special abilities. It's a pity. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Where is the supposed side random effect of wraith attack that takes all special abilities from the strucked creatures?

Maybe its attack could have a chance to lower magic resistance, defence, damage, attack, initiative, speed.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif By a small amount of course.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

phoenixzs
04-17-2006, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Final Boss, my post was directed to Phoenix. At this point I think that you will be competetive in multiplayer.
Phoenix, the problem is that you don't know too much about the game at this point.
All I say is, you may just want to wait for the game and see how things are really working out, before you start a riot based on none too many facts.
Oh, and Naskonni, did you play the game already?
The demo explains much in my opinion.In my language there is proverb "the town that is seen does not need any guides to reach".There some points pretty much obvious about this lineup.And I also agree with Naskonni in some part very much:Even if a castle is weak but numerous that shouldnt mean that their abilities should be underpowered.Abilities are usually closely related to being usefull like flying which doesnt help doing more damage or surviving but helps a lot.Every faction has below and above average units currently nearly all necro units are below average and "even" with higher growth numbers they are not competitive aganist other factions.What we want is a balanced faction, not overpowering.Variety and some felixiability for different strategies is needed.

MrOELOELOE
04-17-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2) The special effect of the plague zombies is cumulative; Gargoyles and Demons are hardly better, but still all those have their use.

Yes, if you ever get to move the zombies and something is three squares away in order for you to hit and the zombies survive long enough as to move, AT ALL. Demons are hardly better? Oh, really €" get real! Because of the fact that they can "gate" anywhere on the map and you get absolutely free units (every single battle) that spawn wherever you want (behind walls, next to archers, etc.) is MUCH better if you ask me. Their "explode" ability is quite useful too and is not spent when gating is used. So sorry, but I'll take demons over zombies ANY day of the week. Try better next time!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gating is an inferno ability, NOT a demon ability. Compare gating with necromancy, not when comparingn creatures.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">5) Liches are still kicking. Get Tactics and you win an additional deployment line to shield them, if necessary.

So yet again - a unit that is semi-good and one that if you want to defend you need a specific hero ability - you *have* to get it in order to make the most of the unit - how non-one-dimensional, isn't it? What if tactics never comes up? What do I do then if I *have* to play defensively as you put it? Balanced? Competitive? Really?

Spell casting of the liches is supposed to be an alternative to simply shooting with them, right, how tactical http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Problem is when you see what is it that they can cast you will almost never bother doing anything but shooting with them - i.e. a (semi-)useless ability, wait a second, this sort of becomes a trend for this faction... Have a look at the other faction shooters €" small units (which means that they CAN be defended without having to rely on luck and hero abilities), tons of perks like chain strike, ranged retaliation, no ranged penalty, caster of useful spells, etc.

So - the traditional Inferno comparison - what do we get here - Nightmares! Fast, good hitter, decreases morale to units next to it - seems a good tactical unit to me with an ability that makes sense and is quite useful. You can even boost the weekly unit number with a building - convenient. Liches would have been good enough if they were a SMALL UNIT, but they are not! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

- They are big and easily blockable, so they cant shoot anymore.

- They have useless spells, so people will always use the shooting.

Now give these two points u guys keep bringing up some thought... -> "Wow, I can actually use spells when I cant use my shooting ability". Great unit, that lich. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Harm touch is usefull - don't say - I will sacrifice the turn of the whole stack in order to kill 1 (one) unit and remove all beneficial effects from a single (one) stack - how useful indeed, especially when compared to say, Balors (Pit Lords or whatever they are called now), which happen to kill this one unit with the vorpal sword ability every single attack and happen to be VERY good area of effect caster units. Can you guess which unit is more useful on the battlefield? Harm touch is not even offensive €" you cannot move AND perform it €" how much worse can it get?

I have played one duel as necromancer and the harm touch was the better choice in three occasions in that duel. It is a useful ability at certain times. What do you want, every creature an ability with equal strength, how bout some diversity?

Anyway, Its by definition quite useless to do a one on one comparison with the creatures from a different alignment. There is far to much else in the equation.

Naskonni
04-17-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2) The special effect of the plague zombies is cumulative; Gargoyles and Demons are hardly better, but still all those have their use.

Yes, if you ever get to move the zombies and something is three squares away in order for you to hit and the zombies survive long enough as to move, AT ALL. Demons are hardly better? Oh, really €" get real! Because of the fact that they can "gate" anywhere on the map and you get absolutely free units (every single battle) that spawn wherever you want (behind walls, next to archers, etc.) is MUCH better if you ask me. Their "explode" ability is quite useful too and is not spent when gating is used. So sorry, but I'll take demons over zombies ANY day of the week. Try better next time!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gating is an inferno ability, NOT a demon ability. Compare gating with necromancy, not when comparingn creatures. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gating can be done by demons (and others), which makes it a creature ability, how good that ability is when performed depends on the hero skill level with it and faction buildings, but it IS a creature ability nonetheless. Comparing it to necromancy, which has absolutely nothing to do with units (not a single unit can take advantage of it on the battle screen), is erm, wrong?

On the other hand in a way necromancy is indirectly experessed on the battlefield too as the quantity of skeleton archers is dependent on it so both are present there if you will. Gating is still a unit ability though and necromancy is not.


Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
Now give these two points u guys keep bringing up some thought... -> "Wow, I can actually use spells when I cant use my shooting ability". Great unit, that lich. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I have played one duel as necromancer and the harm touch was the better choice in three occasions in that duel. It is a useful ability at certain times. What do you want, every creature an ability with equal strength, how bout some diversity?

I'll regard your Lich advice as a very bad joke, because frankly if you thought this is a valid argument then I shouldn't waste time with you...

The second - harm touch was the better choice? Let me guess - you had 1-2 Wraiths left and could kill a unit of that tier 6 or 7 stack next to you so you used it instead and died the next turn? Yes, how useful indeed and what a great argument - I see the light now but I still prefer Pit Lords with their "slightly more" useful abilities that happen to be useful every single battle instead of a few selected cases just before you would have lost anyway...

MrOELOELOE
04-17-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
then I shouldn't waste time with you...


Please don't, what do I know?

Your arguments: I want abilities that are super-*** kicking and useful 100% of the time, cause other alignments have them too.

My argument: All the units have something special that adds variety and can be used in certain situation when the need is there.

Naskonni
04-17-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naskonni:
then I shouldn't waste time with you...


Please don't, what do I know?

Your arguments: I want abilities that are super-*** kicking and useful 100% of the time, cause other alignments have them too.

My argument: All the units have something special that adds variety and can be used in certain situation when the need is there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you meant the Lich advice as a valid argument? Sheesh...

My argument - there is hardly anything special about Necropolis units and thus hardly enough variety, but I want abilities that would fix that situation and be useful for a change.

Do try to present valid arguments next time ("oh, I used it and it was useful so you are wrong" is NOT a valid argument without even giving an example where and how you did so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), or otherwise arguing with you IS a waste of time for what matters here are arguments...

MrOELOELOE
04-17-2006, 12:57 PM
I'll talk to a rock, thats probably a better idea.

Val-Gaav
04-17-2006, 01:35 PM
@Naskoni:

If u think that gating is a creature ability then think again .... Think about it twice ...

Gating is the faction/ hero ability....
The same is with necromancy that gives skeletons ...

Oh my maybe elemental chains are also unit ability ??? I mean units perform them ...

LOL ...

..........................................

and now my opinion on topic ...

abilities like necromancy or diplomacy can never be well balanced ... It will be unbeatable on some maps while on other it will suck ...

It was already a mistake made by devs that this is in the game .... thus becouse of necromancy necropolis units were made weak ...

IMO it is the necro that should have ability like gatting that would raise trooops only for the time of combat ... This would be possible to balance ... and in that way necro troops could be stronger.

Also I think that there will be a lot of problems with towns specials .... I cannot say which will turn out as the overpowered , but I'm sure that some of them will get BAN on multiplayer ...

In h3 NEcro , Conflux and diplomacy are banned on MP ... So I do wonder what will be banned in h5 :P

Well I'm off ..

dimon3000
04-17-2006, 02:35 PM
FYI, Folklein from Nival agreed that duel isn't balanced. Confirmation here (http://forums.nival.com/rus/showthread.php?t=32734&page=13) (use babelfish). So I think that they'll fix it (duel at least) in final version.

insidiousfrost
04-17-2006, 03:02 PM
Necropolis, always Necropolis! Everyone always complains about what faction?

That's it necropolis. I feel like this is HOMM3 part 2 discussion of why necropolis sucks, but ultimately doesnt because you will find out how competitive necropolis really is.

Each race was always balanced differently from the dawn of HOMM time. Not all factions had the best armies nor the best hero abilities. Necropolis NEVER had the best army, I'm sorry... its units were always lackluster compared to the rather unstrategic haven armies that trounced newbie players because it had a great and balanced army, but not much else.

This is what Necropolis has always had going for it. Weak army.... your army sucks live with it. Awesome hero abilities and town mods. Necropolis is so awesome because of the numbers of its units, and before you say that it isnt an advantage let me tell you how it is.

There are a few abilities that heros have, in fact easy to get ones that affect units by the unit and not by the stack. That +2 hp comes in alot more handy when you have 2000 Skele archers vs 10 Archangels.... thats um... wow 4000 more HP?! You people need to start looking at "Stacks" because stacks are what the game is about.

Advantage of large stacks.

Larger stacks of more numerous creatures drop stats more slowly, but generally do every single round. Killing 200 archers is generally harder than killing 1 arch angel. So that stack of 10 is going to lose 10% of its power faster than yours which gives you an immediate advantage. Large stacks of creatures with proper tactics make them very competitive.

Necropolis has ALWAYS been tuned around carrying the necromancey ability... why? because its what the undeads do you numbnuts lol. Anyways... I'm gonna trust JJ and say that Necropolis is as it always was... a heavily Hero dependant mass army faction based on bazillions of skeletons.

Final_Boss
04-17-2006, 03:40 PM
Final Boss, my post was directed to Phoenix.
Sorry then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, I get confused when I´ve seen your message without mentioning nobody
___________________

I agree with some people that says that necro is an one-dimensional faction. At the moment, the philosophy of necr³polis is: My troops only are useful when they die. It doesn´t matter, I can reanimate more skeletons. Lets go to see this more thoroughly:

- Almost all necro creatures have abilities that only are useful when they get hurt, decimated, or blockaded. Vampires´s life drain only are useful when some of them are destroyed; Spectres´s mana drain, the same; and Wraiths´s harm touch only is useful when they are decimated and use it is better than normal attack. In addition, archlichs spells are there for the moment in wich they get blockaded by an attacking creature, and also, zombies are a creature thought only to receive damage.

- This doesn´t finish here. You unquestionablily need a skeleton legion equipped with chilling steel, and if you get Chilling Bones, your necro troops will be far more useful dying than hitting...


Creatures thought to die NEVER can be good. For God´s shake, even it´s boring!

phoenixzs
04-17-2006, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by insidiousfrost:
Necropolis, always Necropolis! Everyone always complains about what faction?

That's it necropolis. I feel like this is HOMM3 part 2 discussion of why necropolis sucks, but ultimately doesnt because you will find out how competitive necropolis really is.

Each race was always balanced differently from the dawn of HOMM time. Not all factions had the best armies nor the best hero abilities. Necropolis NEVER had the best army, I'm sorry... its units were always lackluster compared to the rather unstrategic haven armies that trounced newbie players because it had a great and balanced army, but not much else.

This is what Necropolis has always had going for it. Weak army.... your army sucks live with it. Awesome hero abilities and town mods. Necropolis is so awesome because of the numbers of its units, and before you say that it isnt an advantage let me tell you how it is.

There are a few abilities that heros have, in fact easy to get ones that affect units by the unit and not by the stack. That +2 hp comes in alot more handy when you have 2000 Skele archers vs 10 Archangels.... thats um... wow 4000 more HP?! You people need to start looking at "Stacks" because stacks are what the game is about.

Advantage of large stacks.

Larger stacks of more numerous creatures drop stats more slowly, but generally do every single round. Killing 200 archers is generally harder than killing 1 arch angel. So that stack of 10 is going to lose 10% of its power faster than yours which gives you an immediate advantage. Large stacks of creatures with proper tactics make them very competitive.

Necropolis has ALWAYS been tuned around carrying the necromancey ability... why? because its what the undeads do you numbnuts lol. Anyways... I'm gonna trust JJ and say that Necropolis is as it always was... a heavily Hero dependant mass army faction based on bazillions of skeletons.

Bothered to read any of the posts?
Necropolis was never weak in my opinion.Ever heard of tanks called dreadknights or wampires?
Liches are also very good.Okay bone dragons were weak.But only thing that did some job and was numerous was skeletons back in the series.

KingAlamar
04-17-2006, 07:46 PM
As I've said before we shouldn't really judge balance by what's going on in duel mode because the presets have NOTHING AT ALL to do with a normal army composition.

I also suspect that the skills chosen for the heroes are sub-optimal too.

Until we really can test the factions I don't believe that we'll get a good understanding of the balance equation.

Polaris2013
04-17-2006, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by KingAlamar:
As I've said before we shouldn't really judge balance by what's going on in duel mode because the presets have NOTHING AT ALL to do with a normal army composition.

I also suspect that the skills chosen for the heroes are sub-optimal too.

Until we really can test the factions I don't believe that we'll get a good understanding of the balance equation.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif QFE

Final_Boss
04-17-2006, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by KingAlamar:
As I've said before we shouldn't really judge balance by what's going on in duel mode because the presets have NOTHING AT ALL to do with a normal army composition.

I also suspect that the skills chosen for the heroes are sub-optimal too.

Until we really can test the factions I don't believe that we'll get a good understanding of the balance equation.
But the way duel also serves to see the balance, you only have to check stats, abilities and how work in battle, the amount of creatures not concerns.

Also you can see what hero´s abilities are affecting the creatures, so everything is very simple to compare.

XyZspineZyX
04-17-2006, 11:30 PM
Hi all,
Actually I didn't read the whole thread and sorry for that. Although I agree with the main idea (that necro creatures are weak) I really hated the incorporeal ability only because it was random. I hate random variables floating around in a game! The was cool though, but probably overpowered still. I have the following humble idea of mine to boost Wraights, which are very cool units btw. Boost the harm-touch ability such that:

1- It kills 1 enemy for each 20 units of Wraights, but at least 1. So 1 for 1-39, 2 for 40-59, 3 for 60-79, etc.

2- The killed creatures form a new stack of friendly Wraights, number determined as follows.
-- At most equal number of Wraights appear.
-- Total hit points of the new stack is at most equal to total hit points of killed creatures.

Example: 45 Wraights harm-touch 10 Angels. 2 Angels die. A new stack of 2 Wraights form.

Example: 45 Wraights harm-touch 20 Djinn Sultans. 2 Djinn Sultans die. A new stack of a single Wraight form with hit points of 80.

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 12:56 AM
Frankly, reading all this I don't know what the fuss is all about. What I'm reading out of this is that FinalBoss is worried whether his favorite town will be competetive. The duel hero is pretty weak and what he sees, creaturewise, is not that impressive. I can understand that worry.
Insidiousfrost und dimon3000 have made their points as well: Necro is numbers (and Dungeon is quality, btw.) and the duel mode is NOT balanced and everyone knows this.
But some other people here seem to forget what we are talking abnout here: We are talking about a faction of dead meat, and it simply shouldn't be "quality". It's dead meat. Period. As opposed to the other factions there is no point in trying to "conserve" creatures, especially the low level creatures (because in game terms no one cares about a heap of dead meat. least of all the Necro dominating them); one of the basic Necro abilities will allow you to reanimate part of (and in practice all of the low level troops) your losses back into your ranks. So Necropolis is a faction where a "life" doesn't matter, simply because the troops are animated dead. You'll be most careful with the Dungeon units because each and every single one counts, and if a Blood Fury dies, it's awful. However, if you battle a living stack and lose 20 Zombies (or even Skeletons) in the process - what the hell: you'll get them back and additional Skellys as well.
So if your favorite faction is a bunch of dead meat you shouldn't complain, if it looks that way and you have to treat and play it that way.

Final_Boss
04-18-2006, 01:36 AM
But Jolly-Joker, you can raise skeletons and some fallen troops after battle, but what happens when you lose troops in final battle? you lose. I know that Animate Dead is a "cheap" spell, but necromancers have few mana. On the other hand, do necromancers be condemned to use Raise Dead all along?

I don´t want to see that necropolis ends just like fortress or inferno in HoMM3, turned into a second-class-faction.

Azure_Slayer
04-18-2006, 01:41 AM
only numbers matter for necropolis

H5forem
04-18-2006, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Polaris2013:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KingAlamar:
As I've said before we shouldn't really judge balance by what's going on in duel mode because the presets have NOTHING AT ALL to do with a normal army composition.

I also suspect that the skills chosen for the heroes are sub-optimal too.

Until we really can test the factions I don't believe that we'll get a good understanding of the balance equation.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif QFE </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I belive that vampires need to be a lot more strong... just lower the growth to 3 like the liches

anyone see the Death Knight - Level 6+ Neutral ?
it looks amazing... (and have the H2 genie ability) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/neutral_creatures.shtml (http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/neutral_creatures.shtml)

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 02:17 AM
As I said, I understand your worries - you've made them plain. (Btw, for me Inferno and Fortress were no second class factions, but that's not important).
Whether in mp or sp, alot depends on the play your faction has. As I remember it, in H3 you basically tried to minmize losses until you had the Vampire Lords, prefarably early 2nd week (on the very hard and impossible difficulty levels). Then you went hunting with them and all depended on the neutral stacks.
Clearly, that has changed: you don't need to wait for them anymore.
Here's a word on difficulty. Difficulty level will not only decrease starting money and res it will raise the numbers of neutral stacks. On heroic diff, your Sawmill may be guarded by 60 Master Gremlins or two dozen Assassins on day 1.
The last H5 necro game I started (for the localization process) had me a bit thinking. My starting hero was the Zombie specialist. One starting tactic for Necro in H5 was to build the Graveyard and grade it up in turn 2, hunting about with Skelly Archers and a bodyguard. Now, with the Zombie specialist that wasn't possible anymore - not enough Skeletons for that, it would seem. So I changed tactics, started with a mage guild, left Skeletons out of the army (possible in tactic mode) and sent only the Zombies in - which had no problem defeating them. Sure I lost 10 or so. But so what?
Now, you couldn't do that in H 3 with Straker. Or maybe you could do it once, but that's it. That game develops nicely even though I face many Gargoyle stacks. The Vamps are not dominating anymore - which is no wonder: 10 Vampires cannot beat 40 Minotaurs (not to mention the upgraded version). Fact is. Necro works well as a combined army in the low levels. The Spectres are pretty cool. Ghosts are vulnerable IF the opponent hits, and Vampires have to tread carefully as well. Frenzy will work wonders for their damage capabilities.
Now before people start complaing about needing abilities to bolster cfreatures - that's how the game works; you'll have to do that for the magic as well. The basic theme of this game is that your hero must have a clear idea of what to do with the hero to support creatures, magic and so on as effectively as possible.
On another board someone asked Chuckles why he'd lost the demo map (the Inferno single map) and Chuckles made a pretty cool analysis about the why. This was one of his points:
"Lastly...you focused your skills on Dark Magic for some reason. Look at your stats...you should be focused more on might oriented skills. While inferno does have some nice spell skills...its one of the most Might-oriented towns in the game IMO. Also, war machines...decent skill, but not very useful in this map. You'd be much better off with offense, defense, logistics, luck ...something along those lines. Ones that will help with your main heroes true focus...gating.
Offense will grant you some nice bonuses to your troops attacks, and frenzy will really help out your imps & overseers attacks. Taking frenzy will open up the way to critical strike (not very useful) and power of haste. Mass haste is an EXCELLENT spell...and now it's free too.
Sorcery is a starting skill with this hero...so leverage it. You'll start with wisdom...this grants you access to Summon Creatures at level 3. Get that mage guild up to 3 quickly...it'll help save time considerably. Next, focus on the main skill until you get Consume Corpse (from Gating) and get offered Exploding Corpses. This is a nice little bonus. When you consume corpses for mana regeneration...they also blow up and kill enemy troops. :O)
Luck is useful, but if you're going to go for it...then shoot for Critical Gating. You'll need Lucky strike as a pre-requisite. Critical Gating gives a 15-30% chance to gate twice as many troops as normal. But for only 15-30% you might be better served with something else.
Logistics, this is a must have IMO. For abilities, get pathfinding, then Quick Gating, then Teleport Assault. Ignore Navigation and Scouting.
Defense is yet another must have IMO. The advanced abilities are nothing great, but Evasion reduces damage from ranged attacks by 20%, and Toughness is a MUST HAVE for Inferno. Pump up those imps and overseers...not just them, but thier gated counterparts too. VERY useful..."

What I want to say is, that you can't play mechanically in H5; sure, Vamps are not the dominating figures anymore... but neither are Marksmen or Master Gremlins or any other of the key creatures of H3. You need them all and they ARE useful, each in their own way, whether you like that or not. If you have beaten a seemingly invincible Druid stack with GARGOYLES you'll know what I mean.
Lastly, the Raise Dead spell is low level, it will help you, but since Necro will be plagued by low knowledge it will a HELP in the beginning, not more. If you are lucky, you'll get a second point, allowing to cast it 3 times with full mana - which will be great. One knowledge will allow one cast only - so that's not more than a help.
With Summoning Magic Raise Dead will later on (with more troops) be VERY effective. So actually there are lots of ways and STRATEGIES to enhance your army and your creatures - which is what this game is all about.

phoenixzs
04-18-2006, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Frankly, reading all this I don't know what the fuss is all about. What I'm reading out of this is that FinalBoss is worried whether his favorite town will be competetive. The duel hero is pretty weak and what he sees, creaturewise, is not that impressive. I can understand that worry.
Insidiousfrost und dimon3000 have made their points as well: Necro is numbers (and Dungeon is quality, btw.) and the duel mode is NOT balanced and everyone knows this.
But some other people here seem to forget what we are talking abnout here: We are talking about a faction of dead meat, and it simply shouldn't be "quality". It's dead meat. Period. As opposed to the other factions there is no point in trying to "conserve" creatures, especially the low level creatures (because in game terms no one cares about a heap of dead meat. least of all the Necro dominating them); one of the basic Necro abilities will allow you to reanimate part of (and in practice all of the low level troops) your losses back into your ranks. So Necropolis is a faction where a "life" doesn't matter, simply because the troops are animated dead. You'll be most careful with the Dungeon units because each and every single one counts, and if a Blood Fury dies, it's awful. However, if you battle a living stack and lose 20 Zombies (or even Skeletons) in the process - what the hell: you'll get them back and additional Skellys as well.
So if your favorite faction is a bunch of dead meat you shouldn't complain, if it looks that way and you have to treat and play it that way.
Its just not about the duel mode its the overall balance that matters.You are just talking about some tactics in the first months.okay first month is very important but since the creature numbers are pretty low(player army I mean)tactics will be very different from tactics in late game.What we need is late game balance also.Sure there are alot of tactics and opportunities in the necromancer army in first weeks but the true balance is between player vs player battles.Simply a faction sooner or later should be in overall be equall in power in late game with other factions if the cards are played right(I mean considiring all bonuses heroes tactics etc).Always talking is around about the low levels but high levels are pretty obiviously very important.You cannot make much use of low levels when high levels outsmart,outmanevour your highlevels and the turn comes to them to be beaten.
Okay necro is numerous and also should be in low levels thats a characteristic.Because they are numerous they ought to be cheap so cheapness is not an advantage but a side effect of being numerous so people can buy them.So we can ask ourselves do I get equal amount of usability from this castle in one weeks available with others?I think not.

Always including necromancy in your calculations but in that case Naskonni's argument is pretty solid with including "gating" inside the equation.People accused him for putting hero specialities into the equation so why not accuse people who put necromancy into the equation?But In my opinion they should be in the equation and I ın my previous post already explainede that thats not a "bonus" advantage to balance out the fact that necropolis is weak.
The other castles will trample with their better troops over necro troops maybe not with 1-1 fights like 1st level beats 1st level but usability and overall.
Being numerous should balance their weakness in initiative,movement,attack,defense and damage but being numerous usually doesnt balance usability.And no nerfing or drawback should be done in creature abilities.They should have equal abilities but instead of being 3 creatures the same statics should be divided into 5 creatures lets say.Already movement and initiative is no turn back situations,how numerous you are you are not getting faster somewhere.So being numerous could only balance attack-defense hitpoint and damage roughly said.
Designers should take these points into account.

Also your examples are all based on low-level creature tactics,what we need is freedom of tactics at late game.

Val-Gaav
04-18-2006, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
I don´t want to see that necropolis ends just like fortress or inferno in HoMM3, turned into a second-class-faction.

Fortress was not a second class faction... It can compete with all the other faction .... while it is particulary weak against castle and also has problem with barberians ...

While inferno has problem with anything in h3 and is a faction that almost nobody wants to play ...

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 04:42 AM
Well, you have to build those high level dwellings first, don't you think so? There has been a shift back from the almighty level 7 (4) back to a more equally distributed strength (and if you think about it, for Necro this has always been the casehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So level 7 comes into play rather late. Ordinarily, (and let's not talk about Angels; Haven doesn't need to build them at all), when you have something like 5 Devils it will already be week 6, at least on higher difficulty, which is not that much. Finding the 20000 Gold to upgrade the Devils to Archdevils may prove impossible up to that point: you need a lot of money to HIRE and you have in general a lot more options. You could even say, going for the level 7 is a risky business, depending on map and situation, because you may not have the necessary time to accumulate enough creatures. Those 5 devils will cost you something like 30000 bucks - which is a full week's income. An opponent putting those 30000 in hiring out the complete level 1-6 with one or two key upgrades might blast the 5 devils simply away.
So actually the level 7 units may have a lot less weight - with one possible exception and that is Sylvan. If the Sylvans manage their resource situation they MAY go for level 7 early, but will have most probably less creatures then (most probably Castle and/or Citadel will come later because they cannot go for noth level 7 AND Citadel/Castle early).
So the "final" army will look different from what you know so far. Less level 7; comparably more powerful level 6 (try doing damage to an Ancient treant that has been given the Defend command), and lot more and more useful low levels, simply because a) you will have more than in H3 (you wouldn't have many Familiars in H3 for example) and b) they will simply do more damage and be tougher because there are specific abilities designed to boost especially the low level creatures.
Now, that said, I'm sure not the last word has been spoken in terms of stats, prices and so on; we might see small changes in patches to come, but BASICALLY things are sound.

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Val-Gaav:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
I don´t want to see that necropolis ends just like fortress or inferno in HoMM3, turned into a second-class-faction.

Fortress was not a second class faction... It can compete with all the other faction .... while it is particulary weak against castle and also has problem with barberians ...

While inferno has problem with anything in h3 and is a faction that almost nobody wants to play ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, come on. Inferno is great. The great thing with H3 was that the 2 new factions played so differently than the rest known from 2. So it wasn't the standard shoot-things-to-**** strategy with them which seemed to be enough to discourage lots of people to try and discover things with them.

Zamolxis108
04-18-2006, 05:07 AM
Actually Inferno was my favorite Evil faction in H3. They were just a bit underbalanced, but I used to see that as a challange. But for the rest they were "cool" enough to give me a good feeling if I played them, as compared to Necro (first 3 levels + unupgraded Vampire pretty boring) or Dungeon (somehow not as cool as the H2 Warlock).

Strangely enough, among the Neutral factions, my favorite was again the slightly underbalanced one - Fortress. If you weren't lucky to get Teleport at the Guild (let's say Water Magic was easier) and some swampy terrain on the map, you could say you are in a disadvantage. But again, I don't think it was because of the challange actually, but more (same as Inferno) just because I loved the feeling I got while playing with them.

HealingAura
04-18-2006, 05:29 AM
I hated Inferno in Heroes 3, they were too boring and useless - a shooter that hits my army, and a useless demon raiser (both of them, the demon and the demon raiser, were useless actually). I liked the castle the most and then stronghold. After those two necropolis was my favorite but now it's just looks good since their creatures are not even worth buying compared to other creatures in their level.

Fortress was fun to play with but it was hard to win with it since their creatures weren't that useful (but was one of the coolest towns in Heroes 3). Also, one shooter for this town made it too melee based which is a big disadvantage.

Inferno improved a lot in Heroes V, they made it useful and interesting. Necropolis got weakened. Haven stayed like it used to be. Sylvan got stronger. Dungeon changed completly so I can't even compare. And I'm not sure about Academy.

Val-Gaav
04-18-2006, 06:07 AM
Well the fact is this :

I've seen many online pro players playing and winning with fortress...

On the other hand absolutly none play inferno ...

And yes it's great that fortress has a totally diffrent startegy with only one poor shooter... However it is clearly better then inferno ... Inferno has no good might hero speciality while fortress has great Tazar ...
I love playing with fortress ....

BTW
1) fortress is a little bit underpowered
2)Inferno is a lot underpowered > If players are of the same skill level inferno has no chances of winning against Castle , Rampart, dungeon ... etc

Fortress has hydrass in 1 week with castle always ! ... Inferno does not have devils with castle in 1 week .... Well if u get lucky and start with gogs dwel build you may build devils+castle ... Still Hydras are cheaper and easier to build.

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 06:24 AM
Looks like you play with too much money and resources. You might have noted that on those silly money levels people tend to play, all the differences in resource and money needs are useless. And while this may sound arrogant or something I usually don't bother to discuss about strategy with people that maintain the idea you could have competetive play if you start with money allowing you to build level 7 in week one (or hire a ton of heroes which is basically the same). That is clearly a waste of time.
If you REALLY want a competetive game adjust the starting money to 5000 gold, 5 w/o and 2 of the other resources. And then come again with any ideas about how good or bad the towns are, please.

Pitsu
04-18-2006, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by Val-Gaav:
2)Inferno is a lot underpowered > If players are of the same skill level inferno has no chances of winning against Castle , Rampart, dungeon ...

ROFL.
But we are way off-topic.

Val-Gaav
04-18-2006, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
I usually don't bother to discuss about strategy with people that maintain the idea you could have competetive play if you start with money allowing you to build level 7 in week one (or hire a ton of heroes which is basically the same). That is clearly a waste of time.
I play on 130% ... yes and i do build 7 lev in 1 week ... The higher difficulty or even playing on impossible is for me a waste of time ... On 130% most of my games end in 4 week .. sometimes 1 month ... Playing on higher dif would increase this time ... which neither me nor my oponent have time to have such a long game ...

But if u want my opinion :
On expert and impossible inferno is also weak ... It has poor lev 1 , poor lev 2 , poor level 4... Only cerbers are good ..

Compare this to rampart - Great centaurs + elfs quickly build after you get some wood ...

Towns like rampart are great even if they cannot build 7 level in first week ... On the other hand stronghold or fortress has absolutly almost nothing besides the ability to build 7 level in first week ... If u do not your cooked ... That's why on harder difficulty this towns are out...

Dungeon ? This town will also do great ... You took for your hero Shakti(with tactics), buy another hero , and you end up with over 100 troglodytes...then you build upgr for troglies , then for harpies ... etc




If you REALLY want a competetive game adjust the starting money to 5000 gold, 5 w/o and 2 of the other resources. And then come again with any ideas about how good or bad the towns are, please.
I do not remember such settings ... As long as I know expert gives you 4 other rosource ... impossibile none ..

Zamolxis108
04-18-2006, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by Pitsu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Val-Gaav:
2)Inferno is a lot underpowered > If players are of the same skill level inferno has no chances of winning against Castle , Rampart, dungeon ...
ROFL.
But we are way off-topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
He he. Indeed we are. But there's not much else to say about the H5 Necro anyway. JJ & others already explained that the situation is not that bad, if you take time to get to know it a bit more. For the rest, we're just bumping the thread, so actually they should be happy about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (j/k)

Few comments to the last posts:

About getting Castle & Hydras in the 1st week - don't know. I've only played SP and only on Impossible in the last 4 years, and Castle + L7 dwelling is an impossible think in the first week.

About Inferno heroes being weaker than others - I disagree. They have stats comparable with the others, and some of them even come with pretty good specials (including a couple of pretty powerful spells).

Val-Gaav
04-18-2006, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
I've only played SP and only on Impossible in the last 4 years, and Castle + L7 dwelling is an impossible think in the first week.

On impossible yes it's impossible .. but on 130% it always happens .... I for over last 4 years play only human vs human ... Not online but hot seats with some of my good fellows ...We play on some great maps from toh like battle for honor , boomerang , battle for glory, dangerzone ... This are ones of which I remember

>>>>>>>>>
As for back to topic .... There is no much to say about h5 necro ... If it is underpowered or not we will see after realese ... To judge it just over duel is not right ... Then after couple of months maybe we will get a balance patch from ubisoft/nival ... This is the way that great games like Starcraft were taken care off by developers/producers ...

Let us just hope the same will be with h5.

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 07:29 AM
Agree with the on-topic stuff.

Naskonni
04-18-2006, 07:32 AM
With all due respect could the people that want to discuss the H3 factions and their merit for online play do so in a separate thread? Thank you!

Joker, I'm quite amazed at how pointless examples you seem to give us, especially since the talk is mostly about higher level Necro units (Vamnpires and up) and so far I haven't seen a word of the use of Wraiths and Dragons in what you're saying - just some theorycrafting and how we are supposed to wait like sheep because nothing is final but on the other hand you are to be trusted that balance is there and all is ok under the sun? Not to mention not a single concrete argument to what has been posted till now - just general blah-blah.

Don't tell me about zombies and skellies - every single one that has enough experience with H3 will know what to expect - both are accepted as they are with remarks or not. We are talking about Wraiths and Dragons and ultimately Vampires with a bit of Lich as a spice. Tier 6 and 7 are prohibitively expensive and so far you have presented zero substantial arguments as to why I'm to believe that the faction is balanced on those levels and why the heck those units are supposed to be worth the investment, even though they are supposed to be cheaper than the other factions. To a lesser extent this is true for Liches and Vampires too!

Necro is mass army - who would be dumb enough to invest so much as to get tier 6 and a tier 7 just to dispose of them in a few battles??? And ALL of your examples on what external factors could "fix" this somewhat broken faction are chance factors - you might get the spells you talk about or may not (not under your control), you might get those hero skills early, late or never till the end of the game! Such things are not good argument points as to balance the faction - a whole faction cannot depend on so many wild variables in order to stand a chance, just like Ghost - a "cool" unit that is completely useless and a waste of money UNLESS YOU ARE LUCKY - in theory you might as well try to convince me that Ghosts alone might win you the game - there is a statistical probability that they will never get hit and thus kill everything on their own - your arguments are sometimes just as stupid. Where is the strategy here? I had a duel with a guy whose Ghost stack avoided 17 out of 20 attacks - he was damn lucky, but that did not depend on him and this example is a VERY poor one as to argue that the unit is a good one because I've had 3 matches in a row where my ghosts died the very first strike...

Your argument is: Necropolis is a great faction, you just have no idea how to use it and all unit shortcomings are offset if you get A *and* B *and* C *and* D *and* later get F *and* let's not forget G. You don't realize it but it seems that indirectly you are saying that the units are ****ish too (bar skeletons), every single one of them and in order to make them competitive we HAVE to get CERTAIN hero skills and spells. The problem is that WHETHER we will do that is not entirely dependent on US! There is no strategy in luck!

You are still to answer or give a valid example about Necro tier 6 and 7 units and why they are worth the investment to get them at all, because if you tell me not to do so, then you are just telling me that they are useless, which I've been saying all along, and which in turn means that if my opponent reaches these tiers I would have nothing to throw at him as opposition, because numerous but weak means that I'll be losing more money than him to achieve the same results, because... unlike Zombies I CANNOT afford to lose Wraiths every single battle, not to mention Dragons - the mass theory does not work very well on those price levels, especially since those units can hardly be used tactically at all, or their abilities are somewhat useful ONLY when they go into melee, which means units lost. The harm touch is not worth it - I can kill that tier 6/7 one unit with my hero too, for free http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif They might be weaker but I'd like to be able to use them for something else than weak tanks - give them some useful abilities! Even Dread knights did a better job at tanking and had better abilities than what the Wraith offers in both regards... There are no longer Tiers in Necro to compensate for the weakness of the others - they are either decicivly weaker or on par with the opposition - nothing is better, other than skeletons and only because of the numbers you will get them and that is because of Necromancy. All other tiers are like a cheap garniture around skellies at later stages. Additionally try to understand that the faction is supposed to be fun as well as competitive - a faction that plays the EXACT same way every single game because the whole army is strictly dependent on CERTAIN hero skills and a few spells makes for a very linear play and ultimately no fun whatsoever. In case you didn't get it this argument is separate from the one for competitiveness...

If you have nothing sensible to give as an argument be my guest to spare me the general stuff we already know... speak about higher tier Necro play, that's what's interesting here - take an example where the enemy has Treants guarding his Druids and Hunter and tell me how a typical Necro army with deal with this for example as Necro is supposedly fully competitive now, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 08:19 AM
Pretty selective reading you are doing. Why should I try to convince you when you don't want to be convinced because you are convinced that Necro sucks no matter what anyone is saying.
So go on and complain another month until you finally will see for yourself.
Until then you may get used to the idea that Heroes V is not Heroes III and that Heroes III tactics won't get you very far in V.
Moreover you must think the developers and testers are really blind if you think they played and developed and tested years and then come up with a Necropolis that can be beaten by anyone with ease - and which is plain to see after fighting a duel at that. How stupid do you think all of them to be?

Naskonni
04-18-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Pretty selective reading you are doing. Why should I try to convince you when you don't want to be convinced because you are convinced that Necro sucks no matter what anyone is saying.
So go on and complain another month until you finally will see for yourself.
Until then you may get used to the idea that Heroes V is not Heroes III and that Heroes III tactics won't get you very far in V.
Moreover you must think the developers and testers are really blind if you think they played and developed and tested years and then come up with a Necropolis that can be beaten by anyone with ease - and which is plain to see after fighting a duel at that. How stupid do you think all of them to be?

Well - a Joker you are, at least this post of yours is a joke. Jolly? No - more like a bad Joker if you ask me.

I want to be convinced but I'm not so dumb as to blindly trust you because *you* say that the faction is supposed to be balanced, even though you fail miserably at providing any valid argument as to why you seem so convinced.

I read selectively? No kidding - there are two page posts that answer every line of yours and the best you can do is come back with a one-liner like "Oh, Naskonni - have you played the game alrady?" Speak about irony and who reads selectively or rather who bothers reading at all...

Your posts are general stuff only - nothing concrete - for example what relevance WHATSOEVER has what Chuckles had to say about Inferno tactics and some guy that failed with it? What relevance does this have to the poor tier 6 and tier 7 Necro unit abilities? And in general posts like:


But Necropolis is competetive as it is.
OK, let me get this straight. No one here has any idea how Necropolis has evolved after the beta. You may see some stats in the Duel Mode of the Demo, but even those might well have been changed in the meantime. You don't know what buoldings Necropolis has. You don't know how many creatures the town gives per level. You don't know how abilities work. Most of the time people in the beta complained about the Chilling Steel ability being too good for Necro and so on and so forth.
So what I see is a complaint like, well, the creatures all suck, we want powerful Necro creatures, which means all other aspects of the game are ignored.
You could just as well say Dungeon doesn't get enough creatures and is therefore not competetive.

seem to mean in my eyes that you have no idea how balanced or not the faction is as well - you just talk big but without any content worth anything, which is especially visible here:


Moreover you must think the developers and testers are really blind if you think they played and developed and tested years and then come up with a Necropolis that can be beaten by anyone with ease - and which is plain to see after fighting a duel at that. How stupid do you think all of them to be?

What do you think I am - an idiot? These very same developers and testers had the battlefild the size of toilet room not more than 2 months ago and you couldn't even put all your army there if an extra big units decided to join you, not to mention how the battlefield changed a mere month before release and all changes witnessed since the beta. And you are telling me that the game has been tested for years? Ha - so many things and features as they are now didn't even exist one year ago in order to be tested at all and a lot have been heavily modified almost like yesterday! It is blatantly obvious that the demo is a nowhere a finished game too and that changes occur literally by the day and even more obvious that due to the hurry not everything is polished despite the effort. If we all were such dumb sheep as you seem to be no one would have complained having ultimate faith in the dev decisions and the game would have been released months agon in a significantly different state and I'm pretty sure with a different battlefield and many other oversights. So don't feed me such blatant and dumb fanboism, because despite the genius of some of the work the game is still lacking here and there and all we want to do here is point where we think it does, while you are telling us that we are too ignorant, shallow-minded and inexperienced in H5 tactics (which according to you have nothing in common with H3 tactics) so despite the fact that we can very well see what abilities creatures have at this stage we are to ignore how useless those are because looking at the big picture (and here we have to trust your word, no examples necessary, right?) these poor abilities do not matter because if get this, this, and that ability the units are that ****ish anymore. How reassuring...

If you've got nothing to say (which obviously is the case) then say nothing - you'll avoid making a further fool out of yourself... I'm not interested how "knowledgable" you are supposed to be if there is nothing decent you can present as an argument, not to mention your joke type posts so far have done nothing to strenghten your stance. You are basically saying that nothing is known and we should wait and on the other hand state with ultimate faith that the faction is balanced already. So which is it? You know for sure what the faction will look like at release and the first part of your state is a dumb lie or you have no idea what the faction will look like so that the second part of you statement is a blatant lie based on assumptions and obviously blind faith? Or maybe you will drop another meaningless one-liner? If not maybe you go back to the obviously ignored request for an example of how Necro would beat the new Forest lineup since you told me to play Necro defensively due the the SUPER-MEGA-SHOOTING POWER of the skellies. Please elaborate on this particular example, out of your seemingly infinite expertise in H5...

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 09:48 AM
You shoot them.

MrOELOELOE
04-18-2006, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
Are you playing dumb or you can€t read?

I'll regard your Lich advice as a very bad joke, because frankly if you thought this is a valid argument then I shouldn't waste time with you...

So you meant the Lich advice as a valid argument? Sheesh...

Well - a Joker you are, at least this post of yours is a joke. Jolly? No - more like a bad Joker if you ask me.

If we all were such dumb sheep as you seem to be...

you'll avoid making a further fool out of yourself...

Instead of trying to insult people, why don't u write a nice analysis, based on many single/multiplayer games (not duels/full games) how necropolis is seriously underpowered. U can't because u base yourself on a seriously underpowered hero.

I'll just quote the guy who can say it better than me:


Originally posted by BSR_RuGGBuTT:
I love the net but it also forces some of us to interact with the more ******ed people on the planet.

Naskonni
04-18-2006, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
Instead of trying to insult people, why don't u write a nice analysis, based on many single/multiplayer games (not duels/full games) how necropolis is seriously underpowered. U can't because u base yourself on a seriously underpowered hero.

I'll just quote the guy who can say it better than me:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BSR_RuGGBuTT:
I love the net but it also forces some of us to interact with the more ******ed people on the planet.

How about instead of giving me meaningless advice of the sort of "well, the Lich's spells are bad so you will never cast them instead of shooting but since you can't defend it well so that other units can block it easily you can cast those spells once blocked, so - rejoice", you actually come up with something that makes sense as an argument and convince me how wrong I am. For a change... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't need the whole game and a town to be able to see unit abilities and whether they are useful or not. No hero ability will ever make harm touch better, is it? Or maybe there is a building that makes the Dragon's curse attack better too? Can you tell me why would you spend the resources to build the Dragon structure and then more to upgrade it in order to get the current Dragons with the clear conscience that you will *have* to sacrifice something so expensive but not clearly useful? Reanimate dead? Problem is - which tier do you cast it on since all of them are good at (re)dying, and you might even want to spend a turn or two to dispell enemy spells unless you plan to spend each Wraith turn doing so (in case of buffs)? Wait - the touch cannot be used offensively even - darn...

Then again - correct me if I'm wrong - Necro heroes are not exactly great at Knowledge, is it? If this is so then it's even worse as even spells will not help the situation much... Inferno is already good at soaking whatever mana you have right at the start too, there are factions much better at shooting and better at defending their shooters and there is no "might" Necro units to speak of as to attack head on...

I'm not saying I will not buy the game if the faction is not improved, unit abilities tweaked and so on, but I don't see a reason why my favorite faction should become so bland because skellies have become archers.

So - why do I need the whole game in order to judge the usefulness of unit *abilities*?


Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
You shoot them.

You mean - you outshoot them? Well, they will shoot first and it seems they are much better at it even with significantly lower numbers, but that cannot be judged at all since THIS particular aspect cannot be seen without the whole game - I don't know how many skellies I'll have at that stage and how they will perform in whatever number vs an accumulated Forest army (never remembered the new name).

So - how about tier 6 and tier 7 - what do they do? And since Liches will not be in the thousands is it safe to assume that I can forget about them the very first turn?

MrOELOELOE
04-18-2006, 11:59 AM
well, just for you I played with necropolis now.

Well lvl 6 and 7 both arent that bad. Of course I won because of my magic (mass decay, imagine what I could have done if mark of the necromancer actually works and gives me more mana instead of just saying it does (I might have been able to use spells like mass weakness etc.)). Anyway I cant expect the wraiths and dragons to do anything if there is a +10 defense bonus because of the enemy hero, so they made good meatshields while my vampires and liches (which has a quite interesting (6 angels killing) decaymagic ability) took some casualties with them.

Wraiths vs Paladins, wraiths do more damage, paladins have charge and a fast horse (more movement). Not much of a difference there, the biggest difference was the 15 wraiths vs 20 (+6 or 7 reurrected) paladins with 10 defense bonus. Of course those are uneven odds in that duel.

Angels beat dead dragons: big surprise! (purely logical, supreme being against some dead bones). It was the dragons cursing and sheer numbers that helped a lot slowing them paladins down.

Liches, well their shooting sucked, 130 damage to marksmen (and some additional damage (inquisitor/first aid tent), their magic weakened the paladins and destroyed the archangels.

Like I said (see page 1) Ill play the game first then Ill complain, cause I am confident that months of developing, balancing and testing will result in Nival getting it right, if it aint good enough then, they can still patch it.



well... I hope I wont be called stupid again for providing some examples to try and give some insights in what I think of the creatures, its all I got (one duelhero, 2 games (1 very close loss, 1 win)) and I cant be bothered to write a lenghty discussion in to every ability or aspect of the creatures.

Krosfiyah
04-18-2006, 12:28 PM
I find the Necromancer race pretty balanced, it all depends on how you use them. Maybe I am lucky, but I have played Necromancer twice on duel mode in the demo and I won (inferno, elven race). Mass decay is a killer spell http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Final_Boss
04-18-2006, 02:06 PM
But for God´s shake... What is the conclusion of all those that like the present necropolis? Here is: "With Mass Decay, Chilling Steel, Chilling bones, and Raise Dead you should be able to win" WTF?! sorry, I mean: WTF?!

Are you saying to me that I NEED luck because my creatures are sheep excrements? What kind of philosophy is that for an faction?

Holy ***! you people are scaring me, seriously!

phoenixzs
04-18-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
But for God´s shake... What is the conclusion of all those that like the present necropolis? Here is: "With Mass Decay, Chilling Steel, Chilling bones, and Raise Dead you should be able to win" WTF?! sorry, I mean: WTF?!

Are you saying to me that I NEED luck because my creatures are sheep excrements? What kind of philosophy is that for an faction?

Holy ***! you people are scaring me, seriously!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif A good one here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Actually game testers are no better than us they are also human so its illogical to think that they have calculated everything.Also I would be very suprised if there is going to be more than %5 change in the end game since demos are for advirtisement not for balance.Pretending as if we know nothing about the faction and all the things are going to "magically" change will get us no where.From my point of view we can see what Necro looks like in the end game as %95 percent.So dont play the dumb and lets talk about "facts" of the demo not your imaginative dream world.

By the way I accept that the importance of low level creatures increased significantly which in my opinion is a very positive thing.But people are counting on them in theoretical basis too much.The first 4 levels will do the army job about %40 percent while last levels will do %60 percent.Furthermore we are also discussing wampires here which belongs to 4th level which clearly gives %10 to that percent of fighting.So the problem evolves not around the %30 percent but rather that remaining %70 percent.Sure low level affect at late game has risen in my opinion(excluding the rare cases like hordes of skeletons) form %15 to to %30 which is good.But having good number of levels doesnt solve the imbalance at high levels that much.

Jolly-Joker
04-18-2006, 03:03 PM
Dangit, Boss, you don't win the frigging H V with creatures, you win it with the darn heroes, for God's sake (which is nothing new, actually).
Let me tell you that at this very point Necromancy effectiveness has been halved to 5, 10 and 15% because it is considered too darn strong. Does that sound like Necropolis is weak?
Are people unable to understand that contrary to prior game versions you can't just take a skill and, well, it will work? The meaning in hero development is to find a darn STRATEGY how to develop the stupid hero to make the most of your darn troops.
Let's find a very simple example, shall we?
When playing Necropolis, since you have the numbers you want abilities that numbers will benefit from. For BASIC (immediately available) abilities that would be Battle Frenzy (needing Offense) and Toughness (needing Defense). So far so good. Now you play Dungeon and what you have is everything BUT numbers. So while Battle Frenzy and Toughness are not exactly bad they are no killer skills for Dungeon either BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE WILL BENEFIT MORE. Which means: taking them is actually a disadvantage. Now, the SECOND basic Offense skill is ARCHERY (+20% shooting damage). While Necro will have a couple hundred (or even thousand) shooters, Dungeon has half a level one and a level 6, so Archery is not that high on the priority list as well for Dungeon because they won't do much shooting damage. That leaves Tactics as basic Offense skill which allows a more offensive deployment for the Blood Furies and THAT one is pretty cool because it allows the Furies to reach farther.
So, while Frenzy and Archery won't hurt when playing Dungeon it won't win you the game, that's for sure. The question now is for Dungeon: Do you need Offense for advanced killer skills? If not, Offense may not be the best skill to pick because only Tactics is an effective skill.
THAT is what the game is all about.
In short: a superior army with an inferior hero will LOSE! (And inferior means, a hero with unsuitable abilities and skills; THAT'S why I sited Chuckles with his Inferno analysis which is odds-on as far as I'm concerned).
Now that doesn't mean Necropolis is inferior, army-wise.
I'm going to give just one example here, a thing that really pisses me off. I read here that Ghosts and Spectres are useless. Boy, that's so ignorant. Everyone who fights AGAINST them complains about their special, it's just luck, no strategy and whatnot. 100 misses in a row.
But that's just not true. It's just psychology.
Now what happens with the opponent if you have that unit, prefarably the upgraded ones. The opponent may want to kill them with magic alone. That's 100% tactic, but it uses up the magic resources; as long as the opponent has units with mana on the battlefield you can regenerate the Spectres, so you need a lot of destructive power to kill them for good. But what do you do facing a hundred of them? The options are clear. IF you decide on a melee attack you must be prepared for follow-ups, because the first attack will at least use up the retaliation, if nothing else and you would want to take advantage of it. This is NOT true for a ranged attack; however, if there's a melee attack and the attack misses the retaliation may be painful.
In the end this will usually lead to:
taking every excuse to attack another unit with "certain" results.
I'm playing a pretty interesting 6-way hot seat at the moment and I will give you an update about armies when I reach end of week 4. It's pretty interesting.
Umm, a last one. You are supposed to lose half the time, aren't you? Because otherwise it would be unbalanced in favor of Necro.

Naskonni
04-18-2006, 05:11 PM
Good - I hope you live long enough to get Liches, Wraiths and Dragons as to share did you find them useful on the battlefield for their price and quantity and especially what the harm touch was good for if it was at all. Concrete examples from what you saw, please!

Your hero skill strategy is true but part of it is still luck and it does not compensate for poor creature abilities.

So far I'll admit that Ghosts' ability does have a psychological side-effects, thus can be be deemed useful in a strange way - powerful melee stacks choose to ignore them for fear of a wasted turn, but people target them indirectly with mass spells (targeted at units nearby), thus avoiding the risk of waisting a turn just on them and it seems to work fine (for themhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).Their mana draining ability has been of extremely little use to me up to now. Useful ability? How often?

Now show me that Tiers 5 to 7 are useful too.

I'm almost willing to accept that the 100% curse ability of the Dragons is useful most of the time as the enemy hero usually cannot afford to cleanse his units every turn and units that attack the Dragons and suffer the counter strike are cursed as well, but is it enough for a tier 7 unit, being the only ability it has (if you don't count that it's a flyer)?

The more I play the more useless harm touch seems to me, I find uses for other unit's abilities, but harm touch is just... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Wraiths for me at the moment are nothing but tanks, not even very good tanks at that...

Vs. powerful "live" units the Lich's Decay is worth more than a shot provided the enemy cannot afford to dispel it, which is a useful tactic. It would be very good vs neutral stacks I imagine.

Vampires are countered perfectly by Gargoyles and Golems (no ressurection for attacking them), which makes them even more underpowered in this case. I still think vampires need a moderate boost, either to ressurection or to damage.

What are zombies good for later on?

Elaborate on those points please.

I don't mind reduced Necromancy - if you just show me that the rest of the units have their application and niche and make for a fun faction.

And OLEOLE - decay is nice unless you play vs an experienced opponent and his turn is immediately after yours (hero-wise) in which case he dispels it, basically negating the whole effect and making you waste mana - has happened to me before. The spell does not make the faction - you might never even get it in a game, so its in the luck category. Talk to me about unit abilities, especially the Wraiths, Liches and Vampires.You didn't mention harm touch at all - did you use it? If not - how is it not useless? If yes - when did you use it?

aetherburst
04-18-2006, 05:22 PM
when did dragons and wights lose incorporal?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Final_Boss
04-18-2006, 09:29 PM
Dangit, Boss, you don't win the frigging H V with creatures, you win it with the darn heroes, for God's sake
What? Hero is a vital part, the core if you wish, but your creatures win the battles. You can replace the creatures by potatoes if you don´t believe me. Their utility in combat is crucial. (Neutrals fight without a hero, and they can defeat you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , can you say the same of heroes without creatures?)


Let me tell you that at this very point Necromancy effectiveness has been halved to 5, 10 and 15% because it is considered too darn strong. Does that sound like Necropolis is weak?
OMFG! then, I will be a lucky guy if I get 500 skeletons in a normal map? Bad creatures, weak faction skill... Necromancers must be some kind of uber-super-men capable of killing a entire stack by a single one sneeze


as long as the opponent has units with mana on the battlefield you can regenerate the Spectres, so you need a lot of destructive power to kill them for good.
Spectres: speed-5, init-10, HP-12 = They never corss the battlefield alive. Have you caused to enemy miss an attack before all your phantoms get volatilized? Hurray, this is a great day!


Seriously, the utility of necro creatures is a joke, and if they are numerous, the usefulness only get bigger and more expensive.

akrav
04-19-2006, 12:14 AM
one of the main problems with the necropolis is that its a 1 unit wonder(massing SA), without that it crumbles(maps were theres not enough neutrals) and with it, it can be too strong.

they can either change the whole way the faction works and prevent the faction from being based on amount of SA you have.
or
they can make accumulating SA more predictable and not random(based on map and enemies) and balance the necropolis based on that.

atm I think their balancing the necropolis on the fact that some maps will let you get 3k+ eventually, which doesnt work on all the maps, which is a bad solution to balancing the faction.

Mr.Eiki
04-19-2006, 04:19 AM
harm touch seems to be like a good idea... its only usefull to take 1 of their best unit when your wraight are almost dead (1 unit left)

i had 2 ideas about a good way of modifying it:

-I was thinking that maybe it could take out 2 units and to make it have an area effect (like 3x3 area)
I think that would make it a more usefull ability (taking out 2 of every enemy unit in an area)

- Make it as a decay effect...u cast the ability on 1 creature, and everytime wraight attacks (to any creature), the target of the ability will lose 1 unit

what u think?

Val-Gaav
04-19-2006, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by akrav:
they can either change the whole way the faction works and prevent the faction from being based on amount of SA you have.


Well this is what they should do .... Now necro is just the same as in h3 or h4 ... Simply unbeatable on big maps ...

both necromancy and diplomacy will always be broken skills ... On some map useless , on some critical and unbeatable

However it's too late to change this concept now...

MrOELOELOE
04-19-2006, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
Talk to me about unit abilities, especially the Wraiths, Liches and Vampires.You didn't mention harm touch at all - did you use it? If not - how is it not useless? If yes - when did you use it?

read.

HealingAura
04-19-2006, 05:37 AM
Something I posted elsewhere:

The way I see it there are only 3 stats that make a creature useful or not:
- Damage (attack and defense just raise/lower the damage but 100 creatures with 1-2 damage will always do less than 100 creatures with 3-4 damage)
- HP (especialy important with low level units since additional 10 HP for a stack of 250 creatures means 2500 more HP overall)
- Initiative (for example, that's what made the gold dragon better then the black dragon)

And of course the creature's abilities count too if they are useful enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If a creature is more useful than another creature (at any level) then it (the first, the better) should cost more and have less growth.

Lets take a look at the Zombie and the Archer (according to the Genie's lamp):
zombie: 1 damage, 6 initiative, 17 HP, (undead), growth 15, cost 40
archer: 2-4 damage (3 average), 9 initiative, 6 HP, (ranged, scatter shot), 12 growth, cost 50

Which means that the archer deals triple damage compared to the zombie (more or less), acts more often, and is a ranged attacker. The zombie on the other hand has (about) triple as much HP. Also, after 4 months of town growth you will get either 240 zombies (4080 HP total) for 9600 gold, or 192 archers (1152 HP total) for 9600 gold. Your 192 archers will be able to shoot from afar and deal as much damage as 576 zombies and will also deal that damage more frequently. I wonder which one do you prefer since obviously if you buy archers then you multiply your total damage by 2.4 (576/240 zombies) for the same price!

If we compare the Hunter to the Ghost we get:
ghost: 3-7 (average 5) damage, 10 initiative, 8 HP, (undead, Flying, Incorporeal), growth 9, cost 100
hunter: 4-7 damage (5.5 average), 10 initiative, 10 HP, (Ranged, Double Shot), 7 growth, cost 125

Which means that the hunter deals more than twice damage compared to the zombie (since it attacks with 5.5 damage twice and the ghost attacks with 5 damage), acts the same, has more HP (+25% more HP), and is a ranged attacker. The ghost on the other hand has the incorporal ability which makes some of the attacks against it fail. Also, after 4 months of town growth you will get either 144 ghosts (1152 HP total) for 14400 gold, or 112 hunters (1120 HP total) for 14000 gold. Your 112 hunters will be able to shoot from afar and deal as much damage as 246 ghosts. I wonder which one do you prefer since obviously if you buy hunters then you multiply your total damage by 1.7 (246/144 ghosts) even for a lower price!

conclusion: the zombies and ghots are not worth buying! You should buy them only if you got gold that you have no use for http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. Since they don't have any useful combat ability (like Griffin's Battle Dive gives him a purpose in battle) and they are weak (damage wise) compared to other creatures in their level then that what makes them useless.

Superbober
04-19-2006, 05:54 AM
Well this is what they should do .... Now necro is just the same as in h3 or h4 ... Simply unbeatable on big maps ...

I'm sorry to say that, but what's you are saying it's simply a bull****. Necromancy was much overpowered in h2, and almost well balanced in h3 (if there was only one necro town, and only few necromancy boosting artifacts, but even if there was, necro was still beatable) and h4. But that's not the point.

I'm courios how even few thausands of h5 skellies could be dangerous. They are simply too damn weak to do anything serious. I'm not sure if you realize that gap between tier1 and tier7 is now enormous. 150 skellies have almost no chances against tier7 unit (except spectral dragon, of coursehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), as they had in previous heroes.
And now, with necromancy skill drop off to 20% (25% with hard-to-get skill, and 35% with well build town) i simply can't understand what you are afraid off. I know that numbers of them surely give you some great advantage, but even that can't recompesate (don't know if i'm using the right word - and btw. sorry for my english, hope it will be understandable) weak tier2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 units (i consider vampire lord as definitively damd good tier4 unit). Beside that, most tier1 units are doing sth really usefull - imps, master gremlins - these are damn usefull tier1 creatures. Skellies simply do nothing.

I don't know is game ballanced or not,i know only that, what most of you know for sure - that duel is unballanced now, and it would be nice if Ubi would do sth with that.

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naskonni:
Talk to me about unit abilities, especially the Wraiths, Liches and Vampires.You didn't mention harm touch at all - did you use it? If not - how is it not useless? If yes - when did you use it?

read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did that, did you?

First - the words "harm touch" are nowhere to be seen in your post.

Second - you say "Well lvl 6 and 7 both arent that bad. Of course I won because of my magic...". Do you see what I see in that statement? That means that they WERE *that* bad and if not for the magic you would have lost, isn't it? As I already pointed out to you (read, remember?) magic cannot be counted on - what spells appear at towns is pure chance.

Then you go and describe in a chaotic fashion what killed what, what was weaker than what but harmed whatever and somewhere in between some abilities and spells were used. Roughly that is the idea I got by *reading* through - nothing concrete, nothing to build an argument on. And Dragons curse helped slowing the Paladins down? Please!?! It slows down nothing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ghosts are not mentioned at all? How come - they are supposed to be useful too, no?

Now - try a constructive analysis of unit abilities. Start with Harm Touch as requested http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 07:10 AM
Umm, Naskonni, you are assuming too much. Spells are NOT randomly given. The guild gives 3-3-3-2-2 spells (plus an adventure spell on levels 2-5 which are all Summoning Magic). Each town is associated with 2 spells schools. For Necropolis that is Summoning Magic and Dark Magic. There are 2 spells on each level for each school. Each town is GUARANTEED to get one spell out of the 2 associated schools. So the Necro guild will always look like:
Level 1: DA-SU-X
Level 2: DA-SU-X
Level 3: DA-SU-X
Level 4: DA-SU
Level 5: DA-SU
I wouldn't call that random.
And, please, don't start a discussion over THIS one here and now, at least not with me. This is a feature I don't like that much, even though it does the job it is supposed to do.

marythemoose
04-19-2006, 07:26 AM
Hi there. I'm a big Necro fan from Heroes 2/3, and i think part of the appeal is that they're a bit of an underdog; the unit's aren't the strongest, the heroes aren't the most powerful, so it's more satisfying if you win.
I haven't played any version of Heroes 5 yet, so I can't speak of any details of the latest incarnation, but I suspect from the posts i've read (I haven't had chance to read many, at work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) that the larger numbers of units should outweigh any disadvantage from them being a bit weak.

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 07:27 AM
Just a second here. Final Boss, Naskonni, anyone, umm, what stats do the Necropolis creatures have TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? Do you have examples?
These, for example, are the stats of the Wraith:
At: 26
Def: 24
Dam: 25-30
Health: 100
Speed: 6
Init: 11
Are these the stats you have?

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Umm, Naskonni, you are assuming too much. Spells are NOT randomly given. The guild gives 3-3-3-2-2 spells (plus an adventure spell on levels 2-5 which are all Summoning Magic). Each town is associated with 2 spells schools. For Necropolis that is Summoning Magic and Dark Magic. There are 2 spells on each level for each school. Each town is GUARANTEED to get one spell out of the 2 associated schools. So the Necro guild will always look like:
Level 1: DA-SU-X
Level 2: DA-SU-X
Level 3: DA-SU-X
Level 4: DA-SU
Level 5: DA-SU
I wouldn't call that random.
And, please, don't start a discussion over THIS one here and now, at least not with me. This is a feature I don't like that much, even though it does the job it is supposed to do.

What is the statistical probability of NOT getting decay/mass decay (for example)? Based on a single town with a fully built guild? Give me a percentage number. Let's be concrete, shall we? Number of spells of school given per built guild tier X / Number of spells in school of tier X.

Are heroes guaranteed to get certain skills too? Because it seem we need quite a few for sure, every single game...


Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Just a second here. Final Boss, Naskonni, anyone, umm, what stats do the Necropolis creatures have TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? Do you have examples?
These, for example, are the stats of the Wraith:
At: 26
Def: 24
Dam: 25-30
Health: 100
Speed: 6
Init: 11
Are these the stats you have?

Will check and come back once at home.

sandro_hp
04-19-2006, 07:59 AM
That's the BUG,i am SURE,that's not necropolis,that's rubbish,must be fixed,necropolis should't so weak!!!!

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 08:00 AM
Well, you should be able to figure that out: Each Dark and Summoning magic spell has at least 50%; I don't know whether the 3rd spell must be from a third school, but I do think so. This would make each spell 50%
Decay is level 2 (as is Raise Dead, btw).
MASS Decay (which is actually AREA Decay) will be available via a basic ability that comes with Dark Magic (I think it'scalled Master of Pain which will make Decay and Suffering Mass/Area spells). So when you get Decay, you'll get Mass Decay as well - most probably.
AFAIK the skills - or the appearance of them -are probability driven.
If you get a skill, the abilities will be offered automatically - but obviously you must THINK there, otherwise you'll get offered too many abilities and the ones you are looking for may not come in a long while.
Now what about your stats, however? What stats do you have for Necro creatures?

KingAlamar
04-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Superbober:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Well this is what they should do .... Now necro is just the same as in h3 or h4 ... Simply unbeatable on big maps ...

I'm courios how even few thausands of h5 skellies could be dangerous. They are simply too damn weak to do anything serious. I'm not sure if you realize that gap between tier1 and tier7 is now enormous. 150 skellies have almost no chances against tier7 unit (except spectral dragon, of coursehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), as they had in previous heroes.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't played enough of the demo to know if they've changed the skill but there is one ability that can turn a few hundred skeletons from an annoyance to formidable.

If Chilling Steel still exists and works the way it did in the open beta then this adds 1 point of cold damage that can not be resisted by defense for each attacking creature. If you have a few hundred skeletons you can kill a L7 creature or two with each shot. Get the evercold icicle and that skill does 50% more damage. Now your few hundred skeletons may kill 2-3 level 7s per shot. The only thing is you have to be lucky for those guys to actually get their shots ... but that's life.

MrOELOELOE
04-19-2006, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
I did that, did you?

First - the words "harm touch" are nowhere to be seen in your post.

(page 3)


Originally posted by Naskonni:
Second - you say "Well lvl 6 and 7 both arent that bad. Of course I won because of my magic...". Do you see what I see in that statement? That means that they WERE *that* bad and if not for the magic you would have lost, isn't it?

You want them dead creatures to put up a fight against a bigger stack of paladins (probably in the prime of their life) with a (6 att -4 def)= 2 attack and (12 def - 2 att) 10 defense bonus. Pfff....


Originally posted by Naskonni:
Then you go and describe in a chaotic fashion what killed what, what was weaker than what but harmed whatever and somewhere in between some abilities and spells were used. Roughly that is the idea I got by *reading* through - nothing concrete, nothing to build an argument on. And Dragons curse helped slowing the Paladins down? Please!?! It slows down nothing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Like I said: read.


Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
well... I hope I wont be called stupid again for providing some examples to try and give some insights in what I think of the creatures, its all I got (one duelhero, 2 games (1 very close loss, 1 win)) and I cant be bothered to write a lenghty discussion in to every ability or aspect of the creatures.


Originally posted by Naskonni:
Now - try a constructive analysis of unit abilities. Start with Harm Touch as requested http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I say again: read. (page 1) And its as simple as this: I will not make up my mind, whether certain creatures are too weak or not based on one freaking (underpowered) duel hero.


Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
I will wait for creature growth numbers and other campaign aspects that I havent seen yet, be4 I make up my mind, the duelhero sure is weak though.

BTW, why dont u play Inferno, they have all that u want, apparently?

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by MrOELOELOE:
I say again: read. (page 1) And its as simple as this: I will not make up my mind, whether certain creatures are too weak or not based on one freaking (underpowered) duel hero.

Well, then Mr.Useless-but-general-comments, if you don't want to make up your own mind, don't waste my time and forum space trying to make up mine. You obviously don't want to understand what the discussion is all about. Whatever the duel hero is the unit abilities are not dependent on him, their general usefulness is almost not dependent on him also (his attack will somewhat boost Vampires' ability though), the ability usefulness is almost not dependent on unit count too - in general I need neither to judge their usefulness.

I'm not interested in your infantile arguments of the sort of "the paladins had a shower, are clean, in their prime and thus deserve to beat the rotting bone, filthy, smelly Dragons - what did you expect?" Take this non-sense somewhere else. Please! You argue for the sake of arguing, and do so with general and meaningless examples.

Have a nice day.

Joker,

I don't have the whole game, neither any documentation to see which spell is in which spell level (tier?) and how many are there per level(tier?) so I can't figure out myself what is the probability of getting a specific spell. 50% is still a lot of chance, if that is per town. It would still mean that you might never get it - speaking realistically one should NOT have to rely on it in order to win, at least that's what I understand by good balance.

As for Wraiths' stats - as I said, when I get home, I don't have the demo at work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 08:37 AM
Okay, since I don't want to get too deep into things, here are the actual (I cannot guarantee that those will be the final stats, but they are the actual stats), for the upgraded level 5, 6 and 7 of Academy, Haven and Necropolis
Level 5:
Master Genie Inquisitor Archlich
Att 15 16 19
Def 13 16 19
Dam 16-22 9-12 16-20
Health 40 80 55
Speed 8 5 3
Init 12 10 10
Growth 8 6 6
Cost 700 900 900

The Inquisitors have no Melee Penalty, btw. Speed is not interesting for shooters normally, however shooter can attack hand-to-hand deliberately. (Press CTRL when aiming onto a creature in movement range)

Level 6:
Rakshasa Paladin Wraith
Att 25 24 26
Def 20 24 24
Dam 23-30 20-30 25-30
Health 140 100 100
Speed 6 8 6
Init 8 12 11
Growth 4 4 4
Cost 1770 1550 1800

The Rakshasa special needs a turn to be activated, but after that it will have increased initiative (if used).

Level 7

Titan Archangel SpecDragon
Att 30 31 30
Def 30 31 28
Dam 40-70 50 25-35
Health 190 220 160
Speed 6 8 7
Init 10 11 11
Growth 2 2 3
Cost 4700+2G 4200+2C 2900+2M

Frankly I fail to see the problem here.

Infiltrator-SF
04-19-2006, 08:38 AM
Their mana draining ability has been of extremely little use to me up to now. Useful ability? How often?


As often as you fight stacks with mana, which means vs every faction, and very effective vs casting neutral monsters.



I'm almost willing to accept that the 100% curse ability of the Dragons is useful most of the time as the enemy hero usually cannot afford to cleanse his units every turn and units that attack the Dragons and suffer the counter strike are cursed as well, but is it enough for a tier 7 unit, being the only ability it has (if you don't count that it's a flyer)?

Cursing isn't bad at all. For example Black Dragons get immunity which is actually a double-edged sword.



The more I play the more useless harm touch seems to me, I find uses for other unit's abilities, but harm touch is just... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Wraiths for me at the moment are nothing but tanks, not even very good tanks at that...


You make it sound as if they don't deal very good damage.




Vampires are countered perfectly by Gargoyles and Golems (no ressurection for attacking them), which makes them even more underpowered in this case. I still think vampires need a moderate boost, either to ressurection or to damage.


Of coure, gargoyles and golems, I will get them next time I play Dungeon, Inferno, Haven or Sylvan. Oh wait, nobody but academy has mechanical troops. And those gargs sure pack a punch. If you put your vampires in the golems range without a good reason, then you deserve to be wasted.

I guess it's ok if I start whining how gryphons own my ranged troops if I don't move them, it's CLEAR that there must NOT be any unit that has an advantage on them, right?



What are zombies good for later on?


As I said before, get tactics and put them in front of liches. Perfect role.

Mr.Eiki
04-19-2006, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Level 6:
Rakshasa Paladin Wraith
Att 25 24 26
Def 20 24 24
Dam 23-30 20-30 25-30
Health 140 100 100
Speed 6 8 6
Init 8 12 11
Growth 4 4 4
Cost 1770 1550 1800

Level 7
Titan Archangel SpecDragon
Att 30 31 30
Def 30 31 28
Dam 40-70 50 25-35
Health 190 220 160
Speed 6 8 7
Init 10 11 11
Growth 2 2 3
Cost 4700+2G 4200+2C 2900+2M

Frankly I fail to see the problem here.

looking at the tables, it doesnt seem that bad the necros... i didnt know that the spectral dragons were SO CHEAP (in comparison) although their max damage is lower than the minimun damage of a titan

about paladin, they have charge, that is a very powerful ability.
now..u have 10 wraight and 10 paladin....paladin have 1 more initiative so they attack first...as both hare 2x2 units, paladins reach wraight from the other side of the battlefield and with full charge... not many wraight left (considering they are in a straight line)

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 08:53 AM
For spells. It was made so you shouldn't be dependent on a specific spell to appear in the guild. The system guarantees that you will always be able to have useful spell/mass spells. For example, one of the level 3 spells for Dark Magic is Confusion; you can get it as a mass spell depending on the skill level you have in Dark Magic it will not only make shooters forget to shoot, it will make every troop type forget to retaliate (!).............
Comes in pretty handy once in a while, especially on mass level. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 09:02 AM
The Combined damage with full growth is 75-105 which is not that bad compared to the 100 of the angels. Okay Titans have 80-140 and they can decide whther to shoot or to melee, but it averages out to 90 for Necro, 105 for Haven (1 attack point better) and 110 for Academy which is not that bad. 480 Health are not that bad either, even though they are more vulnerable.
A look on the Inquisitor's damage is more reason to cry though. Also the Genies 40 Health are not that comfortably for a non-shooter as well. And the Initiative is okay for Necro, too. I mean, they don't have a very fast unit, but with the exception of the Zombies they are all medium- fast which is, as it should be for undead.

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:

As often as you fight stacks with mana, which means vs every faction, and very effective vs casting neutral monsters.

Problem is - how often do they survive to fight a mana unit with some mana left, because if there is no mana by the time they hit they get nothing out of it, 'k? Obviously in my case this particular case didn't happen very often, understood? Do you have concrete examples of that happening or are you just theorycrafting here?



Cursing isn't bad at all. For example Black Dragons get immunity which is actually a double-edged sword.

Cursing isn't bad at all for a tier 7 unit? I'm not so sure it is worth the money I have pay for it. Immunity is a VERY nice double-edged sword by the way - usually the positive edge is sharper than the negative one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


You make it sound as if they don't deal very good damage.

I make it sound as if Harm Touch is useless to the extent that if they get it out of the game I would hardly notice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Of coure, gargoyles and golems, I will get them next time I play Dungeon, Inferno, Haven or Sylvan. Oh wait, nobody but academy has mechanical troops. And those gargs sure pack a punch. If you put your vampires in the golems range without a good reason, then you deserve to be wasted.

I made it quite clear that vampires suffer badly IN THAT CASE. Which in English means that they don't if those units are not on the battefiled, isn't it?


I guess it's ok if I start whining how gryphons own my ranged troops if I don't move them, it's CLEAR that there must NOT be any unit that has an advantage on them, right?

Yes, I'm whining, especially about units that don't cut is as they are... Have you seen how many Vampires you can raise by attacking even the weakest units on the battefield? Sorry - whining again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



What are zombies good for later on?



As I said before, get tactics and put them in front of liches. Perfect role.

Yes, even with tactics they will manage to guard the BIG UNIT Liches, all by themselves http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif How could I NOT have thought of that?!?

MrOELOELOE
04-19-2006, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
Well, then Mr.Useless-but-general-comments, if you don't want to make up your own mind, don't waste my time and forum space trying to make up mine. You obviously don't want to understand what the discussion is all about. Whatever the duel hero is the unit abilities are not dependent on him, their general usefulness is almost not dependent on him also (his attack will somewhat boost Vampires' ability though), the ability usefulness is almost not dependent on unit count too - in general I need neither to judge their usefulness.

I'm not interested in your infantile arguments of the sort of "the paladins had a shower, are clean, in their prime and thus deserve to beat the rotting bone, filthy, smelly Dragons - what did you expect?" Take this non-sense somewhere else. Please! You argue for the sake of arguing, and do so with general and meaningless examples.

My first post: I cant call them competitive without more info than one duel

My second post: I agree on a couple of arguments how you cant call necropolis not competitive without more info.

My third post: I point out some errors from you: including gating in a creature vs creature comparison, a couple of examples how some abilities have some use (not much I agree, but some), abilities that u called useless

Your response: very bad joke, shouldnt waste my time, do try to present VALID arguments (I wasnt providing arguments)

Then u keep asking for stuff I wont discuss as I pointed out in my first (and second) post.

etc.etc.

Now I am arguing just for the arguing, I am infantile? Reatarded idiots like you come and go, please proceed to the go-part. I am done with this ****.

OoNebsoO
04-19-2006, 09:52 AM
I have a feeling that when people actually play complete game, not duel ****, there'll be threads saying 'Necropolis is too strong!'.

Campaigner_1st
04-19-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by OoNebsoO:
I have a feeling that when people actually play complete game, not duel ****, there'll be threads saying 'Necropolis is too strong!'.

Yeah, I got that feeling to. But that would only be because the guy who played them would know how to use them.

I think people should stop comparing units tier for tier and instead look on the global balance (cost, troops, abilities, growth, spells, hero skills and abilities)

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Just a second here. Final Boss, Naskonni, anyone, umm, what stats do the Necropolis creatures have TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? Do you have examples?
These, for example, are the stats of the Wraith:
At: 26
Def: 24
Dam: 25-30
Health: 100
Speed: 6
Init: 11
Are these the stats you have?

Checked - these are the stats I have in the demo. Verified the stats for S.Dragons and Archliches with what you posted - the stats are identical to what is in the demo for them too.

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 11:01 AM
Ok, so where's the problem with them?
Err, what Necro hero is in the Demo, Orson, Raven or Deirdre? What are the 6 duel heroes anway?

bllevinson
04-19-2006, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Ok, so where's the problem with them?
Err, what Necro hero is in the Demo, Orson, Raven or Deirdre? What are the 6 duel heroes anway?

JJ...thats the problem that noone has raised yet in 7 pages of complaining...the demo is 2 inferno scenarios and a haven scenario...THERE IS NO NECRO TO PLAY ON AN ACUTAL MAP!!!! The only experiences with Necro so far are just the duel, so there is truly no way anyone of us who hasnt played it yet outside of the beta (in which i personally did not like the Necro, but saw a lot of potential) can really know what they are like, so we can just refer to what those of you who have played it have posted...i for one am looking forward to trying them again in the full game based on what you have said. And the Necro duel hero is Deirdre...to go with Klaus, Ossir, Eruina, Jhora, and Marbas

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Ok, so where's the problem with them?
Err, what Necro hero is in the Demo, Orson, Raven or Deirdre? What are the 6 duel heroes anway?

Seen the stats of the few Tier 7 units you've posted Dragons seem balanced stats-wise as they are. To be useful though they demand agressive play - attacking, if their curse does not enter into play they are subpar overall - I can accept this with such stats and price. An additional Dragon ability of -1 (or -2 with upgrade?) to enemy morale would be most welcome as Undead make certain hero skills and map buildings pointless. I hope Necro heros never get to choose Morale as an option. Wouldn't it be nice if instead of Morale Necro heroes would get a faction specific skill - Anti-Morale (level 1 - reduce enemy morale by -1 of tiers 1-3, level 2 - morale -2 to tiers 1-3, -1 to 4-5, level 3 - morale at -3 for tiers 1-3, -2 for tier 4-5 and -1 to tiers 6-7?)? Is the Dragon creature building and the corresponding upgrade cheaper? If so I rest my case with them.

Liches fall into their place well enough compared to those units stats-wise, although being a big unit is a big disadvantage for me, compared for example to Inquisitors which are small, no melee penalty and do well in battle in each situation. Almost all shooters I can think of are small units, but maybe I'm missing some? Supposedly Decay on the Liches and their area attack compensates to an extent though. Liches are hardly defendable unless you use Wraiths and/or Dragons for that - you need to fill an area of 5 squares to shut them completely (from small units)

Wraiths are on par with the rest stats-wise, but lose badly when it comes to abilities - Paladins are better tanks due to their ability and Rakshasa is better overall too, Balors are much better due to abilities alone. Someone in the thread suggested that Wraiths should have their current ability as a passive ability instead, one that occurs with a certain chance (50+%?) when attacking as opposed to being an active one (not even an offensive one - no possibility to move & attack with it) - this would make them better vs big, strong units, vs small and numerous it would be next to useless unless the debuff comes into play. At this moment I happen to think the same. Or maybe it could replenish mana for the hero, replenish/resurrect a Wraith instead - whatever, anything would be better than what we have now. I honestly fail to see the usefulness of harm touch as it is - maybe you can show a use for it?

Could you post a similar comparison between vampires and other units of the same tier? I still think they're subpar in the tier, despite their resurrection...

Zombies and Ghosts. Ghosts seem to need more speed, not necessarily initiative (due to corporeal) - they need it in order to get to whatever mana users there are on the battlefield IMHO.

Zombies - erm, the statists of the game, meatshield to guard or rather make company to the SA?

Anyway - based on the stats comparison posted stats for the units compared are ok, abilities/perks - not always, sometimes a lot worse. If all spells you can get are as useful and I don't get useless ones of schools that are irrelevant, as you say, then things start to look better. Harm touch is still <BLEEP> though...

I regard Duel Heroes as irrelevant to this discussion personally. My beef is primarily with unit abilities.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 12:00 PM
Wow. I just now checked out this thread. LOL. You guys are REALLY creating all this fuss simply from your experience with the duel-mode and the basic unit stats/abilities?!? WOW, you're simply not understanding how this game works then. Yes, units are valuable. Yes, units do the actual fighting for you in the game. But I could take a army of 100 AA, 50 Paladins, etc, etc and fight an army of 50 AA, 55 Paladins, etc, etc and beat the larger army...simply due to the hero skills/abilities. JJ's right, the HERO wins the battles. PERIOD! Individual unit abilities and stats are all fine and good, but lets take a look at these necro units.

Skeleton. Ranged unit with OVERPOWERING numbers. Now, let's give these units to a good HERO. Damage goes from 1-2 to 2-3, ranged damage is increased by 20%. Hit points go from 5 to 7. While that all by itself might look nice, try looking at the same numbers in comparison to the actual STACK SIZES. Plain and simple, hero skills/abilities will determine whether you win or lose a scenerio...not troop types or troop numbers.

This same sort of adjustment can be made for all the necro units. And while you may say, "you mean in order to make the unit decent you'll have to get all these skills", the answer is quite simple. YES. But that's not just for Necro...it's for ALL the factions. Necro is basically the ANTI-Dungeon faction. Dungeon will produce high-damage, high-cost, low-production units, whereas Necro will produce low-damage, LOW-cost, HIGH-production units. But the skills, abilities and in-town buildings totally balance everything out.

I've played 3 different maps with Necro (earlier build) and I won EASILY all three times. From my experience with Necro...it wasn't "un-competitive" or filled with "weak" units. It was the exact opposite. It was TOO strong. The units by themselves weren't juggernaughts by any stretch of the imagination, but they're never BY THEMSELVES. They're always in HUGE numbers and with a hero that greatly enhances their effectiveness.

The demo's duel-mode is simply put a poor example of what Necro is really all about. It's kind of like determining what a novel is about by reading one paragraph in the middle of the book. You've got to see the whole context to get the whole picture. This is NOT heroes 3. NOWHERE CLOSE!

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 01:00 PM
Thanks again, Chuck.
I admit it's not so easy to grasp and accept, but it's true.
Anyway, I'll do a comparison of the Vamps then.
Archmages Imp. Griffins VampLords
Att 10 9 9
Def 10 8 9
Dam 7 5-15 7-11
Health 30 35 35
Speed 4 7 7
Init 10 15 11
Growth 10 10 10
Cost 340 360 350

For me this looks pretty balanced. Specials and effectiveness are on par. Sure the Vamp Lords aren't the dominating level 4 anymore, but wtf?

I understand, you'll give it a rest until you can actually play the Necro when someone can give you an example of the effectiveness of harm touch. Here is one.
You play against Haven. You have a LOT of skelly warriors. However, the opposing Knight has a high Defense Value and Evasion (-20% on ranged attacks; you can check what's "on" a unit by right-clicking twice on it). His Inquisitors just cast Endurance on his 5 Angels (or maybe even Archangels; not a waste; you saw the meager damage they do) adding +9 (!) to the defence. The hero did cast Deflect Arrows just before on the Angels which will subtract (depending on Light Magic skill) more shooting damage - which wont leave much shooting damage. The Angels just killed 6 Archliches and you don't see any way to really harm them. Nope, you don't have Cleansing (Dispel); it's a 3rd level Light Magic spell and you'd either need Wisdom (ability, Enlightenment based) which would allow you to learn all level 3 spells, no matter the school, or Basic Light Magic (pretty useless, if you get it offered at all) AND you'd have to have it in your guild at that - not that probable either.
Luckily enough your Wraiths can save the day. You have a dozen of them (or even 15 or something), but with the current values in Defense you won't even kill one Angel with a normal attack. You trigger Harm Touch and not only do you kill an Angel you kill the Endurance spell and Deflect Arrows as well paving the way for your Skelly Archers to do some REAL damage on the angels.
Note that this is not a theoretic example. Knights will have HIGH defense values. An Archangel with Endurance may have a defense of 50. Add something like 40-60% less shooting damage for Evasion and Deflect Arrows (a Light spell) you can easily see that there is not much that can hurt those Angels (you have no high level destructive spell; your best will probably be Ice Bolt which won't kill more than one Angel, if one at all) then.
Basically you can say the following (I admit this is far and wide into faction strategy and is not 100%, because the game is too new, but I'd give it a high probability):
Since you don't have the killer stack AGAINST CREATURES WITH A HIGH DEFENSE LEVEL (and note that Light and Summoning spells may increase them, which is practically everyone except Inferno) and since you "attrition" and "corrupt" the opposition away, the Wraith fills that slot exactly. You will certainly have one kill and you will dispel all beneficial spells (which you cannot do otherwise - at least most of the time).
In other words: They can pile the darn Light spells (Genies, Inquisitors, Druids) like hell on them Angels and Paladins and Titans and Rakshasas and Treants and Dragons, you are going to be able to counter that. As I said, try to kill an Ancient Treant that defends. Sure that things won't do anything in offense, but you must kill it first.
And if you envy the Pit Lords: They have INit 8.

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 01:31 PM
Good example - well argumented - in that light the ability is priceless. Decay would do better IF not dispelled which is obviously a vain hope against Castle (Haven). There is one HUGE hole in the example though and knowing what you just told you can exploit this hole badly:

Wraiths cannot move AND perform harm touch!

This means that if the Angel group wants to they can move and attack a diffent stack every turn making sure they have at least one square between them and the Wraiths and there will be absolutely no way you will manage to get by them with the Wraiths and remain there until your next turn comes as to be able to trigger the ability, your initiative is lower - so basically no chance in hell (I doubt slow will help). If one wants he can avoid (within reason) Wraiths' ability altogether, isn't it?

Other than that if Wraiths have to be the bearer of the Undead's sole "dispel" ability and if the opposing factions can be boosted in such ways - then fine, I give it a rest. I will NEVER get light magic on a Necro hero, so getting it from a Castle town is obviously out of the question. I doubt artifacts allow you to cast it.

Vampires look fine enough stat-wise plus their non-counterable strike and drain ability. You convinced me.

Now make harm touch offensive - i.e Wraiths should be able to move AND perform it!

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 01:46 PM
To tell the truth, I don't know whether I agree with your last point or not - not enough experience. It WOULD bet better for the Wraiths, obviously - and probably, considering the 1800 cost it might even be right. I admit you are half right - the other half is wrong - Wraiths have Init 11 which is the same as Archangels (and I think one better than Angels); Slow WOULD help, however it might indeed be Cleansed; there might be a Haste spell casted at that. Necro can "cast" Banshee Howl for 0 mana (basic Necro ability) which will lower moral, luck and init of the opposition -1 (should Necro get their œber-skill at any time it's curtains for everyone anyway).
To close this, what *I* would personally like is a -1 on morale for each miss against Ghosts/Spectres for the missing unit. Not much in big battles, but a nice touch.

phoenixzs
04-19-2006, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Wow. I just now checked out this thread. LOL. You guys are REALLY creating all this fuss simply from your experience with the duel-mode and the basic unit stats/abilities?!? WOW, you're simply not understanding how this game works then. Yes, units are valuable. Yes, units do the actual fighting for you in the game. But I could take a army of 100 AA, 50 Paladins, etc, etc and fight an army of 50 AA, 55 Paladins, etc, etc and beat the larger army...simply due to the hero skills/abilities. JJ's right, the HERO wins the battles. PERIOD! Individual unit abilities and stats are all fine and good, but lets take a look at these necro units.

Skeleton. Ranged unit with OVERPOWERING numbers. Now, let's give these units to a good HERO. Damage goes from 1-2 to 2-3, ranged damage is increased by 20%. Hit points go from 5 to 7. While that all by itself might look nice, try looking at the same numbers in comparison to the actual STACK SIZES. Plain and simple, hero skills/abilities will determine whether you win or lose a scenerio...not troop types or troop numbers.

This same sort of adjustment can be made for all the necro units. And while you may say, "you mean in order to make the unit decent you'll have to get all these skills", the answer is quite simple. YES. But that's not just for Necro...it's for ALL the factions. Necro is basically the ANTI-Dungeon faction. Dungeon will produce high-damage, high-cost, low-production units, whereas Necro will produce low-damage, LOW-cost, HIGH-production units. But the skills, abilities and in-town buildings totally balance everything out.

I've played 3 different maps with Necro (earlier build) and I won EASILY all three times. From my experience with Necro...it wasn't "un-competitive" or filled with "weak" units. It was the exact opposite. It was TOO strong. The units by themselves weren't juggernaughts by any stretch of the imagination, but they're never BY THEMSELVES. They're always in HUGE numbers and with a hero that greatly enhances their effectiveness.

The demo's duel-mode is simply put a poor example of what Necro is really all about. It's kind of like determining what a novel is about by reading one paragraph in the middle of the book. You've got to see the whole context to get the whole picture. This is NOT heroes 3. NOWHERE CLOSE!
We are seeing the whole picture just a bit different than your eyes.The argument about other factions needing skills is not valid.No where near it actually,for instance inferno and dungeon do not have to get anything to make their creatures usefull
I played the demo tonight my specteral dragons were no more than some hitty monster flying around.They provide zero tactical opportunity and with even those numbers(15 if I recall correctly)they were not least hitting something.You may call this the difference of heroes etc or the demo but what about the tactical opportunities is that also about the beta no?
Speaking of skeletons every time;again I say yes they are numerous yes they are hitty with right skills taken but;first they are numerous because the class skill is called necromancy
second they should be hitty after I have invested so much on them.
Zombies are very bad.They die quickly and with occupying one space they dont block so much.
Wraiths are maybe okay instats but again their tactical opportunities with a wasted ability like harm touch is very low.
We dont talk about how the skeleton mass strategy works we talk about the general balance.If its the only way to win this is not a strategy game.Only creatures that are fine now are wampires I suppose.

Can anyone give me another faction example where there is only one strategy to win?
You are cooking the same old meal(skeleton stuff)and expect us to eat it everytime.We are talking based on logic and based on the examples from previous games,based on experience,based on stats of creatures opportunities,known skill trees so dont hide behind the "all is unknown" stuff.
Look at the nightmare,look at the gremlin,sprite ,cerberi,warden,even treant with its binding ability shows were much opportunities.But right know necro lacks this dimension in some cases which it needs very badly(morale thing for the first case)
But please dont defend the harm touch because its realy that bad.Wraith must be a killer not a dispeller,its uses up the most important turn in the lineup.Transfer the dispel to the specters or something that would be good.Rather than draining manas they should drain all the benefical spells from random enemy targets.

Roland_505
04-19-2006, 02:51 PM
Sounds like Necro will be ok in the end..it seems like they have done a little boost here or there to a couple of the units.

I think to make a bunch of people happy they should just make the Harm Touch ability become like a 50% chance to occur with every attack. As it's a 2x2 unit, you can't really keep 1 unit off by itself very easily just to have in reserve to do the Harm Touch while the main stack attacks

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
To tell the truth, I don't know whether I agree with your last point or not - not enough experience. It WOULD bet better for the Wraiths, obviously - and probably, considering the 1800 cost it might even be right. I admit you are half right - the other half is wrong - Wraiths have Init 11 which is the same as Archangels (and I think one better than Angels); Slow WOULD help, however it might indeed be Cleansed; there might be a Haste spell casted at that. Necro can "cast" Banshee Howl for 0 mana (basic Necro ability) which will lower moral, luck and init of the opposition -1 (should Necro get their œber-skill at any time it's curtains for everyone anyway).
To close this, what *I* would personally like is a -1 on morale for each miss against Ghosts/Spectres for the missing unit. Not much in big battles, but a nice touch.

Oh, for crying out loud - angels are not the only thing that will need debuffing! It's like it pains you to give anything away to Necro - do you hate the faction or something!?!

The -1 morale for unsuccessful strikes against the Ghost sounds nice too, make it cumulative too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif - an even better way to make people look the other way when Ghosts are around... When there give a passive -1 Morale ability to Dragons too, hehe.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by phoenixzs:
We are seeing the whole picture just a bit different than your eyes.The argument about other factions needing skills is not valid.No where near it actually,for instance inferno and dungeon do not have to get anything to make their creatures usefull

No, sorry...you're NOT seeing the whole picture. Are you seeing the inside of the necro town? Are you playing a Necro hero on the adventure map and leveling him up to see how he works? No...on both counts. The only thing about the necro that you see in the demo is the Duel-mode. And that's simply a VERY poor example for looking at the Necro FACTION as a whole.

Inferno doesn't need skills to make it's units useful? How about the Gating skill. Without it...they simply suck. Dungeon...they need magic skills from their hero to offset their ridiculously low numbers. Yes, EVERY faction needs the appropriate skills to be successful. Period.


I played the demo tonight my specteral dragons were no more than some hitty monster flying around.They provide zero tactical opportunity and with even those numbers(15 if I recall correctly)they were not least hitting something.You may call this the difference of heroes etc or the demo but what about the tactical opportunities is that also about the beta no?

Okay, first off...you're talking about the danged Duel mode again. Let me be clear about this...the duel mode is NOT balanced correctly. FAR from it. They don't have the correct number of units, they don't have the correct heroes...and most importantly they don't have but a small portion of the dueling heroes available. There is a MUCH larger collection of duelers....AND they're getting re-balanced...fairly drastically. So, please...OH PLEASE...let's just DROP the arguments based upon the duel mode. It's simply a bad example. Just look at Necro vs Haven for example....6 Archangels versus 15 Spectral Dragons...looks like it should ba an advantage for Necro, right? Nope. Look at the HEROES! Haven: 8 attack, 12 defense. Necro: 2 attack, 6 defense. THAT'S the difference in the duels. It's not even close. So please...lets just drop it.


Speaking of skeletons every time;again I say yes they are numerous yes they are hitty with right skills taken but;first they are numerous because the class skill is called necromancy
second they should be hitty after I have invested so much on them.
Zombies are very bad.They die quickly and with occupying one space they dont block so much.
Wraiths are maybe okay instats but again their tactical opportunities with a wasted ability like harm touch is very low.
We dont talk about how the skeleton mass strategy works we talk about the general balance.If its the only way to win this is not a strategy game.Only creatures that are fine now are wampires I suppose.

Okay, one by one.

Skeleton Archers...these are arguably the BEST level one unit in the game...PERIOD. Sure Assassins are great, but they come in MUCH fewer numbers and they don't get automatically replaced like the skeli's do.

Plague Zombies...Yes, they're one space big. So what? They've got the second highest hit point total of any level 2 unit, they only cost 65 gold each and they come at a base rate of 15 a week. Their att/def stats are of course sub-par...but if you're that concerned with them...boost them with a few spells. But they're basically cannon-fodder...as they should be.

The Ghosts are seriously underestimated IMO. They're cheap, harder than average to kill, plentiful, high initative unit with nice specials. Use them to fly across the battlefield to block enemy archers then ignore them. They last MUCH longer than you'd expect. Especially with a few boosts via hero skills/spells.

Vampire Lords: While they're nowhere near the one-unit-wrecking-crew they used to be, they're still cheap for their level, and a WELL above average unit for level 4. Their base damage is nothing to write home about, but 90% of Necro heroes will get Offense as a skill, and this (along with frenzy) will bump his damage output rather nicely. Take luck as a skill and you're bound to keep most all of your vamps with their Life Drain. With only 35 hitpoints, they could certainly use some Defense skill (evasion, protection & toughness will ALL help in this regard).

Archlich: Just about everyone agrees that this is an excellent unit. The only complaint I ever hear are either about the 4-space size or the selection of spells. Of the level 5 units, only the Inquisitor isn't a large-sized unit, so this is a MINOR thing IMO. Besides, with a 19 att/def stat, they're not easy to knock down in melee anyway. As for the spellbook selection...well, most of the time you'll be using them as ranged attackers, but once you DO get into melee...you'll be glad of those spells. And to be honest, I don't see ANYTHING wrong with Mass Curse, Plague and Weakness...all 3 VERY useful.

The Wraith: As to why people are down on this unit I have NO idea. Nice initiative, excellent att/def stats, excellent damage. While I agree it'd be nice to be able to move to inflict the Harm Touch ability...it's still quite useful. The cursing attack is just icing on the cake IMO.

Lastly, the Spectral Dragon: The biggest complaint I hear about this unit is the low base damage and below average hit points. But I totally disagree with this assessment. For 2 very simple reasons. Growth rate and unit cost. They grow at a rate of THREE per week. All other level 7 units are at a growth of 2 per week. Next, look at their cost. UNDER 3000 gold each!!! Most level 7 units are over 4000 gold each. That's a HUGE difference. So now look a one months worth of units of the Spectral Dragon compared to...ummm....let's say the Archangel.

unit~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Number~~~~~~~Hitpoints~~~~~Min. dam/Max.dam~~~~~Cost
Archangel~~~~~~~~~~~~8~~~~~~~~~~~~~1760~~~~~~~~~~4 00/400~~~~~~~~~~33600+16c
Spec. Drag.~~~~~~~~~~12~~~~~~~~~~~~1920~~~~~~~~~~300/420~~~~~~~~~~34800+16m

Now how exactly is the Spectral Dragon so horrible? Must be thier abilities. *rolls eyes* Just the fact that they're undead gives them numerous bonuses. This is a fact that many here are overlooking. Plus they're a flyer with nice initiative....I sure wouldn't pass them up.


Can anyone give me another faction example where there is only one strategy to win?
You are cooking the same old meal(skeleton stuff)and expect us to eat it everytime.We are talking based on logic and based on the examples from previous games,based on experience,based on stats of creatures opportunities,known skill trees so dont hide behind the "all is unknown" stuff.

No, but then again...neither can you. Necro does NOT just have one way to win. PERIOD! You could win with necro without even using skeletons. Sure, it'd be hard as h&ll...but it could be done. There is, however, one way to capitalize on each individual faction. Utilize the racial abilities to their fullest extent. The key to winning with Necro isn't the skeleton archers...it's Necromancy and all that comes with it. You can't base any conclusions on "previous games" because this is NOT any previous game. Regardless of what anyone thinks, this is NOT Heroes 3.



Look at the nightmare,look at the gremlin, sprite, cerberi, warden, even treant with its binding ability shows were much opportunities. But right know necro lacks this dimension in some cases which it needs very badly(morale thing for the first case)

Fine, look at them. Now look at the necro army and what it brings to the table. It totally negates luck, morale, fear and many spells. While all those units you listed die...the Necro keeps coming back to UN-life. Do each individual unit have a unique ability that makes them extremely effective individually? No. They work together as a UNIT...and in large numbers. THAT's the key to Necro.


But please dont defend the harm touch because its realy that bad.Wraith must be a killer not a dispeller,its uses up the most important turn in the lineup.Transfer the dispel to the specters or something that would be good.Rather than draining manas they should drain all the benefical spells from random enemy targets.

I'm not defending it. I agree that it should work in cooperation with a move. But that doesn't negate the use of this unit. It's still very strong, very mobile and very durable. Overall, this town is VERY versitile, durable and MORE than sufficient to defeat any of the other factions if played correctly. Other than some minor tweeking (that all factions need a bit of) this town is fine as is IMO. But please, lets quit basing opinions on the Duel mode. PLEASE!

akrav
04-19-2006, 04:22 PM
Pls do not compare naked academy troops to other troops.

there will be many games were necropolis can not get 4k-5k SA, while an academy player should always get an artifact, especially for master gremlins...increasing master gremlins dmg by 200%-500%(how developed your hero is).

200 master gremlins with the first artifact(hero lvl 1-3) can do the equivelent of dmg of over 1300 skeleton archers.

hopefully they fixed the gremlin rush.
day 8 in open beta
http://img364.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mgremdmg2ko.jpg

Red_orbiT_
04-19-2006, 04:24 PM
Pretty sure the mini-artifacts has been rebalanced since beta...

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by akrav:
Pls do not compare naked academy troops to other troops.

there will be many games were necropolis can not get 4k-5k SA, while an academy player should always get an artifact, especially for master gremlins...increasing master gremlins dmg by 200%-500%(how developed your hero is).

200 master gremlins can do the equivelent of dmg of over 2000 skeleton archers.

Yet another example of why it's the HERO that wins the battle, not the unit. Artificer.

And yes, Red's correct. But they're still VERY useful.

akrav
04-19-2006, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Red_orbiT_:
Pretty sure the mini-artifacts has been rebalanced since beta...

in what way,im not doubting you, just wanna know how its been changed to be balanced.

chuckles:
its not a hero ability in the respect of any other hero ability in heroes, since any academy hero can buy the units the lowest lvl artifacts and after that the units can go wherever and still have the effect, even if they go under another hero.

ST_Ghost
04-19-2006, 04:33 PM
In duels, he academy units get a random chance of getting an artifact and it does NOT look like it has been rebalanced.

My gremlins for example ended up with an artifact +2 min/max damage.

akrav
04-19-2006, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by ST_Ghost:
In duels, he academy units get a random chance of getting an artifact and it does NOT look like it has been rebalanced.

My gremlins for example ended up with an artifact +2 min/max damage.

guess they havent been changed in the way they work(+dmg is still in).

Red_orbiT_
04-19-2006, 04:36 PM
Sorry, I don't know how they've been rebalanced...

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
But please, lets quit basing opinions on the Duel mode. PLEASE!

If you give me something else I can base my opinions on I would gladly do so... Until then I'll continue making opinions based on the only thing I have at the moment - guess what that is? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And since when do Necro negate Luck?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by akrav:
chuckles:
its not a hero ability in the respect of any other hero ability in heroes, since any academy hero can buy the units the lowest lvl artifacts and after that the units can go wherever and still have the effect, even if they go under another hero.

You can spin that any way you want to. But without the Artificer HERO skill...you wouldn't have those artifacts. So yes, in order to really be successful with Academy...you must incorporate the Artificer skill and boost the stats of the otherwise mediocre troops' stats.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
But please, lets quit basing opinions on the Duel mode. PLEASE!

If you give me something else I can base my opinions on I would gladly do so... Until then I'll continue making opinions based on the only thing I have at the moment - guess what that is? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And since when do Necro negate Luck? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that you only have the duel mode to look at. But for some reason, you and several others here are arguing with JJ about the usefulness of the Necro army/units. We HAVE seen more than the duel mode. Can we show you? No. Non-disclosure agreement is still in effect I'm afraid. But can't you show a little bit of faith and trust in long-time community members who've spent months in helping to polish the game? That's all I'm looking for. Just a bit of trust. Necro does NOT suck. Necro units do NOT suck. Can I prove it...yes, but not without coughing up 50,000 dollars for violating the NDA. And that...I'm NOT gonna do. :O)

As for luck...I phrased that poorly. They're immune to the effects of Luck & Morale. Negate was a poor choice of words. Sorry.

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I understand that you only have the duel mode to look at. But for some reason, you and several others here are arguing with JJ about the usefulness of the Necro army/units. We HAVE seen more than the duel mode. Can we show you? No. Non-disclosure agreement is still in effect I'm afraid. But can't you show a little bit of faith and trust in long-time community members who've spent months in helping to polish the game? That's all I'm looking for. Just a bit of trust. Necro does NOT suck. Necro units do NOT suck. Can I prove it...yes, but not without coughing up 50,000 dollars for violating the NDA. And that...I'm NOT gonna do. :O)

As for luck...I phrased that poorly. They're immune to the effects of Luck & Morale. Negate was a poor choice of words. Sorry.

I've been around too many games the devs of which have asked me and others to trust them blindly only to deliver utter trash. No offense but that line REALLY does not sell with me. I dig arguments only, ones that make sense - the rest is just a waste of time as far as I'm concerned.

The demo is good enough for me to see unit abilities - they are almost never influenced much (or at all) by the hero - thus more or less all of my posts here have been about unit abilities. Harm touch will be just as **** without changing it to be offensive (move & touch) no matter what the hero is like, isn't it? Wasting a whole turn of a Tier 6 stack (in case you don't want to attack the stack that is to be debuffed, which in case of a weak Wraith stack is entirely possible) just as a preparation to use an ability to debuff a single enemy unit stack is asking too much and it can be abused very easily in numerous ways. I really don't need the whole game to realise that.

And as a side note - Necro does not have good initiative - I don't know why you keep saying that about its units - their initiative is average, never good.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
I've been around too many games the devs of which have asked me and others to trust them blindly only to deliver utter trash. No offense but that line REALLY does not sell with me. I dig arguments only, ones that makes sense - the rest is waste of time as far as I'm concerned.

There's the difference. I'm not asking you to trust the developers. I'm saying to trust other fans like yourself who only want the best game possible. The difference here is that Ubisoft actually went out and FOUND long-time fans of the series and put them to work in fine-tuning the game. In general, I also don't trust developers unless they've earned my trust. NWC did that...3do did not. Ubisoft is looking good from what I've seen...but I haven't played any finished product of theirs yet, so I'm holding off judgement in regards to the development team as a whole.

In regards to the Harm Touch ability...I'm not disagreeing with you. But you should be able to agree with me that even if that unit didn't even HAVE that ability...it's still a very viable and useful unit.

Overall, yes...their initiative is average or even below average...but six out of the seven units all have double digit initiative. But toss in a Death Scream and all the opponents initiatives drop 10%. So many of them are pretty darned good IMO. They don't have that one unit with a huge initiative that some towns do, but they're much more balanced than other towns...which makes it harder to focus on one unit IMO.

Naskonni
04-19-2006, 05:23 PM
Let's just say that I hope that you and the others like you will manage to get them to make harm touch offensive, ok? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Final_Boss
04-19-2006, 06:46 PM
I´m hallucinated, really. I´m going to answer generally because my English is very bad and I spend too many time writting something moderately legible:

- "Skeletons archers are the best unit in the game because they are overwhelming numerous"
For God´s shake, necromancy is the necropolis´s special... It´s like say "Inferno´s creatures are the bests because they can gate". Eskeleton archer, as creature, is bad.

- "Wraiths are good because their stats..."
And, what happen with their abilities?
Balor: Vorpal Sword, Spellcaster (fireball, meteor shower, disruptin ray)
Rakshasa Raja: No-retaliation, Dash
Palad*n: Charge, lay hands
And ancient treants are far more useful.

- "The Ghosts are seriously underestimated. They're cheap, harder than average to kill, plentiful, high initative unit with nice specials"
Man, then steel golems, cerberi, hunters, squires and minotaur kings must be GODS for you.

- "Archlichs: And to be honest, I don't see ANYTHING wrong with Mass Curse, Plague and Weakness"
You haven´t played the demo! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif They can cast now Decay, Weakness and Suffering.

- "Spectral dragons: They grow at a rate of THREE per week"
2 per week. You have to build another building for that. Thus it was in the beta and we assumed that thus it is now, until somebody clarify it.

- "You could win with necro without even using skeletons"
Cheater! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Very bad must be the other player for that.


I can´t believe that necro is competitive only because somebody say it. Necro creatures are far less useful than others, I only say what I see.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
I´m hallucinated, really. I´m going to answer generally because my English is very bad and I spend too many time writting something moderately legible:

- "Skeletons archers are the best unit in the game because they are overwhelming numerous"
For God´s shake, necromancy is the necropolis´s special... It´s like say "Inferno´s creatures are the bests because they can gate". Eskeleton archer, as creature, is bad.

- "Wraiths are good because their stats..."
And, what happen with their abilities?
Balor: Vorpal Sword, Spellcaster (fireball, meteor shower, disruptin ray)
Rakshasa Raja: No-retaliation, Dash
Palad*n: Charge, lay hands
And ancient treants are far more useful.

- "The Ghosts are seriously underestimated. They're cheap, harder than average to kill, plentiful, high initative unit with nice specials"
Man, then steel golems, cerberi, hunters, squires and minotaur kings must be GODS for you.

- "Archlichs: And to be honest, I don't see ANYTHING wrong with Mass Curse, Plague and Weakness"
You haven´t played the demo! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif They can cast now Decay, Weakness and Suffering.

- "Spectral dragons: They grow at a rate of THREE per week"
2 per week. You have to build another building for that. Thus it was in the beta and we assumed that thus it is now, until somebody clarify it.

- "You could win with necro without even using skeletons"
Cheater! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Very bad must be the other player for that.


I can´t believe that necro is competitive only because somebody say it. Necro creatures are far less useful than others, I only say what I see.

*grin* Okay, I'm assuming this is directed at me. :O)

First off...I never said they were the best unit in the game. I said they were arguably the best LEVEL ONE unit in the game. And when I say that, I'm talking about in terms of their usefulness...not only thier individual stats. If you look only at the stats and don't take anything else into consideration...Dungeon is the overwhelming leader in powerful units. But you simply CAN'T look at ONLY the stats. This is a very complex game and has numerous facets to it. You must look at the BIG picture.

Next, Wraiths ARE good. Are they better than the Pit Lord, Rakshasha, Paladin, etc? That's debatable. They're certainly not the best level 6 unit. I'm not saying that at all. But they're certainly not bad either. If you get attacked by a stack of Wraiths...trust me, you're going to FEEL it.

Next, in regards to the ghosts...I do stand by what I said. People are looking at them like they're one of the worst units for their level...and they simply aren't. Incorporeal is an unbelievably useful ability. It gives them the ability to stand toe-to-toe with titans if need be. The chance to miss them seems to trigger MUCH more often than you'd expect. I've gone through numerous battles against Ghosts where I've "missed" them over a dozen times in one battle. Thats a NICE ability. Toss in the mana draining one and its an excellent unit.

Actually I have played the demo...a lot. I'm just still stuck with the old spell names in my head. Weakness (remained the same), Decay (was plague), Suffering (was curse).

Next, spectral dragons...yes, I know you have to build an additional building. Fine. But that's a small price to pay to get one additional level 7 per week. Who in their right mind wouldn't build that as long as they had the resources to do it? So yes, I'm still going to say it's 3 per week.

As for winning without skeleton archers...sure it's possible. It's possible to win with Academy without mages. Or any town. It's just more difficult and it'll take MUCH more time. But that wasn't really the point. It was that there isn't just ONE strategy for any town. Take the Inferno for example. This is a highly might-based town. But if I chose to, I could ignore all the might-based skills and focus only on magic spells. I could choose to ignore the gating skill completely. It would be difficult as h&ll to win...but with enough thought and skill...it could be done. (and I was referring to vs. the AI...not another player. Against another human player, it doesn't matter WHAT town you play, if you play it well and with enough skill...you can win with any combination. That's the beauty of this game. Diversity)

Lastly, I completely understand that you guys are only basing your thoughts on what you've personally seen....the duel-mode. I'm simply trying to enlighten you as to the big picture and to attemp to ease your worries. Necro is fine. (Although Academy is still my favorite. Genies rule...even though they stink :O) )

nanogasm
04-19-2006, 07:41 PM
I haven't played multi-player, so I have yet to even taste Necro outside the occasional zombie or skeli I have join me in the demo campaign. Well.. aside that is from skewering them atop my Haven lance.

BUT...

After reading here, I intuitively agree with what Chuckles and others who follow his point are relaying. The Duel shows a snapshot in time of a fight. How a faction will fare in a full map game will be very different.

As much as we can view each fight in and of itself, this game is also about economics over time. Unit costs and # of units added per week are an enormous variable to consider. It distorts unit statistics that are held in a vacuum because you have to consider how long it took you to get X number of troops. Comparing 1 Necro unit versus 1 Haven unit, therefore does not hold.

Like I said, I haven't tested Necro yet. So perhaps I should shut up. But, I've come from enough strategy games akin to HoMM where I see a lot of logic in waiting to see how the faction does in the full game before making judgement from an individual battle.

For all we know, Necro could be in line for a nerf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

nanogasm
04-19-2006, 07:43 PM
EDIT.. gotta love double posts..

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2006, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by nanogasm:
For all we know, Necro could be in line for a nerf. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Actually, it already HAS been nerfed...twice. It's still quite powerful, but compared to the closed beta test versions...it's very "competitive" now. I'm sure they'll still be doing some tweeking from now until the Gold Master.

Mr.Eiki
04-19-2006, 09:28 PM
ill agree with chuckles...

i dont think the units are bad. in duel, its just the numbers and heroes what is not too well done...
i totally love ghosts, at first i hated them but when the opponent starts to waste turns missing on them, it feels great http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

wraight are good, they do good damage, their ability stinks and they should have at least 1 pasive ability (like no retalation like the raksha)...i read that they used to have incorporeal, that would be a good one (not too good, not too bad..but they also have harm touch, which of course should be tweaked a little)

vampires are good too, in duel they seem weak because the armies are not balanced (20 caballiers with charge kill 60 vampires in 1 shot, or the damn elven archers)

decay in lich rocks, i wouldnt mind having them do less damage and to have mass decay :P
they have area damage too which rocks

and as chuckles said... using an unbalanced duel mode as reference is not good

(btw, im loving dungeon "combo" way of fighting... casting a lighting and see the ranged units attack for free, or the riders helping ... where can i find a little bit of info about that? - because it doesnt happen all the time -

bllevinson
04-19-2006, 10:30 PM
Chuckles, i am relatively new to this forum, and just curious, who are you and JJ to have played all the pre-release versions? are you media reviewers or developers, or consultants, or what? just curious, because the two of you are a wealth of knowledge...although you are frustrating me that i cant speed up time till release!!!

chavv
04-19-2006, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by bllevinson:
Chuckles, i am relatively new to this forum, and just curious, who are you and JJ to have played all the pre-release versions? are you media reviewers or developers, or consultants, or what? just curious, because the two of you are a wealth of knowledge...although you are frustrating me that i cant speed up time till release!!! There are people who were betatesters for last 6 months, ie were participating in closed beta-test. Chuckles and Joly-Joker are among them. And this is a known fact - some of betatesters were allowed to say they were part of closed betatest. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-19-2006, 11:56 PM
The free Witch attack is a hero special; the Lizards helping is a creature special.

Final_Boss
04-20-2006, 12:07 AM
*grin* Okay, I'm assuming this is directed at me. :O)
Sorry, I´ve done copy/paste with your commentaries because you say the same that many people, and I didn´t have time to quote all those people http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Plemenit
04-20-2006, 12:21 AM
It's not about necropolis being competitive or not. It's about, as somebody already mentioned, additional strategy that goes with special abilities which necro lacks of.

Special abilities make creatures being characteristic, have "personality", just like heroes with their specials are.

Without them (or without useful and interesting ones) they're just the same punching soulless bags with different stats and animations.

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 02:28 AM
Now I've heard everything.
Plague Zombies: Cumulative Draining strength special (fits nicely into the theme; triggered on attack and defense; fits nicely to "meat shield" function)
Spectres: Incorporeal (probably the most controverse special; very characteristic; fits nicely and you CAN base strategies on them). Regenerating their fallen with Mana Draining: (each point Mana drained = one Spectre resurrected) This somehow discourages the splitting of spell casting creatures. On the other hand it's a hell of a special to take out the pesky magic stacks like Archmages, Druids and stuff.
Vampire Lords: The unit still has the old specials and if I remember correctly they alone were worth a "strategy" earlier. But not know, though. Now those specials suddenly don't seem to be characteristic enough?
Archliches: Again nothing new here. Oh, except that they can cast spells, especially when they cannot shoot due to blockage; fittingly enough that spells all somehow affect the opposition in a negative way.
Wraiths. Enough discussed about them. Certainly a killer unit, but very expensive too, and I'll admit for that high price the special could be a move-and-use one (instead of a stand-and-use). Still the special in itself is great because it generally can solve the damage problem against high level units with spell-based ultra-high defense or other potentially dangerous buffs like Divine Strength. The thing I didn't check is, whether it works against Anti-Magic as well.
Lastly the Dragons. Cursing attack; fits well, as well as the mana-free Necro-attack, Banshee Howl (aka Death Scream), all designed to bog the opposition down, corrupt the troops, make them miss turns, lower their attack and defense and damage and then overwhelm them. For units like Imperial Griffins with their attack range of 5-15 such attacks are pretty deadly.

Yes, the Aging/Death Blow combo is missing - but could you base a strategy on that? Would you hit a unit with the Ghost Dragons with the aim to Age the stack? Mostly the problem was, if you could afford to hit a stack with the Ghost Dragons you didn't need Aging in the first place for THAT stack obviously, so strategy-wise I found it always pretty irrelevant, albeit fearsome on first look.

akrav
04-20-2006, 04:39 AM
vamps might have the same special as in prev games, but they made it pointless.

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 04:50 AM
How so, if I may ask?

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by akrav:
vamps might have the same special as in prev games, but they made it pointless.

It's just weaker, not pointless, or should I say - not weak enough to be pointless. I'll play the full game as to see whether it needs tweaking or not, not easy to tell in the demo with such a **** hero.

akrav
04-20-2006, 05:10 AM
nask:

ye true, the main problem in duel mode is also cause of the crappy hero.

although if their the same as open beta, they arent worth it.

jolly:
in other games vamps were extremely good even overpowered(especially when u could raise them), here they nerfed their lifesteal(the % they can still compared to their max hp) and made them weaker overall.

Baiten
04-20-2006, 05:13 AM
Btw, a little bit more mana for the Necro herslef would be nice, it just doesn't make sense; A ranger with more mana than a Necro

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 05:21 AM
Okay, the H III Vampire didn't have Life Drain at all for the 360 it cost. The H V simple Vampire has it - which looks like an improvement.
The H III Vampire Lord cost 500 gold has att and def 10 each, 40 Health, but does a pathetic 5-8 damage. Health is fully restored. You got 8 of them for 320 Vampire HPs each weak for 4000 gold with a modified attack value (against 10 defense) of 52.
The H V Vampire Lord costs 350 gold, has att and def 9, 35 Health and does 7-11 damage Half the damage is restored as health. You get 10 of them for 350 Vampire HPs costing 3500 gold with a modified attack value (against 10 defense) of 87. Half this for a net drain of 43. Get Frenzy (which wasn't possible in H 3) and the net drain is 48.
With or without Frenzy, what's "pointless" about that?

akrav
04-20-2006, 05:55 AM
oh ok well I just trying them out now and they arent as bad as they were in open beta(seems they steal more hp atm, last time I tested in open beta I lost 3 vamps from ~40 vamps and when I attacked and did over xxx dmg it only gave my vamps 4-6 hp each time).

SteinerNein
04-20-2006, 06:26 AM
Well, let's see.. here's my take on it...

Skeleton archers are fine, perhaps nerf them if your'e going to buff the other units.

Zombies, give them more hp/defense and tweak their initiative a bit.. make them ghouls or some crazy thing so they have lore to make them go faster (frenzied ghouls!?) At least then they'll be more viable second tier. I hate seeing half my army die before they get to be put in action

Ghosts are useless, the best way to solve this? Make a bloody ethereal/incorporeal spell and have them activate it or simply allow them not to be hit until they reveal themselves by actions/AE/whatever, that exposes them for a turn and allows you to axe them. Or something along those lines, and give them some more HP etc.

Vampires, meh I am content with. If used properly with the right buffs they can contend.

Liches? Okay, this is probably the stupidest range unit in the game , not only does it take up four slots but it has a poor spell selection. Just because you have skeleton archers doesn't mean the rest of the unit selection has to suck especially in regards to wipe recovery and in duel situations, overall, I suggest a retooling of their spell line. Their AE attack is fine as is.

Wraiths, they're okay as is but yes I would like their harm touch to be a bit more useful, perhaps have 1 base kill + extra damage based on number in stack, then also purge all magical effects both positive and negative?


Shadow Dragons or w/e, I don't see why you can't give them something more utility, like a point blank AoE that massively lowers morale .

Every race has initiative/morale and rarely does it seem like the penalties really do much. Perhaps what I am suggesting in the end for undead is that all their units cause fear ( OH HEY JUST LIKE WARHAMMER Oh wait there are cold one riders ;( ), so instead of like Sylvan or any other race working off of initiative, luck, morale another viable strategy for Necro is to do the exact opposite super debuff morale, luck,initiative ( I am talking around the negative 5's !). as it stands, currently their debuffs blow as does Nemor the Dark Emissary.

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 06:48 AM
Yeah, right, give them all a fear special that paralyzes the opposition, so you can slaughter them one after another.
So here are some ideas to make the units even better:
Liches: What about a lingering effect for the Deathcloud? It could last 50 turns and add one radius each turn.
Wraiths: Make Harm Touch simply kill one creature for each Wight - after all it's only logical. The Wraiths could get an extra special like the Zombies, Spectres and Vamps below.
Spectral Dragons: Advanced Aging: All stats of the affected stack are halved; 250% probability of effect triggered. Effect is cumulative.
Skeleton Archers: Plague Arrows: 1 point additional Decay damage each turn for hit creatures per Skeleton.
For Zombies, Spectres and Vampire Lords:
Killed creatures will be incorporated as Zombies Spectres and Vampire Lords, respectively.
Now THAT sounds like real fun.

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Yeah, right, give them all a fear special that paralyzes the opposition, so you can slaughter them one after another.
So here are some ideas to make the units even better:
Liches: What about a lingering effect for the Deathcloud? It could last 50 turns and add one radius each turn.
Wraiths: Make Harm Touch simply kill one creature for each Wight - after all it's only logical. The Wraiths could get an extra special like the Zombies, Spectres and Vamps below.
Spectral Dragons: Advanced Aging: All stats of the affected stack are halved; 250% probability of effect triggered. Effect is cumulative.
Skeleton Archers: Plague Arrows: 1 point additional Decay damage each turn for hit creatures per Skeleton.
For Zombies, Spectres and Vampire Lords:
Killed creatures will be incorporated as Zombies Spectres and Vampire Lords, respectively.
Now THAT sounds like real fun.

Yes, it DOES! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

phoenixzs
04-20-2006, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

No, sorry...you're NOT seeing the whole picture. Are you seeing the inside of the necro town? Are you playing a Necro hero on the adventure map and leveling him up to see how he works? No...on both counts. The only thing about the necro that you see in the demo is the Duel-mode. And that's simply a VERY poor example for looking at the Necro FACTION as a whole.

Inferno doesn't need skills to make it's units useful? How about the Gating skill. Without it...they simply suck. Dungeon...they need magic skills from their hero to offset their ridiculously low numbers. Yes, EVERY faction needs the appropriate skills to be successful. Period.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I played the demo tonight my specteral dragons were no more than some hitty monster flying around.They provide zero tactical opportunity and with even those numbers(15 if I recall correctly)they were not least hitting something.You may call this the difference of heroes etc or the demo but what about the tactical opportunities is that also about the beta no?

Okay, first off...you're talking about the danged Duel mode again. Let me be clear about this...the duel mode is NOT balanced correctly. FAR from it. They don't have the correct number of units, they don't have the correct heroes...and most importantly they don't have but a small portion of the dueling heroes available. There is a MUCH larger collection of duelers....AND they're getting re-balanced...fairly drastically. So, please...OH PLEASE...let's just DROP the arguments based upon the duel mode. It's simply a bad example. Just look at Necro vs Haven for example....6 Archangels versus 15 Spectral Dragons...looks like it should ba an advantage for Necro, right? Nope. Look at the HEROES! Haven: 8 attack, 12 defense. Necro: 2 attack, 6 defense. THAT'S the difference in the duels. It's not even close. So please...lets just drop it.


Speaking of skeletons every time;again I say yes they are numerous yes they are hitty with right skills taken but;first they are numerous because the class skill is called necromancy
second they should be hitty after I have invested so much on them.
Zombies are very bad.They die quickly and with occupying one space they dont block so much.
Wraiths are maybe okay instats but again their tactical opportunities with a wasted ability like harm touch is very low.
We dont talk about how the skeleton mass strategy works we talk about the general balance.If its the only way to win this is not a strategy game.Only creatures that are fine now are wampires I suppose.

Okay, one by one.

Skeleton Archers...these are arguably the BEST level one unit in the game...PERIOD. Sure Assassins are great, but they come in MUCH fewer numbers and they don't get automatically replaced like the skeli's do.

Plague Zombies...Yes, they're one space big. So what? They've got the second highest hit point total of any level 2 unit, they only cost 65 gold each and they come at a base rate of 15 a week. Their att/def stats are of course sub-par...but if you're that concerned with them...boost them with a few spells. But they're basically cannon-fodder...as they should be.

The Ghosts are seriously underestimated IMO. They're cheap, harder than average to kill, plentiful, high initative unit with nice specials. Use them to fly across the battlefield to block enemy archers then ignore them. They last MUCH longer than you'd expect. Especially with a few boosts via hero skills/spells.

Vampire Lords: While they're nowhere near the one-unit-wrecking-crew they used to be, they're still cheap for their level, and a WELL above average unit for level 4. Their base damage is nothing to write home about, but 90% of Necro heroes will get Offense as a skill, and this (along with frenzy) will bump his damage output rather nicely. Take luck as a skill and you're bound to keep most all of your vamps with their Life Drain. With only 35 hitpoints, they could certainly use some Defense skill (evasion, protection & toughness will ALL help in this regard).

Archlich: Just about everyone agrees that this is an excellent unit. The only complaint I ever hear are either about the 4-space size or the selection of spells. Of the level 5 units, only the Inquisitor isn't a large-sized unit, so this is a MINOR thing IMO. Besides, with a 19 att/def stat, they're not easy to knock down in melee anyway. As for the spellbook selection...well, most of the time you'll be using them as ranged attackers, but once you DO get into melee...you'll be glad of those spells. And to be honest, I don't see ANYTHING wrong with Mass Curse, Plague and Weakness...all 3 VERY useful.

The Wraith: As to why people are down on this unit I have NO idea. Nice initiative, excellent att/def stats, excellent damage. While I agree it'd be nice to be able to move to inflict the Harm Touch ability...it's still quite useful. The cursing attack is just icing on the cake IMO.

Lastly, the Spectral Dragon: The biggest complaint I hear about this unit is the low base damage and below average hit points. But I totally disagree with this assessment. For 2 very simple reasons. Growth rate and unit cost. They grow at a rate of THREE per week. All other level 7 units are at a growth of 2 per week. Next, look at their cost. UNDER 3000 gold each!!! Most level 7 units are over 4000 gold each. That's a HUGE difference. So now look a one months worth of units of the Spectral Dragon compared to...ummm....let's say the Archangel.

unit~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Number~~~~~~~Hitpoints~~~~~Min. dam/Max.dam~~~~~Cost
Archangel~~~~~~~~~~~~8~~~~~~~~~~~~~1760~~~~~~~~~~4 00/400~~~~~~~~~~33600+16c
Spec. Drag.~~~~~~~~~~12~~~~~~~~~~~~1920~~~~~~~~~~300/420~~~~~~~~~~34800+16m

Now how exactly is the Spectral Dragon so horrible? Must be thier abilities. *rolls eyes* Just the fact that they're undead gives them numerous bonuses. This is a fact that many here are overlooking. Plus they're a flyer with nice initiative....I sure wouldn't pass them up.


Can anyone give me another faction example where there is only one strategy to win?
You are cooking the same old meal(skeleton stuff)and expect us to eat it everytime.We are talking based on logic and based on the examples from previous games,based on experience,based on stats of creatures opportunities,known skill trees so dont hide behind the "all is unknown" stuff.

No, but then again...neither can you. Necro does NOT just have one way to win. PERIOD! You could win with necro without even using skeletons. Sure, it'd be hard as h&ll...but it could be done. There is, however, one way to capitalize on each individual faction. Utilize the racial abilities to their fullest extent. The key to winning with Necro isn't the skeleton archers...it's Necromancy and all that comes with it. You can't base any conclusions on "previous games" because this is NOT any previous game. Regardless of what anyone thinks, this is NOT Heroes 3.


Fine, look at them. Now look at the necro army and what it brings to the table. It totally negates luck, morale, fear and many spells. While all those units you listed die...the Necro keeps coming back to UN-life. Do each individual unit have a unique ability that makes them extremely effective individually? No. They work together as a UNIT...and in large numbers. THAT's the key to Necro.

I'm not defending it. I agree that it should work in cooperation with a move. But that doesn't negate the use of this unit. It's still very strong, very mobile and very durable. Overall, this town is VERY versitile, durable and MORE than sufficient to defeat any of the other factions if played correctly. Other than some minor tweeking (that all factions need a bit of) this town is fine as is IMO. But please, lets quit basing opinions on the Duel mode. PLEASE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First in my opinion inferno creatures are good by themselves.They dont need the gating "that" much which would make them unusefull.
Duel mode or not that flying bag of bone is only flying around and hitting something that is not considered so tactical in my book.
Not just everyone "agrees" the archlich is a fine unit.Almost every post objecting includes these things
-They are awfully big
-They have underpowered spells so everybody uses its ranged attack.
Zombies still very bad.I have traded any creature in the second level with any kind of growth to zombies.
Sure you can win without skeletons.
and why are wraith weak they are not numerous they have the same growth and thus have a heavy duty of balancing the 7th level.So you said it your self its not the best unit in the 6th level but ıt should be the first or second at that level to balance something.Also its ability still sucks

When does necro keep comming back to "un-life" after you lost and loaded the game?
Simply that kind of losses cannot be taken that "lightly" in heroes.

Also being undead is not so much a blessing its rather a curse.Your enemy could easily trample you with good morale and good morale helps very much while cleaning creeps.Low initiative realy kills.

Specteral dragons is that bad still couldnt convince me.Okay being 3000 seems like an advantage but if in overall creature does not fill its purpose on battlefield it doesnt matter how much you paid for it.Also last levels are for money investment and getting performance not for saving money.Its just a flying unit with no tactical opportunies it simply does not belong to that level with those abilities.Last levels usually fill a n important role not by hitting maybe in specteral dragon but something else.Cursing should be more powerfull.Wanna see a tactical unit look no further her is the good old wampire.Thats what I call tactical( I do not mean the overpowering damage but the overall usability).The only creature I know of this kind of brutal nontactical strenght was behemoths which I liked because it fitted to the ideology.But thats not specteral dragons thats behemonth it has to be big and brutal.

Like somebody said skeleton archers are being blamed for every place the necro is weak, nerf them and bring back some tactical opportunities then.I am not going to build my strategies on "oo how can I make my archers more powerfull now" every time I play necro.
Its just soooooo stupid that a faction has to depend on his "1st" levels soooooo much for strategy if you could call it that way(I can not )

SteinerNein
04-20-2006, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Yeah, right, give them all a fear special that paralyzes the opposition, so you can slaughter them one after another.
So here are some ideas to make the units even better:
Liches: What about a lingering effect for the Deathcloud? It could last 50 turns and add one radius each turn.
Wraiths: Make Harm Touch simply kill one creature for each Wight - after all it's only logical. The Wraiths could get an extra special like the Zombies, Spectres and Vamps below.
Spectral Dragons: Advanced Aging: All stats of the affected stack are halved; 250% probability of effect triggered. Effect is cumulative.
Skeleton Archers: Plague Arrows: 1 point additional Decay damage each turn for hit creatures per Skeleton.
For Zombies, Spectres and Vampire Lords:
Killed creatures will be incorporated as Zombies Spectres and Vampire Lords, respectively.
Now THAT sounds like real fun.

Joker,

Yes, because we all know how much morale does right now even at the -3-5 range which is well.. GEE NOT MUCH. Because it's so great having no other strategic or tactical advantage in your units and being forced to streamline into one STRATEGY. Genius.

There's a huge difference between paralyzing and being at best effective.

Right now, with some happy fun time using initiative you can maul through an entire Necro army without really trying not to mention the craptastic mana pool doesn't help either. All you have ARE SKELETONS, and frankly that doesn't give you much of an option as it is after all one unit and it takes a lot of time to accumulate that many or to make them effective.

I am also not asking to play dice here, I am asking to play something more sound, ghosts are a huge gamble and a stupid one at that if you can't see through it then I am pretty sure despite your previous experience it's not being put to good use.

Maybe you enjoy a one trick pony which is what Necro turned out to be in beta but many people don't, after all, whenever I play against a necro all I need is some dispels and an easy way to lock down those skeletons which every race has a way but it's too damn bad it doesn't apply vice versa.

You can also drop the sarcasm.

akito272927
04-20-2006, 08:16 AM
skeletons were key for necro in most of heroes games and they always be **** but free thats why they are good.It no mather idf they shoot arrows or fighy or frt on the battefild as long they are free.

Plus chuckles is right, how do you now how strong is necro if you dint have al habilities at your disposal?

Is true that on past games at least they had 2 best units in they categories. and another very good(vamp,D.knight..lich).

G.dragon was ****, and now is is still ****, nothing changed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif the only reason to have them were to see if you got lucky against a stack of the enemy and age them....because if you got the money you buy as much drad knight you could.

sorry for my english.=)

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by phoenixzs:
First in my opinion inferno creatures are good by themselves.They dont need the gating "that" much which would make them unusefull.
Duel mode or not that flying bag of bone is only flying around and hitting something that is not considered so tactical in my book.
Not just everyone "agrees" the archlich is a fine unit.Almost every post objecting includes these things
-They are awfully big
-They have underpowered spells so everybody uses its ranged attack.
Zombies still very bad.I have traded any creature in the second level with any kind of growth to zombies.
Sure you can win without skeletons.
and why are wraith weak they are not numerous they have the same growth and thus have a heavy duty of balancing the 7th level.So you said it your self its not the best unit in the 6th level but ıt should be the first or second at that level to balance something.Also its ability still sucks

When does necro keep comming back to "un-life" after you lost and loaded the game?
Simply that kind of losses cannot be taken that "lightly" in heroes.

Also being undead is not so much a blessing its rather a curse.Your enemy could easily trample you with good morale and good morale helps very much while cleaning creeps.Low initiative realy kills.

Specteral dragons is that bad still couldnt convince me.Okay being 3000 seems like an advantage but if in overall creature does not fill its purpose on battlefield it doesnt matter how much you paid for it.Also last levels are for money investment and getting performance not for saving money.Its just a flying unit with no tactical opportunies it simply does not belong to that level with those abilities.Last levels usually fill a n important role not by hitting maybe in specteral dragon but something else.Cursing should be more powerfull.Wanna see a tactical unit look no further her is the good old wampire.Thats what I call tactical( I do not mean the overpowering damage but the overall usability).The only creature I know of this kind of brutal nontactical strenght was behemoths which I liked because it fitted to the ideology.But thats not specteral dragons thats behemonth it has to be big and brutal.

Like somebody said skeleton archers are being blamed for every place the necro is weak, nerf them and bring back some tactical opportunities then.I am not going to build my strategies on "oo how can I make my archers more powerfull now" every time I play necro.
Its just soooooo stupid that a faction has to depend on his "1st" levels soooooo much for strategy if you could call it that way(I can not )

In regards to the spectral dragon, I'm sorry...I'm just not seeing whats wrong with it. The titan stands around and attacks at a distance. The S.Dragon FLYS around and attacks in a melee. The Black Dragon flys around and attacks in a melee. Etc, etc. It seems to me that your ONLY problem with them is the special abilities. The cursing attack isn't worthless. Quite the opposite IMO. Many high level units have a WIDE range of attack, and pushing that to the minimum JUST before a retaliatory attack is a nice bonus. Add in the quantities of them AND the price...it's a nice unit.

The Archlichs are awfully big...who cares?!? What about the Genies? What about the Unicorns? What about the Pit Lords? There are LOTS of large units in the game. That doesn't decrease their usability in any way. It just CHANGES the way you play them slightly. And I'm NEVER going to agree with you on their spells being "underpowered". Their spell selection is perfect IMO. It seems to me that you want a direct damage spell or something. Necro is all about curses and de-buffs...why shouldn't the Archlich?

Zombies, zombies, zombies. What SHOULD they be?!? They're glorified basic skeletons with meatier bones and additional special attacks. They're perfect for what they're SUPPOSED to be. People complain because they're too slow...so what? Do you really think the enemy is going to focus their attacks on the Zombies? No. They'll ignore them. THAT'S when the zombies do their work. The enemy will come TO the Necros to off-set the skeletons & liches. So the zombies don't HAVE to cross the battlefield. And one other thing to remember, that special ability that they have gets triggered on attacking OR defending, AND it's cummulative. Are the zombies going to do a bunch of damage? No. But they will make it easier for other units to do it. And they'll do their part in assisting to whittle down the bigger stacks & defending the shooters. They fill their spot nicely. I think you're just expecting SUPER units for every slot.

How does necro keep coming back to "un-life"? Simple...and quite easy to get.

Level 2
Raise Dead (6 Mana)

Reanimates creatures in target friendly stack. Undead creatures are brought back to "life", all other creatures are re-animated for the duration of the battle only.

Notice the difference of this spell for Undead units versus Living ones. In order to bring Living units back to life permanently you'll need Resurrection. A level 5 Summoning spell. So you'll need a level 5 guild built, AND you'll need to get Summoning Skill to Expert. Not a very good school IMO skill-wise (I could be wrong there...I haven't played it very much).

Low initiative? Why do people keep saying Necro has low initiative? Everyone keeps forgetting Death Scream. I can't think of a SINGLE battle where I didn't trigger Death Scream almost immediately. An automatic 10% decrease in the enemies initiative AND a deduction to their overall morale AND luck puts the Necro units RIGHT in line with the other towns...almost perfectly. But even without that, go back and look at the overall initiatives of the other towns, you'll see most towns have 2 or more units with VERY low initiatives and 2 or more with VERY high ones. Necro is very balanced across the board, with only the zombies not having a double digit initiative value. So in that regard...I think they're fine.

Just don't overlook the usefulness of the Raise Dead spell, the Death Scream ability, the Necromancy skill that raises skeleton archers, the No Rest for the Wicked ability that raises even more units after combat, the Haunt Mine ability which allows you to summon ghosts to protect a captured mine (I'm not sure if this ability has been altered, but you could also TAKE those ghosts and add them to your army...but this might have changed). With these things (and most all Necromancers will have ALL of them) you can sustain your army with very little effort...so yes, your numbers will overwhelm your opponent if played properly.

Necro hasn't gotten it's due in H5 yet....but it will. :O)

SteinerNein
04-20-2006, 09:14 AM
Death scream's mitigation is actually pretty poor and if you look at the whole picture it doesn't change much. Furthermore, you'd probably have to pick Nemor in the end to make it semi worth while. Seriously, everytime I trigger death scream and I am not using Nemor it results in Sylvan still owning me and rarely do I see pieces being displaced and lowered. Most of the time you're probably trying to mark/spirit to get back your mighty 20 mana or 30! Yes, and it's also pretty funny how you're relying on the luck of having raise dead show up in your magic guild!

10% isn't much in the end, especially when you're scrambling to raise dead constantly or puppet master because you know the next big single shot is coming up or the big AE while they are content on sitting there making you squirm as you fight that inevitable defeat.

As for the liches, well, again in the higher end battles the mitigation provided by those debuffs are pretty crappy and sometimes downright intrusive, if you're fine with them and we can compromise I'll say I only wish they had more bloody mana.

As for zombies? I never get to use them more than twice in a battle of high stakes mainly because they never get their turn.

And yes, like many other people you seem to enjoy the concept of being a one trick pony. When you've wiped with your army other races can recover decently but necropolis? Good luck farming those 500 some odd skeletons back because your other tier units won't be helping you at all. The fact that other factions can do so with decency speaks of imbalance.

By the way, unit size matters, for something that utterly blows at melee and is somewhat fragile, I don't want it eating more space to be an AE victim and I don't want it to be even more difficult to deal with since I have the rest of my army crumbling to chain lightnings , paladin charges, and a whole slew of other things. Also note, the battlefield is incredibly small it would be a buff to Necro if they were smaller. You don't really use them differently either, they sit there being exposed and you have to force units to shield them where as everyone else gets the luxury of being innately shielded. The size coupled together with the lich abilities gives necro a rather large disadvantage.

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
The Archlichs are awfully big...who cares?!? What about the Genies? What about the Unicorns? What about the Pit Lords? There are LOTS of large units in the game. That doesn't decrease their usability in any way. It just CHANGES the way you play them slightly. And I'm NEVER going to agree with you on their spells being "underpowered". Their spell selection is perfect IMO. It seems to me that you want a direct damage spell or something. Necro is all about curses and de-buffs...why shouldn't the Archlich?

Well, you seem to always drop the ball in a post somewhere and in this one it the thing above. Your examples for the Liches are bad - they suffer badly from being a big unit simply because that makes them much harder to defend as opposed to similar, smaller shooters of the other factions.

Your comparison to Genies, Unicorns and ESPECIALLY Pit Lords is badly thought ont. Genies are weak (and being your favourite unit I can feel your suffering - hehe), so they are in the same boat as Liches in that they are casters that are weak in melee and try to avoid it but they don't have melee penalty, isn't it? And Unicorns? They are melee - they don't fear it, and I would actually hope that my Pit Lords would make use of their strength in melee (Vorpal Sword), they MOST certainly don't fear hand-to-hand - Liches DO though, because of their melee penalty and the fact that you lose your area damage ability immediately - thus even more reason to despise their size.

They are ok stat-wise, and almost ok spell-wise, but their size alone makes them worse than opposition shooters (is there another big unit dedicated shooter with melee penalty?) So, no - their size is not ok http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Unless you think Genies being big unit too is a good thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

akito272927
04-20-2006, 09:50 AM
Lich has area efect, that´s a plus. Plus a mass curse is a very good spell and leaves your hero to cast other spell.

Plus necro always being a dificult town to play with.

Val-Gaav
04-20-2006, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Yeah, right, give them all a fear special that paralyzes the opposition, so you can slaughter them one after another.
So here are some ideas to make the units even better:
Liches: What about a lingering effect for the Deathcloud? It could last 50 turns and add one radius each turn.
Wraiths: Make Harm Touch simply kill one creature for each Wight - after all it's only logical. The Wraiths could get an extra special like the Zombies, Spectres and Vamps below.
Spectral Dragons: Advanced Aging: All stats of the affected stack are halved; 250% probability of effect triggered. Effect is cumulative.
Skeleton Archers: Plague Arrows: 1 point additional Decay damage each turn for hit creatures per Skeleton.
For Zombies, Spectres and Vampire Lords:
Killed creatures will be incorporated as Zombies Spectres and Vampire Lords, respectively.
Now THAT sounds like real fun.

Yes, it DOES! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naskoni :
You know there will be cheat codes in the game ... If u want you may use them I guess it will be fun for u ...

I liked the necropolis in previous games ... It had great atmosphere ... However I cannot play it much , becuse nobody wants to play against it unless it's necro vs necro ... ot conflux vs necro ... I would love to see that necro is as good as other towns in h5 (not better or worse) ...
For now however I must trust Nival and betatesters , however I suspect that at least one of towns in the game will be out of balance ...
It's just my opinion ...

ST_Ghost
04-20-2006, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by akito272927:
Lich has area efect, that´s a plus. Plus a mass curse is a very good spell and leaves your hero to cast other spell.

Plus necro always being a dificult town to play with.

Since when do liches cast mass curse? They do not in the demo and have not in the open beta so where are you taking this misinformation from?

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Val-Gaav:
Naskoni :
You know there will be cheat codes in the game ... If u want you may use them I guess it will be fun for u ...

I liked the necropolis in previous games ... It had great atmosphere ... However I cannot play it much , becuse nobody wants to play against it unless it's necro vs necro ... ot conflux vs necro ... I would love to see that necro is as good as other towns in h5 (not better or worse) ...
For now however I must trust Nival and betatesters , however I suspect that at least one of towns in the game will be out of balance ...
It's just my opinion ...

It seems even a blatantly obvious joke about an absurd suggestion such as Joker's was could easily be understood in the wrong way... Duh...

phoenixzs
04-20-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

In regards to the spectral dragon, I'm sorry...I'm just not seeing whats wrong with it. The titan stands around and attacks at a distance. The S.Dragon FLYS around and attacks in a melee. The Black Dragon flys around and attacks in a melee. Etc, etc. It seems to me that your ONLY problem with them is the special abilities. The cursing attack isn't worthless. Quite the opposite IMO. Many high level units have a WIDE range of attack, and pushing that to the minimum JUST before a retaliatory attack is a nice bonus. Add in the quantities of them AND the price...it's a nice unit.

The Archlichs are awfully big...who cares?!? What about the Genies? What about the Unicorns? What about the Pit Lords? There are LOTS of large units in the game. That doesn't decrease their usability in any way. It just CHANGES the way you play them slightly. And I'm NEVER going to agree with you on their spells being "underpowered". Their spell selection is perfect IMO. It seems to me that you want a direct damage spell or something. Necro is all about curses and de-buffs...why shouldn't the Archlich?

Zombies, zombies, zombies. What SHOULD they be?!? They're glorified basic skeletons with meatier bones and additional special attacks. They're perfect for what they're SUPPOSED to be. People complain because they're too slow...so what? Do you really think the enemy is going to focus their attacks on the Zombies? No. They'll ignore them. THAT'S when the zombies do their work. The enemy will come TO the Necros to off-set the skeletons & liches. So the zombies don't HAVE to cross the battlefield. And one other thing to remember, that special ability that they have gets triggered on attacking OR defending, AND it's cummulative. Are the zombies going to do a bunch of damage? No. But they will make it easier for other units to do it. And they'll do their part in assisting to whittle down the bigger stacks & defending the shooters. They fill their spot nicely. I think you're just expecting SUPER units for every slot.

How does necro keep coming back to "un-life"? Simple...and quite easy to get.

Level 2
Raise Dead (6 Mana)

Reanimates creatures in target friendly stack. Undead creatures are brought back to "life", all other creatures are re-animated for the duration of the battle only.

Notice the difference of this spell for Undead units versus Living ones. In order to bring Living units back to life permanently you'll need Resurrection. A level 5 Summoning spell. So you'll need a level 5 guild built, AND you'll need to get Summoning Skill to Expert. Not a very good school IMO skill-wise (I could be wrong there...I haven't played it very much).

Low initiative? Why do people keep saying Necro has low initiative? Everyone keeps forgetting Death Scream. I can't think of a SINGLE battle where I didn't trigger Death Scream almost immediately. An automatic 10% decrease in the enemies initiative AND a deduction to their overall morale AND luck puts the Necro units RIGHT in line with the other towns...almost perfectly. But even without that, go back and look at the overall initiatives of the other towns, you'll see most towns have 2 or more units with VERY low initiatives and 2 or more with VERY high ones. Necro is very balanced across the board, with only the zombies not having a double digit initiative value. So in that regard...I think they're fine.

Just don't overlook the usefulness of the Raise Dead spell, the Death Scream ability, the Necromancy skill that raises skeleton archers, the No Rest for the Wicked ability that raises even more units after combat, the Haunt Mine ability which allows you to summon ghosts to protect a captured mine (I'm not sure if this ability has been altered, but you could also TAKE those ghosts and add them to your army...but this might have changed). With these things (and most all Necromancers will have ALL of them) you can sustain your army with very little effort...so yes, your numbers will overwhelm your opponent if played properly.

Necro hasn't gotten it's due in H5 yet....but it will. :O)

In your last level examples you forgot to include specialities

Dragons:Breath Attack;still my favorite.Carefull when you fight with a dragon because ıf your creatures are at wrong places dragons take two in the price of one.Thats what I call a strategic ability.You can bring devastation with this ability if you play your cards right.Also some magic resistance wont hurt.

Titan:A ranged attack for last level with no melle penalty "is" tactical.Carefull with what you got near the titan if he is dead titans will get a full attack at close range that will provoke no retaliation.And mind immunity really shine.

Angels:Resurrection is tactical and can change the tides when used right.

Devils:Maybe the least tacticalof this list it can still summon pitlords with gating.Teleport is not so usefull I admit but still gating in the desired location is very good.

Simply specteral dragon has none of these tactical benefits of last level.It posses no special threath more than same strenght flying creature.Also all of these last levels benefit from morale which is a good boost to their initiative.I havent seen bad morale applied to those for a long time,I highly doubt that would happen in Heroes 5.

Second raise dead could be a solution in the begining for looses or could be a solution while killing neutrals but aganist other players it usually isnt so much hope.
First you can only cast "1" spell when the turn comes to you.So you will either cast raise dead,deathscream or something else.Why am I supposed to cast constantly raise dead to keep my creatures from falling appart,does other factions need such a boost from their hero(passive ones dont count since it requires no turn)?No they dont.Also when ı archieve level 2 in summoning since I dont have time to use other spells or abilities there is no point in advancement.I simply dont have the time to use them since I am using my turn for constantly raising the troops.Okay I may be making it a bit too dramatic but even if it is not one but one in three turns isnt that unfair that I have to use one of my three turns just to make my creature work the way I want.
Plus that wont work also since the "other" hero will also cast or do something that would bring more causalities,more than you can ressurect.Maybe actually trying to finish of quickly would make you lose less creatures than trying to raise them.

Zombies are bad because they are only one square big and cant block anything at all.They are supposed to suck the damage dealt to shooters or something.But as you said they are ignored on the battle field.Guess what they are ignored because they are "weak" and do nothing.Okay zombies are slow I can live with that zombies have terrible damage okay I can live with that too but shouldnt they get rewarded with good curse when they catch their target on the rare occasions.If it is rare it has to have some speciality.
?nitiative could be look balanced from the point of stats which I do agree but the initiative is closely related to the morale also.Every army has one or 2 bonuses in morale from here and there.You are only calling death scream to level that bonus.
And what has haunting mine to the with the topic its completely another spell not realted to combat in my opinion.No rest for the wicked works only if you have looses you dont gaing something from that(not a bad skill actually).

I do not underestimate the usability of raise dead but hero combat or the general is not so easy to solve with just one spell.You are completely ignoring the fact that there is an enemy hero and army also fighting while you are casting it.It could be good in some situations but doesnt solve the main problem that much.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by SteinerNein:
Death scream's mitigation is actually pretty poor and if you look at the whole picture it doesn't change much. Furthermore, you'd probably have to pick Nemor in the end to make it semi worth while. Seriously, everytime I trigger death scream and I am not using Nemor it results in Sylvan still owning me and rarely do I see pieces being displaced and lowered. Most of the time you're probably trying to mark/spirit to get back your mighty 20 mana or 30! Yes, and it's also pretty funny how you're relying on the luck of having raise dead show up in your magic guild!

Okay, first off...necro DOES get knowledge. It doesn't have hardly any in the Duel-mode...but normally...yes. So that's not really too much of an issue IMO.

Secondly, getting Raise Dead is not really that much of a luck issue. As a Necro town, you're guaranteed to get one summoning spell & one dark spell in your level 2 guild. There are only 2 level 2 summoning spells...raise dead and wasp swarm. I'd say your odds of getting it are VERY good. (summon boat is an adventure spell).

As for your scenerio versus Sylvan...what's giving you problems? Their pixies you can pick off at a distance with either shooters. The blade dancers will fall like flies to the vamps. The elves can be blocked by the ghosts, or even better yet the dragons. The druids are perfect targets for the ghosts...you'll block them AND you'll resurrect your own ghosts with the mana drain. The unicorns have a tough time moving on the battlefield due to thier size, but taking them out with ranged units while lowering their stats with the zombies works quite nicely. The Treants...they don't come into play that easily except when attacking units who are attacking the Sylvan ranged units. That's why ghosts are great at that...those treants will miss...quite often. That leaves the Emerald Dragons. Wraiths are their targets...then gang attack. Yes, Sylvan's initiative is very nice, but Death Scream WILL help bring it back into a workable margin. And you'll have a nice number advantage over them most of the time.


10% isn't much in the end, especially when you're scrambling to raise dead constantly or puppet master because you know the next big single shot is coming up or the big AE while they are content on sitting there making you squirm as you fight that inevitable defeat.

"scrambling to raise dead constantly"? Why's that? I usually only cast it once OR twice in a battle...near the end of the battle. Because I'm going to get a decent portion of my troops back after the battle anyway due to No Rest for the Wicked and Raise Archers.


As for the liches, well, again in the higher end battles the mitigation provided by those debuffs are pretty crappy and sometimes downright intrusive, if you're fine with them and we can compromise I'll say I only wish they had more bloody mana.

The only time I use the spells with my liches is if they get into melee. But considering I tend to take tactics with my Necros...it's usually not too much of a problem. I turtle my ranged units and decimate the enemy at range while blocking his shooters with ghosts & vamps.


As for zombies? I never get to use them more than twice in a battle of high stakes mainly because they never get their turn.

That's true. But if they serve their purpose in surrounding the ranged units and occasionally get in a hit or two (and lower the enemy stats) then they're doing their job. Do they suck overall...of course. They're supposed to. :O) Wanting good zombies is like saying peasants should be more powerful. *grin*


And yes, like many other people you seem to enjoy the concept of being a one trick pony. When you've wiped with your army other races can recover decently but necropolis? Good luck farming those 500 some odd skeletons back because your other tier units won't be helping you at all. The fact that other factions can do so with decency speaks of imbalance.

LOL. Are you under the impression that every battle you fight will be against a human opponent? Wandering stacks my friend, wandering stacks. Not to mention the fact that they produce VERY quickly in town too. (and if you by chance take leadership/recruitment you'll get access to Herald of Death..."All neutral creatures which joined Necromancer's army will be automatically transformed into the undead creatures of respective level."...VERY nice ability) So generating an army is VERY rarely a problem for Necro.


By the way, unit size matters, for something that utterly blows at melee and is somewhat fragile, I don't want it eating more space to be an AE victim and I don't want it to be even more difficult to deal with since I have the rest of my army crumbling to chain lightnings , paladin charges, and a whole slew of other things. Also note, the battlefield is incredibly small it would be a buff to Necro if they were smaller. You don't really use them differently either, they sit there being exposed and you have to force units to shield them where as everyone else gets the luxury of being innately shielded. The size coupled together with the lich abilities gives necro a rather large disadvantage.

Yes, size matters. But is it a debilitating thing? No. First off, I've already mentioned that I tend to take tactics with Necro. But even if I didn't, there's nothing stoping me from still protecting my archers. Hell, if I'm that concerned with them and I'm facing an enemy that can easily decimate/reach them...I'd leave them out of that particular battle. (don't forget the tactics phase allows that). As for area effect spells...Spellproof bones is a pretty common pick-up for Necro as well. Since Dark magic tends to be the better of the 2 linked schools to Necro, summoning tends to get ignored. But you'll still want access to the level 3 spell Summon Creatures, so most players will take the Sorcery skill instead of Summoning Magic. But truthfully, every situation is different, and I treat them as such. So if I'm going against a great spell caster...I change my strategies. If it's a heavy melee hero/unit...reorganize again. There's no ONE strategy you have to play with necro to be successful (this goes for EVERY town).

Also, the battlefield IS larger than the open beta. So it's quite rare for a paladin to cross the battlefield in one turn. He "can" but only if he's perfectly accross from the target and the target is a large creature. Just one or two terrain obstacles will help solve THAT problem. And yes, a zombie CAN be that obstacle. :O)

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 10:35 AM
Arch Liches cast Decay, Weakness and Suffering.
You might be interested to know that the Formula for Decay for the first 3 is damage (always applied when target gets active for 3 rounds) is
24 + 16n (with n being the number of Arch Liches) starting with 4 8 are added and I think it gets consecutively less.
Now you can argue about that principle (you find it with all casters), but it means, that your 20 Archliches will pack a pretty nice punch with their deathcloud and when they are reduced (and blocked) they will STILL pack a nice punch with Decay.
I mean, 4 Arch Liches do 80 Decay damage - 3 rounds for the target.
Ah, drat, Necropolis really has such weak units...

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Arch Liches cast Decay, Weakness and Suffering.
You might be interested to know that the Formula for Decay for the first 3 is damage (always applied when target gets active for 3 rounds) is
24 + 16n (with n being the number of Arch Liches) starting with 4 8 are added and I think it gets consecutively less.
Now you can argue about that principle (you find it with all casters), but it means, that your 20 Archliches will pack a pretty nice punch with their deathcloud and when they are reduced (and blocked) they will STILL pack a nice punch with Decay.
I mean, 4 Arch Liches do 80 Decay damage - 3 rounds for the target.
Ah, drat, Necropolis really has such weak units...

LOL. I think we should probably just give up. They've obviously made up their minds from what they've seen in the duel-mode and the open beta. It's a shame a little trust is so hard to come by. :O)

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 10:41 AM
Err, people, IF things are halfway balanced you are supposed to LOSE every 2nd game!

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
LOL. I think we should probably just give up. They've obviously made up their minds from what they've seen in the duel-mode and the open beta. It's a shame a little trust is so hard to come by. :O)

Make Harm Touch offensive and *I* will be happy enough... for now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

EDIT: The game is gone gold, so the discussion has become somewhat pointless - nothing will be done before release anymore, so our hopes are for the patches...

phoenixzs
04-20-2006, 10:48 AM
Yes give up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif we made our minds http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Seriously I hope developers taken into account more than we see.I have no intention of ruining a balanced game but this is what I see so I have to express my ideas as a duty because I am a loyal Homm fan http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif .No hard feelings everybody http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
Well, you seem to always drop the ball in a post somewhere and in this one it the thing above. Your examples for the Liches are bad - they suffer badly from being a big unit simply because that makes them much harder to defend as opposed to similar, smaller shooters of the other factions.

Okay, let's look at these similar, smaller shooters.

Unit~~~~~~~~~~~~~hit points~~~~att/def~~~level
M.Gremlin~~~~~~~~~~5~~~~~~~~~~~~3/1~~~~~~~~1
Assassin~~~~~~~~~~~15~~~~~~~~~~~4/4~~~~~~~~1
Skeleton A.~~~~~~~~5~~~~~~~~~~~~1/2~~~~~~~~1

*while all 3 of these units are very solid additions to your lineup, the Skeleton Archer has to get the advantage due to overwhelming numbers.

Marksman~~~~~~~~~~~8~~~~~~~~~~~~4/3~~~~~~~~2

M.Hunter~~~~~~~~~~~14~~~~~~~~~~~5/4~~~~~~~~3

A.Mage~~~~~~~~~~~~~31~~~~~~~~~~10/10~~~~~~~4
Succubus M.~~~~~~~~30~~~~~~~~~~~6/6~~~~~~~~4
Druid E.~~~~~~~~~~~33~~~~~~~~~~12/9~~~~~~~~4

*of these units, the edge would have to go to the Druid Elder due to the overpowered spellcasting ability. In terms of strictly ranged abilities...Succubus Mistress is the hands down favorite here.

Inquisitor~~~~~~~~~80~~~~~~~~~~16/16~~~~~~~5
A.Lich~~~~~~~~~~~~~50~~~~~~~~~~19/19~~~~~~~5

*both VERY solid units, but the great att/def stats and an area attack give the Lich the advantage here.

Matriarch~~~~~~~~~~90~~~~~~~~~~20/20~~~~~~~6

Titan~~~~~~~~~~~~~~175~~~~~~~~~30/30~~~~~~~7

Overall, I'd say that yes...the Archlich stands up quite nicely to his "smaller" shooters from other factions. In fact I'd go so far as to say the Archlich is the best level 5 in the game (maybe in a close tie with the Deep Hydra).

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Overall, I'd say that yes...the Archlich stands up quite nicely to his "smaller" shooters from other factions. In fact I'd go so far as to say the Archlich is the best level 5 in the game (maybe in a close tie with the Deep Hydra).

You are really not showing me anything new here - I already said that the Lich is good enough stat-wise, out of his spell selection Decay is really valuable (for me) vs certain high tier units EVEN if the Lich is not blocked at all (currently I cast Decay the moment their turn comes up vs Tier 6 or 7 - over time it does more damage than simply shooting with them) and his area damage attack IS nice, BUT his big size make this valuable asset very hard to defend vs melee - you need to cover 5! squares to shut it off completely. THAT is the ONLY beef I have with the unit (currently http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif).

Offensively the Lich is good, it's just that for a pure shooter it is damn hard to defend (Inquisitors are small and don't suffer melee penalty, aren't they?). As a Necro fan I value Liches greatly (most probably based on H3 experience, but still). Their true power shines past a certain stack number as only a fool will get into their range and they make a killer stack vs mass attacks as they can hit multiple stacks. The fact that you can mix your units with the enemy (and thus block their progress) because death cloud does not hurt undead means that defensively they are even more valuable, UNLESS they get blocked and this is easily done as they are big. It's hard to keep them fully protected and they should be as they are damn efficient at it otherwise. The size is their true disadvantage. For example trying to get to Sylvan Archer units (all of which are small) past those Treants is next to impossible and EVEN if you do the Treants will "hold" you in check allowing the archers to move away and continue killing you. If Sylvan archer units were big that would have been many times harder (as an example of archer size significance).

To conclude - I can live with the Lich size - I don't like it, but I can. The only thing left on my list is Harm Touch and I'm counting personally on you to have it tweaked for the first patch! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Final_Boss
04-20-2006, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Arch Liches cast Decay, Weakness and Suffering.
You might be interested to know that the Formula for Decay for the first 3 is damage (always applied when target gets active for 3 rounds) is
24 + 16n (with n being the number of Arch Liches) starting with 4 8 are added and I think it gets consecutively less.
Now you can argue about that principle (you find it with all casters), but it means, that your 20 Archliches will pack a pretty nice punch with their deathcloud and when they are reduced (and blocked) they will STILL pack a nice punch with Decay.
I mean, 4 Arch Liches do 80 Decay damage - 3 rounds for the target.
Ah, drat, Necropolis really has such weak units...

LOL. I think we should probably just give up. They've obviously made up their minds from what they've seen in the duel-mode and the open beta. It's a shame a little trust is so hard to come by. :O) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, for the Dragon of Light, now I see the truth!! Decay will save us from Balor´s meteor shower, Druid´s ice bolt, or Archmagi´s fireball!! How could I´ve been so blind? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Please guys, don´t treat us like if we were stupid... Try to face Balors in melee, or try to touch druids and archmagi... with treants, golems, etc, they are nearly untouchables... Archlichs are stupid HUGE shooters with melee penalty, they are vulnerable to everything that you can imagine! Their spells can be dispelled, but fireball, meteor shower, and ice bolt NOT!! For God´s shake and all the fu**ing dark gods of the universe!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

akito272927
04-20-2006, 11:29 AM
ohh thats la lot of god cursing.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Oh, for the Dragon of Light, now I see the truth!! Decay will save us from Balor´s meteor shower, Druid´s ice bolt, or Archmagi´s fireball!! How could I´ve been so blind?

Please guys, don´t treat us like if we were stupid... Try to face Balors in melee, or try to touch druids and archmagi... with treants, golems, etc, they are nearly untouchables... Archlichs are stupid HUGE shooters with melee penalty, they are vulnerable to everything that you can imagine! Their spells can be dispelled, but fireball, meteor shower, and ice bolt NOT!! For God´s shake and all the fu**ing dark gods of the universe!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Oh, wait. Now that you mention it...they're also vulnerable to Armageddon, and Eldritch Arrow, and Wasp Swarm, and etc, etc, etc. So are every OTHER unit just about. They should dump the Matriarchs because they're easy to decimate with a stack of about 5000 gargoyles. It's easy to come up with ANY scenerio where ANY unit is vulnerable. That's how it's supposed to be. But you're talking like it's going to be Pit Lords versus Archlichs ONLY (sorry, I refuse to call them Balors...that's NOT their name :O) ) They're part of a GROUP. But I don't see any troop(s) standing up long to the Pit Lord's Meteor Shower or the Druid's Icebolt. So try blinding them, or freezing them, or whatever you can do to help disable them. It's not just the A.Liches vs the Pit Lords. And how about we turn what you said around...how about trying to hurt the Archliches in melee with the Skeleton Archers attacking IN range, the Wraiths attacking in melee and the Vampires cleaning up? Not everything is one-sided F.B.

As for protecting them....just out of curiosity, what units are the most devastating to the liches in terms of melee attacks? Paladins? Unicorns? Nightmares? Genies? Raksashas? Hydras? Guess what folks...those are all large units. Put those Archliches in the corner and it'll only take 2 units to protect them...NOT five. So that leaves SMALL units that can reach them in melee. Pixies? War Dancers? Blood Witches? etc....VERY few of these units will be able to do much damage against the Archlich with a defense stat of 19 PLUS the hero's stat-boost. Yes, he's got a melee penalty, but with an attack of 19...he'll still decimate most of the small spaced attackers in melee. Everyone is reaching for these scenerios that put the Archlich in the worst light possible. Just accept it, it's an EXCELLENT, well rounded troop. Large OR small.

Farax85
04-20-2006, 12:16 PM
little offtopic:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Necro don't have luck/morale(they are alwayes neutral), right?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 12:20 PM
correct.

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Farax85:
little offtopic:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Necro don't have luck/morale(they are alwayes neutral), right?

Right! Which means all those nice bonus buildings, artifacts, and hero skills are well, useless... I can understand morale, but why not luck - even a dead bone can get lucky every now and then, no? Because of the possible overpowering effect on thousands of SA?

H5forem
04-20-2006, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Farax85:
little offtopic:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Necro don't have luck/morale(they are alwayes neutral), right?

Right! Which means all those nice bonus buildings, artifacts, and hero skills are well, useless... I can understand morale, but why not luck - even a dead bone can get lucky every now and then, no? Because of the possible overpowering effect on thousands of SA? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not realy... luck work on the undead (or is just a bug) some liches join to me and they have a lucky attack... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by H5forem:
Not realy... luck work on the undead (or is just a bug) some liches join to me and they have a lucky attack... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Hmmm...interesting. Maybe it's just the Necromancer it doesn't work on. That'll take some testing. :O)

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Naskonni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Farax85:
little offtopic:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Necro don't have luck/morale(they are alwayes neutral), right?

Right! Which means all those nice bonus buildings, artifacts, and hero skills are well, useless... I can understand morale, but why not luck - even a dead bone can get lucky every now and then, no? Because of the possible overpowering effect on thousands of SA? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not realy... luck work on the undead (or is just a bug) some liches join to me and they have a lucky attack... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Chuckles here, who is supposedly much better informed than us, is saying otherwise. I hope he is wrong to be honest... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As a matter of fact once he gave the advice to get luck as to help Vampires in the damage department so he might as well be http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

phoenixzs
04-20-2006, 12:48 PM
As far as I know necro creatures are subjected to luck.Undead condition is immunity to mind effecting spells and uneffected by morale.Correct me if am wrong though.

ST_Ghost
04-20-2006, 01:34 PM
Yep Undead are affected by luck.

And Chuckles: You need 2 large or 3 small units to seal off a lich http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by ST_Ghost:
Yep Undead are affected by luck.

And Chuckles: You need 2 large or 3 small units to seal off a lich http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nope, 2 large are not enough and neither are 3 small. You need to cover all 5 squares if the lich is in the corner - do the math http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That is if you want to seal it off completely of course.

ST_Ghost
04-20-2006, 01:41 PM
I was talking about sealing it off from a large creature http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by ST_Ghost:
Yep Undead are affected by luck.

And Chuckles: You need 2 large or 3 small units to seal off a lich http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


As for the luck...I haven't played any necro in the Demo (I've dueled ONCE)...and I pretty much stayed away from the open beta. I just don't recall how it worked in the preview version off the top of my head. Sorry.

As for protecting a lich....I was already assuming I'd have a unit to the left of them from the original placement. This is how I normally set up with Necro....

http://www.the-genies-lamp.com/images/h5_images/alpha_screenshots/Undead_start.jpg

So I normally move the Wraiths into the white area to block off attackers. Small units can still get in there, but the Wraiths usually make QUICK work of them. The Vamps & Ghosts head across to block archers & hit spell casters. It's not how I do it EVERY time...but its my basic set-up. So either one large blocker does it....or I could have 2 small units do the work.

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 02:14 PM
Frankly, I never read such a pile of misinformed junk. You don't WANT to shield the Liches, for god's sake, except from Paladins and Dungeon's Grim Raiders, you can figure out the reason for yourself.
By the way, the Duel mode you are so fond of: you do realize that it's the darn HERO there who wins the fight, not his creatures, right? You DO realize, that it's Ossir who wins it and not your Spectral Dragons who lose it, right?

Farax85
04-20-2006, 02:20 PM
Thanks C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s (were those _ nececary http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ?) and every one else.
Another(sorry again) offtop:
Whose face is hidden under the wraights hood?
Is it some sort of ester egg? Someone could check it(i think it's only possible in buying mode)?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 02:21 PM
Well, I'm not quite sure I see your point there JJ. I understand wanting to block the charging attacks. That's obvious. And you also WANT the enemy to come to you...eliminates the range penalties. But why not shield the liches at all? *feels dumb not seeing the reason* Hmmmm....

Final_Boss
04-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Oh, wait. Now that you mention it...they're also vulnerable to Armageddon, and Eldritch Arrow, and Wasp Swarm, and etc, etc, etc. So are every OTHER unit just about. They should dump the Matriarchs because they're easy to decimate with a stack of about 5000 gargoyles. It's easy to come up with ANY scenerio where ANY unit is vulnerable. That's how it's supposed to be. But you're talking like it's going to be Pit Lords versus Archlichs ONLY (sorry, I refuse to call them Balors...that's NOT their name :O) ) They're part of a GROUP. But I don't see any troop(s) standing up long to the Pit Lord's Meteor Shower or the Druid's Icebolt. So try blinding them, or freezing them, or whatever you can do to help disable them. It's not just the A.Liches vs the Pit Lords. And how about we turn what you said around...how about trying to hurt the Archliches in melee with the Skeleton Archers attacking IN range, the Wraiths attacking in melee and the Vampires cleaning up? Not everything is one-sided F.B.

As for protecting them....just out of curiosity, what units are the most devastating to the liches in terms of melee attacks? Paladins? Unicorns? Nightmares? Genies? Raksashas? Hydras? Guess what folks...those are all large units. Put those Archliches in the corner and it'll only take 2 units to protect them...NOT five. So that leaves SMALL units that can reach them in melee. Pixies? War Dancers? Blood Witches? etc....VERY few of these units will be able to do much damage against the Archlich with a defense stat of 19 PLUS the hero's stat-boost. Yes, he's got a melee penalty, but with an attack of 19...he'll still decimate most of the small spaced attackers in melee. Everyone is reaching for these scenerios that put the Archlich in the worst light possible. Just accept it, it's an EXCELLENT, well rounded troop. Large OR small.
Wait, wait, wait, Lichs aren´t as vulnerable as Balors (pit lords http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ), and much less than druids or mages, because these two last ones can be defended much better. "You have to see the big picture" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, not only stats.

Sorry, but I can´t accept that my army only is a legion of skeleton archers more doped than a elite cyclist, accompanied by potato-creatures.

Everytime I say "this necro creature is bad", somebody say "but skeletons can cover them, support them, hug them, kiss them...", man, they aren´t omnipresent, and they aren´t as powerful as people say.

But, are the inferno´s creatures weak cause gating? are the academy´s creatures weak cause (overpowered) artificer? no, but not only that, these creatures are AWESOME. And seriously, necropolis is weak cause necromancy, only because H3 fan-fanatics have complained until reaching the dark side of the absurd, not because the faction´s philosophy is "weak but numerous". As simple as that.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Wait, wait, wait, Lichs aren´t as vulnerable as Balors (pit lords http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ), and much less than druids or mages, because these two last ones can be defended much better. "You have to see the big picture" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, not only stats.

Either this is sarcasm, OR you meant to say Lichs are more vulnerable than Pitlords, etc. As to how the others can be defended much better...I don't see how. Just because of their size? I've already posted HOW they can be defended effectively. This town you WANT the enemy to come to you. You WANT them in range of your archers and your slower moving Zombies.


Sorry, but I can´t accept that my army only is a legion of skeleton archers more doped than a elite cyclist, accompanied by potato-creatures.

Okay, first off...that was funny. :O) Secondly, I never said the necro is only skeletons. In fact I've said the opposite. You can win with Necro WITHOUT skeletons. Are they a huge bonus? Of course. But if they get neutralized in some way...you've still got a viable army there. Despite what some people want to say.


Everytime I say "this necro creature is bad", somebody say "but skeletons can cover them, support them, hug them, kiss them...", man, they aren´t omnipresent, and they aren´t as powerful as people say.

Again...I'm not saying that. ALL of the troops support each other. It's not just all about skeletons. In h3...it WAS all about skeletons and Vampire Lords. That's just no longer the case in h5. All the units must work together and in cooperation with the heroes skills/abilities to really succeed. But this is true for ALL the factions. Do some factions have troops with better stats? Of course they do. But they also have lower unit production and different skills/abilities. The Necro skills/abilities continually add to the number of units...and the stack sizes dramatically improve the effectiveness of the otherwise lackluster stats.


But, are the inferno´s creatures weak cause gating? are the academy´s creatures weak cause (overpowered) artificer? no, but not only that, these creatures are AWESOME. And seriously, necropolis is weak cause necromancy, only because H3 fan-fanatics have complained until reaching the dark side of the absurd, not because the faction´s philosophy is "weak but numerous". As simple as that.

I truthfully don't believe ANY of the factions are weak. Look at the Dungeon for example. The units have unbelievable stats. The hero deals fantastic spell damage. But that same hero gets little to no Attack and Defense statistics...and over time, the more might-oriented heroes will bring their otherwise lesser stat troops up-to or surpassing the stats of the Dungeon troops...PLUS they'll have numbers. To compensate for this, the dungeon has very useful creature abilities AND the Racial skill enhances the inherant spell power of the Warlock. It's never as simple as it seems on the surface.

One last thing....I'm not meaning to argue or start a fight...just good old lively debate. :O) Hopefully you (and no one else) will take any offense to any of this. *grin*

Jolly-Joker
04-20-2006, 02:56 PM
Chuck, the opposition don't stays put to let the death cloud roll over them. Moreover, the Liches have the range penalty. So the Death Cloud is ok, but not overwhelmingly so. Basically, if the opponent makes a faulty initial deployment, you may get in one good shot with them.
Personally I feel that it's wrong to cover them. They have good stats, so the important thing is, they don't vanish in any attack. Blocked or not, the Decay attack will count, so the "initial blockage" doesn't matter. However, suppose, you DON'T cover the Liches (you have to cover the Skeletons). What will happen? Someone will want to take advantage and BLOCK them. Now you can't block Liches with some silly unit like Sprites. It has to be a fast one AND it has to be a tough one. It has to be a good one. Does it make sense to send Unicorns or Dragons or Genies to the front and leave the rest behind? Nope.
I think, with Necro you need a tight formation. Discipline, if you want. You have Spectres and Vamps to roam freely and take advantage of everything that "presents" itself. One opening and the opponent doesn't have shooters anymore. The rest MUST be kept tight.
The Liches are the perfect bait.
If I see your deployment right, than a fireball will hit Liches, Skellys, Zombies, Wraiths and Dragons (if not there's a slit between Dragons and skellys). Archmages can cast Fireball. Everyone except Castle can cast Fireball. Inferno might cast Fireball and get a Chain Shot in. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 04:23 PM
Okay, I see what you're going for. Leave them unblocked as "bait". As for my formation...that's just a basic template. It totally depends on my enemies. If it's against a human opponent...yeah, I leave it more spread out. I basically do it the same way you describe...but I wasn't leaving the liches COMPLETLY unblocked. I always left a small window...to sucker the weak fast units over...but that was it. I'll give it a try with them wide open....well, eventually I'll try it. *grin*

Final_Boss
04-20-2006, 05:23 PM
I´ve discovered that the game is finished now... well, it has been a pleasure to debate with all of you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Sorry if I´ve offended somebody in some occasion, not was my intention, surely it was cause of my bad english, by which english babies cry, and old illustrated men have convulsions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I hope that this thread has influenced something in the final result of the game. Probably it´s hope too much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Naskonni
04-20-2006, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
I´ve discovered that the game is finished now... well, it has been a pleasure to debate with all of you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Sorry if I´ve offended somebody in some occasion, not was my intention, surely it was cause of my bad english, by which english babies cry, and old illustrated men have convulsions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I hope that this thread has influenced something in the final result of the game. Probably it´s hope too much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hope it will influence Harm Touch. That would be enough.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 06:30 PM
While it was already probably too late to make any effect of the final game when this thread was STARTED...it's not too late to make adjustments via the patch. They're already planning a fairly extensive patch either right at release, or shortly thereafter. (I'm hoping it'll include the Map Editor & help file...but that's just a guess)

akrav
04-20-2006, 06:39 PM
modders could create a simplified map editor for the game, in the worse case scenario.

its possible to edit the demo maps, and theres many files that actually have documentation at the top telling you whats going on in those files.

Ubergrits
04-20-2006, 07:03 PM
I have kinda sorta been keeping tabs on this thread. I am pretty anxious to play Necropolis just to test out a couple things I have in mind. Just from reading that HOMM page I do kinda see that their creatures are physically weaker but I did wanna throw a couple questions out. Can wraiths harm touch no matter how many are in a stack? I was just curious if you split a group up in to like 3 50 skeletons and 5 individual wraiths if those wraiths could kill 5 creatures. That would work nice against the stacks of titans and other 6s and 7s on the adventure map. And that leads to more exp, items and resources which is always good. I dunno, it just seems like the necro town is built around an almost rush like mentality, where you sacrifice skeltons to beat down nuetral stacks for quick resource edges. Anyways, since I don't really know I could be all wrong heh. Necro seems kinda like Undead from warlords battlecry, where they suck unless you build a specific hero or something. Anyways, I guess I am rambling,

Sly

OoNebsoO
04-20-2006, 07:36 PM
Can wraiths harm touch no matter how many are in a stack?

Yeah, and some people want it to be more powerful. Lafautlaud.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-20-2006, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by akrav:
modders could create a simplified map editor for the game, in the worse case scenario.

its possible to edit the demo maps, and theres many files that actually have documentation at the top telling you whats going on in those files.

AAAAAAAHHHH! NO, NO, NO, NO! :O)

Don't worry, there WILL be an editor. It's "possible" it'll be with the final version, but if not...it'll still come via a patch. I'm just not sure if it'll be the VERY FIRST patch is all.

If you couldn't tell...I hate mods. Yes...even WoG and Equilibris. Yuck!

Naskonni
04-21-2006, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by OoNebsoO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Can wraiths harm touch no matter how many are in a stack?

Yeah, and some people want it to be more powerful. Lafautlaud. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously you have problems understanding that having 5 Wraith stacks will leave no more space for the rest of your army + good luck moving them all around, not to mention how "useful" and "powerful" such splitting tactic would be vs tier 1-5 units - simply mindblowingly overpowered, anyway you look at it. Better take the whole ability away altogether, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Red_orbiT_
04-21-2006, 03:46 AM
I thought the harms touch ability was supposed to be the polar opposite to the haven champions(paladins? upgraded cavalry anyway) lay on hands... lay on hands works like the old cure spell, heals top stack unit and removes curses, while harms touch kills top stack unit and removes blessings. Why is nobody complaining about lay on hands?

Final_Boss
04-21-2006, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Red_orbiT_:
I thought the harms touch ability was supposed to be the polar opposite to the haven champions(paladins? upgraded cavalry anyway) lay on hands... lay on hands works like the old cure spell, heals top stack unit and removes curses, while harms touch kills top stack unit and removes blessings. Why is nobody complaining about lay on hands?
Nobody complains because paladins can charge everytime, doing a great amount of damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Infiltrator-SF
04-21-2006, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Nobody complains because paladins can charge everytime, doing a great amount of damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You do realize it's the hero that specializes in paladins/cavaliers, improving their charge damage, right?

Plemenit
04-21-2006, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by Final_Boss:

Nobody complains because paladins can charge everytime, doing a great amount of damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Exactly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Huh.. and how cool is to make a simple opposite of another ability..
Anyway, if they keep harm touch the way it is, it could at least make the harmed stack immune to all positive spells (including dispel and cleansing) for the next few rounds, but still subject to negative spells.

Plemenit
04-21-2006, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:


You do realize it's the hero that specializes in paladins/cavaliers, improving their charge damage, right?

Yes, we do realise that 20 paladins killing 15 wraiths IN ONE HIT is a little bit unusual.

We're not ******ed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Final_Boss
04-21-2006, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Nobody complains because paladins can charge everytime, doing a great amount of damage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You do realize it's the hero that specializes in paladins/cavaliers, improving their charge damage, right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why whenever I open the mouth everybody thinks that I´m talking about duel mode? I know that Klaus give charge bonus, everybody can see it right-clicking on paladins during combat. I only say that paladins do great damage when they charge, isn´t true? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-21-2006, 04:53 AM
That special was completely out of whack. In some game I remeber 10 CAVALIERS doing 2500 damage to a Horde of Mages - and 250 damage per Cavalier seemed a bit unusual http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Infiltrator-SF
04-21-2006, 05:23 AM
Well, regardless of duel or not, just box in and plague the paladins if you don't have the direct damage to outright kill them.

Naskonni
04-21-2006, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Well, regardless of duel or not, just box in and plague the paladins if you don't have the direct damage to outright kill them.

Using spells such as Plague on a Haven army is most probably useless - one word - Dispel...

Infiltrator-SF
04-21-2006, 05:40 AM
Honestly, I wonder if some people who comment here about balance ever played the franchise before. If he's losing turns to dispell instead of use divine guidance or more useful things, you've still got the upper hand. Plague will deal some damage before he is able to dispell it.

Naskonni
04-21-2006, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Honestly, I wonder if some people who comment here about balance ever played the franchise before. If he's losing turns to dispell instead of use divine guidance or more useful things, you've still got the upper hand. Plague will deal some damage before he is able to dispell it.

Guess which hero has less knowledge and whose troops are good enough (or outright better) as they are even without the spells? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have you tried out your advice or yet again you're theorycrafting, because I've tried it and it wasn't a good idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As to whether Decay will do ANY damage depends on the initiative of the decayed unit and the one of his hero, no?

Ask yourself the question - if I cast mass decay on half of your army would you ignore it or dispel it knowing how little knowledge my hero has anyway and what is the mana cost of each spell? Mass dispel works wonders in that regard. Try it out and see for yourself...

Pitsu
04-21-2006, 05:59 AM
Decay does damage instantly + when the creature acts. Dispel has a chance to failure depending on caster/dispeller spell powers.

Plemenit
04-21-2006, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Well, regardless of duel or not, just box in and plague the paladins if you don't have the direct damage to outright kill them.

And why not just toss them in the air or make a hole in the ground and bury them? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

It's not "just".. they have high initiative and it's not that easy to "box" them before they kill a whole stack of one of your high level units.
Anyway, it's not about paladins, this topic is about necropolis.

Naskonni
04-21-2006, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Pitsu:
Decay does damage instantly + when the creature acts. Dispel has a chance to failure depending on caster/dispeller spell powers.

Hmmm - I've never witnessed a mass dispel fail. Then again I only have the demo...

I'm pretty sure Decay acted only if the creature turn came up, even initially - might be wrong, have to recheck... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-21-2006, 06:12 AM
No, Pitsu is wrong. There is NO immediate damage. Only when the creature is acting.

Infiltrator-SF
04-21-2006, 07:06 AM
I'm pretty sure it does instant damage, at least in the demo.

MrOELOELOE
04-21-2006, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
I'm pretty sure it does instant damage, at least in the demo.

I am not pretty sure, I am 100% sure.

ST_Ghost
04-21-2006, 07:59 AM
In the demo, decay does instant damage + damage per round.

And its very easy to dispel.

I have yet to lose a game with haven vs necro even if he uses mass decay etc and i play at least 20 duels a day.

Jolly-Joker
04-21-2006, 08:09 AM
It might depend on the level of Dark Magic a hero has. There is no instant damage with a hero without Dark Magic, that's for sure. It might even be a hero special.

Pitsu
04-21-2006, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
It might depend on the level of Dark Magic a hero has. There is no instant damage with a hero without Dark Magic, that's for sure. It might even be a hero special.

Duel hero special is banshee howl (death screem). BTW I have also version 0.8 (the one for previews) and decay does instant damage even if casted by a ranger (lvl 1 or higher) with no dark magic. There was no instant damage in open beta though.

Arghmage
04-21-2006, 08:27 AM
Am I'm the only one that thinks that Necropolis is MUCH TO STRONG?

On a normal map they'll will have double that much level 7 creature and ten times more level 1 creature when they met the other player.

With that they'll easy crush every enemy.


So if you want to have a competitive necropolis you have to lower the stats of the units.

OoNebsoO
04-21-2006, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Naskonni:

Obviously you have problems understanding that having 5 Wraith stacks will leave no more space for the rest of your army + good luck moving them all around, not to mention how "useful" and "powerful" such splitting tactic would be vs tier 1-5 units - simply mindblowingly overpowered, anyway you look at it. Better take the whole ability away altogether, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And obviously you think just of some final big battles, with full array of creatures.What about neutrals? Some lv.6 or lv.7 guards...some great results could come from that.

And not sure what's your point about not being powerful against lv.1-5. So what? You use different attacks on them. Not everything have usefulness against everything.

ST_Ghost
04-21-2006, 09:05 AM
Where do you get all those preview and pre-realease versions? I only know of open beta and demo... (well, and closed beta)

Final_Boss
04-21-2006, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Arghmage:
Am I'm the only one that thinks that Necropolis is MUCH TO STRONG?

On a normal map they'll will have double that much level 7 creature and ten times more level 1 creature when they met the other player.

With that they'll easy crush every enemy.


So if you want to have a competitive necropolis you have to lower the stats of the units.
I said this many times: You only get +1 S.Dragon per week if you BUY another building, and anyway they are far weaker than other lvl-7 creatures.

And don´t forget that necromancy is the faction special, like artificer for academy or gating for inferno http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jolly-Joker
04-21-2006, 09:56 AM
Boss, that building costs 3000 gold, 10 O and 5 M. So what the hell are you talking about? It means you have tp pay 38000 Gold to get 3 Spectral Dragons. It's 50000 for Titans, for example.

Jolly-Joker
04-21-2006, 09:59 AM
I checked Decay again in my game version. No instant effect. Strange.