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LouLewis1967
12-15-2011, 07:48 AM
Just throwing some things against the wall here. Is it possible, in a relatively "universal" way, to reduce the visual detection range of the AI? Second, is it possible to shrink the sub's sonar detection range (meaning the range at which the little green light on the sonar comes on to show a contact)?

I find these two functions to be out of whack with what I've read from both books and raw reports.

tenakakhan_1981
12-15-2011, 08:22 AM
Insofar as I know the game files in Program Files/Ubosoft/Silent Hunter 4/Data are all configurable if you open them with Notepad. However as to which specific values you need to change to achieve the effect you're after and also to keep the game stable, I wouldn't even try and guess.

It may be safer for you to adopt one of the Supermods that cater to realism, such as Real Fleet Boat. Trigger Maru is the option of choice for me personally, but then I'm after a blend of realism and playability, not necessarily too concerned with very high realism values.

Overall, in the absence of better advice from other (and far brainier) individuals on here, I'd personally recommend sticking to Mods that have been released and tested, rather than tweaking too much yourself. Just my thoughts though! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LouLewis1967
12-15-2011, 09:41 AM
I have been playing TMO w/ RSRDC as my mod setup for well over a year. So I feel like I have the game adjusted to what the best modders have to offer.

I'm just wondering about how the game would play if you could shrink both side's detection capabilities a little.

paulhager
12-15-2011, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by LouLewis1967:
I have been playing TMO w/ RSRDC as my mod setup for well over a year. So I feel like I have the game adjusted to what the best modders have to offer.

I'm just wondering about how the game would play if you could shrink both side's detection capabilities a little.

As I understand it, TMO does sacrifice some realism in favor of playability. It is impossible for a US player to do the sorts of maneuvers that O'Kane did. For example, O'Kane made a night attack in which he slipped into the spot vacated by a convoy escort and, from there, sliced into the convoy - ON THE SURFACE - and attacked from within it. He then escaped ON THE SURFACE. O'Kane repeatedly did that sort of thing.

TMO gives both escorts and merchants vast and unrealistic improvements in visual ranges. That said, figuring out how to balance all of the different elements that go into sighting, weapons accuracy, crew performance, and so on, is extremely complex and must be done within the limitations imposed by the game engine itself which cannot be changed - it's set in the code. All of this must also produce something that players will find acceptable. I use and like TMO and understand the compromises/choices that are behind it.

I'd guess that in the SubSim mod forum there would be extensive discussion of the various headaches and tradeoffs that modders have to make. I'm sure that if you invest the time and effort you could get answers. Maybe you could produce the definitive mod in terms of realism. I you do, please make it available to the community.

Good luck, sir.

LouLewis1967
12-15-2011, 10:28 AM
Paul, you basically read my mind. That attack by O'Kane is one of the things that got me wondering about how different the game settings are from the war. I think that attack was the one where the transport tried to ram Tang, only to miss and crash into the freighter, while Tang was avoiding and firing stern tubes at both of them as they collided.

Not that I want to be doing that all the time.

paulhager
12-15-2011, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by LouLewis1967:
Paul, you basically read my mind. That attack by O'Kane is one of the things that got me wondering about how different the game settings are from the war. I think that attack was the one where the transport tried to ram Tang, only to miss and crash into the freighter, while Tang was avoiding and firing stern tubes at both of them as they collided.

Not that I want to be doing that all the time.

I've posted a lot in this forum on the night surface attack. I think there is one post titled something like "The art of the night surface attack". Basically, late war you need to have long range torpedoes - Mark 14 or Mark 16. If you want to retain some measure of historical fidelity, you go with the Mark 14.

In many ways, the Mark 14 is superior to the Mark 16 because it has the low speed setting. You will be attacking from long range - normally in excess of 7,000 yards - and the torpedo speed of the Mark 14 at the "slow" setting gives you plenty of time to escape on the surface. I recall there are a number of night engagements described in the Dana Andrews career on this forum. In it I used a mix of Mark 14's and Mark 18's.

MWolfe1963
12-15-2011, 11:04 AM
Well, it's a mix of values in the sim file, don'


[AI detection]
Lost contact time=30 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Light factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=1 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=1 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=0.5

You would have to play with each factor to really get what you want, but sensitivity and detection time play a large factor. They're many adjustments you can make here and elsewhere, but remember when you adjust visuals it effects gun range, etc.

MWolfe1963
12-15-2011, 11:06 AM
I kept a copy of this saved written by Ducimas explaining things much better than I could, hope it helps.

[TEC] Adjusting the AI - cliff notes version

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:
The following is a terse version of my understanding on how to adjust the AI. That is to say, this is how i think it works. Im not saying authoritively, that his is how it works. Although im obviously confident enough about my understanding of it to make this post.

This is a condensed version because i honestly dont have the time or motivation to write out the essay that this could become. So here's he cliffnotes speil in no particular order:


------------------------------------------

Adjusing the AI as a whole i feel is comprised of the following:

- crew rating in campaign files
- defines the minium sensor signal strength the AI will respond to, and accuracy.

- AI_sensor.dat
- defines the geometry of active/passive sonar
- Sim.cfg
- the real guts of it, defines the parameters to illicet a response from the AI

- depthcharges. sim/zon
- becomes important when a response from the AI has been succesfullly made.

----------------------------------

AI_sensor.dat

- JP hydrohpones are "type3" and "type93" with a P annotated on the end for passaive.

- JP sonar is the same, only with an A nnotated on the end for active.

- It's beleived when sensitity is set 0, the game uses the senstivity rating defined in the sim.cfg. Else, it uses the value in the AI_sensor.dat

- It is NOT neccessary to establsh a min range on active sonar due to the downward gemoetry of the beam. If you go deep enough, you'll get under the sonar.

- Max Elevation defines the doward angle of the beam, hence dictates how easy, or hard it is to get under that sonar types active beam.


----------------------------
SIM.CFG (stock examples being shown)

Quote:
[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.2
Waves attenuation=0.75

Defines the height and trough of waves. Greatly effects visual sensors, and has many adverse side effects. USE GREAT CAUTION when playing with this variable. Frankly, i dont recommend touching it.

Quote:
[AI detection]
Lost contact time=15

Defines how long the AI will activly look for you after detecting you. Also dictates response from nearby AI units. When player is detected, the detecting AI broadcasts its discovery to all nearby units. If your within 15 mins reach, they will come to look. At 16 mins, if another detection of the player is not made by then, the AI will go back to what it was doing.



Quote:
[Visual]
Detection time=0.5
Sensitivity=0.01
Fog factor=1.0
Light factor=1.0
Waves factor=1.0
Enemy surface factor=400
Enemy speed factor=15


- Think of the AI as a traffic cop. To get a ticket, you must be in violation of certain rules. Likewise, for visual detection to occur, you must be in violation of certain parameters.

- speed factor in this case means that you must be doing 15 kts or more for the AI to notice you.

- Surface factor means how much surface area of your sub you must be presenting to the AI in order for him to notice you.

- Ive long suspected that for visual detection to occur, you must be breaking both of the above listed paremeters to get a response, but ive not conclusvly proved that. Its either A, or B, or All of the above, im not 100% positve.

- detection time. You must be exceeding the surface and speed factors for this amount of time to illiicet a response.

- Fog/light/wave factors. Think of them as enviormental dampeners, or how much the enviorment handicaps the AI. Smaller the number the less the handycap, the larger the number, the more the handycap.



Quote:
[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1
Sensitivity=0.03
Height factor=0
Waves factor=0.5
Speed factor=15
Noise factor=1.0

- Player noise is dicated by motor RPM. The more RPM, the more noise your making. and if in Silent running or not. Silent running behaves boolean. Its either on, or off.

-detection time, how long you can make alot of racket before the AI takes notice.

-speed factor in this case dictates how fast the AI can go, and still be able to use this sensor. At 16kts, he can no longer hear anything.

- noise factor seems to dictate how much of your motor noise the AI can hear at a given range. Arbitary numbers, 0.25 is quite sensitive, 1.0 is quite deaf.

- waves factor is your standard enviormental handycap. 0.5 being quite the handycap, 0.95 being barely a handycap at all.



Quote:
[Sonar]
Detection time=20
Sensitivity=0.03
Waves factor=0.5
Speed factor=20
Enemy surface factor=200
Lose time=30

- for player detection to occur (IE, to get the AI to ping), you must
A.) present him a favorable surface factor as defined by said variable
b.) be within his sonar cone as defined by the AI_sensor.dat
c.) be doing all of the above for the length of time specified by the detection time.

- stock, detection time being 20, alot of ground can be covered in that time by yourslf, or the AI. hence the AI is often not able to keep you within his sonar cone and presenting a favorable surface factor during that time. WHich is why you dont hear it ping a whole lot.

Depthcharges:sim/zon

SIM:
- fall speed, self explantiory

- depth percision, sets area at which DC will randomly explode when set at a given depth by the AI. FOr example, with a depth percision of 20, if the AI sets the DC to explode at 160feet, then the DC could randoly expldode anywhere between 140 feet and 180 feet. Default game setting is a depth percision of FIVE.

- explosion range, defines how much of the depth charge's shock wave you can feel. Does no damage. By raising this value, the closer the DC is, the more your boat will shake when it explodes DO not go overboard with this, as said shockwave can (if you set it high enough) acutally propell the boat in the water at high speeds. Rather humorous, but highly unrealistic.

ZON:
Min/Max EF
-defines min and max damage range.

- Min radius. Defines the area at which the depth charge will do full damage. Default i beleive is 4.5, meaning if the depth charge explodes within 4.5 meters of your sub, it does full damage.

- Max radius, defines outward radius that damage is applied by diminishing returns. Meaning if you have a depth charge at 4.5 min raadius and and a 40 max radius. this means that anywhere witin 4.5 meters the depth charge does its full damage. From 4.5 meters outward to 40 damage is still applied but less damage is applied to the player sub at 39 meters then at 5 meters. The farther away you are from the center of the explosion, the less damage it does. 4.5/40 is the game default.



Misc remarks on the AI in general:

- Does not ping without reason. (IE, be in sonar cone, presenting favorable profile to said sonar cone, and be doing both for X amount of time)

- Ai has two states. Normal and alert. You see it all the time. When alerted the threshold values are heightened in order to more easily illicet a response from the AI.

- The AI can only use active or passive at a singluar moment in time, it cannot do both. YOu see this all the time whenever you raise your periscope. WHen you do, your using yoru visual sensor, and your hydrophone contacts are tempoarly lost until you stop using your visual sensor (periscope). AI works the same way. A or B, it cannot do both at once.



Thats all i got, im out of time. Hopefully i didnt fat finger this and make a huge mistake somewhere.

MWolfe1963
12-15-2011, 12:04 PM
Don't forget, better to make some new folders and copy existing files and make yourself a new mod, rather than adjust the stock game or your supermod, with jsgme rather easy.

I play with AI all the time and copied the data/Cfg/sim file from TMO and placed in a new folder called NewSIMadjs. Easier to make your own small mods than start screwing up your larger base mods.

Just use the same path..

LouLewis1967
12-15-2011, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by MWolfe1963:
Don't forget, better to make some new folders and copy existing files and make yourself a new mod, rather than adjust the stock game or your supermod, with jsgme rather easy.

I play with AI all the time and copied the data/Cfg/sim file from TMO and placed in a new folder called NewSIMadjs. Easier to make your own small mods than start screwing up your larger base mods.

Just use the same path..

So, if I copied the files to new folders in that way, I would just activate that as a mod after the regular supermod?

MWolfe1963
12-15-2011, 02:15 PM
Yea, just create a folder and call it whatever you want then create folders within it following the correct paths to the file.

For instance first folder NewSim, within it another folder must be named data, within the data folder a folder named Cfg and you can place within that a copy of the sim.cfg folder, so the path is

Modname/data/Cfg/sim..

You can copy the entire Cfg file is you want or just the files within it that you want to use, to change visuals you would play with sim and sensors in the cfg file.

make your changes

drop it in the mods folder, then activate jsg.

Much easier to do this, much quicker to load and unload your small changes, rather than TMO itself. Just remember each time you want to change your mod you must deactivate it, make changes, then reactivate it.