Crowd Mechanic as an Addition to the SC series. Not the core

[NitroExtreme]

First off let me point out I'm one of the hardcore Splinter Cell fans. Heck the reason I bought my original Xbox was for Splinter Cell. Now I've always played SC for the single player and more recently the co-op. So now that you know where I'm coming from let me begin my rant.

I love the idea of new crowd mechanic. But I don't like how ubi is using it. Instead of using the mechanic as the core it should have been used as an ADDITION to the series. For those of you who have read the books you'll know what I mean. Imagine this: Sam starts off as a civilian, sneaks into the building or target area using the crowd mechainc, finds a room, changes into his cat suit and boom back to classic splnter game play. Basicly instead of starting off at your insertion point you would have to get there on your own. That would be the ultimate SC game. O well maybe SC 6. Wait never mind Shaghai will be making that one next year.. so maybe SC 7. lol

Although I still have faith in Ubi Montreal, heck they did an amazing job with Chaos Theory and DA xbox.
So what do you guys think?

[ox Se7eN xo]

first off let me explain that the books have no bearing to the games

in fact they suck

secondly, he's a FUGITIVE!! meaning he doesnt HAVE the goggles, the weapons or the CAT SUIT as you say

[Th3C47]

Originally posted by S7N:
first off let me explain that the books have no bearing to the games

in fact they suck

secondly, he's a FUGITIVE!! meaning he doesnt HAVE the goggles, the weapons or the CAT SUIT as you say

Well, yeah, and that sucks, because that's what Splinter Cell is all about.

[simulacra]

So now splinter cell is a suit?
which one? The full slimfit one or the one where he's got camo fatigues?

And why would he change into the sneaksuit once he's in the building? why not keep going as he is?
I really think that some need to realize that there's more to sc than dark patches in rooms, black clothes and the goggles...

[ox Se7eN xo]

yeah, who looks more out of place?

a guy wearing jeans and a hoodie, or a guy in a latex suit with three glowing lights on his head and a machine gun strapped to his back?

[LoneInTheDark]

I liked the books. The second being my favorite. It was the editing that was deplorable. It was nice getting inside Sam's head, learning his grandfather or father, can't remember which, was ex military, the history behind him and Regan. The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

[SPROGGY]

Originally posted by LoneInTheDark:
The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

EXACTLY! The game developers have seen this and want to correct it. They dont feel like theyve fleshed out the character of Sam Fisher sufficiently enough. Conviction is, in large part, about getting to know Sam and what hes made of.

[EmmaJordan]

Originally posted by deepego3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LoneInTheDark:
The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

EXACTLY! The game developers have seen this and want to correct it. They dont feel like theyve fleshed out the character of Sam Fisher sufficiently enough. Conviction is, in large part, about getting to know Sam and what hes made of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kudos for them....

For my part, however, I would rather play a game that allowed me to be the hero and particpate in what makes him great... rather than to explore his character, his insecurities, his faults or other aspects of his humanity..

[ox Se7eN xo]

we saw the hero version of Fisher in SC, PT and CT (though we did see a litte of Fisher's humanity in CT)

in DA we saw the emotional side of him and how he copes with his daughter's death

there's no point in going back on itself and have Fisher as a hero when he is already an emotional wreck

Conviction isnt about him saving the lives of others, it's about him saving his own life. there's no heroism in it, he's out for himself

[EmmaJordan]

Originally posted by S7N:
we saw the hero version of Fisher in SC, PT and CT (though we did see a litte of Fisher's humanity in CT)

in DA we saw the emotional side of him and how he copes with his daughter's death

there's no point in going back on itself and have Fisher as a hero when he is already an emotional wreck

Conviction isnt about him saving the lives of others, it's about him saving his own life. there's no heroism in it, he's out for himself

Here is a new game idea... Let's call it "REHAB"... one man, saving his own life... one step at a time. There can be 12 missions....Each one will be a "step" in a "12 step program".

Nah... I like the "hero" side of Sam Fisher that was displayed in the first three games.

[ox Se7eN xo]

lol!

[BurningDeath.]

Originally posted by S7N:
we saw the hero version of Fisher in SC, PT and CT (though we did see a litte of Fisher's humanity in CT)

in DA we saw the emotional side of him and how he copes with his daughter's death

there's no point in going back on itself and have Fisher as a hero when he is already an emotional wreck

Conviction isnt about him saving the lives of others, it's about him saving his own life. there's no heroism in it, he's out for himself
Not really.
(Spoilers: )
Actually, he is going back to the "hero business" at the beginning of SCC until he discovers that 3E is not the same anymore and one of his friends (Grim) gets into trouble. He then tries to save her, not his own life and there's quite a lot heroism in that, if you ask me.

[ox Se7eN xo]

my point was he's out to save himself (and one other person) not the whole world as he was in previous games

[BurningDeath.]

Originally posted by S7N:
my point was he's out to save himself (and one other person) not the whole world as he was in previous games
Well, that sounded a whole lot different before. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[ox Se7eN xo]

"Conviction isnt about him saving the lives of others, it's about him saving his own life. there's no heroism in it, he's out for himself"

"my point was he's out to save himself (and one other person) not the whole world as he was in previous games"

looks like it was pretty close to the same to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

[Stealth_chill]

Originally posted by LoneInTheDark:
I liked the books. The second being my favorite. It was the editing that was deplorable. It was nice getting inside Sam's head, learning his grandfather or father, can't remember which, was ex military, the history behind him and Regan. The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

i agree, the books are fantastic. it is an amazing book series and it doesnt suck what so ever. they make you get inside sam and learn more about him. his tactics, ego, relations, fears, and abilities more in depth. They shuld definetly make a movie about these books cause each one keeps you in sespence.

hey S7N, have you read all the SC books?

[ox Se7eN xo]

no, i havent read any of the books

well, actually that's a lie, i read the first three or four pages on Amazon (you know that "Take a peek inside!" thing) and thought just from those pages that it sucked

and i also chose not to read them on the basis of several people from this forum who i used to know very well who also said the books sucked

[SPROGGY]

Originally posted by EmmaJordan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deepego3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LoneInTheDark:
The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

EXACTLY! The game developers have seen this and want to correct it. They dont feel like theyve fleshed out the character of Sam Fisher sufficiently enough. Conviction is, in large part, about getting to know Sam and what hes made of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kudos for them....

For my part, however, I would rather play a game that allowed me to be the hero and particpate in what makes him great... rather than to explore his character, his insecurities, his faults or other aspects of his humanity.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately for you, youll have to settle for doing both!

[CoastalGirl]

I liked the books too, especially the first two. I agree about the editing, but it really didn't bother me that much.

[ox Se7eN xo]

Originally posted by BurningDeath.:
Not really.
(Spoilers: )
Actually, he is going back to the "hero business" at the beginning of SCC until he discovers that 3E is not the same anymore and one of his friends (Grim) gets into trouble. He then tries to save her me.


where'd you find that out? havent read it in any of the previews, you got a link?

[Hypno1988]

Originally posted by S7N:
where'd you find that out? havent read it in any of the previews, you got a link?

Splinter Cell Conviction begins with Sam living the good life in the Mediterranean. He's retired from work as a spy and has been living in a remote place, hidden after his Double Agent assignment. As is usually the case for people such as Fisher, trouble starts brewing. Ubisoft hinted to us that trouble with Anna is what draws Sam out of his cocoon. Regardless of the reasons why, Conviction will find Sam compelled to go back to Third Echelon and rejoin its ranks.

"Most, if not all, decisions Sam will make in this game are driven by his own morals," Mary De Marle says. "In fact, the very fugitive idea is driven by Sam's morals. He could have stayed hidden somewhere, however his ideas about a 'greater good' are stronger than his own safety."

Once Sam rejoins Third Echelon, he finds things have changed in his absence. What was once a model and efficient department has now become dysfunctional and filled with red-tape at every pass. Even worse, while trying to work within the crummy new system, Sam discovers a plot involving people he once trusted. Being the good guy that he is, Sam can't just sit back and ignore things. For the greater good, he's forced to work against his former employer, thus making the former golden child of the NSA the most wanted fugitive around.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/788/788888p1.html

[LoneInTheDark]

Thanks for posting the link Hypno. Some of the ideas behind SCC is making more sense. I took a look at the images and the one with Sam standing alone, it just does not look like him. His eyes are not brown, they are green. He also looks too small.

[ox Se7eN xo]

ah yes, i remember reading that now

well, i take it all back, he aint out just for himself

my bad

[EmmaJordan]

Originally posted by deepego3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EmmaJordan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deepego3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LoneInTheDark:
The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

EXACTLY! The game developers have seen this and want to correct it. They dont feel like theyve fleshed out the character of Sam Fisher sufficiently enough. Conviction is, in large part, about getting to know Sam and what hes made of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kudos for them....

For my part, however, I would rather play a game that allowed me to be the hero and particpate in what makes him great... rather than to explore his character, his insecurities, his faults or other aspects of his humanity.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately for you, youll have to settle for doing both! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, some "hero"... he gets to beat up cops.

[Azanode]

Splinter Cell Conviction begins with Sam living the good life in the Mediterranean. He's retired from work as a spy and has been living in a remote place, hidden after his Double Agent assignment.

I think they should've ended Double Agent and the entire Splinter Cell series like this.

[EmmaJordan]

Originally posted by Azanode:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Splinter Cell Conviction begins with Sam living the good life in the Mediterranean. He's retired from work as a spy and has been living in a remote place, hidden after his Double Agent assignment.

I think they should've ended Double Agent and the entire Splinter Cell series like this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And miss an opportunity to see Sam Fisher as a street bum or to explore the stealth mechanics of the "hoodie"?? You've got to be kidding me! (Sarcasm intended).

[SPROGGY]

Originally posted by EmmaJordan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deepego3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EmmaJordan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deepego3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LoneInTheDark:
The books made him human, the games made him a hero.

EXACTLY! The game developers have seen this and want to correct it. They dont feel like theyve fleshed out the character of Sam Fisher sufficiently enough. Conviction is, in large part, about getting to know Sam and what hes made of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kudos for them....

For my part, however, I would rather play a game that allowed me to be the hero and particpate in what makes him great... rather than to explore his character, his insecurities, his faults or other aspects of his humanity.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately for you, youll have to settle for doing both! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, some "hero"... he gets to beat up cops. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many cops or soldiers did he beat up in other countries in the previous SC's? You cant possibly believe that all of those guys were terrorists or had bad intentions. Youre not even attempting to rationalize his actions or empathize with the position hes in. Hes doing what he has to do to survive and to help his friend. Youre telling me you wouldnt do the same thing if you were him?

[MKCC14]

Same is being nice just beating them up, he isnt shooting them with his gun, or using a knife or any other deadly object that should be throughout the world to harm them. He is just simply knocking them out. We havent seen anything yet to do with Sam killing a guard or civilians.

[NitroExtreme]

Originally posted by S7N:
first off let me explain that the books have no bearing to the games

in fact they suck

secondly, he's a FUGITIVE!! meaning he doesnt HAVE the goggles, the weapons or the CAT SUIT as you say

I never said anything about him having his gear in conviction. Omg did you even read my post. All I said was how I think the crowd mechanic should be put into a spinter cell game, not how it already is. And since you haven't read any of the books I would think first before posting ignorance.

("So now splinter cell is a suit?
which one? The full slimfit one or the one where he's got camo fatigues?

And why would he change into the sneaksuit once he's in the building? why not keep going as he is?
I really think that some need to realize that there's more to sc than dark patches in rooms, black clothes and the goggles..." simulacra )

Read the books and you'll know why.

[ROLNIK]

Instead of using the mechanic as the core it should have been used as an ADDITION to the series.
They've spent too much time working on flying chairs and printers to make it an "addition", but who knows...

[simulacra]

Why should I read the books? They're "official" fan fiction at best, if the books preceded the games and written by Clancy himself I would accept the books as being "true" to the franchise.

Therefore your answer to my post is redundant since the books in no way are required read to follow the series, logically IF sam is trained in espionage and covert ops (which we'll have to assume he is) he would know that changing clothes after you penetrate the target is stupid, what if he has to evade the site in a hurry?
all you do is lose time and adding another unknown element to the equation, as if breaking and entering wasn't stressful enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
If the excrement hits the fan and the whole building lights up in alarms, it's easier to just dump the goggles he carried in his bag in a nearby dumpster and vanish off walking.
Running down a street in a black nylon bodysuit is far more overt than walking into a crowd with or without the hood.

you run when you're discovered, wearing sneaksuits are perfect for penetrating enemy territory where your very presence in the country is illegal, but in scc we see more of a overt covert op ie hide in plain sight.

[marinius]

QUOTE]Originally posted by deepego3:

How many cops or soldiers did he beat up in other countries in the previous SC's? You cant possibly believe that all of those guys were terrorists or had bad intentions. Youre not even attempting to rationalize his actions or empathize with the position hes in. Hes doing what he has to do to survive and to help his friend. Youre telling me you wouldnt do the same thing if you were him?[/QUOTE]

See that's the thing; some of us don't feel the need to empathize with Sam. I, for one, have no interest in viewing him as an actual person. He's a tool which I use to enjoy great games with original and truly entertaining gameplay. I'd like him to be a super-spy who through my playing him is able to do things I never will be able to in real life. Now, I understand that other people feel differently about the character of Sam Fisher, which might account for part of the reason why there's this ongoing pro/con-debate.

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by simulacra:
Why should I read the books? They're "official" fan fiction at best, if the books preceded the games and written by Clancy himself I would accept the books as being "true" to the franchise.
You're kidding, right?

The books are supported by TC and Ubi. I'd say that makes them pretty true to the franchise...

[simulacra]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by simulacra:
Why should I read the books? They're "official" fan fiction at best, if the books preceded the games and written by Clancy himself I would accept the books as being "true" to the franchise.
You're kidding, right?

The books are supported by TC and Ubi. I'd say that makes them pretty true to the franchise... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, you mean like GR2 which incidentally also were OK:ed by TC but was the worst combat game ever, the name "Tom Clancy's" is not the mark of quality as it once were, actually it lost that when UBI bought Red Storm...

But you're right, the books are not FAN fiction since the writers are commissioned.

The TC brand is sold, he personally has nothing to do with the products that are released under his name, not even the books.
TC made his fiction great because of his personal knowledge of the intelligence community, if he doesn't write his own stuff it's nothing but fiction.

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by simulacra:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by simulacra:
Why should I read the books? They're "official" fan fiction at best, if the books preceded the games and written by Clancy himself I would accept the books as being "true" to the franchise.
You're kidding, right?

The books are supported by TC and Ubi. I'd say that makes them pretty true to the franchise... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haha, you mean like GR2 which incidentally also were OK:ed by TC but was the worst combat game ever, the name "Tom Clancy's" is not the mark of quality as it once were, actually it lost that when UBI bought Red Storm...

The TC brand is sold, he personally has nothing to do with the products that are released under his name, not even the books.
TC made his fiction great because of his personal knowledge of the intelligence community, if he doesn't write his own stuff it's all fantasy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LoL Well, what about Ubi? If TC's okay doesn't mean anything, does theirs?

[ox Se7eN xo]

Originally posted by NitroExtreme:
I never said anything about him having his gear in conviction. Omg did you even read my post. .

erm, i think you find you did, right where you said "finds a room, changes into his cat suit and boom" in your first post

so yes, i CAN read, it seems that you just forget what you write

[forsaken2shadow]

has anyone else noticed how horrible the AI shown in convictions is so far? Ubisofts idea was to make the game more realistic but i dont believe they know how to accomplish that. The social stealth so far appears to be just as unrealistic as the other games and more annoying because the stupidity of the AI is going to be more noticeable. The whole game is going to rely on the crowds and their realism, so they have so much approvement that needs to be made from the footage shown so far. Also, sam's moves need to be fixed. With the footage so far, if i was to base my opinion on it now, i would say the game is garbage. Hopefully Ubi has way more up their sleeve than what has been shown. and i think their taking the game in the wrong direction .

[MKCC14]

Originally posted by forsaken2shadow:
has anyone else noticed how horrible the AI shown in convictions is so far? Ubisofts idea was to make the game more realistic but i dont believe they know how to accomplish that. The social stealth so far appears to be just as unrealistic as the other games and more annoying because the stupidity of the AI is going to be more noticeable. The whole game is going to rely on the crowds and their realism, so they have so much approvement that needs to be made from the footage shown so far. Also, sam's moves need to be fixed. With the footage so far, if i was to base my opinion on it now, i would say the game is garbage. Hopefully Ubi has way more up their sleeve than what has been shown. and i think their taking the game in the wrong direction .
So was the demo of SCCT, it was glitchy and had ******ed AI. Did you see that in the end product?

[EskimoBob32]

Haha, you mean like GR2 which incidentally also were OK:ed by TC but was the worst combat game ever, the name "Tom Clancy's" is not the mark of quality as it once were, actually it lost that when UBI bought Red Storm...

But you're right, the books are not FAN fiction since the writers are commissioned.

The TC brand is sold, he personally has nothing to do with the products that are released under his name, not even the books.
TC made his fiction great because of his personal knowledge of the intelligence community, if he doesn't write his own stuff it's nothing but fiction.

I agree with you in some parts, but others I don't. For one, Clancy himself would often make tehcnical mistakes in his fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Six_%28novel%29#Factual_inaccuracies). Also, none of the games were ever written by Clancy, only endorsed, and seeing as he also endorsed the books that makes them every bit as official as the games.

According to wikipedia, "Games bearing the Tom Clancy name, including Splinter Cell and the Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon series, must receive approval from Clancy himself to earn his endorsement. Some of the aspects of games that he looks for include realistic weapons, military tactics, and health systems for the game's characters."

I see no military tactics in ConViction. I see a guy who does things on the fly, makes it up as he goes along, and beats up anyone who gets in his way. The only reason this can bare the Tom Clancy title is because it bears the Splinter Cell title, which has already been endorsed. Perhaps this is the reason they chose this as a Splinter Cell path rather than a separate franchise?

[forsaken2shadow]

nope.

[Gears-of-Ownage]

To tell the truth, not trying to bring down the fisherists, mostly people play the game for its gameplay and not Sam. ( not saying the fisherists don't like the gameplay ) What I am saying is the truth, and is what people should realize.

Say someone is walking into a gamestore that has played the old splinter cells. They buy Conviction and see that it isn't the old gameplay anymore, but something entirely different and focuses just on Sam. I doubt that this customer would be happy.

Most people buy the game for its gameplay regardless of story, period.

[Georg_Maximus]

Originally posted by Gears-of-Ownage:
Say someone is walking into a gamestore that has played the old splinter cells. They buy Conviction and see that it isn't the old gameplay anymore, but something entirely different and focuses just on Sam. I doubt that this customer would be happy.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

[simulacra]

And that matters in what way?
Are ubi gonna slave under the "shadow" of sam forever?

As I said, it's their franchise, they know what they want with it and have the technical skills to acheive it, if that makes some hardcore shadow/lightfans upset so be it.
It's time that game went into the more emotional realm, just look at heavensly sword, digtal acting, completely mocaped, even the minute movement of eyelis and nostrils to make the characters look more human.
Emotion is what make films lighyears ahead in games when it comes to gripping the viewer.

[Georg_Maximus]

Originally posted by simulacra:
And that matters in what way?
Are ubi gonna slave under the "shadow" of sam forever?

Yep, buddy - "slave" is the right word. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's time that game went into the more emotional realm
Why? If a formula works, then why change it? It's "time for change" only if the target audience expects it, but before the announcement of SCC's new gameplay direction, no-one seemed to ask for such a change.

Emotion is what make films lighyears ahead in games when it comes to gripping the viewer.
Ah, well, that kinda depends on what type of film it is, no? I mean, would Die Hard be a better action movie is Bruce Willis were to break down in tears over his losses in life every 5 minutes?

[simulacra]

Because games are better if you actually give a frak about the protagonists?

And there are different emotions, not EVERYTHING has to be about "breaking down over loss of life"
Heck, even transformers had a emotional note when you saw the humans and the autobots fighting the decepticon, the aspiring trust/love between megan fox and leboeufs characters, or how about in saving private ryan where some are so scared they cant move and little by little they realise that they HAVE to act.
The actual storylines of those events are easy to write, to have the characters onscreen emote that is alot harder.

And to have that in games will take a new approach to scriptwriting and animation, I'm not saying that scc will feature stuff like that, but atleast they're departing the "I'm sam and I'm a badass spy" which is so stereotypical..

[Georg_Maximus]

So how does keeping light/shadow gameplay equal not giving frak about Sam? How does nu-stealth give the game more "emotion"?

[simulacra]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying the old games featured almost nothing than a military sterotype.

[Georg_Maximus]

Originally posted by simulacra:
I'm not saying that
So you agree that Sam's story could unwrap within traditional gameplay?

[simulacra]

Yes, I just dont think it would be a good idea since the S&L gameplay is getting stale, and with an engine that handles light more realistically the old gameplay would suffer unless ubi wouldn't bother with updating the AI.

As games tend to depict more realistic worlds (does not equal more realistic gameplay) the difficulties of the world they're depicting starts to creep into the game, how well do you think it would be to get through the CIA-level in a splinter cell which simulated reality much more correct?
In some places it would be enough with ONE ambient light in a room to make sam visible.

Just take the room where they're having a briefing for a mission with a projector running, a classic momesnt in splinter cell, impossible with a better engine unless ubi nerf the AI.
I'm sure you can come up with some of your own examples when sam was a little bit too invisible, or when the dark patch was a little bit TOO dark.

[Georg_Maximus]

But it doesn't have to be realistic in that way if the devs doesn't want it to. It's their call to make whatever they want. Next-gen technology *increases* the devs possibilities. You could still be hiding in shadows - that rule didn't have to change even if the graphics got updated and they included silhouette, reflection and cast shadow detection.

[simulacra]

wouldn't that mean that SC would depart from it's somewhat realistic heritage?
Just to keep the gameplay?

IMO no, the new possibilities requires a more advanced approach, there still is a duality in scc which many seem to have overlooked and that I wanna iterate, you can still hide from view, you can still sneak (walk) past when the guard turns his back on you.
You have new tools and and you're not "invisible" per se but the basic premise of SC is still there.

That's why the talk of "hobo sam does nothing than assault cops, this is more a fighting game than splinter cell" annoys me, because I truly believe (and imo the videos affirm this) if you wanna sneak around you can, the thing that seems to be missing is mostly the dark patches and the somewhat blind AI.

[BurningDeath.]

If you are so dead keen on having realism in games, I guess you won't be happy with Conviction either, because it's not a bit more realistic than former Splinter Cells were, just in a different way.

[simulacra]

Who said I wanted spot on simulative realism?
When I feel the need for that I fire up Falcon 4.0 Red viper and fly SEAD or a CAP with realism cranked to max.

I want a somewhat realistic SPY game, and scc is just that, more so than earlier games.

[Georg_Maximus]

That's why the talk of "hobo sam does nothing than assault cops, this is more a fighting game than splinter cell" annoys me, because I truly believe (and imo the videos affirm this) if you wanna sneak around you can, the thing that seems to be missing is mostly the dark patches and the somewhat blind AI.

Well, we'll just have to see what kind of game they eventually realease. Maybe it rocks, I can't say, but for me SC was synonomous with infiltration, mission execution and exfiltration, involving that sense of sinister suspense that only deep shadows, patrolling guards and top secret missions around the globe could invoke. The removal of the light/shadow gameplay and reducing Sam to a fugitive in his own country has just seriously reduced the entire appeal of the game for me. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for SC6, or hoping at least that a worthy successor to the light/shadow-based gameplay will eventually emerge.

[BurningDeath.]

Originally posted by simulacra:
I want a somewhat realistic SPY game, and scc is just that, more so than earlier games.
With Sam drawing guns in crowds, shooting gas tanks and stealing things without getting spotted and fighting several dull cops, one at a time? I don't think so.

[simulacra]

Is there a reason for you to come and bring nothing but blind negativity when we're having an adult conversation?
If you dont wanna shoot the frakking tank, then DONT shoot the frakking tank, seriously, how hard is that to understand?

Jezz, I really dont understand how some of you think, nothing but hate.

Last time I checked, the physics of space and time allowed ppl to steal things laptops, shoot gas tanks and beat up cops, what I want is the sandbox to do things, THEN decide WHAT to do.

[BurningDeath.]

Originally posted by simulacra:
Is there a reason for you to come and bring nothing but blind negativity when we're having an adult conversation?
If you dont wanna shoot the frakking tank, then DONT shoot the frakking tank, seriously, how hard is that to understand.
I'm not being more negative than you being positive. No need to be rude.

[Vth_F_Smith_]

Originally posted by BurningDeath.:
With Sam drawing guns in crowds, shooting gas tanks and stealing things without getting spotted and fighting several dull cops, one at a time? I don't think so. Sam was spotted when he stole the Laptop (which you're probably referring to).

You didn't think the crowd started to slowly follow him because he forgot to take the USB mouse with him, didn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

j/k

[EskimoBob32]

Sam was spotted when he stole the Laptop (which you're probably referring to).
This is an intriguing form of stealth, where getting spotted is integral to staying undetected...

Wouldn't someone follow (or at least watch) Sam rather than everybody calling for a guard come and calm them down?

[MKCC14]

Originally posted by BurningDeath.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by simulacra:
Is there a reason for you to come and bring nothing but blind negativity when we're having an adult conversation?
If you dont wanna shoot the frakking tank, then DONT shoot the frakking tank, seriously, how hard is that to understand.
I'm not being more negative than you being positive. No need to be rude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But still, most of you still dont understand that those things are optional. Just like going rambo in SCCT using the shotgun...why didnt you complain so much about that?

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by MKCC14:
But still, most of you still dont understand that those things are optional. Just like going rambo in SCCT using the shotgun...why didnt you complain so much about that?
Personally, I can't help but be disappointed that they're spending so much time, effort, and memory on things I will never do.
The stuff added in SCCT was pretty minor by comparison, and I actually did use the shotgun/sniper attachments...in Seoul. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tmgbhot]

the shotgun made things easier in CT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

[Jackie Fiest]

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BurningDeath.:
With Sam drawing guns in crowds, shooting gas tanks and stealing things without getting spotted and fighting several dull cops, one at a time? I don't think so. Sam was spotted when he stole the Laptop (which you're probably referring to).

You didn't think the crowd started to slowly follow him because he forgot to take the USB mouse with him, didn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

j/k </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm...like we need a reason to follow Sam. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Oh what? Sam is going into a heavily guarded military compound in Iran?

Ok. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

It's good to see more info on this game coming out! Hopefully I will have more to post besides book news soon!

[NitroExtreme]

Originally posted by S7N:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NitroExtreme:
I never said anything about him having his gear in conviction. Omg did you even read my post. .

erm, i think you find you did, right where you said "finds a room, changes into his cat suit and boom" in your first post

so yes, i CAN read, it seems that you just forget what you write </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO. I'm sorry I hate flaming back and forth like this but dude you really can't read, or just can't understand a paragraph.

You left the words "imagine this" out in front of the quote. That was an example from the first splinter cell book which I was giving out as an idea for a splinter cell game and how I think the way conviction should be made... NOT how it is.

"For those of you who have read the books you'll know what I mean. Imagine this: Sam starts off as a civilian, sneaks into the building or target area using the crowd mechainc, finds a room, changes into his cat suit and boom back to classic splnter game play... that would be the ultimate SC game."

Now trying to get back on topic what would you guys think if they did combine the crowd mechanic and the light and shadow mechanic.

[simulacra]

And how would they do that? have unnaturally dark spots at strategic locations?
Would be cool if you could social engineer yourself to a power box and cut the power to an entire building, don a pair of NVG (model less important, doesn't necessarily have to be his three lens model) and take it from there.
Who knows what ubi plans tho, something like this might already be in the game.

[EskimoBob32]

That would be cool, but it sounds more like something you'd do in traditional SC, not Conviction. Remember the Bank in CT? Did anybody else turn out the motion sensor lights outside?

[BurningDeath.]

Originally posted by simulacra:
And how would they do that?
Look here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5271091065/m/9321009565) for my approach to a solution of this problem. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by simulacra:
Who knows what ubi plans tho, something like this might already be in the game.
Not in SCC, they already stated that you won't get to hide in shadows this time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[simulacra]

No, they said that the main mechanics isn't hiding in shadows anymore, just because there are no more dark spots doesn't mean that there will be a 1000W floodlight shining on you wherever you go.

[BurningDeath.]

Originally posted by simulacra:
No, they said that the main mechanics isn't hiding in shadows anymore, just because there are no more dark spots doesn't mean that there will be a 1000W floodlight shining on you wherever you go.
Look here (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/789/789307p1.html):

"In the fifth installment of a series that defined itself by the light and dark stealth dynamic, shadows will offer no protection."

Just what I said. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[simulacra]

No, it says that shadow will offer no protection not that they wont exist or that completely dark levels will be possible.
total darkness are not "shadows".

But no, I dont think that stuff like that is in the game either, but it would be fun to have a larger freedom as to how you complete the missions.

[BurningDeath.]

Look, I just proved you, saying this, wrong:

Originally posted by simulacra:
Who knows what ubi plans tho, something like this might already be in the game.
...because nothing "like this" (hiding in shadows) can be in the game, if the shadows do not offer protection. Of course they will have shadows in there, but just for our viewing pleasure.

[ZeiramSigINT]

Well take another Light/Shadow game Thief for example. They made System Shock 2 using its engine, the Dark Engine. The people hyping the game were saying that the monsters were gonna see you in the dark but still, the light/shadow mechanic was still there even though its not revealed as a feature anywhere in the manual. It would be too complicated to cut out such an important mechanic in the game if its already there. Right now Ubi says shadows will offer "no protection" but who knows? Keep sticking to the shadows and it might work.

[EskimoBob32]

They say they redesigned the engine from scratch, it was not based on any previous SC game. If they wanted to include light/shadow, they would have to add it in. "New" engines don't automatically come with features present in old engines.

[ZeiramSigINT]

With sequels, if the entire game mechanics are made from scratch it would be extremely difficult, almost like creating a new franchise It would be almost impossible to make a decent game by Christmas. It's a requirement to keep some previous parts of the original games in.

[marinius]

Originally posted by ZeiramSigINT:
With sequels, if the entire game mechanics are made from scratch it would be extremely difficult, almost like creating a new franchise It would be almost impossible to make a decent game by Christmas. It's a requirement to keep some previous parts of the original games in.

How so? This game has been in development since CT, I think they've had time to start from scratch and by the looks of it, that's what they've done.

[ox Se7eN xo]

Originally posted by NitroExtreme:
LMFAO. I'm sorry I hate flaming back and forth like this but dude you really can't read, or just can't understand a paragraph.

You left the words "imagine this" out in front of the quote. That was an example from the first splinter cell book which I was giving out as an idea for a splinter cell game and how I think the way conviction should be made... NOT how it is.

sigh...i too also hate this flaming back and forth (not that we're really flaming each other) but you're misunderstanding what i said.

"NOT how it is."

i KNOW that the game wont have him changing into his cat suit and goggles

my point was that he's a fugitive and wont have access to his gear, so when you said IMAGINE THIS i took it for you to mean that you would like it in the game and i was just clarifying

that is all

[EskimoBob32]

Originally posted by ZeiramSigINT:
With sequels, if the entire game mechanics are made from scratch it would be extremely difficult, almost like creating a new franchise It would be almost impossible to make a decent game by Christmas. It's a requirement to keep some previous parts of the original games in.
I have definitely read/heard somewhere that they redesigned the engine from scratch for Conviction.

[soron]

Originally posted by NitroExtreme:
First off let me point out I'm one of the hardcore Splinter Cell fans. Heck the reason I bought my original Xbox was for Splinter Cell. Now I've always played SC for the single player and more recently the co-op. So now that you know where I'm coming from let me begin my rant.

I love the idea of new crowd mechanic. But I don't like how ubi is using it. Instead of using the mechanic as the core it should have been used as an ADDITION to the series. For those of you who have read the books you'll know what I mean. Imagine this: Sam starts off as a civilian, sneaks into the building or target area using the crowd mechainc, finds a room, changes into his cat suit and boom back to classic splnter game play. Basicly instead of starting off at your insertion point you would have to get there on your own. That would be the ultimate SC game. O well maybe SC 6. Wait never mind Shaghai will be making that one next year.. so maybe SC 7. lol

Although I still have faith in Ubi Montreal, heck they did an amazing job with Chaos Theory and DA xbox.
So what do you guys think? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif