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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:15 PM
What other bomber squadron accomplished anything close to what these guys did?

Between May 1943 and June 1945 450 Tuskegee Airmen were awarded more than 850 medals.

The 332 Fighter Group never lost a single bomber to enemy action.

Yo!





***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:15 PM
What other bomber squadron accomplished anything close to what these guys did?

Between May 1943 and June 1945 450 Tuskegee Airmen were awarded more than 850 medals.

The 332 Fighter Group never lost a single bomber to enemy action.

Yo!





***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:20 PM
my honest respect for these black pilots.

http://www.biermoesl-blosn.de/fahne.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:26 PM
On behalf of the Tuskegee Airmen I would like to say thank you for the compliment. Although I do think that there were so many factors on both sides contributing to the Allied victory it is impossible to narrow down any one singular event as the ONE thing that won the war be it men, machinery, or tactics. Theirs was an awesome record when you think about it. Add to that the enemies on the home front and it truly becomes a remarkable feat. They were also the only group to sink a destroyer without bombs or rockets...just 50 cal fire.... some may say it was a lucky shot..I say a sunken ship is a sunken ship.....

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Message Edited on 06/14/0302:29PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:36 PM
Those B-17's always smiled when they saw the red tails!

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:37 PM
Benjamin O. Davis was a class act. One of the best of the best. No amount of respect measures up to what should be paid that man and the men who flew under him. These guys were champions.

And I meant to say "bomber escort squadron", not bomber squadron. But then I'm lame.

***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:38 PM
I've seen the Movie and read some stuff about these guys. My honest impression is that they were so good, because they had to be. I might be wrong, but I got the impression that they had to be better qualified and achieve a higher standard in selection and training than other pilots at that time, due to the reluctance in some parts of the Air Force to accept coloured pilots in a combat role.

This in no way takes away anything from their bravery and skill as pilots.


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Message Edited on 06/14/0307:39PM by Soapy_112th

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:44 PM
Understood Soapy...but in many cases it is still that way.....it is no where near as bad as it was even 50 years ago but in many subtle ways old ideas persist. Now I have to PROVE that I have my job because I can do it well....not because of "affirmative action". Its a thin line we walk here but I have no doubt this nation will rise to the occasion. Even if, to some people current situations appear to point in other directions.

The Tuskeegee Airmen probably had more training than any other group because the powers that be were reluctant to send them out so they kept hanging them up with training over and over again in some cases..thats another reason why they were so good. They had a lot of practice../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 07:49 PM
I never thought the color of your skin,had anything to do with being a good pilot. History is full of stupid people.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 08:08 PM
Hey Bearcat, I just noticed your Sig, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

And Buzz, yes, what you say is so true. And I like peaches as well btw /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 08:12 PM
I agree with you Buzz... Unfortunately this is true.... but it is funny to me..I believe that if people were left to their own devices and there was no competition for jobs, resources and such....we would all get along just fine. It seems to be when you get the competition and quality of life is at stake that things get most crazy.

I found out that most of the Tuskegee combat records were destroyed shortly after the war along with the gun cam footage depriving us of some great history.



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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 08:42 PM
S! to these fine men that had to fight two wars on both fronts, foreign and national.

Bearcat, did you catch to see my last movie release "Forgotten Battles, Forgotten Heroes"?




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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 08:48 PM
~S! to the fine men and all they stood for and the causes they had in their hearts. It is sad to think of a time when peolpe were thought and unfortunately sometimes still are because of what they look like or who they pray to.
~S!
Eagle
Co 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 09:18 PM
NTESLA wrote:
- S! to these fine men that had to fight two wars on
- both fronts, foreign and national.
-
- Bearcat, did you catch to see my last movie release
- "Forgotten Battles, Forgotten Heroes"?

No I didnt....where can I get it..I might have missed it in my 190 cockpit spamming frenzy.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 09:18 PM
Not to take them any credit, but I researched the "Destroyer sunk with .50 cal" chase once. Mainly because I knew the Kriegsmarine didnt have any real destroyers in the Adriatic. But I was suprised to confirm the attack:
The ship they attacked was TA 19, an old WW1 destroyer (designated "Torpedo Boat" in german service) captured from the Italians. It recieved heavy damage (pierced boilers, mostly, causing the steam cloud which made it look like it blew up), but could be towed back to Trieste. However it was never repaired, and was scuttled when the NZ troops took Trieste.
So while they maybe didnt blow it up at once, they definitely put a warship out of commission.

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Message Edited on 06/14/0308:20PM by theRealAntEater

The_Blue_Devil
06-14-2003, 09:23 PM
Actually it blew up in the guncam footage M8..it may not have sunk on that footage...but you can clearly see an explosion on the deck and on the sides. <center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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Message Edited on 06/14/03 04:28PM by The_Blue_Devil

Message Edited on 06/14/0304:31PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 09:26 PM
I didnt see that film, but from what I read (german report), the damage was so extensive it wasnt worth the effort to repair it.

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
06-14-2003, 09:30 PM
Propaganda man..I saw the ship go boom...Do you really think the Minister of propaganda wanted to have it known that a German destroyer was destroyed by a Fighter without a bomb? Especially by a Black man? Nein, Nein, Nein.

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<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 09:34 PM
Well, I know which kind of ships the Kriegsmarine had in the Adriatic, which were lost when and to what cause.
The date, place and circumstances match exactly, which isnt very common, especially for US units.
Many "white" US units made wild overclaims and shot down/sank things that never existed.
According to the minister of propaganda, the Kriegsmarine would not have to use italian WW1 destroyers at all.
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Message Edited on 06/14/0308:35PM by theRealAntEater

The_Blue_Devil
06-14-2003, 09:54 PM
This is true..however I will have to see if I can find that footage somewhere, if not for that guncam footage they might have said that a small fishing boat had been destroyed instead of a "WWI Torpedo Boat." In all of the reports I have ever seen it was said to be a German Destroyer.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 10:28 PM
Bearcat,

Let me see if someone can host it so you can download it. The movie file was bout 60 Mb a good tribute to all the American airmen for Memorial Day.

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XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 10:41 PM
Considering the treatment some of them came home to, I wonder if _they_ thought they'd won the war.

Since it looks as if the P-51 will eventually be available in FB, and I'm sure there will be redtail skins made (if not already), has anyone created some appropriate face bitmaps, so that players can suitably recognize the accomplishments of these outstanding officers and gentlemen?

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 10:55 PM
Mulla_Stondaa wrote:
- Considering the treatment some of them came home to,
- I wonder if _they_ thought they'd won the war.
-
- Since it looks as if the P-51 will eventually be
- available in FB, and I'm sure there will be redtail
- skins made (if not already), has anyone created some
- appropriate face bitmaps, so that players can
- suitably recognize the accomplishments of these
- outstanding officers and gentlemen?
-
-

Nice to meet you. Please come to my site for the FB Tuskegee experience. There is a movie on the site called Red Tailed Angels, I think you'll like it. Enjoy.


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Message Edited on 06/14/0306:37PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-14-2003, 11:14 PM
Blue Devil is that that vessel on that gun camera footage? That's TA 19 and it was definitively rated as a Torp Boat

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Message Edited on 06/14/0311:17PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 12:31 AM
The redtails did an excellent job and i respect them so much. But they really didnt see many fighters during thier escort missions at the end of the war like earlier pilots did when the german airforce was alot more powerful. Still hats off for them, its not the color of the skin but it just shows you how such harsh and cruel training makes a man more determined and so much better at what he does.


BTW i was wondering i've red books that speak of the red tails shooting down the first me262s, and i read other books who say chuck yeagar was the first to shoot down the 262 does anyone know the truth with dates and evidence?

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 12:38 AM
Does anyone have Nick Beales "Air War over Italy 1944-45"?
I think he analyzed the air combats there and compared claims. So it should cover the 332nds Combats.
I once leafed it through during a book fair, but couldnt get it anywhere.

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 01:04 AM
The__Dude wrote:
- What other bomber squadron accomplished anything
- close to what these guys did?
-
- Between May 1943 and June 1945 450 Tuskegee Airmen
- were awarded more than 850 medals.
-
- The 332 Fighter Group never lost a single bomber to
- enemy action.
-
- Yo!

Bomber squadron?????????

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:17 AM
I see the point you are getting at but the subject title is flawed big time. Their achievments were quite incredible and indeed unequalled. The Tuskegee did not however win the war.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:31 AM
BenKonovalov wrote:
- The Tuskegee did not however win the war.

Er emm, really? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 06/14/0306:37PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:31 AM
BenKonovalov wrote:
- I see the point you are getting at but the subject
- title is flawed big time. Their achievments were
- quite incredible and indeed unequalled. The Tuskegee
- did not however win the war.
-

See that...there goes some un used sarcasm slipping out the door.

Bearcat, I don't know what you do for a living but I suspect you aren't in the military?

You sound like somebody who would have been stellar in the service. Things have come a long way in the USAF today and so many AF generations have passed by since 1947 (The birth of the USAF) that most career people usually judge people by their merit and not their skin color. As a matter of fact we like to say that we are all one color: Blue.

I never understood that sort of buas especiallly with a group like the Tuskegee Airman. I've alwasy had much respect and admiration for them. Several "home-made" Red Tail patches adorn the walls of the Operations Center at Eglin AFB.

Cool post g00se...I bet I know what you watched today.

Usually the_dude spends his saturday's in front of a mirror trying different dresses on.

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:36 AM
Bear is indeed a vet


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Message Edited on 06/14/0306:37PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:37 AM
On March 24,1945 Col. Ben Davis was leading the group cover for some B-17s in a 1600 mile round trip attack on Berlin, the longest mission in 15th Air Force history. Three other Mustang groups, the 31st, 52nd, and the 325th also participated with a P-38 unit, the 1st FG. The pilots of the 332nd were briefed to relieve the 1stFG at 1100 hrs over Brux, and carry the bombers to the outskirts of Berlin. At that point the 31st was to take over. Upon arrival however the 31st was late and so the 332nd was instructed to continue to the target. Col. Davis' Mustang developed engine trouble and he was forced to turn back. Captain Armour McDaniel took over.
Over the target the group encountered several Me-262s. Up to this point only two confirmed victories over the 262s had been scored....both of them by the 31st. On that day 1st Lt. Roscoe Brown scored the first Redtail victory over a 262 by weaving and causeing the 262 to overshoot and he wound up the hunted. After a short burst the 262 was going down and the pilot had bailed. Flight officer Charles V. Brantly scored the second 262 kill of the day. The third came at the hands of Lt. Earle R. Lane when he followed a 262 in a dive that started at 20,000ft and ended at 6,000 and the 262 belching black smoke and going down.

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Message Edited on 06/14/0309:49PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:38 AM
BTW I really like the achievement of those guys.

They never lost an ennemy bomber. Being part of such a group would make me incredibly much prouder than achieving personal success such as victory count or something.

Then again I like the proudness of Hartmann (was it him), who never lost a wingman. This is nice to see those guys remember those achievement rather than a score or something.

Nico

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:38 AM
Yep, I saved up that sarcasm all week. There are far too many "won the war statements" however.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:47 AM
BenKonovalov wrote:
- I see the point you are getting at but the subject
- title is flawed big time. Their achievments were
- quite incredible and indeed unequalled. The Tuskegee
- did not however win the war.

In that you are correct...they didnt win the war...but their contribution certainly played a big factor in the allied victory. As I state so often...that awe inspiring conflict is just too big..too complex to say any one macine, man, or group of men won the war...or lost it, however we DO know which side one and which side lost. We DO know which ideology was repudiated for the evil that it was, and we DO know that the right side won.

Helos wrote:
Bearcat, I don't know what you do for a living but I suspect you aren't in the military?

You sound like somebody who would have been stellar in the service. Things have come a long way in the USAF today and so many AF generations have passed by since 1947 (The birth of the USAF) that most career people usually judge people by their merit and not their skin color. As a matter of fact we like to say that we are all one color: Blue.

I never understood that sort of buas especiallly with a group like the Tuskegee Airman. I've alwasy had much respect and admiration for them. Several "home-made" Red Tail patches adorn the walls of the Operations Center at Eglin AFB.


No I was in the Navy.....and sometimes I still regret leaving. I was young and had a very wild rebellious side to me at the time. I still dont understand that kind of thinking when I encounter it. A house divided cant stand thats for sure..

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 02:54 AM
Ha ha ha...navy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Anyway, I'd just like to add my own perspective on race in the US military nowadays. The military was always one of the most progressive organizations race-relations wise in the US, and I'm glad that I can say I see that trend continuing.

Namely, in my experience, race doesn't matter. At all. To anyone. Not in promotions, not in personal interactions...I have never once seen it come up. I have never had to deal with an issue of racism, nor have any of my peers or immediate supervisors.

I think that men like the ones who comprised the Tuskegee group and others like them, in all services, paved the way for the excellent environment we enjoy today. It is an aspect of the military I am personally very proud of, and one that I will always uphold to the best of my ability.




---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 03:00 AM
cowace2 wrote:
Ha ha ha...navy.

Hey!!!! I worked on A-7s!!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



I think that men like the ones who comprised the
- Tuskegee group and others like them, in all
- services, paved the way for the excellent
- environment we enjoy today.

Yes they did pave the way in more ways than one. Imagine if the great "experiment" had failed? They knew they had the future of thier children and thus thier nation on the line I think that is one reason why they were so driven. Ben Davis in his autobiography "Benjamin O. Davis Jr. American"
He said that they all knew the stakes and failure was just not an option.

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 03:17 AM
And todays Jackazz Award goes to
http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/post-2-1055642333.jpg

BuzzU wrote:
- I never thought the color of your skin,had anything
- to do with being a good pilot. History is full of
- stupid people.

Gee Buzz i'm sure those brave men would like to thank you for your confidence in their abilities. They where better because they HAD to be. Why did they have to be better? Because they were not white. and the stupid people in the world at the time had it in their heads that if you were anything other than that you were LESS. So because of the color of there skin they HAD to be better to prove the rest of the world was wrong. so yes in their case the color of there skin had a lot to do with them being good pilots. living where i live and growing up in Montgomery has taught me a lot more about this sort of thing than most people.
Maybe i shouldn't be offended, but i am. why? because i have spent most of my life around ignorant ppl that have made me want to put a sack over my head and hide in shame for the things other white ppl have done and said over the years. and your lack of understanding is almost as bad. I am forever greatfull those men HAD to be better. because if they hadn't i might be a german now, in stead on an American. Enjoy your award, you earnd it.

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 03:29 AM
I think you and Buzz are on the same page Copperhead.... I think he is saying that those who applied skin color to piloting skills were stuipid.......

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 03:33 AM
No Barry i don't think we are on the same page. in fact i would say he's on a page i would't want to be on.
I'll explain latter.

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Bearcat99 said: "I sure hope a lot of us have to eat fun and suck enjoyment when this patch comes out because the way some are acting is hilarious.."


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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 03:48 AM
Does anyone here have my latest movie "Forgotten Heroes" to host it so Bearcat can see it????


I need to get my own host service ASAP!


Thanks.




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"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 04:07 AM
Here's why they were able to do what they did (Regardless of whether they faced many fighters or few). O'Davis's philosophy was simple and it was as follows:

1) Fail the mission, don't come back

2) LEAVE the bomber formation to get a "kill" you will be immediately GROUNDED and will face COURTS MARTIAL action.

3) NEVER, NEVER, leave the bombers.

So as you can there was plenty of motivation to save the bombers (not to mention the motivation of proving that your race is just as capable as any other to be able to fly combat aircraft).

Note that because of reason #2, there was only ONE Tuskegee "Ace" pilot, his name is Lee Archer.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Panther

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 04:10 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- No Barry i don't think we are on the same page. in
- fact i would say he's on a page i would't want to be
- on.
- I'll explain latter.



*!

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The_Blue_Devil
06-15-2003, 09:23 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- Blue Devil is that that vessel on that gun camera
- footage? That's TA 19 and it was definitively rated
- as a Torp Boat
-

Rgrt looks about right..the footage is awesome man. No luck finding it but I am looking.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 10:57 PM
Do you have the link to it or uploaded somewhere?

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura

The_Blue_Devil
06-16-2003, 12:48 AM
KIMURA wrote:
- Do you have the link to it or uploaded somewhere?
-

Not yet but as soon as I find it I will post it with the proper permissions


<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 02:39 AM
thx for all the great info guys, on the airman.. at the end of that movie (ta) they did indeed mention of the downing of the 1st jet fighter by the redtails..

MandMs
02-20-2004, 08:25 PM
This was just posted at the SimHQ forum in a thread about a VVS all woman fighter unit.

"The 586th held the distinction of never losing to Luftwaffe fire a bomber in the formations they escorted or a ground installation which they defended."

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/soviet_women_pilots.html



I eat the red ones last.

Chuck_Older
02-20-2004, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The__Dude:
What other bomber squadron accomplished anything close to what these guys did?

Between May 1943 and June 1945 450 Tuskegee Airmen were awarded more than 850 medals.

The 332 Fighter Group never lost a single bomber to enemy action.

Yo!





***I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. That, or Duder. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now don't let me take anything away from the Tuskegee airmen. But the 332 didn't fly bombers that I can recall, unless it was fighter-bombers. You should edit this part:

"What other bomber squadron accomplished anything close to what these guys did?"

A man's skin color doesn't interest me much. One reason I like Ali so much is that he's about the only African-American that makes the general population go color blind. He's respected and admired, and his skin isn't even mentioned. In a way, I think that makes him one of the most important Americans alive.

*****************************
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Tully__
02-20-2004, 09:38 PM
You do realise this thread is 9 months old? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Chuck_Older
02-20-2004, 09:40 PM
......no..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

Franzen
02-20-2004, 10:19 PM
For the Tuskegee Airmen I think their greatest battle was on the homefront. After that they were ready for anything else.

Fritz

Bearcat99
02-21-2004, 07:16 AM
Whoooaa who drug this up...LOL.. I wish I could get my old sig back.... Some of those ladies were pretty good looking....

BTW...the first downing of a Me 262 was not the Tuskegee Airmen.. i think it was the 31st... but The TA were like either the second or third...and they got 2 in one day.

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p1ngu666
02-21-2004, 07:33 AM
u could do that with a gif ?
mind im ze craptatular at gifs so dont expect me todo it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Copperhead310th
02-21-2004, 11:41 AM
Yeah uhhhh really who dug this up?

By the way Bear...this does bring a question to mind. Not all of the TA were in the 332nd FG. Weren't some asighnd to fly Bombers? I.E. wasnt there a Tuskeegee Bomb group as well?

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Chuck_Older
02-21-2004, 11:42 AM
Good Question!

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash