Sylvan - too weak ?

[SpellBld]

[SpellBld]

[dhrddm]

I think you didn't play h5 at all... You forget (or maibe you don't even now)about the avenger skill. it's a killer! That + luck skill make thesylvan town one of the best. Try HOLD GROUND + WILDFIRE + DEAD LUCK. What do you get? ABSOLUTE LUCK
every shot is a lucky (+125%) shot .
I think you don't know what you are talking about...

[SpellBld]

oO... think about sylvan units without heroes. We are comparing "monsters"(units) not heroes. U can say sylvan is the best because ranger have avenger skill and high luck but I can say dungeon is better than sylvan cause warlocks have more powerfull spells, or haven is the best cause haven heroes have high morale ... compare only units , not heroes .

Thx

[cqr-]

Well, if u want then compare only units :
First Gold dragon is more powerful then Black. (The wich one is better question is more complex)
Once i did a comparison with 20-20 and the Gold won ( 8:2 from 10 matches). U forget to count initiativity.
Secondly the whole statement sylvan units are weak(er) is wrong (imo)for example sprites,druids(especially in early game) are very good too.

[Salventus]

It's very hard to tell if Sylvan is too weak and when it comes to creature vs creature comparison, it's not conclusive either. Off course the avenger skill gives alot of boost to damage of your creatures vs to enemy creatures but it's not universal to all enemy creatures, you have to pick which ones. But I think the sprite is only 2nd best first level unit to the assassin and can make a good hit and run faction in the begining of the game. They also have access to the "desguise & recon" ability which will make enemy Heroes think twice before attacking not knowing the true number of your forces. Also, most of the unit's initiative & speed is very high if you were to compare with other enemy units except for the dungeon town which is pretty high too. But, the Sylvan has a couple of Heroes that have the ability to increase it's initiative 2% for every level of the Hero for all his units. There also very fast on the adventure map and at sea. So they have alot of avantages that other factions don't have.

[phoenix_reb1973]

Sylvan is the best town for small maps , their low lvl units are deadly when the PvP battles begin at 1-3 week . On large and extralarge map elves are quite less powerful cause the relatively weakness of treants and unicorns , but if the game would continious very long the absolute luck can turn the result to elven purpose , it's lust my impression from beta .

[Omega_Destroyer]

Treants and Unicorns aren't that great for offense, but they serve as great shields for Grand Elves, Great Druids, and Sprites. I think the Blade Jugglers are a bit weak, but that is mostly due to them being a level 2 creature. The Gold Dragons have great initiative which compliments the other forces quite nicely. High attack and damage mean nothing if you attack less frequently than your enemies.

[ST_Ghost]

They are not too weak.

Elves and druids are overpowered while unicorns and war dancers are underpowered.

ok maybe only unicorns...wardancers are only good for the attack, very weak defensively

[Zeldor.]

I also thought that sylvan is weak, but I would now rather say that they are too strong. Last time I defeated with Sylvan somewhat bigger Inferno army, with average losses, when creatures and heroes stats would suggest that sylvan has no chance... and I had no inferno creatures in avenging.

[Fael569]

Well Avenger kinda sucks, cause it is overpowered when it works, but is useless in most of the times...

However: the creatureline-up is pretty decent. Sprites rock. Wardancers; only play them in numbers pref against non-ranged (or play them with the their boss, what's his name Gilraen? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif ). Druids are good (in the beta at least). Uni's, well I don't like them but every faction has something like them, just a pity they are level 5. Treants aren't that bad, just give them someplace to teleport tohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. And the Dragons are in my opinion the best Level 7 choice around.

[Shauku83]

I voted not weak, based on beta experiences. They are a fast town. They have the cheapest buildings, that means you get creatures easier. Their creatures have clearly the highest initiative. Fast, fast, fast. War Unicorns are not at all bad. Trants are not so usefull, but their purpose is clearly protection of your ranged creatures. Green Dragons are awesome, and you get them easily...

Your 1st 3rd and 4th creatures are among the BEST creatures of their level.

[Boromir2006]

Voted not weak. Simply, you forgot about initiative. Actually, Gold Dragon is stronger than Black, because it attacks 1.5 times more frequently. Treants are indeed not very powerful, but for example Druids and Sprites are great.

Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Shauku83]

Well i had to test thr Treant a bit and the Take Roots ability is incredible... I do not know exactly how it works, but it takes place when you press Defend. 8 Archangels did around 168 damage before it and after Take Roots they did 35. When there was 1 Archangel left it did constantly 4 damage....

So I take back my words about Treant, they are incredibly good. They are just not ment to do damage.

[Zeldor.]

Everyone saying that treants are weak probably never tried to pass through them.

[cqr-]

Shauku, its strange for me how could 8 Archangels do only around 168 demage against treants. The Archangels Attack is more then the treants def with 2, so it should have been 8*45*1.1=396 demage intsead of that 168.
To get such low demage ur treant must have had about 54 def points or so, and after taking roots to get only 35 demage from Archangels it means about 67 def points.

I did a test too with (10) Gold dragons against treants :
Before taking roots : 313-541 demage
After : 173-299 demage
( I get +17 def points by defending the treants,
and this test is still not fair coz the hero with the ents have an artefact(+2def points).

[Shauku83]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cqr-:
Shauku, its strange for me how could 8 Archangels do only around 168 demage against treants. The Archangels Attack is more then the treants def with 2, so it should have been 8*45*1.1=396 demage intsead of that 168.
To get such low demage ur treant must have had about 54 def points or so, and after taking roots to get only 35 demage from Archangels it means about 67 def points.

I did a test too with (10) Gold dragons against treants :
Before taking roots : 313-541 demage
After : 173-299 demage
( I get +17 def points by defending the treants,
and this test is still not fair coz the hero with the ents have an artefact(+2def points). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That post was with a very high level hero, but it was just to state how impossibly low the damage went after the Take Roots, from 168 to 35 drop is incomprehensible!

Good taht you have tested it with normal numbers. Did you have Treants or Treant Guardians in your test?

[cqr-]

Of course Treant Guardian http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I guessed a high level hero with about 25 def points or so coz that 168 demage instead of 396.
The reasons (why the demage decreased so drammatically in ur test) are simple now:
If ur treant has 29 def p then it get 396 demage, after roots its 225
So Archangels do 56% of the demage before roots.
If ur treant has 54 def p then it get 168 demage, after roots its 35
In this case Archangels do only 21% of the demage they did before the roots.
So if ur creatures def points are higher with 20 then the opponents creatures attack points then:
ur attacker do 50% of its base demage (instead of 100demage it does 50)
But u dont need 40 points to halve that 50d to 25d, u need only 30 attack points more then the enemys def. To halve that 25 u need only 35 more points, then to halve again only 37.5 and so on...

[Shauku83]

So in your normal case damage drops nearly 50% against a level 7 creature, so the drop can be assumed to be much bigger against lower level creatures. So overall the Treant is not useless http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif which was my point (lol, I know I did it the wrong way though)

now offtopic:
the pattern you used
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 8*45*1.1=396 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that correct? I have heard from testers that it doesn't work like in H3.

[SpellBld]

OK now I see :F thx for Ur answers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[trucane]

I think they are too strong. They got some really powerful units and sadly enough the gold dragon beats the black dragon.