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mike_espo
09-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Wow...I had an interesting offline experience today... In QMB, 3x veterans Zero 21s vs 4x Average P-400s. I came out second best!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

True, I have been away for three years, but I did not think my skills deteriorated that much.

I always read that the P-39 was woefully inferior to the Zero. However, the P-39 AI boomed and zoomed where I was unable to get within .5km!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I thought the Zero was faster and could climb better...

After this experience, I downloaded IL2 Compare and found out that the Airacobra is faster on the deck,I didn't know that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Online, I can do better, but I must say, that I was quite perturbed by this experience. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It seems the AI has improved in Boom and Zoom tactics since AEP

VW-IceFire
09-07-2007, 10:46 PM
If they had given the P-39 a real engine it could have been a 400 mph fighter. For the time it was extremely aerodynamically clean and pretty fast in its own right.

DKoor
09-08-2007, 03:46 AM
mike you should be able to deal with cobras fairly easy, because of better maneuverability and better RoC especially on slow speed.

Ais are tougher to shot down nowadays because you simply can't really catch up with them easily.

woofiedog
09-08-2007, 03:51 AM
Quote... "If they had given the P-39 a real engine it could have been a 400 mph fighter."

It might have been just the fighter we needed to fight with in the early air battles against the Japanese bomber units pounding our bases in the Pacific and in Asia. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

From the article The Heart of the Cobra (http://rwebs.net/dispatch/output.asp?ArticleID=19).

Development of the Allison V-1710 Engine.

The Allison V-1710 was America's only liquid-cooled engine to see wide use in the Second World War, powering tens of thousands of P-38, P-39, P-40, P-63 and other fighters. Although it proved to be a great engine, the Army's lack of interest and funding to develop better mechanical superchargers in the 1930s kept the engine from being developed to its full potential. The Allison was in many ways stronger and more rugged than the British Merlin, capable of withstanding operating speeds of 200-400 rpm higher than the Rolls-Royce design. One can only wonder what would have happened if Allison had adopted the Merlin's two-stage supercharger to the V-1710.

However, the first two-stage Allison to incorporate an aftercooler was the V-1710-119 (-F32R) which powered North American's XP-51J to a speed of 471 mph at 27,400 feet in the spring of 1945.

mike_espo
09-08-2007, 03:00 PM
Having read Sakai's Book: Samurai as I am sure you guys have, that the Zero should have no trouble with a p-39.

I found the Zero to be slow, to have very poor acceleration and a high energy loss in a zoom climb. None of these were characteristics of the Zero

I hope its just my rusty flying skills and not a flaw in the Flight model of the Zero 21.

DKoor
09-08-2007, 03:28 PM
It's not the plane flaw it's the Ai flaw.
Any kind of even battle P-400 vs A6M ends up in Zeros favor.

joeap
09-08-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
It's not the plane flaw it's the Ai flaw.


+1

lowfighter
09-08-2007, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
It seems the AI has improved in Boom and Zoom tactics since AEP

Yes, and that's a nice improvement. During old times you could fool a FW190 to turnfight with your il2. He'd turn till he was a sitting duck. Not anymore.
Coming back to the zero, I think at the beginning of the war the japanese zeros were succesful partly because the americans did try to turn too much with the zeros. Then americans realised the mistake and change tactics...

JG53Frankyboy
09-09-2007, 06:52 AM
some thoughts about the performance of Zero 21, Wildcat and Airacobra

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/zeroperformance/zero_performance.htm

a bif proplem of the Airacobra in 1942 over NewGuinea and Guadalcanal was that the japanese Betties and thier Zero escort flew their attacks to high for the Airacobras engines.........

mike_espo
09-09-2007, 07:37 PM
Yep. gotta work on my flying technique. Not as easy as AEP http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

leitmotiv
09-14-2007, 03:25 PM
Actually, a cleverly flown P-400 ought to give a Model 21 a run for its money. The P-39s Sakai met over New Guinea in the spring/summer of 1942 were flown by pilots who had no training in fighters, and who had been hastily thrown together to form a Fighter Group. The key for the P-39 series vs. the Model 21 is to make one pass and dive away. In a close-action battle, keep the throttle to the firewall, don't make tight turns, or steep climbs. And, never get into it with Model 21s over 9,000 feet.

Over Port Moresby in 1942, the Allies tried to use radar and observers to get the jump on the Japanese by placing fighters higher than the attackers. Even without superchargers P-39s and P-40s could still be used as ambush fighters. When they made one pass, and dove away, they were in good shape. It is the same story as any fighter battle, the key was altitude and surprise.

R_Target
09-14-2007, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
a big proplem of the Airacobra in 1942 over NewGuinea and Guadalcanal was that the japanese Betties and thier Zero escort flew their attacks to high for the Airacobras engines.........

Indeed. Over 20,000 ft, way too high for P-400/39. I read somewhere that the Airacobra squadrons were called the "Port Moresby Fishing Fleet" because they had to go out to sea in order to get enough altitude, then turn back for the interception. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

triad773
09-15-2007, 12:32 AM
Well I did some tactics from some of this thread and I'd say it turned out pretty well.

Used UQMB, New Guinea map, P-39D 1941 vs. Mitsubishi Zero type 21. Both sides took off. Meeting somewhere around the middle of the island, I in the P-39 dove from Angels 20; target somewhere around 2500 ft (love those coast watchers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). I got some pretty bad buffeting on the way down, but the ship held together well- certainly better than a P-51. I think I topped out at 450mph.

The Zero seemed to not even see me coming; unusual for AI, but the nose cannon on the P-39 can be pretty persuasive. Initial approach at 60 degrees; course correction to 30 degrees intercept (gradually); squeezed the trigger from a moment before he cross my cross hairs until he passed through.

The result:
http://triad773.com/augustshots/2007/P-39vsZERO-21-1.jpg

In a diving attack, the guy never had a chance (granted, first pass http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)
http://triad773.com/augustshots/2007/P-39vsZERO-21-2.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
09-15-2007, 03:40 AM
in NEwGuinea 1942 VOW2 (a gone COOP based online war) missions the Airacobras had realy proplems in the fight when the Betties and Zeros came to target above 6000m.
in fights at lower heights it sure was another story !

SeaFireLIV
09-15-2007, 05:00 AM
Wha?! this is the same thread as in GD! he just changed the title and went here instead!

Guess mike espo didn`t like the last thread responses.

I went and tested his scenario with the zeros one against the P39 (with the human on the zero side) and the zeros won no loss.

He totally ignored all that and came here instead. I find that kind of reaction really funny. But at least he admitted here he`s probably wrong. The pride of some, eh?

Don`t worry, I won`t say any more here incase you run off somewhere else! Just next time I`ll remember not to make any effort on your behalf. I`ll leave you be.

hayabusa_1971
09-18-2007, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Wha?! this is the same thread as in GD! he just changed the title and went here instead!

Guess mike espo didn`t like the last thread responses.

I went and tested his scenario with the zeros one against the P39 (with the human on the zero side) and the zeros won no loss.

He totally ignored all that and came here instead. I find that kind of reaction really funny. But at least he admitted here he`s probably wrong. The pride of some, eh?

Don`t worry, I won`t say any more here incase you run off somewhere else! Just next time I`ll remember not to make any effort on your behalf. I`ll leave you be.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifwhat is your problem?....people are here to get information.....I have been looking at these threads for awhile and most people are helpful....you are not.

I finally decided to post to this forum, but if everyone is as rude as you....

You seem to have a problem? You have over 6000 posts...perhaps you spend too much time on the computer... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FritzGryphon
09-18-2007, 10:32 PM
Don't compare AI planes to human flown. AI planes are dumb, and cheat on performance.

Hoatee
09-23-2007, 03:12 AM
As if humans are any less dumb or more honest performers.

jayo1
09-23-2007, 07:13 AM
cant say about the zero coz i aint flown it yet,but rather than a new thread i'l say that the p400 craps all over my Hayabusa,they just point their nose to the sky and they're gone!!

VW-IceFire
09-23-2007, 08:10 AM
A6M2-21 and Ki-43-I seem to have a better climb rate according to IL2 Compare but the P-400 is faster overall. Doesn't tell you the whole story either. What the P-400 can leverage its weight and aerodynamics so its zoom climb is probably significantly better.

mortoma
09-25-2007, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
Wow...I had an interesting offline experience today... In QMB, 3x veterans Zero 21s vs 4x Average P-400s. I came out second best!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

True, I have been away for three years, but I did not think my skills deteriorated that much.

I always read that the P-39 was woefully inferior to the Zero. However, the P-39 AI boomed and zoomed where I was unable to get within .5km!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I thought the Zero was faster and could climb better...

After this experience, I downloaded IL2 Compare and found out that the Airacobra is faster on the deck,I didn't know that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Online, I can do better, but I must say, that I was quite perturbed by this experience. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It seems the AI has improved in Boom and Zoom tactics since AEP In game all types of P-39/400 are much faster than the Zero at just about any altitude. You can walk away from the Zero AI if the going gets tuff, especially in the P-39D2. The D1 and the 400 are essentially the same plane, only difference being the P-400 does not have a drop tank or bomb option. The eastern front P-39s are also faster than Zero is. Against AI Zero, if you wish to leave them behind, simply fly away in a slight turn and eventually you will leave them behind. AI can't shoot deflection even when your turn is slight,
so you can extend by doing that.

VW-IceFire
09-25-2007, 07:10 PM
P-400's throttle also can't go over 100% while the P-39D-1 can. So the D-1 has better performance at the extreme...is otherwise the same under 100%.

The D-2 is a monster...far faster than any other P-39 series aircraft. Not sure why.

mortoma
09-25-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
P-400's throttle also can't go over 100% while the P-39D-1 can. So the D-1 has better performance at the extreme...is otherwise the same under 100%.

The D-2 is a monster...far faster than any other P-39 series aircraft. Not sure why. You is wrong, be sure!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I am in the game now as I write this because I go on the internet with my laptop and game with my desktop. I am in QMB flying the D1 right now and it's throttle cannot go beyond 100% either. I had the P-400 in just before the D1. They both can attain about 440Kph at 1000 meters on the QMB island map. HB's aircraft viewer does indeed show them to be the same plane except for loadout. As does IL-2 Compare.

VW-IceFire
09-25-2007, 09:40 PM
Woa...just checked that myself. I wonder when that happened?!

What does HB's aircraft viewer say about armament? Both by default have 1x20mm Hispano, 2x.50cal, and then diverge for the .303 cal and .30 cal (P-400/P-39D-1).

JG53Frankyboy
09-26-2007, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Woa...just checked that myself. I wonder when that happened?!

.....................

from game version 3.0 on................

in game there is no difference if its a .303 or .30 - they are internaly the same.

mortoma
09-26-2007, 07:52 PM
To change the subject a little, I just realized that IL2 Ccompare leaves out the D2 completely!!
I wonder why what's his name missed that? He has a P-39D listed, which I assume is the D1, since it's performance is exactly the same as P-400. There is no other D model listed, only those two and eastern front versions.

mike_espo
09-26-2007, 09:44 PM
Thanks for the replies... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Did'nt mean to offend some of you..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif I remember a few years back where it was Ok to critisize the FMs.....

Anyway, I remember AEP and how the zero 21 was awesome..now I can't get a kill with it in '46! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Flight model of A6M series seems very different in '46.

Online it seems OK, but not the way it was in AEP. Now, the Zero is slow, has no zoom climb ability at all and the roll rate is incredibly low. It seems like I am flying in slow motion compared to the 39s. I was on a Moresby server in a Zero 21 yesterday, alone when I atttacked 2 P-400s, I held my own for about 5 minutes before I was flamed... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Offline, AI seems never to turn at all and Zero against the P-39 series, it is very, very difficult to beat...even with veterans flying the zeros. I ran the simulation many times and mostly, the veterans zeros are shot down by Average pilots in the 39s. This never happened in AEP

F19_Orheim
09-27-2007, 02:45 AM
I'd pick the p400 anyday.

JG53Frankyboy
09-27-2007, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
To change the subject a little, I just realized that IL2 Ccompare leaves out the D2 completely!!
I wonder why what's his name missed that? He has a P-39D listed, which I assume is the D1, since it's performance is exactly the same as P-400. There is no other D model listed, only those two and eastern front versions.

in my il2compare 4.07

there is a P-400 and a P-39D


the P-400 is giving the charts of the P-400 and P-39D-1 (which are identical)- therefore you see bombs in the P-400 section as the P-400 in game has none !
the P-39D is giving the charts for the P-39D-2 , wich are much more superiour.

R_Target
09-27-2007, 10:01 PM
D-1 has 1150 HP, D-2 has 1325 HP and 1590 WEP HP.

VW-IceFire
09-27-2007, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
Thanks for the replies... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Did'nt mean to offend some of you..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif I remember a few years back where it was Ok to critisize the FMs.....

Anyway, I remember AEP and how the zero 21 was awesome..now I can't get a kill with it in '46! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Flight model of A6M series seems very different in '46.

Online it seems OK, but not the way it was in AEP. Now, the Zero is slow, has no zoom climb ability at all and the roll rate is incredibly low. It seems like I am flying in slow motion compared to the 39s. I was on a Moresby server in a Zero 21 yesterday, alone when I atttacked 2 P-400s, I held my own for about 5 minutes before I was flamed... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Offline, AI seems never to turn at all and Zero against the P-39 series, it is very, very difficult to beat...even with veterans flying the zeros. I ran the simulation many times and mostly, the veterans zeros are shot down by Average pilots in the 39s. This never happened in AEP
Basically this is all largely for the better. The AI doesn't engage in hopeless turn fights and tends to focus on BNZ when flying appropriate planes. The changes to the Zero I believe are the result of improved data and modeling that came in during Pacific Fighters and later on that were more accurate. I think the Zero is, at present, a bit too slow (10-20kph I think) but most of the other details seem to be mostly accurate (within reason).

The weaknesses of the Zero are exposed even by the lowest P-39 model as tactics are required to beat the Zero in a plane like the P-39. The other key element in the historical matchup between these planes is that air combat tended to take place relatively high over the Owen Stanley Mountains where much of the P-39's early encounters with the Zero occurred. Try fighting the P-39s at 5000 meters and 7000 meters and see how the Zero works against them there...

Not sure how the AI will react...probably dive for cover http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mortoma
09-28-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
Thanks for the replies... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Did'nt mean to offend some of you..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif I remember a few years back where it was Ok to critisize the FMs.....

Anyway, I remember AEP and how the zero 21 was awesome..now I can't get a kill with it in '46! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Flight model of A6M series seems very different in '46.

Online it seems OK, but not the way it was in AEP. Now, the Zero is slow, has no zoom climb ability at all and the roll rate is incredibly low. It seems like I am flying in slow motion compared to the 39s. I was on a Moresby server in a Zero 21 yesterday, alone when I atttacked 2 P-400s, I held my own for about 5 minutes before I was flamed... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Offline, AI seems never to turn at all and Zero against the P-39 series, it is very, very difficult to beat...even with veterans flying the zeros. I ran the simulation many times and mostly, the veterans zeros are shot down by Average pilots in the 39s. This never happened in AEP I've tried similar scenarios and I can always beat the P-39s, because I take advantage of the Zeros climbing ability. You can separate from the P-39s by climbing, then dive down on them when they try to climb after you in a sprial climb. It does not take many hits to cripple the fragile P-39. It smokes easily if hit in the engine. Then after about three minutes, it's engine will be squealing and it can no longer go fast. Then kill it/them.

BadA1m
09-29-2007, 06:36 AM
I think one of the things you are noticing is the big difference between the 4xx and the 3xx flight model. The Zero was way easier to fly well and had better performance and I believe that the later versions of IL2 have helped the faster, heavier planes quite a bit. That said, a well flown p-39 or p-40 is every bit the equal of the zero (This coming from a Zero pilot). It's been said here a million times, "it's the pilot, not the plane" and while I think the totality of the equation is much more subtle, it is still largely true.

You have to fly your aircraft to it's strengths and against your opponents weaknesses. and with the Zero, that requires your opponent to screw up or for to get a lucky shot as he blazes byhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

BadA1m
09-29-2007, 06:40 AM
BTW, Triad, your first screenie is now on my desktop. Marvelous. (do I owe you any royalties?) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

mike_espo
09-29-2007, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by BadA1m:
I think one of the things you are noticing is the big difference between the 4xx and the 3xx flight model. The Zero was way easier to fly well and had better performance and I believe that the later versions of IL2 have helped the faster, heavier planes quite a bit. That said, a well flown p-39 or p-40 is every bit the equal of the zero (This coming from a Zero pilot). It's been said here a million times, "it's the pilot, not the plane" and while I think the totality of the equation is much more subtle, it is still largely true.

You have to fly your aircraft to it's strengths and against your opponents weaknesses. and with the Zero, that requires your opponent to screw up or for to get a lucky shot as he blazes byhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Totally agree. I have noticed quite a difference between AEP which I played in 04 and '46. The Zero had definately suffered as a result. Although yesterday, I did kill a LA-7 online with a Zero 22. B&Z aircraft are now at a disadvantage as they should be.

P-39s however, I cannot touch, unless as you say, he screws up and gets in a knifefight. Which was somewhat true later war, but my only problem is: The p-39 was not by any means a plane which allied pilots in the PTO wanted, in fact, it was hated. It seems in '46 that it retains energy too much and zooms a little too good....

Here in '46 unless piloted by a novice, is unbeatable with a Zero.

VW-IceFire
09-29-2007, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by mike_espo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BadA1m:
I think one of the things you are noticing is the big difference between the 4xx and the 3xx flight model. The Zero was way easier to fly well and had better performance and I believe that the later versions of IL2 have helped the faster, heavier planes quite a bit. That said, a well flown p-39 or p-40 is every bit the equal of the zero (This coming from a Zero pilot). It's been said here a million times, "it's the pilot, not the plane" and while I think the totality of the equation is much more subtle, it is still largely true.

You have to fly your aircraft to it's strengths and against your opponents weaknesses. and with the Zero, that requires your opponent to screw up or for to get a lucky shot as he blazes byhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Totally agree. I have noticed quite a difference between AEP which I played in 04 and '46. The Zero had definately suffered as a result. Although yesterday, I did kill a LA-7 online with a Zero 22. B&Z aircraft are now at a disadvantage as they should be.

P-39s however, I cannot touch, unless as you say, he screws up and gets in a knifefight. Which was somewhat true later war, but my only problem is: The p-39 was not by any means a plane which allied pilots in the PTO wanted, in fact, it was hated. It seems in '46 that it retains energy too much and zooms a little too good....

Here in '46 unless piloted by a novice, is unbeatable with a Zero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The P-39 has excellent aerodynamics (I think its #2 with the Mustang in first for low drag) and has a fair bit of weight. So its not too surprising that its going to hold energy fairly well in straight lines. Turning apparently is good because of the center of gravity which gives it the nasty spin but also a good turn when not falling into a spin.

P-39s weren't universally hated...just in the PTO where they were forced to fly over the Owen Stanley mountains and intercept Betty's at higher altitude. The Zero holds all the cards in a fight like that except for dive. Basically anywhere they needed the P-39 to fly high altitude it was unsuited to the task.

You can see why they really wanted the P-38 in this situation with its superior climb and superb high altitude performance.

mortoma
09-29-2007, 05:02 PM
I also think the P-39 in America service was too heavy to have a good power to weight ratio. The Russians improved on this and lightened the load. They also used it in a low altitude tactical role, which is where it shined. We American's never tried to use it in it's best operating envelope and over-loaded it with too much weight.

F19_Orheim
09-29-2007, 07:04 PM
Yeager's favourite ride

mike_espo
09-30-2007, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Yeager's favourite ride

Really?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif I would have thought it would be the P-51...I read his biography and he scored 5 kills in one day with the Mustang...

woofiedog
09-30-2007, 11:07 AM
Bud Anderson's first Old Crow was a P-39.

http://aaron.smith.free.fr/PilotsPlanes/Anderson_P39OldCrow.JPG

The symbol on the side of the cabin is for the 363rd FS.

http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/patch01b.jpg

VW-IceFire
09-30-2007, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
I also think the P-39 in America service was too heavy to have a good power to weight ratio. The Russians improved on this and lightened the load. They also used it in a low altitude tactical role, which is where it shined. We American's never tried to use it in it's best operating envelope and over-loaded it with too much weight.
They did get more performance out of them by having later versions too. With slightly better engines and minor refinements like 4 blade propellers. Removing the wing machine guns also increases the roll and does reduce the weight somewhat so you're right. Either way the Russians got what they really wanted out of the P-39 when everyone else was shunning it. Probably it was all summed up to be a overall weight reduction...so you're probably right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've read the P-39s made great IL-2 escorts apparently.