Su27 radar question [Archive]

Fish44

12-24-2003, 01:40 PM

Hi all,
Have just viewed the Su27 radar trk. However noted that the painted target was continuously illuminated, and did not give any indication of which scan bar it was on. In Flanker this was very useful to determine if painted target is above or below the tracking aircraft.

Is there any other means of determining the relative altitudes of single or multiple painted targets?

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Fish44

12-24-2003, 01:40 PM

EAGLE_34_WO

12-24-2003, 01:47 PM

I know in the F-15 in BVR mode next to the square on the hud are the alt and speed of the painted target. I'm sure there is something similiar in the SU27. If i find it i will get back to you asap. Merry Christmas!!!

cruelsword

12-24-2003, 02:00 PM

Yes, right upper number shows you target alt, left number target speed.

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Fish44

12-24-2003, 03:15 PM

Yes thats fine in track mode, but what about scan mode, and what about an encounter with multiple bandits. Implementation in Flanker allowed you identify if the bandits were braking low or high, by which scan bar they were painted on. Also allowed you to 'bug' multiple bandits, and arrow indicated if the closure rate was negative or positive, for all the bugged targets.

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pappavis

12-24-2003, 05:30 PM

same question here.. the BVR radar in on the HUD in lo-mac has somehow changed, its not the same as Flanker2.51 anymore.

Another mystery is in flanker the radar contacts were blinking blips. using the TAB key it one could move the little square over a target to get it track, or press on 2 for the radar to track the targets in the scancone. Then, in Flanker2.51 they would change to squares either point up or down (as mentioned in an earlier post).
How can one determine if a target is approaching or going away from you, coz this trackingthing as in Flanker is gone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

met vriendelijke groet,
Michiel Erasmus/Pappavis [REBEL]

Fish44

12-24-2003, 06:16 PM

Please, please include this back into future patch. I love the russian aircraft, but they will not be very effective in BVR without these avionics.

Think the radar modes for mig29 and su27/33 have been oversimplfied.

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Wind_Master

12-24-2003, 06:23 PM

Actually it is there (the elevation indication). It's just a lot more subtle than in Flanker. Try changing the radar elevation very slightly, that seems to help sometimes.
I don't know which is more realistic but I enjoy the added challenge.

Wind_Master

12-24-2003, 06:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Another mystery is in flanker the radar contacts were blinking blips. using the TAB key it one could move the little square over a target to get it track, or press on 2 for the radar to track the targets in the scancone. Then, in Flanker2.51 they would change to squares either point up or down (as mentioned in an earlier post).
How can one determine if a target is approaching or going away from you, coz this trackingthing as in Flanker is gone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

met vriendelijke groet,
Michiel Erasmus/Pappavis [REBEL]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As soon as a target(s) shows on the HUD, it shows on the MFD. You can see the heading of all the targets visible on HUD on the MFD. Of course when you lock a target you can only see the locked target on the MFD (and HUD).

Fish44

12-24-2003, 06:52 PM

Dont think that is the question in point. You still can't see, unless u lock each target in turn, any info about closure rate, or relative altutude. And there's no 'track while scan' mode for these aircraft.

Locking and painting targets are completely different situations, both for human pilots and should be for AI. The TWS info allows the pilot gather info about a threat situation, without 'alerting' the threat/s unnecessarily. In a high threat environment, there may be several objects 'painting' an aircraft, but the pilot is likely to take severe measures to break a 'lock'.

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Wind_Master

12-24-2003, 11:45 PM

As I said, you do get relative altitude data without a lock, just as you did in Flanker 2.x. It's just not quite as obvious, which very well may be more realistic (based on nothing I know for sure). You also get the angle off for all tracked aircraft (via the HUD). Closure rate? Well, how fast is the blip moving down your HUD/across the MFD? No absolute quantity but a pretty decent relative one (like altitude).

No, I don't think we're getting a perfect representation of any of the aircrafts' radar but just how perfect can it be? But, I do like LOMAC's version better than Flanker 2.x's. Do we have any experts who are able/willing to tell us exactly what we should be seeing on the HUD/MFD in "BVR" mode (if there even actually is such a thing).

Fish44

12-25-2003, 02:23 AM

No issues with radar if its 'realistic'

Havent spend enough time with the sim yet. So havent seen the altitude data as you described. Could you please explain briefly how it works.

And Happy christmas, if you celebrate it where you are!

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Fish44

12-25-2003, 02:27 AM

I suppose you could slew radar vertically, until contacts disappear/reappear in the HUD. Order in which they persist, gives indication of which ones are lower/higher?

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Fish44

12-25-2003, 08:41 AM

bump

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Octav

12-25-2003, 12:58 PM

Actually the radar behaves like this in real life.
There is no direct indication to the elevation of the target relative to the fighter.
And the only way to figure it out is either to ask the ground controller or to play with the radar elevation.
And in real life, the only way to prevent a target from evading you by performing a vertical maneuver is to engage SNP (TWS) mode, and to select (either manually or automatically) the primary contact - that one will be traked by the radar's scan cone.
Octav

Fish44

12-26-2003, 07:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Octav:
Actually the radar behaves like this in real .
Octav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry I cant agree.

Neither do I don't see any way to activate 'TWS' mode in an su27. I just get Scan all or Track one target. No, this is not realistic for that plane (read below). Although I don't know if the Flanker implementation is accurate, I would conjecture, that given the sophistication of the SU27 radar, some information on the relative elevation (not necessarily altitude)of tracked targets is made available to the pilots, and probably in a graphical format.

I've added an extract from Andrei Formin's book on flanker, which I don't fully understand, but it does suggest that the deflection of the scanning beam is done be by both mechanical and electronic means, making it very efficient.

"It (the RLPK27 radar for flanker) could operate as a slotted radar laterally and as a phased array radar in the vertical plane. During the horizontal mechanical scanning, it helped to direct the beam quicklyat targets detected earlier through its vertical electronic steering. This permitted the antennaa to revert regularly to the previously located targets, ie. 2-3 tomes more often than with mechanical scanning. Thiswas the best way of substantially enhancing the accuracy of predicting the position of a target, in the 'track while scan' mode, and, in turn allowed multiple targets (or at least two of them) to be engaged at once by means of a continuopus/discrete illumination. This was (at the time) an impossible job fot the (APG-63 of the) F-15 equiped with all mechanical scanning radars, and semi-active homing missiles. "

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SteelcityVMF257

12-26-2003, 08:10 AM

You can always glance at the threat warning system to see if the target painting you is above or below you. Rather crude but you adapt and use what you can.

Now...if I"m in BVR mode and have my radar up and I'm looking at approaching bogeys. If they are heading towards me I will lock them up at range regardless of anything else that happens. I try to choose a specific bogey. If they are in a tight group which generally occurs I can guess that the rest of the aircraft are at the same altitude and airspeed as the target I've locked up.

I'm strictly talking in LOMAC and not RL. There are others much more knowledgeable about the Su27's radar than me.

Octav

12-26-2003, 09:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fish44:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Octav:
Actually the radar behaves like this in real .
Octav<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry I cant agree.

Neither do I don't see any way to activate 'TWS' mode in an su27. I just get Scan all or Track one target. No, this is not realistic for that plane (read below). Although I don't know if the Flanker implementation is accurate, I would conjecture, that given the sophistication of the SU27 radar, some information on the relative elevation (not necessarily altitude)of tracked targets is made available to the pilots, and probably in a graphical format.

I've added an extract from Andrei Formin's book on flanker, which I don't fully understand, but it does suggest that the deflection of the scanning beam is done be by both mechanical and electronic means, making it very efficient.

"It (the RLPK27 radar for flanker) could operate as a slotted radar laterally and as a phased array radar in the vertical plane. During the horizontal mechanical scanning, it helped to direct the beam quicklyat targets detected earlier through its vertical electronic steering. This permitted the antennaa to revert regularly to the previously located targets, ie. 2-3 tomes more often than with mechanical scanning. Thiswas the best way of substantially enhancing the accuracy of predicting the position of a target, in the 'track while scan' mode, and, in turn allowed multiple targets (or at least two of them) to be engaged at once by means of a continuopus/discrete illumination. This was (at the time) an impossible job fot the (APG-63 of the) F-15 equiped with all mechanical scanning radars, and semi-active homing missiles. "

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is some way to activate the SNP mode - see the key list or ask someone else - I'm still waiting to get my copy, but in an old thread (from the demo's time) someone told me there will be a key to engage SNP mode. If it isn't, I hope they'll address it in a patch.

And there is NO way to tell the target's elevation, by looking at it's symbol, in both the N-001 and the N-019 radars (as they are 90% common, except some parts in the transmitter and receiver units).

Regarding Andrei Formin's book, all I can tell you for sure is that the N-001 has a mechanically scanned twist cassegrain parabolic antenna, doing a 4 bar scan - no sloted or phased arrays. So I won't trust any info presented there.

Octav

Fish44

12-26-2003, 09:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SteelcityVMF257:
You can always glance at the threat warning system to see if the target painting you is above or below you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if you're on Intercept, and you want to get in close and personal undetected.....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Now...if I"m in BVR mode and have my radar up and I'm looking at approaching bogeys. If they are heading towards me I will lock them up at range regardless of anything else that happens. I try to choose a specific bogey. If they are in a tight group which generally occurs I can guess that the rest of the aircraft are at the same altitude and airspeed as the target I've locked up..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If there are good AI tactics employed, or if the pilots are a group of 'virtual pilots' then they are not likely to stay together for very long in a BVR conflict like this.

Still don't think the soolution is satisfactory. But I do accept that you've gotta work with what you've got. (Until it gets changed!)

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Fish44

12-26-2003, 04:47 PM

[/QUOTE]
Both the N-001 and the N-019 radars (as they are 90% common, except some parts in the transmitter and receiver units).

Regarding Andrei Formin's book, all I can tell you for sure is that the N-001 has a mechanically scanned twist cassegrain parabolic antenna, doing a 4 bar scan - no sloted or phased arrays. So I won't trust any info presented there.
[/QUOTE]

Octav,
First, hope that you get your lomac soon.

Everything I see on the net about N001 (Zhuk27) radar indicates a look down/ shoot down, with the capability to track up to 10 and prioritise and engage 2/4 targets simultaneously. Accept your point about Phase Array radar, as it seems only to be available as upgrade options with later variants of the radar.

Will let you know if I can work out how to get TWS mode if it exists.

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Fish44

12-29-2003, 01:46 PM

Reference Manual says
"BVR -Scan Acquire up to 24 targets"
"BVR -TWS Tracking up to 8 contacts, scanning up to 16 more"

"SCAN Submode
Pressing 2 selects the BVR Scan mode....."You can also establish the contact's elevation by the correlating image return and scan beam 'illuminator' on the rhs of the HUD."

Text also says
"BVR mode has two submodes, SCAN and ATTACK"
The attack mode definitely only displays details of one target, and also lets the target know in no uncertain terms that you have 'lockeed him'.

Could anyone here clarify what is the situation regarding both elevation symbology and TWS mode for the SU27.

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SSRamachandran

12-29-2003, 01:55 PM

Fish ...I agree with you 8000 %. It was so cool in F2.5 . The Scan , the TWS and then the ATK. In LOMAC , the radar sucks. But regarding your question about the maual. They just shipped off the F2.5 manual with some minor additions. so some info on the Maunal is just wrong

ghman

12-29-2003, 02:33 PM

The radar model in LOMAC is not complete. This issues will be addressed in future patches, according to the Dev's I belive. See links below:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=17610606&m=84810728

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=17610606&m=36010038

Fish44

12-29-2003, 03:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SSRamachandran:
Fish ...I agree with you 8000 %. It was so cool in F2.5 . The Scan , the TWS and then the ATK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad i'm not alone. Game for me is super so far, but give me back what was already great in flanker and I'll be overjoyed.

Sim plays for me smooth (most of time) at 1024.768, It looks great.

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Fish44

01-09-2004, 02:47 AM

Ive not been able to play the patch, since my vid card has gone belly up.

Patch documentation states.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Radar on Russian fighters now works correctly when EOS is turned off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can anyone say, does this address the issue discussed here ie, TWS and RWS modes, and altitude scan bars.?

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JJ_alfa

01-09-2004, 11:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fish44:

Everything I see on the net about N001 (Zhuk27) radar.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...and thats where it runs off track for you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The N001 "Miech" radar(developed by NIIP) is, as Octav said, all but identical to the N019 - same twist cassegrain antenna design, same emitter output(1Kw average - 5Kw peak), same Ts100 main processor, same operating modes and similar functionality:

- can display up to 10 contacts simultaneously, calculate prioritised target, track and engage it with SARH missiles(R-27R/R-27RE).

The only real differnce between the N019 and N001 is that the latter has a longer acquisition range due to a larger antenna diameter(app. 1m vs. 700mm of the N019) - but even that is not nearly as significant as people think.

N019 can detect a "fighter-sized-target"(RCS=5m2) at up to 80km in "Encounter" mode(search), track and engage it at up to 60km in "SNP" mode(equivalent to TWS).

The corresponding figures for the N001 are 100km and 70-80km respectively.

The "Zhuk-27" is a totally different and much more advanced radar. In the late eighties Phazatron-NIIR developed the N010 "Zhuk" radar for the MIG-29M and MIG-29K - this radar has a planar slotted array antenna of 680mm in dia, which can be scanned to +/-85 deg in azimuth and at much faster rate than the N001/N019. It has the same acquisition range as the N019 and can display as similar number of detected contatcts(10), but can simultaneously track 4 and engage 2 of them(has two targeting channels). It furthermore has a number of air-to-ground modes - including a terrain mapping/avoidance mode - and can support active radar guided antiship missiles.

With the "Zhuk-27", Phazatron-NIIR simply took a N010 "Zhuk" radar and fitted a larger 960mm antenna(compared to 680mm of the "Zhuk") and offered it for the SU-27(and derrivatives) - as the name says, a "zhuk" radar for the SU-27. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,
JJ -

Fish44

01-09-2004, 07:11 PM

Thank you jj_alfa, and to Octav for your informed explaination of these radars.

So when i read articles on web..

'can track up to 10, and engage prioritised targets'

it should read

'can track up to 10 and engage one prioritised target;

And so the N001 (or N019)is how su27 in lomac in modelled.
Track many, then focus and 'lock on one. And no altitude data?
Is this a fair assessment of EB's approach?

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