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Technomage2525
09-08-2005, 11:12 PM
Okay, since there has been much debate on the idea of heroes fighting in combat, I will throw my idea for having heroes fight into the fry, who knows ubi might use it!

My thought process was this, having heroes fight in battle would be great but hard to balance as shown by heroes 4, the main problem was unlike other units you couldn't get stacks and stacks of units like 200 black dragons with heroes, so how do you balance that you will only have 1 unit in your hero stack at all times but still not make it so that one unit is so uber it kills everything? Well I present to you the avatar system.

I'm going to make 2 assumations for this system: 1. the stats and such for hereos 5 will be very similar to heroes 3 2. there will be 2 types of heroes for each town a spell casting hero and a warrior hero.

So he is how the system works, instead of your hero always being in the battlefield like in heroes 4 what happens is that your hero starts off, off the battlefield but can summon his avatar into combat to fight for him like a special summon unit, this summoning a avatar could mean anything from the hero summoning an actual avatar to fight for him like for a spell casting hero or he hero getting off his horse and joining the battle.

What is an avatar?

The avatar will be a stack that will represent your hero in a fight, right now working off the assumation that a hero will have a offense and defense stat and it adds it to every unit in his army like in heroes 3, to keep the avatar from getting too powerful I would have set stats for the avatar instead of setting the atk and def stat of the avatar to the hero since that would mean the avatars stats would be 2 times the heroes, its stats plus the hero bonus. Instead the avatar's stats will be set depending on the range of levels your hero is, my working numbers are:
lvls atk def damage hp
1-5 10 10 10-20 100
5-10 15 15 15-25 125
10-15 20 20 25-35 150
15-20 25 25 35-45 175
20+ 30 30 45-55 200

So a lvl 15+ hero would have an avatar with atk and def stats clsoe to a lvl 7 unit, dragon, angel etc.. An avatar would have as have a level
with it that would be equal to your hero level and bascily treat in almost all ways like having a stack of that number, so like a lvl 7 avatar would have 7x 125 hp, do 15-25 x 7 damage, every time it got dealt 125 damage it would lose a level, bascily working like a stack of 7 avatar units. This would fix the problem of trying to balance a stack of only 1 unit (a hero) with a stack that could contain many units ( like pikemen), but still keep the favor of it being a hero and different from a normal unit.
It would take an action from your hero to summon your avatar like casting a spell so you won't always have a avatar in the battle only if you want to.


So a avatar is just a summon unit then???

Well, the avatar as some special properties. First it doesn't heal, so if you get into a fight and let's say your lvl 7 avatar gets into a fight a loses 249 damage, your avatar would now be a lvl 6 avatar with 626 hit points and if he takes to more damage would now be a lvl 5 avatar, and would mean this way til you healed him, so unlike normal units if you got into a fight and let's say your angels took 100 damage , and then won the fight your angels would be healed up to full strength next fight unless as 1 didn;t die this would not be the case for avatars. You would have to go to town and pay to get them heal. Also if your avatar dies your army would recieve an negative moral and luck modifier, and you your stats for your hero's stats would be reduce ( let's say by 1/2) til you get your avatar healed at a town. So there is a risk for using your avatar so you don't want to use them every battle, just the important ones. Also the avatars would have special abilites depending on what kind of hero you were ( spellcaster or warrior) and what town you were, haven, inferno, etc... Like a inferno warrior hero's avatar would have like a flame sheild ability or something and a heaven's spell caster would have a heal ability to heal nearby units.

Spellcaster vs warrior avatar
I would think the 2 main classes of heroes would have to different avatars. The spellcaster avatar would be a range unit, but have less hp like 25 less per level than a warrior avatar and add knowledge to his defensive stat and pwoer to his atk stat instead of the hero's atk and def stat since spellcaster heroes usually have low at and def stats than warrior heroes to balance out each heroes avatar. Warror avatar would move faster than spellcaster ones have have more hp.
As antoher balance idea, it might be wise to have a level requirement to summon your avatar to keep ppl from using their avatars to clear early mines of monsters so maybe you have to be level 4+ to summon an avatar, would need to know more detail about heroes 5 to really get this numbers right.

Well some the the ideas are pretty rough but what do you guys think?

Yes i know i got too much time on my hands.

Dregonar
09-08-2005, 11:27 PM
Quite similar to WOG. I wouldn't mind.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-09-2005, 08:09 AM
Personally, I love this idea. But in regards to appeasing the people who want Heroes on the battlefield again....they're going to still look at it like it's just a spell and the actual hero isn't on the battlefield. But like I've said before, I don't think anything short of doing what NWC did with H4 will appease them. *sigh* It's still an excellent idea. I'll make sure that Ubisoft sees this one.

socketboy
09-09-2005, 10:45 AM
Long read, but you can tell a lot of thought was put into it.
I'd be down for that idea probably

Val-Gaav
09-09-2005, 11:29 AM
I do not like this .....

Idea is good however this avatars are to powerfull ... over 600 hp on 6 level ??? I mean it isn't hard to get this 6 level in the early game and with this 600 hp avatar you could easily win with all level 1 and 2 creatures ....

IMO this like this Stronghold comander from WoG... There you reach level 5 and go with balistas and take every mine and resource without any army http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sajentine
09-09-2005, 11:40 AM
I love this idea, and I am a fan of H4. I am a fan of having heroes on the battlefield but am also resonable enough to see that it is a large departure from the game's style and many fans of the series prefer the H3 system instead because there aren't any other games like this. So while I wouldn't think of this as an H4 "upgrade" I think its a great idea to add to the general gameplay.

Aseved
09-09-2005, 02:27 PM
I think the way heroes would work is pretty decided on Heroes V. As for your idea, while it is well-tought it leaves me the impression is just a "toy" to believe hero is in the battlefield (or, even worse, to get H4-type combat, without hero in battlefield), and not really a way to really have a working Hero-on-Battlefield. And, a second thing: how would you deal with those heroes who are not pure magues nor pure spellcasters? - take a -let's say- battle mage type, that increases mainly attack and spellpower, but not so much knoweldge and very few defense.

Note that, for some of us who want Heroes in Battlefield, it is not necessary to have the hero going alone as a single element. I myself like to have the hero in the battlefield due to the "epicity" feeling it gives, however I would not mind to have it guarded by other stacks, because, even if he is not in first-line, he is still there, suffering with his/her troops.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And now, in a shameless act of self-promotion, since you brought the topic of Heroes in Combat, let me link three of the ideas I've been developing in the past years. You will see the three are quite different, and only one is (somewhat) near to H4 hero-in-combat style. However I like them all because in all of them the hero is still down there in the battlefield.

Hero Guard (merging stacks with hero) [post #12, by Dragon Angel] (http://www.forumplanet.com/strategyplanet/homm/topic.asp?fid=5292&tid=1661408&p=1#18839814)
Placing/Merging Hero in one Stack (quite similar to H3, but having hero in) [post #394, by Dragon Angel] (http://www.forumplanet.com/strategyplanet/homm/topic.asp?fid=5292&tid=1236661&p=27)
Multiple K.O (more similar to H4) [post #291, by Dragon Angel] (http://www.forumplanet.com/strategyplanet/homm/topic.asp?fid=5292&tid=1236661&p=20#13508883)

Technomage2525
09-09-2005, 05:18 PM
Well the numbers could be tweak, the idea is if you havn;t figure out around levels 1-10 your avatar should roughly be equal to a lvl 5 unit, 10+ lvl 6 unit and lvl 7 plus it would be a lvl 7 unit. By the time you are level 5 you should have a couple of lvl 5 units i would think so it shouldn't throw the army strenght off too much. Remember your avatars don't heal so if you want to weaken your avatar by creeping the lower level units you could but then if the an opposing hero ambushes you are are then kind of screwed. Also you could personailze the avatars too, so at higher levels they gain more abilities so for example:

haven hero lvl 1-5: gets holy charge ability, longer delay time til next turn but this atk does more damage

lvl 6-10: divine aura, all ally units adjunct to your avatar gets +2 def and + 1 morale

lvl 11-15: holy bolt: the avatar can project a holy bolt at enemy units.

etc... each ability would be unique to each hero class and level up.

For battlemages I do not know, usually a hero either gets high atk and def or high power and knowledge, for a high atk and power hero i dunno maybe basis what you add to your avatar dependent on what kind of hero you are. Yes its not a prefect solution to the heroes on the battlefield thing but it is something they can build upon. Hoopefully they might let me in the playtest to try this been trying to figure out powers for the other heroes.

Inferno warrior hero:
lvl 1-5: lava blaster, hero has a 15% for each strike to explode in a volcanic blast dealing an extra 100 damage and 50 damage to each adjunct unit to the target.

lvl 6-10: flame sheild, permanent on hero

lvl 11-15: firebolt, fires a bolt of hellfire at a emeny unit

lvl 15-20: Demonic pact, adds the avatar to kill anther friendly unit to heal itself.

more to come when actual hero classes are reveal

Sajentine
09-09-2005, 06:34 PM
Having thought about this some more I'm thinking this could be labeled as an "astral projection" ability and could be balanced out as you've described. As your astral projection becomes weakened after losing hit points your hero essential becomes weakened and is unable to maintain the projections current level of strength. This essentialy becomes a double edged sword because now your hero is unable cast spells as long as he is maintaing the projection but the projection is able to participate in combat by either casting spells or attacking and enemy unit directly.

Let me know what you think.

Sajentine

SandroTheMaster
09-12-2005, 12:05 PM
I think it should be a merge with the "hero guard" idea and multiple "K.O." idea. The hero first has its bodyguards (what is interesting and also realistic, Alexander, the Great, had it's own bodyguards, who were his best friends and best warriors, and Alexader was nearly untouchable with them in front), and when the bodyguards are dead meat, then it goes to the hero, and the idea of the hero being weaken as his health goes down, but also gets higher defense is also a awesome idea (again to Alexander, he almost got killed in battlefield a lot of times, but stayed in battlefield and menaged to survive even so, like when he got an arrow to pierce him but his battlefield doctors healed him in tiem, so he could be killed by poison/ fever/ backstab/ whatever after, but most importantly, outside the battlefield, I'm just saying off Alexander because his is the best sample of "Hero" in history)