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View Full Version : Interesting read about PS3 vs 360



Brownsnakeeyes
11-22-2006, 01:35 PM
http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?spage=1

I'm not sure if this has been posted before so humor me a minute.

It's a long read so be warned. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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seductivpancake
11-22-2006, 01:53 PM
I'd be lying if I said i read everything. I read most of it.
I wonder if the writer is a college student, and this was his report, cause it's A++++.
I liked this article. It should be posted everywhere so people can stop the bickering about which is the best console in terms of power and graphics.
One of the main reasons why i didnt buy the ps3 is because it was too expensive, and there wasnt much launch games i was intrested in.
I bought the 360 mainly because of the games being released. (The fragdolls contributed in my choice in purchasing it.) I consider the nice graphics and Live a bonus.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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PacNW_CE
11-22-2006, 02:21 PM
This article's emphasis on the graphical capacities of the 2 consoles reminds me of the old GF3 vs Radeon 8500 battles. It's funny to me that Nvidia is still trying to out horse power the competition, while ATI continutes to come up with more efficient GPU solutions. By and large, the article makes it clear that BOTH the 360 and the PS3 are hella strong consoles.

Overall, the article feels scientifically based and not emotionally based. The author restates repeatedly that he's not trying to say one is better than the other, he's simply reporting the facts. On paper, Blu Ray sure looks like less of an advantage than Sony'd have us believe. I'd be curious which console is more laborious to code for. (that means I want Steve's opinion since he is the smartest code slinger I know)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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stonelance
11-22-2006, 03:51 PM
I haven't programmed at all for 360 or PS3, but I have some experience with Xbox and PS2. If those previous generation consoles are any indication then Xbox is much easier to develop for.

The main strength of Xbox\Xbox 360 development is the fact that it is an MS product, and if its one thing MS definately knows well it is software. MS cares a lot about its 3rd party devs and has technical people dedicated to go and help out teams learn the SDK and solve problems. Also, the toolset available to devs is just amazing. PIX, for example, is a performance\debug tool for Xbox that not only reports CPU stuff, but also can give very detailed information on what the GPU is doing. It is by far the best tool I have ever used. MS also has the benefit of having shared or similar APIs between the consoles and PCs. Any PC game devloper could fairly easily move to Xbox or 360 without too much difficulty. I don't think the same can be said for Playstation.

On the other hand, I believe Sony and Nintendo tend to contract out to 3rd party companies to develop their SDKs. They tend to be less stream lined, confusing and in general just a big pain to work with. In the long run its not as big of an issue because devlopers will learn the tools and the tricky dev issues. The main problem I see is ramp up time. It takes a lot longer to learn these tools than the MS ones so it will hurt the first round of games a lot. I think that is evident by the perf problems I have heard of on launch PS3 games, and possibly also the reports of less than expected graphics quality in Zelda. I also heard availability of PS3 dev kits was very late and the number of devkits was low compared to Xbox ones.

There could be other issues at play as well. For instance, maybe the MS tools and software are easier to understand for English speaking development companies whereas Sony and Nintendo's might be better for the Japanese.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Magiz
11-22-2006, 05:15 PM
The was a great article for the technically savvy. I was able to understand it easily because; it's just want I know and part of what I do, for a living. Though for people that don't understand this stuff as well. I could see this article being very boring and hard to follow.

Though I must say, he did a great job of breaking up the different specs of the systems and their strengths and weaknesses. He doesn't take sides for either console and gives you a decent breakdown of them.

I had remembered an article that Stonelance linked for me back around the time of the 360 launch. To be honest I almost forgot how advanced the GPU was in the 360 was. One thing I didn't know, was that it is in fact an early model DX10 card. It's too bad that they've turned off the one piece of the card, making DX10 graphics possible.

The CPU information he gave was pretty detailed and I must say. I'm very impressed by both systems. Though at the same time. I'm far more impressed with the 360's GPU over the PS3's. I thought it was funny when he mentioned that Microsoft had lied to us, about the power of the 360's GPU. It turns out, it's actually more powerful then they had ever mentioned. Though I'm sure this is because, of future DX10 card development and keeping othe companies in the dark.

All three of these new consoles are great. They all have their own style and possibilities.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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stonelance
11-22-2006, 07:25 PM
THe most interesting thing I took from the article was the fact that the CPUs are in-order execution. I didn't know that before. Its an interesting move and when you are running more specialized and well tested code then it is probably a good option. Compilers are pretty good these days at doing compile time optimizations, but the dynamic scheduler will always be able to schedule some instructions that no compiler could do at compile time. I don't think his argument for performance during high branching code to be as bad as he thinks.

I definately agree with his statement that it will take developers a little while to get used to programming in a multi-threaded environment. It's just the trend that is happening now. Even desktop apps wll have to start doing it eventually. There is only so much a compiler\dynamic scheduler can do to parallelize your code. At some point the coder just has to smarten up and start writing code with the idea of parallelism in mind right from the get go.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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zeeEVIL1
11-23-2006, 05:20 PM
In regards to the DX10 function that exists but is not functional in current 360's would it be possible for M$ to activate this feature when DX10 becomes the widely used norm? Or would it require the purchase of a new system? I ask because my understanding is that Windows Vista will run DX10 The two are going to be compatable with each other so is it possible?

DocHolidazed
11-23-2006, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by zeeEVIL1:
In regards to the DX10 function that exists but is not functional in current 360's would it be possible for M$ to activate this feature when DX10 becomes the widely used norm? Or would it require the purchase of a new system? I ask because my understanding is that Windows Vista will run DX10 The two are going to be compatable with each other so is it possible?

Actually, the 360 runs a modified version of DX9, not DX10. The system is NOT upgradable for this element. It is a hardware issue, so it can't be uprgraded or as you say, activated.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Magiz
11-23-2006, 08:34 PM
Like I was saying in my post (and talked about in that article). The DX10 is part their on their GPU. The only reason it has been turned off, was to keep costs down. It's very possible they also did it on purpose. We'll find out soon enough. There is a lot they have to keep secret about this board.

Even with that part turned off. The 360's video board (GPU), is still far more advanced then the PS3's. It's actually twice as powerful, then they've ever let on. The article also mentions, that in 1080p gameplay. The 360's GPU would probably easily outperform the PS3's because, of it's better designed architecture. Though at 720p, this isn't as apparent (the article explains why).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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DocHolidazed
11-24-2006, 07:00 AM
MSs' savy is pretty imprressive. In contrast to how Sony brags about stuff they can't deliver. MS holds it back till they are ready then drops incredibly usable and practicle elements for the community from the inside out. That cpu they have holds many secrets. I agree now that I've seen MS prove it with the step ladder approach in adding more and more to an already near perfect online service. They have a plan, and they are executing it. AMazing to see a takeover in the market happen so methodically and smoothly. I'm loving MS more and more everytime I turn on my 360.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ninja Kn1ght
11-24-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by DocHolidazed:
MSs' savy is pretty imprressive. AMazing to see a takeover in the market happen so methodically and smoothly.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

360 is great but I haven't seen anyone take over anything yet. Just about every developer agrees that overal PS3 is more powerful than 360, many would say that it's considerably so, but both consoles are very capable.

I noticed in the article that the author mentions Blue Dragon being a 50 hour adventure as some kind of justification for 360 not needing Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, what he didn't mention was that Blue Dragon will come on 3 DVDs. The PS3 has also been well designed for future expansion, the fairly large portion of the system's power which is reserved for the OS will allow them plenty of leeway for some very impressive system functions to run concurrently with games.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brownsnakeeyes
11-24-2006, 10:42 AM
Well if they can offer the same as Live does then I'll traid my 360 in. But since for now you can't even play music during games, dl anything while playing games, and not able to send messages while in a game, plus having to make a gamertag for every single game I'll pass.

But it seems to me that the single gamertag for all games should've been a no brainer for Sony plus not being able to listen to music in-game sucks.

Plus with the joining of live and windows soon I really don't see where Sony will be any better if not worse.

Until I see them start to actually charge for online service which will show me that there serious about it, I'll stick with the 360.

And odviously you didn't understand the link I posted. Sure the PS3 is more powerful but the way it's set up, it will never use it.

Plus with the CPU which basically means that PS3's AI will not be as good as the 360.

Well most if not all the people at this site say that gameplay is the most important, I don't see anything more important than AI in games.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ninja Kn1ght
11-24-2006, 12:45 PM
You only have one name for every game on PS3. Charging for something doesn't make it better and as for cpu power being essential for improving AI and thus improving gameplay? well, I agree to an extent but where does that leave the Wii?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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mcmax3000
11-24-2006, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Ninja_Kn1ght:
Charging for something doesn't make it better

You're right it doesn't...

But I'd rather pay $50 for quality then get **** for free.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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zeeEVIL1
11-25-2006, 07:38 AM
To bad about the DX10 thing. Thanks for the answer.
M$ is definetly doing a good job with the way they are adding thier new features. The ladder approach is a very old business model. You see it in almost every consumer market and product. Back in 1981 the video phone was all the rage, people were talking about how it would be in every home within a couple of years and all that. Well as it turns out people weren't ready to have other people see them on a video screen in '81 so it quietly disappeared. Look at todays cell phones as another example. PHONE,TV, RADIO, CAMERA, INTERNET, PICTURE and VIDEO MESSAGING. Every quarter unveils some new feature that has actually been sitting on the backburner or been availible only to certain government agencys for years now. If they gave you everything at once, the companies feel they would no longer be able to make money from you.
The PS3 is definatly a powerful system. But from my understanding, 1080p resolution really only matters when you have a TV in the range of 50"+ That resolution is not embedded enough into households to mean squat yet. One feature that M$ just released that i could see SONY crushing them on is the DL movies and Music video's I say this because from a personal stand point i feel it would be more enticing to be able to download a current release movie for 3-4 hours from home instead of going out to the movies to see it. This will happen eventually mind you, but SONY does own 1/2 of all the movies ever made. That being the case they could bypass licensing requirements that M$ would have to secure and test the waters of this with thier own inventory. Once they prove its viability, they would have an easier time signing the other studio's up for the feature. Then the PS3 would indeed be one HUGE step closer to being the center of home entertainment.

Brimtown
11-26-2006, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Ninja_Kn1ght:
You only have one name for every game on PS3.

What are you talking about? Every single thing I've read says the exact opposite. Sony does not have a centralized online service like MS does. They've left it up to each individual developer to implement online service the way they see fit. While it might be possible to create the same gamer ID for each game, it doesn't seem like it would be a guarantee.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brownsnakeeyes
11-27-2006, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Brimtown:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ninja_Kn1ght:
You only have one name for every game on PS3.

What are you talking about? Every single thing I've read says the exact opposite. Sony does not have a centralized online service like MS does. They've left it up to each individual developer to implement online service the way they see fit. While it might be possible to create the same gamer ID for each game, it doesn't seem like it would be a guarantee. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the last time I checked you did in deed have to make a name for every online game. But I could be wrong so I'll check the PS3 forums and report back with proof.
Edie: Ok I think I was wrong about having to make your name all over again( not sure still because I haven't recieved an answer yet but take a look:
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/messa...ate_ascending&page=1 (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=psnetwork&thread.id=2566&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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