Realistic ACOG sights

[AntiPersonnel]

lets have realistic ACOGs for the next R6.

an ACOG is not a sniper scope, it is a reflex sight, and should be used as one.


there is nothing realistic about this "tunnel vision" view looking through an acog.

http://screenshot.xfire.com/screenshot/large/f0b3d7003ff447fc1b788e184d2ac1e442cd73ae.jpg


it should look more like this (2x magnification for example):

http://i40.tinypic.com/141qlg0.jpg



for comparison, here is the unscoped view:

http://i40.tinypic.com/mrxqft.jpg



basically, the way acogs are designed, you are supposed to have full peripheral view with only the center of the scope seamlessly magnified with the background.

same goes for ANY of the reflex sights by the way. i have never seen any of them modeled realistically in any game.

[T2sick]

First the RSV2 team confirmed there werent gonna be a sequel. but if they change their mind i think it would be a great idea!

[AntiPersonnel]

they said no more in Vegas.

im not talking about Vegas 3. im talking about the next Rainbow.

[DeimosWilliams]

Yes, I agree the "tunnel vision" ACOG is ridiculous.

I understand they're trying to make aiming easier for gamers but, I doubt it's humanly impossible to hold a ACOG scope that close to your face and shoot accurately in a combat situation.

I like your idea as far as having the scope transparent due to depth perception and focusing your eyes on objects in the distance.

Maybe users should have an option to either use one eye or two depending on if they want to have their scope transparent or not.

It's obviously an advantage to have it transparent because you can see more of the screen but, it would give people a chance to warm up to the concept.

[AntiPersonnel]

i think the reason why everyone makes it with tunneling effect is so that you can run and move around quickly while scoped.

if it were modeled realistically it might actually make you a bit dizzy because in actuality with a magnified scope, the center magnified image would move "faster" than the surrounding background.

in all games that have an ACOG, the entire screen will zoom the amount of magnification (usually 4x), rather than only what is inside the scope. that way the speed of the the image moving in the scope matches the speed of the passing background image.


its another unnecessary BS artificial "game balancing" technique devs use.

in real life the ACOG is already balanced by nature. on the one hand you have a disorienting effect with the magnified image moving faster than the background, but on the other hand, the housing should be transparent and you have full peripheral awareness.

its an equal trade off of pro and con that doesnt need to be tweaked for video game "balancing" sake.

[Pieman13]

i still don't know what ACOG stands for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

[AntiPersonnel]

Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight



by the way, i made a short video clip of how the acog would work in the game.

ACOG in action (http://www.methamphibian.com/temp/Untitled-1.html)

note how ONLY what is visible in the scope is actually magnified, as it should be.

in every video game that has an ACOG, they always magnify even the background outside the scope which is not only extremely unrealistic, but also totally destroys your peripheral view.

[DeimosWilliams]

Nice, headshot on the soccer mom.

I was thinking about your idea and I like it.

But, this is what I would consider.

How about, when your moving the scope becomes transparent but, when you hold your position (such as the pics below) the scope becomes more prominent since it's held directly in your line of sight opposed to when your mobile.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1384/565474321_a001e92af9.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/113/306423701_9ee7cab08d.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/2288726997_e4ce82f6cd.jpg

[AntiPersonnel]

actually it works the opposite.

the scope is only transparent when it is held in aiming position (directly in your line of sight). when the gun is down at hip view, it would be solid opaque.

it doesnt matter if you are in motion or absolutely still. as long as both eyes are open, you wont see the scope housing.

thats the whole point of fast target acquisition with reflex sights.

but with a magnified scope, reflex or not, viewing through the lens in motion is very disorienting. if it is skewed too much to the side or off angle, the image in the scope can have "black spots" (dark flashing that obscures a chunk of the viewable image). its not like a 1x red dot tube scope like an aimpoint comp sight where you can look through it at an angle and still see a clear picture. with magnified scopes, they usually require a certain amount of eye relief (distance of your eye to the lens) if it is too far away, you wont see an image at all or it might actually even be very distorted or even upside down.

ive never in my life seen a game that actually uses reflex sights the way they were designed, not even in any of these so called "realistic" PC mods.

[DeimosWilliams]

You're right if you focus on an object in the distance with the scope merely in your line of sight.

Like the reflex scope below.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/2534710359_2447b9f5e2.jpg


But, like you said a magnified scope is sensitive.

So, to utilize the full potential of a 4x or 6x ACOG scope you have to focus on the sight in the scope more than the object in the distance.

Which is why the ACOG is difficult to use in close scremishes.

When I do that, the housing is completely visible even with two eyes open.

I still have peripheral vision, but the quality is diminished.

[AntiPersonnel]

you dont focus on the scope at all. you only focus on the target in the distance. the bright illuminated reticule will superimpose over the target automatically with no need to focus on it.

[MeanMF]

I think it would be great if they could pull it off. I have never seen a magnified sight treated that way in a game yet though - even the ones that are going for pure authenticity.

I'm just not sure how well it would work in a game. Having the two different magnifications on screen at the same time could be disorienting. It works in real life because you're seeing a different image in either eye and your brain puts it together. Seeing it on screen like that might not give the same effect.

Also, how would they determine controller sensitivity? When you're zoomed in with a scope, you normally turn much more slowly so aiming is more precise. With the merged image, you'd either still end up switching back and forth between zoomed and unzoomed, or you'd need a way to enter "precise aiming" mode.


Originally posted by DeimosWilliams:
Which is why the ACOG is difficult to use in close scremishes.

Stack 'em! If you look at the third picture that you posted above, there's a red dot sight attached to the top of the magnified sight that he's looking through. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[AntiPersonnel]

I think it would be great if they could pull it off. I have never seen a magnified sight treated that way in a game yet though - even the ones that are going for pure authenticity.

I'm just not sure how well it would work in a game. Having the two different magnifications on screen at the same time could be disorienting. It works in real life because you're seeing a different image in either eye and your brain puts it together. Seeing it on screen like that might not give the same effect.

they did a great job in the Insurgency HL2 mod

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nygSPQMBi6A

now if only they did the same for an acog scope, using the bindon aiming concept...




Also, how would they determine controller sensitivity? When you're zoomed in with a scope, you normally turn much more slowly so aiming is more precise. With the merged image, you'd either still end up switching back and forth between zoomed and unzoomed, or you'd need a way to enter "precise aiming" mode.
on a PC this is easily addressed, but on a controller for Xbox or PS3, well i dont know how they would do it on a dualshock3, but on the 360 controller, the left trigger would be used for aiming.

the left trigger is analog. full pull should be normal CQB panning speed (fastest possible), half pull would be slower panning speed for zoomed optics and precise adjustment.

what would be even more awesome is if there were a new modified controller designed that has "dual action" triggers. so that when you half pull, it will have a resistance at the half way point. then breaking through that resistance will give you the full pull. basically a similar feel to a real gun trigger.

this could be cool for both triggers.

on the left trigger to differentiate 2 different aiming speeds. on the right trigger to utilize how some guns use it for the fire selector (half pull = single shot, full pull = auto). and for pistols or other semi-auto guns, the way it is now, you have to release the trigger all the way in order to "reset" the next pull. with the dual action trigger, you only need to release it half way to "reset" for the next trigger pull.


on a game like R6, even if they keep the cover system, rather than cover with L trigger, they can have it mapped to the left bumper.

IMO the left trigger aiming feature is critical for a shooter. clicking with the right stick feels very counter-intuitive

[MeanMF]

Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
they did a great job in the Insurgency HL2 mod

Ooh, that is nice.. I think I'd be happy with that - maybe just make the scope housing a little thinner.


Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
but on the 360 controller, the left trigger would be used for aiming. the left trigger is analog. full pull should be normal CQB panning speed (fastest possible), half pull would be slower panning speed for zoomed optics and precise adjustment.

Hmm I'd have to see that in action to see how well it would work. If the analog sticks were better you could just rely on them. They're too small to give you any real fine control, at least for my hands.


Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
what would be even more awesome is if there were a new modified controller designed that has "dual action" triggers.

Meh, I'm holding out for one of these! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1mfgEa7XEc

[AntiPersonnel]

ha nice i want to try one of those controllers out.

check this one out. i like the concept behind this one, essentially its sort of like having your entire tv work like a red dot sight (holographic parallax effect)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw




Hmm I'd have to see that in action to see how well it would work. If the analog sticks were better you could just rely on them. They're too small to give you any real fine control, at least for my hands.
yeah the stock controller would probably lack the finesse for full analog control, so thats why i suggested only 2 speeds. basically if you press it down all the way, you get the normal tracking speed, and anything thats not fully pressed could be the fine tracking speed. i think it could work, but it would take some getting used to at first.

it would help if the controllers triggers had more tension and resistance, and like i said with the hypothetical "2 stage" trigger pull, it would be a lot easier. it would not only be helpful for this kind of scenario, but others as well, because it is essentially like adding an additional "button" to each of the trigger (similar to the extra button on each analog stick when you "click" them down)

[NOS.SPECTER]

Way to spam the boards gordy.

[gearbolt]

well mainly thanks a lot for much informative post and replies. Iam also playing arma and i found there the most closest optics system witch u so perfectly described here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1tsVq2q_G4

its not entirely it but its the closest think what i could find

[AntiPersonnel]

yeah they modeled the functionality of the EOTech scope nicely there, but it doesnt account for binocular aiming which would really be the biggest feature of using reflex sights to begin with.

so far i have never seen a game or a "realistic" PC mod that has ever incorporated this.