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View Full Version : Remove Screening in ACR



Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 12:27 PM
This is one of those things I have given a good amount of thought to, and I am curious as to what other people's opinions are (I am aware there is an ACR Multiplayer Ideas thread, but I want feedback. That thread is mostly just an idea pile.).

Screening, if anyone doesnt know, is using the edge of a building or roof or a post or something to block Line of Sight with your target, and then show you who your target is by when you re-enter Line of Sight as you walk around your corner or post or whatever.

Now, I use this, everyone who plays ACB uses this, but I personally think its a dumb idea. The general idea of the stealth side of ACB is to try to act like an NPC and blend into the crowd in order to remain hidden. Now, you can't exactly blend into the crowd too well when your pursuers have a magical "I know when you're in line of sight" sense.

I'm not advocating removing the Line of Sight light completely (well... I wouldn't complain about seeing that in Advanced game modes, actually), but DO think there should be a slight, random delay between your target entering LoS and the compass lighting up. Say you walk around the corner into LoS of your target, the compass would not light up for up to 3/4 of a second or so. It could light up immediately, it could wait the full 3/4 of a second, or it could be anywhere in between. This would almost entirely eliminate screening from the game.

I do not believe screening was ever intended to be used to pick individual players out of a blend group/ The developers are obviously showing with their reverse stealth meter in ACR that you are intended to stalk your target, and I believe if you don't have any abilities to reveal your target in a blend group, you should keep them in your sight and wait for them to reveal themselves. Its not like a player is literally going to sit in the corner with you as their only pursuer for the entire game and never do anything, they WILL reveal themselves. They might not even have to do it themselves, they might get derped out of a moving blend group if they'rein one.

Even besides that, there are a variety of abilities intended to reveal targets hidden in a group. Their use is undermined by the screening technique, since you can generally tell exactly who your target is or at least narrow it down to a 50/50 guess even in the largest of blend spots. This also undermines the entire purpose of blending and social stealth, one of the main cores of AC gameplay.

Anyone who plays at a high level already knows that the game becomes less and less about stealth the more skilled the players are you face, since good players can walk around a corner and immediately identify you no matter what you're doing. Instead, the game becomes about lag and smoke-bomb standoffs. I think that adding this delay would be a BIG helpful step in bringing social stealth back into the picture as a working and effective strategy against any player (and hopefully it might reduce the 95% of the population that runs smoke/poison).

TL;DR: Screening makes Social Stealth, one of the primary cores of AC gameplay, next to useless. Adding a small, random delay to entering LoS and lighting up the compass will fix this.

So, thoughts? Anyone agree with me? I would personally REALLY like to see stealth back in the game again. Granted, this wouldn't be an epic-game changer, but it would be a big step in the right direction.



PS: **** the lock glitch and everything it stands for. It is an EXPLOIT. If you use it you're a bad person.

weeklydose
06-28-2011, 12:41 PM
In most blend spots, you can control the number of corners your pursuers can use to screen you. Ideally, you'll only leave them two... and as long as you position yourself in such a way that from your pursuer's angle, he always sees one person right in front of another, you make it harder to be screened quickly.

I usually like it in Manhunt to find the trickiest blend groups for exactly this reason.

That said, I do agree that for some players, the screening trick makes a huge difference. The top tier of players can do it on the fly, almost without stopping, casually walking up to a fully morphed group and still get that one target hiding in there.

And given that, I'd say a slight delay in the compass lighting up might make especially Manhunt a bit more about stealth again.

Now if you ask me: would you like this changed? Well... I'm not sure. I use the trick to my advantage too, after all. But anything that promotes more stealth and less running around (and not even trying to be sneaky) does seem like a good idea.

IIwangcarsII
06-28-2011, 12:48 PM
I dont really mind it tbh, I use it and dont care if my pursuers use it. As long as I have my faithful mute! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 01:06 PM
AGREE

Dave0718
06-28-2011, 01:24 PM
i voted no as i do think it was intended to be in the game,it's just another thing you need to learn to be truly good at the game.

im too impatient to stare at my target's group for 10 minutes waiting for him to do anything.

YourInnate
06-28-2011, 01:25 PM
Sounds like another noob who can't keep up to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Welcome back squiddish.

I personally don't care if they keep los or not. Screening is one thing I might do to figure you out in a morph group. I usually just screen to narrow it down then use my other tricks to go from there. I never actually trust screening 100% because most often, more than persona enters your vision at a time.

Also, ubi got rid of the lock glitch with da vinci. I'm proud to say I never used it.

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by YourInnate:
Also, ubi got rid of the lock glitch with da vinci. I'm proud to say I never used it.
Neither did I, which is why I didn't even know it was gone XD

xCr0wnedNorris
06-28-2011, 01:37 PM
LoS doesn't work for me anyways so... Yeah...

ANTRON77
06-28-2011, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YourInnate:
Also, ubi got rid of the lock glitch with da vinci. I'm proud to say I never used it.
Neither did I, which is why I didn't even know it was gone XD </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was the lock glitch?

xCr0wnedNorris
06-28-2011, 01:43 PM
Apparently if you locked onto a player, they'd stop any blend animations they were doing.

Zoidberg747
06-28-2011, 01:45 PM
Yes welcome back, and i completely agree, would love to see people play without the compass lighting up for a sec

weeklydose
06-28-2011, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by xCr0wnedNorris:
Apparently if you locked onto a player, they'd stop any blend animations they were doing.
I didn't know about this until they fixed it, but I've seen clips of it on YouTube and yeah... that was completely broken. I'm sure I've gotten killed a number of times by people using this glitch on me, way back when.

thergbcolor
06-28-2011, 02:03 PM
For a lot of people screening is something that's done automatically, even without camping at a corner, but generally speaking screening is made up for by the fact that whoever is using that corner generally makes themselves obvious in the process. Learning that awareness of your situation is what makes a good player. I'd vote against it, but I think all of your points are reasonable, and your post did make me stop and really think about it.

whattafool
06-28-2011, 02:22 PM
I voted yes, mainly because I'm pretty bad at screening and it's much more satisfying to get it right just by guessing.

DEMON-12_21_2O12
06-28-2011, 03:02 PM
no, delaying screening makes it too easy for someone to just move along with a blend group while literally doing nothing. they dont even have to walk, the group does it for them. waiting several minutes for someone to move doesnt cut it either, in that time you lose out on a kill you could have had, or you risk being killed by following that person for so long

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Demon12-21-2012:
no, delaying screening makes it too easy for someone to just move along with a blend group while literally doing nothing. they dont even have to walk, the group does it for them. waiting several minutes for someone to move doesnt cut it either, in that time you lose out on a kill you could have had, or you risk being killed by following that person for so long
If they wait that long and don't do anything, they aren't going to be winning. At all. At that point I'd go kill me an NPC, or maybe try to bait them into dropping a smoke bomb.

The odds of one person sitting in a blend group for eternity without killing their target, getting a stun on another pursuer, or doing anything at all are pretty low, because that isn't going to make them win. At all.

So far poll shows a pretty big majority voting yes, with the votes just for the first option being higher than the other 3 put together.

LadyGahan2010
06-28-2011, 03:29 PM
I rarely screen. I use compass as a real compass, usually it shows me the general direction my target can be found at, and if I can't pick out my target from very far (or a group he is in) then I suck and should go take a nap and rest my eyes. I keep my eyes on the target, not compass, so if you take a second away from its lightening up, I'd be fine.
For me compass was very inaccurate in both wanted and team modes so I learned to go without it. Almost. It's doable.
Assassinate is something else though...

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by LadyGahan2010:
Assassinate is something else though...
Assassinate would definitely be the mode most effected by this. Contrary to what it seems like at first, this would actually DISCOURAGE camping in blend groups, since the person camping wouldn't be able to immediately identify people as they walk into sight anymore.

EDIT: Granted, if you walk around a corner totally alone with no NPCs anywhere near you, even with the delay you'd be easily identifiable by the light-up. So the skill of social stealth would still be there.

true_gamer316
06-28-2011, 03:47 PM
well pearsonally i can screen when just walking normally so im able to be stealthy and screen them at the same time. as well i disagree with you no offence but then picking people in blend groups would be luck based which i dont want to happen

Dave0718
06-28-2011, 03:58 PM
I really like the fast paced exciting action of the multiplayer and don't want that to turn into everybody walking everywhere and standing near blend groups waiting for things to happen.

to me it sounds like a very boring game.

Smavey
06-28-2011, 03:59 PM
To OP.

It's not overpowered at all. Really all I can say Adapt Adapt Adapt.

Pretty much place yourself in a position where they can't do that. If you see someone do that, stun them. They are the ones that aren't being stealthy.

rocketxsurgeon
06-28-2011, 04:01 PM
I agree with the idea entirely. The line of sight is not intended to be used to determine which persona is the target in a blend group, like firecrackers or templar vision.

People use the LoS as if it was an ability to pick out a target from the crowd, which obviously deters people from blending. So i voted- Yes, it will help promote social stealth.

Pattington_Bear
06-28-2011, 04:10 PM
I use screening all the time, and removing it would be just ridiculous and a terrible idea, it's bad enough that we have to stand and wait for the meter to charge when standing next to a target in ACR, advocating a free stun or run. But removing the line of sight will ruin it, it will force players to use more common sets like morph I don't really want to stand and wait for my target to make a move so I can determine which one is my target mostly in manhunt (yes I can wait for a mistake, but i'd rather get the kill and move on to my next target)... I just don't understand how this promotes stealth... I can use corners, they can't see me, isn't that technically stealth? not following a NPC stream, is not stealth any decent player can pick out a pursuer because of this.

Sorry bad idea...

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:14 PM
This idea that losing the magic-LOS-ability will cause everyone to stand in blend groups all the time is fascinating.

Is there a change in ACR I'm unaware of whereby standing in a blend group for the entire game is a viable strategy?

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 04:15 PM
Everything people are saying about "everyone will just stand around in blend groups" is exactly what everyone said about Assassinate when it was announced. Is that what happens in Assassinate, at all?

People are using LoS like its supposed to be an ability to reveal targets in blend groups. If too many people in your lobby are morphing or using blend groups, either stalk them until they make a move (you have to fill up the meter in ACR anyway) or bring one of the load of persona-revealing abilities.

you guys talk like this one little change will make everyone stand in a blend group and not move for the entire round, and that wouldn't happen at all. People want points, so people are going to go hunting. Sure, a few people, maybe people with the lead in Wanted, will hang out in blends. They do that now anyway, and plenty of people get them fine without having to randomly guess or use LoS.

All this would change is the ability to identify a target who is standing in a blend group not being obvious at all by simply walking around a corner. As far as I can tell, the blend groups were intended for you to... blend in.



EDIT: Crumple, you ninja'd me. I WAS ELABORATING.

IBYCFOTA
06-28-2011, 04:15 PM
I'm pretty mixed on the subject. On one hand, screening can often be used to perfection to detect your targets, and in general that's sort of lame. On the other hand, I shudder to think of what ACB would be like without this technique. The only way to reliably find your targets would be to use templar vision or firecrackers. The former makes you very obvious unless you can find a way to break LOS of your target while still being in TV range. In many situations, that's very difficult to do. As for firecrackers, most targets will simply bail when you use it on them. If this were Manhunt that wouldn't be a big deal because you have teammates who can cut them off, but in Wanted it wouldn't be an effective means to dealing with blended targets, which is one of the reasons why you almost never see it used in that mode.

Edit: I forgot charge as an ability to find targets. Don't think a bunch of people charging in the general direction of their targets to earn kills promotes stealth gameplay, though.

So basically, for me, the lack of alternatives is why I'm not in favor of such a change. Perhaps if there were more practical abilities that could be used to find your target I could have my mind changed, but not as the game currently stands. Further, screening helps keep the game fast paced, a big appeal to many fans of the multiplayer.

Having said all that, I wouldn't mind if ACR introduced a game mode with a heavier emphasis on stealth, whether it be removing screening methods or whatever else. More options for the players is always better.

StarScream391
06-28-2011, 04:16 PM
No way, and no need to explain why I said no because the answer is obvious.

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Perhaps if there were more practical abilities that could be used to find your target I could have my mind changed, but not as the game currently stands.
...charge?

IBYCFOTA
06-28-2011, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Perhaps if there were more practical abilities that could be used to find your target I could have my mind changed, but not as the game currently stands.
...charge? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was re-reading my post and just added Charge which I forgot since it's not really a passive ability. Do we really want the game to be a Charge-fest? That ability has practically ruined my enjoyment of Manhunt.

Pattington_Bear
06-28-2011, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
Everything people are saying about "everyone will just stand around in blend groups" is exactly what everyone said about Assassinate when it was announced. Is that what happens in Assassinate, at all?

People are using LoS like its supposed to be an ability to reveal targets in blend groups. If too many people in your lobby are morphing or using blend groups, either stalk them until they make a move (you have to fill up the meter in ACR anyway) or bring one of the load of persona-revealing abilities.

you guys talk like this one little change will make everyone stand in a blend group and not move for the entire round, and that wouldn't happen at all. People want points, so people are going to go hunting. Sure, a few people, maybe people with the lead in Wanted, will hang out in blends. They do that now anyway, and plenty of people get them fine without having to randomly guess or use LoS.

All this would change is the ability to identify a target who is standing in a blend group not being obvious at all by simply walking around a corner. As far as I can tell, the blend groups were intended for you to... blend in.



EDIT: Crumple, you ninja'd me. I WAS ELABORATING.

Don't you think that persona revealing abilities will force people to play with limited play styles? As I said, I don't want to be standing around just for 1 kill... and you'll most likely be killed before you locate them.

I'd rather use sets that give me high points, compared to sets that give me away...

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
Don't you think that persona revealing abilities will force people to play with limited play styles? As I said, I don't want to be standing around just for 1 kill... and you'll most likely be killed before you locate them. But wouldn't you also be standing still in a blend group somewhere, since it would (apparently) be the winning strategy?

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:26 PM
Actually, I'd be happy enough if they just added this delay to LOS when people are using disguises. Screening people in blend groups I don't mind so much, what annoys me is that if you use a disguise and you aren't basically inside a blend group, it is trivial for pursuers to identify you.

I also like the idea of limited-time blend groups combined with removing screening, where the blend group will somehow give you away after some amount of time, so you can use it to lose or identify a pursuer, but not just stand around all day.

Pattington_Bear
06-28-2011, 04:26 PM
I will never stand around in FFA, I always use NPC streams and without line of sight, well how can I leave the group without being noticed? I would not have a problem with a moving target, but blend groups would be pointless...

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
I will never stand around in FFA So what makes you think anyone else will?

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
I will never stand around in FFA, I always use NPC streams and without line of sight, well how can I leave the group without being noticed? I would not have a problem with a moving target, but blend groups would be pointless...
Well assuming you're killing people, you're going to be noticed anyway. its not about NEVER being noticeable, its about being noticeable when there's nobody around to notice.

Seriously, where is this notion that changing the LoS light will make everyone stand in blend groups all day come from?

Pattington_Bear
06-28-2011, 04:29 PM
Crumple, seriously? how many people try to stun lock in MH? If it is a winning strategy everyone will do it, and that is a Pattington approval.

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
If it is a winning strategy everyone will do it Yes, but a) It won't be. Standing around, not the best plan, in any mode. And b) you just said you won't, so I guess everyone won't even if it was a winning strategy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pattington_Bear
06-28-2011, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Crumplecorn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
If it is a winning strategy everyone will do it Yes, but a) It won't be. Standing around, not the best plan, in any mode. And b) you just said you won't, so I guess everyone won't even if it was a winning strategy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay let's put it this way, losing the LoS will force players to get less kills, lower scores, use limited sets and play styles, such as morph and revealing abilities. Btw as far as i know there is still such a thing a moving blend groups...

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
losing the LoS will force players to get less kills Why?


Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
lower scores Why?


Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
use limited sets and play styles such as morph and revealing abilities Nope, I'm **** at screening and I still don't carry crackers/TV/Charge/whatever.
As for being 'forced' to carry morph, again, only if standing around now suddenly wins you games.


Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
Btw as far as i know there is still such a thing a moving blend groups... Yes, let's see all those videos of people getting good FFA scores by moving around in blend groups all the time.

Oh, wait...

Dave0718
06-28-2011, 04:43 PM
I dont want to sacrifice my high point kill ability sets with firecrackers and templar vision,

sorry but that just doesn't sound enjoyable at all.

why do people want a slow boring game, or the other way it could turn is that every single person just runs the entire game.

Pattington_Bear
06-28-2011, 04:44 PM
How will losing the LoS promote stealth?


How?

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Pattington_Bear:
How will losing the LoS promote stealth?


How? Social Stealth would no longer have a free counter.

sht4brainz
06-28-2011, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Dave0718:
I really like the fast paced exciting action of the multiplayer and don't want that to turn into everybody walking everywhere and standing near blend groups waiting for things to happen.

to me it sounds like a very boring game.

Nail, meet hammer. This is why I find assassinate boring. Why this discussion is even taking place, I'll never know.

YourInnate
06-28-2011, 05:01 PM
Can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet, but there is actually a completely legitimate reason of why ubi not only won't do this, but in fact, CAN'T do this.

Drum roil please.....

CHEST CAPTURE!!!

Not what you expected me to say huh?

Well, I'm being roundabout, and cc isn't actually the answer, but truthfully, cc taught us the answer.

Chest capture scrambles your radar when you are killing, yes? Well what did people do to adapt and still easily find their targets? They started looking at the discretion meter!

Ok, enough being roundabout... Ubi created the compass and the discretion meter in conjunction with one another. If you delayed the compass from lighting up, you could still screen using the discretion meter. With the way the compass is slated to work in the new game, when you round the corner, as soon as your target is in view, the meter will visibly rise from discreet on upwards. In the current game, it outright glows when in los.

So sorry everyone, but a change will not prevent screening from happening. They HAVE to tell us our level of discretion, and since discretion is los based, that meter will never go away, or can never have a delay.

/thread

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by YourInnate:
/thread All you have to do is add a slight delay to that too.

Dave0718
06-28-2011, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Crumplecorn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YourInnate:
/thread All you have to do is add a slight delay to that too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so it will take more time for it to fill up, oh yes much better,problem solved

acr-the slow game for senior citizens

Crumplecorn
06-28-2011, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Dave0718:
acr-the slow game for senior citizens ACB: The hyper game for ADD-riddled kids.

Oh look, I can do it too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Orobas88
06-28-2011, 05:41 PM
Squiiddish's original suggestion wouldn't even eliminate the possibility of screening, it would just make it quite a bit more difficult and require more obvious behaviour to do it. If you really wanted to screen with a delay you still could, but they would almost certainly know who you are by the time you identified them.

Personally I think blending is underpowered for some other reasons but I don't want to hijack this thread.

rocketxsurgeon
06-28-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Orobas88:
Squiiddish's original suggestion wouldn't even eliminate the possibility of screening, it would just make it quite a bit more difficult and require more obvious behaviour to do it. If you really wanted to screen with a delay you still could, but they would almost certainly know who you are by the time you identified them.

Personally I think blending is underpowered for some other reasons but I don't want to hijack this thread.

Well if the delay is random, its very difficult to single out one person in a blend group.

Especially because blend groups are quite small, even if you attempted LoS with this idea, it would be more of a guess anyway. You could walk past the object and the compass light up faster when trying to find one target in comparison to another. Thats what the random timing is for, to stop people even anticipating the time delay because each time it will be different. So i think it would stop screening, because it would be almost impossible to guess the time frame in the first place.

But yes, i do agree that screening using this idea would really give away your position. Said screener would probably be intercepted by his persuer before he even attempted to kill his target.

Nitrox92
06-28-2011, 06:53 PM
With squiiddish's idea, screening would be possible (and quite obvious) on standing blend groups, on moving blend groups thou, it'd b near impossible to screen like this. On wanted, most people won't stay in a blend group for much time, but there's always that guy in almost every match who doesn't really know what's good for him and will stay in a blend group, and pretty much force you to either use a revealing ability, kill a civilian to get a new contract, or take a guess and risk giving away a lure. In assassinate, if all the players decide to play "stealthily" (which is actually quite rare) then there's bound to be 1 person that has a target identifying ability (I personally think fc is a must for assassinate anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) that will set a kill train in motion.

The problem with this new LoS would be that there would be no way to actually get the kill on your target without spending way too much time (risking to be killed) trying to figure out their identity or trying your luck and guessing.

But then again, it's just 1 or 2 guys/match we're talking about here. If they do that, they will barely get any points, which means they ll be pretty down on the scoreboard. Someone down the scoreboard is unlikely to get many pursuers, meaning that your the chances of getting them as your contract are low. Sure, you'll get them a few times during the match but that's still not a big deal.

So in other words, if you want to keep your pace up, you'll have to take a guess now and then, but come to think about it, that's not so game breaking is it? It would give sense to blending at higher levels too, which honestly, I wouldn't mind.

EDIT: also, some of the people are treating squiiddish's idea like he was just complaining about something he can't deal with. It's not that he can't deal with those trying to screen him that he has a problem with, but it's with the general effect of being able to screen on a match that he really does, and in my opinion, he's quite right about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

DaVe_RoCk_
06-28-2011, 07:12 PM
Why not make the compass more advanced? i'm talking about making it bright just and only if the target's reall in line of sight.

Well they could make other things like NPCs to be obstacules, so if someone is in front of your target (a NPC) it wont bright.

Imagine it now in moving blend groups. It'd be a lot harder but still keeping the fast pace. Idk just an idea.

DEMON-12_21_2O12
06-28-2011, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Demon12-21-2012:
no, delaying screening makes it too easy for someone to just move along with a blend group while literally doing nothing. they dont even have to walk, the group does it for them. waiting several minutes for someone to move doesnt cut it either, in that time you lose out on a kill you could have had, or you risk being killed by following that person for so long
If they wait that long and don't do anything, they aren't going to be winning. At all. At that point I'd go kill me an NPC, or maybe try to bait them into dropping a smoke bomb.

The odds of one person sitting in a blend group for eternity without killing their target, getting a stun on another pursuer, or doing anything at all are pretty low, because that isn't going to make them win. At all.

So far poll shows a pretty big majority voting yes, with the votes just for the first option being higher than the other 3 put together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well thats because you play on xbox...ps3 on , the other hand lol, i get ALOT of people camping in stationary groups or mobile blend groups. and here lately its been a swamp of morph.

now me personally, i dont want to use TV to find them, one it takes an ability slot, two it makes me look like edward cullins

so that leaves charge, not a fan of it, my aim sucks lol

firecrackers - i dont know how it goes on xbox, i dont see you using them alot in your videos(which i used to watch very frequently...and still do) but on ps3, any sign of firecrackers, the target takes off like a burnt beaver on wheels

i just dont like the delaying idea, if you are after a target, they walk the corner and hit disguise then walk out in a blend group or with numerous people, that delay can(and probably would) cost you points and land you with being stunned. and im not a fan of that lol


i guess everyone will have their preference. if you pay close attention it almost seems like the compass is delayed a wee bit, or maybe its just me?



EDIT: actually if i remember right(yep just watched), you (Squiidish) screened someone in the Wanted All Star match in san donato lol. the priest at 9:35 lol.

its ok, im not ragging on you lol

obliviondoll
06-28-2011, 11:03 PM
I still like MY LoS suggestion better. I've made it elsewhere multiple times, but here we go again...

When you're in a blend group, LoS should trigger when ANY member of the group is in LoS, not just the player.

Problem solved.

PryingTuna85649
06-28-2011, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
I agree with the idea entirely. The line of sight is not intended to be used to determine which persona is the target in a blend group, like firecrackers or templar vision.

People use the LoS as if it was an ability to pick out a target from the crowd, which obviously deters people from blending. So i voted- Yes, it will help promote social stealth.

This is a GREAT way of phrasing it. The Assassinate lobby I was in tonight (same people as last night randomly generated...yay) was filled ENTIRELY of people who could use this method without even thinking (I'm assuming...unless lag on my end was so bad that my persona was glitching 10 minutes straight). They'd come around a corner alone and have me locked before I could even lock them. And I have to give them credit, because at least one of the is in the top 3...I don't want to make it sound like there was unfair gaming occurring, especially if those people are on here, because that's not the case AT ALL...they are FAAAAAAR better players than me and the only reason I hate ending up in lobbies like that is because I end up getting scores under 1K. And that's humiliating. But after the very last match I played tonight, I was really starting to hate screening.

lx_Reafer_xl
06-28-2011, 11:29 PM
I don't get how this will encourage people to be more stealthy.

All it's going to do is make people try and spook their targets into smoking/revealing themselves in some way.
Which is the opposite of being stealthy.

Either that, or sacrifice one of their ability slots, which I can't see a lot of the higher ranked players doing.

Make it possible to carry three abilities, and I'll agree.
Lol.

Squiiddish
06-28-2011, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
I still like MY LoS suggestion better. I've made it elsewhere multiple times, but here we go again...

When you're in a blend group, LoS should trigger when ANY member of the group is in LoS, not just the player.

Problem solved.
This would also be great, and would accomplish the same purpose. I actually like this idea quite a lot.

I am still not understanding how people are making the spectacularly ridiculous logical jump from "No LoS screening" to "OMG EVERYONE WILL STAND IN BLEND GROUPS ALL GAME AND NOBODY WILL DIE AND THERE WILL BE NO POINTS AND BORING GAME".


Ask yourself, how often do you actually have to use screening to get your kills in a game? How often do you find your targets other ways? Its just something that would bring back the original spirit of the game rather than the smoke bomb combat-fest its turned into.

Removing the borderline-exploit ability to magically sense when your target is in view isn't going to shove everybody into blend groups, its simply going to make it less pointless to hide in a blend spot.

IBYCFOTA
06-28-2011, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
I still like MY LoS suggestion better. I've made it elsewhere multiple times, but here we go again...

When you're in a blend group, LoS should trigger when ANY member of the group is in LoS, not just the player.

Problem solved.

Interesting idea, but I think it would make blend groups too powerful for my liking.

Whatever Ubisoft does in the future to address screening, I just hope a lot of thought and testing goes into it.

IBYCFOTA
06-28-2011, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
I still like MY LoS suggestion better. I've made it elsewhere multiple times, but here we go again...

When you're in a blend group, LoS should trigger when ANY member of the group is in LoS, not just the player.

Problem solved.
This would also be great, and would accomplish the same purpose. I actually like this idea quite a lot.

I am still not understanding how people are making the spectacularly ridiculous logical jump from "No LoS screening" to "OMG EVERYONE WILL STAND IN BLEND GROUPS ALL GAME AND NOBODY WILL DIE AND THERE WILL BE NO POINTS AND BORING GAME".


Ask yourself, how often do you actually have to use screening to get your kills in a game? How often do you find your targets other ways? Its just something that would bring back the original spirit of the game rather than the smoke bomb combat-fest its turned into.

Removing the borderline-exploit ability to magically sense when your target is in view isn't going to shove everybody into blend groups, its simply going to make it less pointless to hide in a blend spot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure I buy the whole 'spirit of the game' part. I mean, LOS is one of the most straightforward features in the game. Your target walks into your view and your compass lights up. Do you really not think that Ubisoft thought people would use it this way? Maybe they didn't think people would become surgical with it to the point that it made certain abilities near obsolete, but certainly they had to have known that screening would be an integral part of the gameplay. They even had a beta for crying out loud!

Don't necessarily agree with you about this change removing the overusage of smoke bombs either. Until smoke bombs are nerfed, they'll always be used in a myriad of situations by all good players. Changing the methods of LOS won't do much of anything to deter smoke bomb fests imo.

obliviondoll
06-28-2011, 11:52 PM
I also hope they fix the gentle push so it moves players as well.

And seriously, Reafer, if you take away an ability that effectively is an exploit of the game mechanics, the higher-ranked players who use it WILL be sacrificing their ability slot for something more effective.

Whether they like the idea or not, they'll adapt, and if they don't, they don't deserve to be called high-level players.

Don't worry, you'll still be up there - you know how to use Edward Vision and firecackers properly, so you're ahead of a lot of players out there.

lx_Reafer_xl
06-29-2011, 12:04 AM
@Oblivion:
You're probably right (like always. lol).
I guess I'm just afraid Ubisoft is going to screw AC:MP up...

Ah well.
All we can really do is hope for the best.

Squiiddish
06-29-2011, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Don't necessarily agree with you about this change removing the overusage of smoke bombs either. Until smoke bombs are nerfed, they'll always be used in a myriad of situations by all good players. Changing the methods of LOS won't do much of anything to deter smoke bomb fests imo.
What I meant by that is that nobody uses blend groups for stealth anymore (well, almost nobody), they only use them for a hidden bonus. Nobody is using these things to actually hide because everyone has a free group-revealing tool with screening. All it comes down to now is who can get the other player in their smoke bomb, stealth is almost never an actual factor.

obliviondoll
06-29-2011, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Don't necessarily agree with you about this change removing the overusage of smoke bombs either. Until smoke bombs are nerfed, they'll always be used in a myriad of situations by all good players. Changing the methods of LOS won't do much of anything to deter smoke bomb fests imo.
What I meant by that is that nobody uses blend groups for stealth anymore (well, almost nobody), they only use them for a hidden bonus. Nobody is using these things to actually hide because everyone has a free group-revealing tool with screening. All it comes down to now is who can get the other player in their smoke bomb, stealth is almost never an actual factor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I still use groups for stealth...

Usually pretty effectively too.

You have to be MUCH more careful about it now though.

And yes, I'll admit, I'm in a VERY small minority by hiding as a defensive tactic.

IBYCFOTA
06-29-2011, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Don't necessarily agree with you about this change removing the overusage of smoke bombs either. Until smoke bombs are nerfed, they'll always be used in a myriad of situations by all good players. Changing the methods of LOS won't do much of anything to deter smoke bomb fests imo.
What I meant by that is that nobody uses blend groups for stealth anymore (well, almost nobody), they only use them for a hidden bonus. Nobody is using these things to actually hide because everyone has a free group-revealing tool with screening. All it comes down to now is who can get the other player in their smoke bomb, stealth is almost never an actual factor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fair. I definitely think that blend groups should be a more effective defensive tool than they are currently. I'm just weary of what the alternative solutions are. It would be pretty disappointing if I had to devote an ability slot to find every target that is using blender. To some degree player ability should come into play when it comes to revealing targets, which is why I am ok with screening as it stands now. If ACB were to remove the various LOS tricks tomorrow, I think the game would be immensely less enjoyable.

IBYCFOTA
06-29-2011, 01:40 AM
Doing a little bit more thinking about the subject and I think I may have come across an interesting fix. What if your persona had very small, subtle differences from your lookalikes, and players had to use their own skills of observation to tell their target from the imposters? They could still take the easy way out and use a target-revealing ability to aid them, but this would give betters players the opportunity to legitimately pick their target out of the group if they're skilled enough without having to waste an ability slot.

To keep it from being too formulaic, the differences between your persona and it's lookalikes would be varied every match, and all lookalikes would vary some from the other lookalikes. Could be a certain color pattern in their clothing, facial appearance differences, height and weight, the possibilities are endless really. Implementing this would also completely remove the 'glowing' aspect of the compass used for screening as it would no longer be necessary.

Intuitively it also makes sense, because obviously no two people are exactly alike, and if somebody realistically gave you a target to kill and there were a bunch of people that looked similar nearby, your natural assassin instinct would not be to use magic xray vision or throw a flashbang on the ground, it would be to use your knowledge of what the target looks like to eliminate other suspects from your search until you've narrowed it down to the right guy.

It's a simple idea at it's core but would take plenty of development time to get into a full game, so obviously this is not a viable quick fix solution that could be used in ACR. I do think it's a very intriguing idea though that if executed properly could bring a dynamic and ultimately balanced target system to the multiplayer. It would also solve any of the aforementioned screening exploits.

Thoughts?

EscoBlades
06-29-2011, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Don't necessarily agree with you about this change removing the overusage of smoke bombs either. Until smoke bombs are nerfed, they'll always be used in a myriad of situations by all good players. Changing the methods of LOS won't do much of anything to deter smoke bomb fests imo.
What I meant by that is that nobody uses blend groups for stealth anymore (well, almost nobody), they only use them for a hidden bonus. Nobody is using these things to actually hide because everyone has a free group-revealing tool with screening. All it comes down to now is who can get the other player in their smoke bomb, stealth is almost never an actual factor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I still use groups for stealth...

Usually pretty effectively too.

You have to be MUCH more careful about it now though.

And yes, I'll admit, I'm in a VERY small minority by hiding as a defensive tactic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm the same. I use blend groups to actually hide. I also position myself within these groups to minimis the screening opportunity for my pursuers.

Mouse03
06-29-2011, 02:35 AM
Can i ask, how is LOS actually defined in ACB?
Does it mean that it lights up when;
a) you can see your target, but they can't neccessarily see you,
Or
b) you can see your target and they can definitly see you?

Back on topic, this is exactly what i was going to say... about standing in a group in such a way that will make it harder for your pursuer to 1) screen, and 2) to get to you.
I use blend groups often.

I understand the point Squiiddish is trying to make, and in essence i agree.
But you simply cannot implement a delay on LOS. One word why not...
Lag!!!

We already have problems with it, i've had where my compass not only doesn't light up, but doesn't even fill up when target is in LOS.
I have trouble using poison, damn thing tells me i have to be closer, when i'm damn near on top of my target.
Dare i try to do it while someone is running past me, i have to double-back so many times, it's rediculous.
People teleporting all over the place.
It would be choas. Never mind blend group camping, although i don't believe this would happen anyway.

But you'd be giving yourself away because lag would mean you've walked right past them before the thing lights up. Either you notice this, and turn around and try to catch up to them (= stun because your target will see you coming).
Or you kill an NCP thinking it's your target, who is perfectly well and way off in the distance.

So no, you cannot have a delay. Not for 1sec, not 3/4 sec, not 1/1000 of a second.
Delay and lag are bad enough as it is already. And don't say they'll fix it for ACR. Firstly, I doubt it. Secondly, there will always be some delay due to people playing with other people from across the world. Internet speeds, connections, pings...no, just no...you can't put delays on anything.

But the principle of the idea i do agree with. In which case, i have to go with Oblivion's idea. This takes out the screening, and no delay on your compass means it lights up when target is in sight.

obliviondoll
06-29-2011, 04:02 AM
LoS currently works when you can draw a straight line between the two characters without any solid object blocking the way.

What I think would fix the problem is my suggestion.

People who place themselves in stupid positions NPCs never stand will still be identifiable as players. People who derp about in blend groups thinking they're sneaky sneaky just because they're still standing on the blend spot will still be identifiable as players. People who use gentle push to rearrange a blend group will be able to conceal themselves more effectively, but will still need to make some measure of movement to reveal themselves if they want to go for a kill. And they're still vulnerable to NPCs walking in, standing on their spot and giving them away.

Just Krispy
06-29-2011, 08:25 AM
I'm the same. I use blend groups to actually hide. I also position myself within these groups to minimis the screening opportunity for my pursuers

hat's fair. I definitely think that blend groups should be a more effective defensive tool than they are currently. I'm just weary of what the alternative solutions are. It would be pretty disappointing if I had to devote an ability slot to find every target that is using blender. To some degree player ability should come into play when it comes to revealing targets, which is why I am ok with screening as it stands now. If ACB were to remove the various LOS tricks tomorrow, I think the game would be immensely less enjoyable.
I proudly use blend groups and blender but I can understand Squiddish's point of LOS. We go to all that trouble to hide and we end up using abilities anyway because they figured out who we are by using LOS. Now I see why players will just stand out in the middle of the map drawing out pursuers..

ABXantos
06-29-2011, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
This is one of those things I have given a good amount of thought to, and I am curious as to what other people's opinions are (I am aware there is an ACR Multiplayer Ideas thread, but I want feedback. That thread is mostly just an idea pile.).

Proceed.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sVjBMNf5n58/TENHSv9_guI/AAAAAAAAAUI/PaGQAllWlEQ/s400/Gendo_ikari.jpg


Screening, if anyone doesnt know, is using the edge of a building or roof or a post or something to block Line of Sight with your target, and then show you who your target is by when you re-enter Line of Sight as you walk around your corner or post or whatever.

Now, I use this, everyone who plays ACB uses this, but I personally think its a dumb idea. The general idea of the stealth side of ACB is to try to act like an NPC and blend into the crowd in order to remain hidden. Now, you can't exactly blend into the crowd too well when your pursuers have a magical "I know when you're in line of sight" sense.


Well you also got to remember, we are inside the animus. The compass is not a sense, it is a tool provided by the animus. In a real life situation if you were an assassin, you know who you contract is, where they are going, and you will basically tail them before kill them. Since everyone is the same persona within the Animus world, it is on fair to provide a compass to indicate they are there. Whatever other tactics are used to identify who is who from there is the discretion of the player.

Also, in a lot of situations, screening is VERY unreliable. In some parts of Rome, Venice, and Forli as well as many simple objects such as trees and market stands, objects are "see-through" so the compass will activate sooner than expected, disrupting the screening process and forces you to play the "Pick a target" game as you should.

There are a lot of "magical things" like Whispers or Charge that break stealth gameplay as well (Iíll talk about charge later). If the same magical sense argument is to be played on both sides to even it out, then you should probably lose the ability to hear whispers. It's a reversed compass; a magical sense that lets me know I'm about to get killed. You have to look at both sides of the player. If you have to mess with the compass so players have a harder time identifying targets, players need to have a harder time identifying their pursuers.


I'm not advocating removing the Line of Sight light completely (well... I wouldn't complain about seeing that in Advanced game modes, actually), but DO think there should be a slight, random delay between your target entering LoS and the compass lighting up. Say you walk around the corner into LoS of your target, the compass would not light up for up to 3/4 of a second or so. It could light up immediately, it could wait the full 3/4 of a second, or it could be anywhere in between. This would almost entirely eliminate screening from the game.
From the argument you have made you basically are asking for a removal of the LoS. (And you would have such an awful mess if you added this in something like advanced wanted, it would be like playing Wanted with an Assassinate compass that doesnít blink) Also, adding a slight randomly delay creates a HUGE advantage to people like me that use morph and disguise. Even if we pop in front of our pursuers, our compass wonít light up instantly, which gives us a huge opening to grant you a nice big punch in the face. In my honest opinion, I would like that a lot because it gives me such a huge broken advantage but itís not fair to everyone else.
Point of this game, Find your target, Stealthily Kill Them, Hide and evade pursuers. Anything done in game to make the point of the game harder to accomplish would push away people from being interested in this game.

I do not believe screening was ever intended to be used to pick individual players out of a blend group/ The developers are obviously showing with their reverse stealth meter in ACR that you are intended to stalk your target, and I believe if you don't have any abilities to reveal your target in a blend group, you should keep them in your sight and wait for them to reveal themselves. Itís not like a player is literally going to sit in the corner with you as their only pursuer for the entire game and never do anything, they WILL reveal themselves. They might not even have to do it themselves, they might get derped out of a moving blend group if they're in one.
Whether it was intended or not, the fact it exists is for the purpose of completing the point of the game, killing your pursuer. And if I can accomplish that by not wasting my abilities, I will do that. Even if screening didnít exist, I will feign my pursuer run towards them and curve out so when they drop that smoke or mute or charge, they expose themselves and waste it and I now have a clear sight of who to kill. The reverse detection meter will actually promote LESS stealth because you are going to have rely stalk your opponent to get those higher points. Turtle builds like Smoke Mute/Charge will be less effective because you had to be able to attract your pursuers to kill you with the hope your target had one of your pursuers as a target and then score that 400-700 point kill each time, now you will only be getting 200 maybe 300 perk kill done this way, a loss of 400 maximum points.


Even besides that, there are a variety of abilities intended to reveal targets hidden in a group. Their use is undermined by the screening technique, since you can generally tell exactly who your target is or at least narrow it down to a 50/50 guess even in the largest of blend spots. This also undermines the entire purpose of blending and social stealth, one of the main cores of AC gameplay.
Even without the screening techniques, if you trained your senses at all youíd know which people are players in blend crowds (especially morph crowds) so I donít have to waste an ability spot for firecrackers, Templar vision or Charge which if you want to go back to magical abilities that break gameplay, this is THE ability. There is no logic about running into a crowd and automatically pick out the right guy from a crowd. Sure itís a great counter to someone who takes advantage of it, but if you are arguing about going back to proper social stealth, you might want to look at charge being a stealth breaker.
Going back to the using your sense, there has been a point where we all tried using Templar Vision to identify targets and pursuers for us. But as we kept playing we found the need for it become obsolete. We do this with a lot of abilities which is why we no longer use a lot of them. In wanted, I no longer use smoke bombs or mute or charge because I learned to play without them. A good majority of ACB players have to rely on these abilities because they have not yet grown accustomed to stunning without using abilities that incapacitates players (Disguise and Morph still require you to go in and skillfully stun pursuers). Screening canít be done by everyone effectively which is the same as to why some people canít effectively stun without the use of abilities. Make use of what you can use, you shouldnít be told how to play the game nor what you can or cannot use. Everyone wants to win, why stop them from doing that?

Anyone who plays at a high level already knows that the game becomes less and less about stealth the more skilled the players are you face, since good players can walk around a corner and immediately identify you no matter what you're doing. Instead, the game becomes about lag and smoke-bomb standoffs. I think that adding this delay would be a BIG helpful step in bringing social stealth back into the picture as a working and effective strategy against any player (and hopefully it might reduce the 95% of the population that runs smoke/poison).
Not entirely true. Sure stealth degrades (especially when you pack together all the tough players such as all the Top Players from Outcast Templars, Borgia Rejects, Reckoners, and so on) Unless you are playing Wanted (or questionably Assassinate) there is NO reason for you to play a stealth based game especially in the higher levels. Everyone knows who is who and how to identify them. It becomes a battle of who can subdue the other however possible (and no need to screen either). And also, in the case of Wanted, the meta-game in the 360 is completely different than the meta-game in PS3 and in PC. In PS3 a lot of people are slowly dropping defensive builds such as smoke mute and charge(they are still used but variety of other abilities are being seen in higher levels). Iíve been seeing more aggressive builds that include Knives, Firecrackers, and disguise. Morph is even making a comeback despite it being the one ability that is countered by the most abilities in the game. At least in PS3, this smoke bomb lag standoff has been much less of a problem in Wanted ( team modes and assassinate will have this problem in all platforms), and if you are forced to offensively use smoke bomb on your target anyway, you have a problem with trying to kill someone that moves.
And as for smoke bomb and poison, good luck getting rid of that in ACR. I can see offensive smoked used heavily to increase the detection meter as well as to charge focus and deliver a poison. Getting rid of ďscreeningĒ will only make that build be run even more heavily.

PS: **** the lock glitch and everything it stands for. It is an EXPLOIT. If you use it you're a bad person.
Now that was an exploit, and it was removed a LONG time ago, it was the update before the 3.0 DLC came out where it was removed. If you want to rage about the most recent exploit to identifying targets, you might also want to look into the smoke push exploit. That is another stealth game breaker that no one wants to even talk about.

Crumplecorn
06-29-2011, 01:02 PM
That was a very impressive post with a very impressive number of words which, to me, ended up saying surprisingly little. Following are my thoughts.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
Well you also got to remember, we are inside the animus. The compass is not a sense, it is a tool provided by the animus. In a real life situation if you were an assassin, you know who you contract is, where they are going, and you will basically tail them before kill them. Since everyone is the same persona within the Animus world, it is on fair to provide a compass to indicate they are there. Whatever other tactics are used to identify who is who from there is the discretion of the player. I agree with this, nothing in the MP makes sense anyway, so any attempt to make a 'sense' argument... makes no sense.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
Also, in a lot of situations, screening is VERY unreliable. In some parts of Rome, Venice, and Forli as well as many simple objects such as trees and market stands, objects are "see-through" so the compass will activate sooner than expected, disrupting the screening process and forces you to play the "Pick a target" game as you should. This suggests that removing screening may not be as big a deal as people make out.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
There are a lot of "magical things" like Whispers or Charge that break stealth gameplay as well (Iíll talk about charge later). If the same magical sense argument is to be played on both sides to even it out, then you should probably lose the ability to hear whispers. It's a reversed compass; a magical sense that lets me know I'm about to get killed. You have to look at both sides of the player. If you have to mess with the compass so players have a harder time identifying targets, players need to have a harder time identifying their pursuers. Abilities are irrelevant, since the point of LOS is that it is free (does not use an ability slot/have a cooldown/whatever). Whispers should definitely be removed.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
From the argument you have made you basically are asking for a removal of the LoS. (And you would have such an awful mess if you added this in something like advanced wanted, it would be like playing Wanted with an Assassinate compass that doesnít blink) Also, adding a slight randomly delay creates a HUGE advantage to people like me that use morph and disguise. Even if we pop in front of our pursuers, our compass wonít light up instantly, which gives us a huge opening to grant you a nice big punch in the face. In my honest opinion, I would like that a lot because it gives me such a huge broken advantage but itís not fair to everyone else.
Point of this game, Find your target, Stealthily Kill Them, Hide and evade pursuers. Anything done in game to make the point of the game harder to accomplish would push away people from being interested in this game. I won't speak to the total removal of LOS (wacky idea). Giving things like morph and disguise a boost is exactly what this change is intended to do, to state that it will achieve its aim is a strange counterargument. And what is broken about being able to stun someone easily, if you see them coming, disguise, and then behave exactly like an NPC so that they don't realise you are backtracking towards them? Or (lol), if you turn around and approach them in a group of five clones and they somehow don't see you coming. Why should there be a built-in warning saying "hey, pay attention, target is doing something". As for people being pushed away from game because of slightly increased difficulty, I think that will rank fairly low on the (longish) list of reasons not to play AC multiplayer.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do not believe screening was ever intended to be used to pick individual players out of a blend group/ The developers are obviously showing with their reverse stealth meter in ACR that you are intended to stalk your target, and I believe if you don't have any abilities to reveal your target in a blend group, you should keep them in your sight and wait for them to reveal themselves. Itís not like a player is literally going to sit in the corner with you as their only pursuer for the entire game and never do anything, they WILL reveal themselves. They might not even have to do it themselves, they might get derped out of a moving blend group if they're in one.
Whether it was intended or not, the fact it exists is for the purpose of completing the point of the game, killing your pursuer. And if I can accomplish that by not wasting my abilities, I will do that. Even if screening didnít exist, I will feign my pursuer run towards them and curve out so when they drop that smoke or mute or charge, they expose themselves and waste it and I now have a clear sight of who to kill. The reverse detection meter will actually promote LESS stealth because you are going to have rely stalk your opponent to get those higher points. Turtle builds like Smoke Mute/Charge will be less effective because you had to be able to attract your pursuers to kill you with the hope your target had one of your pursuers as a target and then score that 400-700 point kill each time, now you will only be getting 200 maybe 300 perk kill done this way, a loss of 400 maximum points. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Nobody is suggesting that screening does not exist, nor is anyone suggesting that you shouldn't use it. That you can expose people without screening suggests (again) that its loss might not be so keenly felt as some people believe. As for the new stealth meter, regardless of what effect it will actually have, the intention towards greater stealth is clear.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Even besides that, there are a variety of abilities intended to reveal targets hidden in a group. Their use is undermined by the screening technique, since you can generally tell exactly who your target is or at least narrow it down to a 50/50 guess even in the largest of blend spots. This also undermines the entire purpose of blending and social stealth, one of the main cores of AC gameplay.
Even without the screening techniques, if you trained your senses at all youíd know which people are players in blend crowds (especially morph crowds) so I donít have to waste an ability spot for firecrackers, Templar vision or Charge which if you want to go back to magical abilities that break gameplay, this is THE ability. There is no logic about running into a crowd and automatically pick out the right guy from a crowd. Sure itís a great counter to someone who takes advantage of it, but if you are arguing about going back to proper social stealth, you might want to look at charge being a stealth breaker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So again you say screening isn't really needed. As for charge or any other abilities, again, they are irrelevant (in terms of breaking social stealth) (as pointed out before) because they are abilities, whereas LOS is 'free'.


Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
Going back to the using your sense, there has been a point where we all tried using Templar Vision to identify targets and pursuers for us. But as we kept playing we found the need for it become obsolete. We do this with a lot of abilities which is why we no longer use a lot of them. In wanted, I no longer use smoke bombs or mute or charge because I learned to play without them. A good majority of ACB players have to rely on these abilities because they have not yet grown accustomed to stunning without using abilities that incapacitates players (Disguise and Morph still require you to go in and skillfully stun pursuers). Screening canít be done by everyone effectively which is the same as to why some people canít effectively stun without the use of abilities. Make use of what you can use, you shouldnít be told how to play the game nor what you can or cannot use. Everyone wants to win, why stop them from doing that? Since when is attempting to rebalance the game 'telling people how to play'? If we had an I-Win button in ACB, and people asked for it's removal would you say "you shouldn't be told how to play the game nor what you cannot use, everyone wants to win, why stop them from doing that?". No, I think you would consider the pros and cons of having it. There mere fact that we currently have it is not, in itself, a reason to keep it.

I don't know how the 360 compares to PS3, nor do I think this change would affect high level play, so I won't comment on the last part.


As far as I can see this post boils down to "Removing screening will do what we intend it to do, we can get along fine without it, and wordswordsirrelevantwords".


From a more general perspective, I have yet to see an argument against this change which really has more to it than "It will change things and I like how things are".

On the other hand, I haven't see an argument for it which is much more than "I don't like how things are, and this might make it better". So I remain anti-screening but on-the-fence about removing it.

Squiiddish
06-29-2011, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
If you want to rage about the most recent exploit to identifying targets, you might also want to look into the smoke push exploit. That is another stealth game breaker that no one wants to even talk about.
Smoke bomb push has been around since the beginning of time, but a lot less people use that one honestly. It is stupid, but it wasn't an epidemic like the lock glitch.

And SHHH. Less people know about that so less people use it.

ARIANit_
06-29-2011, 01:49 PM
I still lurk in my beloved stationary groups ... they are my favourite things since unicorns. I couldn't care less if someone screens me whilst I'm talking to all my NPC buddies! I'm still going to knock their teeth out with the help of my trusty smokebomb and offer them as a sacrifice to the Blend Group Gods.

IBYCFOTA
06-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Doing a little bit more thinking about the subject and I think I may have come across an interesting fix. What if your persona had very small, subtle differences from your lookalikes, and players had to use their own skills of observation to tell their target from the imposters? They could still take the easy way out and use a target-revealing ability to aid them, but this would give betters players the opportunity to legitimately pick their target out of the group if they're skilled enough without having to waste an ability slot.

To keep it from being too formulaic, the differences between your persona and it's lookalikes would be varied every match, and all lookalikes would vary some from the other lookalikes. Could be a certain color pattern in their clothing, facial appearance differences, height and weight, the possibilities are endless really. Implementing this would also completely remove the 'glowing' aspect of the compass used for screening as it would no longer be necessary.

Intuitively it also makes sense, because obviously no two people are exactly alike, and if somebody realistically gave you a target to kill and there were a bunch of people that looked similar nearby, your natural assassin instinct would not be to use magic xray vision or throw a flashbang on the ground, it would be to use your knowledge of what the target looks like to eliminate other suspects from your search until you've narrowed it down to the right guy.

It's a simple idea at it's core but would take plenty of development time to get into a full game, so obviously this is not a viable quick fix solution that could be used in ACR. I do think it's a very intriguing idea though that if executed properly could bring a dynamic and ultimately balanced target system to the multiplayer. It would also solve any of the aforementioned screening exploits.

Thoughts?

Nobody has any opinions on this?

PryingTuna85649
06-29-2011, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Crumplecorn:
This suggests that removing screening may not be as big a deal as people make out.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.B.Xantos:
Abilities are irrelevant, since the point of LOS is that it is free (does not use an ability slot/have a cooldown/whatever). Whispers should definitely be removed.

I actually agree about the whispers. One thing I realized from reading this thread is that the game has become an offensive game. I'm not saying this to downplay the good players by any means, but the good players know when they can run and when they can't. In Wanted, the whispers tell the player when to blend (when the whispers work). Remove them entirely and stealth WILL be even more important. In Assassinate, removing the whispers would be less of a big deal. In the last several matches I've played, the other players were exceptionally skilled at locking on LITERALLY the very last second before killing their target...it was pretty wicked. The point is people lock on so late that there's not even time for whispers to occur. So what's the point of even having them there? And also in Assassinate, if you do get locked onto and not instantly killed, you also know the Pursuer is close enough to see you, so you need to run away or use an ability.


I won't speak to the total removal of LOS (wacky idea). Giving things like morph and disguise a boost is exactly what this change is intended to do, to state that it will achieve its aim is a strange counterargument. And what is broken about being able to stun someone easily, if you see them coming, disguise, and then behave exactly like an NPC so that they don't realise you are backtracking towards them? Or (lol), if you turn around and approach them in a group of five clones and they somehow don't see you coming. Why should there be a built-in warning saying "hey, pay attention, target is doing something". As for people being pushed away from game because of slightly increased difficulty, I think that will rank fairly low on the (longish) list of reasons not to play AC multiplayer.

I agree with this. This was my entire problem with playing Assassinate last night. I hid to be stealthy in order to lock a person I saw coming, but because of LoS I was dead before I even had a chance. I have to be logical and reasonable and admit there are many other factors involved in that (the skill level of my opponents was EXTREMELY high being the main one), but think of this scenario (this is the best way I can think of putting it...I'm not trying to be offensive/too forward). If someone comes around the corner who has this LoS thing mastered, they are running/obviously a player, and they lock at the same time as you, who instantly spots them running around the corner (ie, NOT being stealthy), the only thing saying who gets the contract is chance. And if you regularly experience lag, you probably won't have the upper hand. If they get the lock, they can easily run full speed at you and kill you, since abilities don't really stop people who are charging at you (not the charge ability, just running as fast as possible) much anymore. That promotes offensive game style, in my mind.

Crumplecorn
06-29-2011, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by IBYCFOTA:
Nobody has any opinions on this? I like the idea. I meant to respond earlier, but I forgot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BigBalledEagle
06-29-2011, 03:09 PM
While I see why the LOS is kind of cheap at times, I think removing it would cause an influx of scrubs using Firecrackers, Templar Vision, and Charge. In my opinion, if you are using LOS to identify a target, then so be it. You are simply recognizing your target and allowing a smart pursuer to recognize you. From this point on, it becomes a matter of who can use their abilities most tactically. So yes, removing LOS would probably increase stealth, but who says that stealth is more important to the game than tactical maneuvers?

Personally, I do not mind if other players use a LOS on me. I still try to put myself in a position where I can tactically use my abilities to stay alive.

I also think that ACB is currently set up for fast-paced, high-scoring games, and removing LOS would suggest that players use passive abilities like Firecrackers that grant the user 0 extra points. If this were the case, how would the top players be differentiated from the beginners?

PryingTuna85649
06-29-2011, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by BigBalledEagle:
While I see why the LOS is kind of cheap at times, I think removing it would cause an influx of scrubs using Firecrackers, Templar Vision, and Charge. In my opinion, if you are using LOS to identify a target, then so be it. You are simply recognizing your target and allowing a smart pursuer to recognize you. From this point on, it becomes a matter of who can use their abilities most tactically. So yes, removing LOS would probably increase stealth, but who says that stealth is more important to the game than tactical maneuvers?

Personally, I do not mind if other players use a LOS on me. I still try to put myself in a position where I can tactically use my abilities to stay alive.

I also think that ACB is currently set up for fast-paced, high-scoring games, and removing LOS would suggest that players use passive abilities like Firecrackers that grant the user 0 extra points. If this were the case, how would the top players be differentiated from the beginners?

While I said that the players I played against last night seemed to have LoS mastered (and that really was the impression I got based on how quickly they picked me out of a blended crowd after turning corners), in all honesty and fairness to them, LoS alone isn't what made them top 10 players. Ultimately I do think the good players are able to spot NPC's from opponents without the use of LoS. Maybe against players of equal skill it serves more use for them, but some like me (I think my templar rank is currently 547?) they won't have as hard of a time. Since it's a part of ACB and people use it frequently (I haven't read all of the comments, but of the ones I have read, both for and against the OP's idea, no one has refused using this), then it should be used. But since so many people can often tell without using LoS now, taking this out of ACR would add a new level of depth to the game.

And wasn't there a debate for a while about how not having an "up" indicator on the compass would play out in Assassinate? I think a lot of people are able to figure out where a person is now even without having that extra indicator.

I know I sound like I'm going back on what I used to support my idea in the first place, but I was trying to use a small bit of your reasoning to support the opposing argument. I do understand where you are coming from, though. And I have kinda learned from a lot of the posts on here as well as yours that I need to start positioning myself smarter in order to combat this. I still am for the OP's idea, though.

obliviondoll
06-29-2011, 09:02 PM
Whispers are a good counter to LoS, honestly... WHEN THEY WORK.

My biggest problem with them isn't their use or lack thereof, it's the fact that in about half the games I play, they kick in when they shouldn't, or don't play when they should. ANd in most of the rest of my games, there are moments where they do one or the other.

If they did MY suggested fix, then I'd say remove the whispers.

Making the compass light up when the player's current hiding place is in view would eliminate LoS, but the whispers would still weaken the position of the attacking player more than I think is fair in that case. Generally the whispers are a generic enough "somebody nearby is hunting you" that they aren't too bad, but there are times when you see someone round a corner as they kick in and you just know "oh good, the game just told me who to look for!"

They could also just tone them down so you won't hear them until the pursuer's in LoS AND below Discreet. That would be a good compromise if they really want to keep them.

I was in the beta where we didn't have whispers, and it gave LoS even more of an advantage, but it made for more tense gameplay on defense, and it was fair against people who weren't abusing the LoS system.

PryingTuna85649
06-29-2011, 10:46 PM
@obliviondoll, I think removing both would be interesting. It would be the only way to keep it kinda evened out. But after trying time and time again tonight to understand LoS, I'm just more lost than before. Of course I understand the concept, but trying to use it tonight, I got EVERY single attempt wrong. So I really don't think it's fair. And I kinda would say it's verging on an exploit. The compass lights up to tell you your target it is sight, but not to stand around a corner and pop out to get the compass to light up in conjunction with a certain persona. It's there, so it will be used and everyone just has to deal with it. But it would be nice to take the stupid thing out.

true_gamer316
06-30-2011, 07:02 AM
as i said earlier screening is fine without it the game would be a guessing game. honestly though if ubisoft removed it we would find another way. Also i dont want screening removed because it will make the game slower paced (not blending for 10 mins but it would go at a slower pace)which most of the good players dont want as we try to get our kills fast and move on well theres afew exceptions but thats the majority of the pro's and tbh when fighting players like that it makes the game more fun. These are my reasons why i think screening should stay happy killing atleast untill i kill you.... lol

Kramerisgamer
06-30-2011, 07:18 AM
There is a glitch where when entering a blend group, I would say 30% of the time this happens to me your character does not talk to the other npcs but stays still as if you were not in a blend group at all. I find this gets me more free kills than LOS.

LaChatNoir
06-30-2011, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by peggysarus:
as i said earlier screening is fine without it the game would be a guessing game. honestly though if ubisoft removed it we would find another way. Also i dont want screening removed because it will make the game slower paced (not blending for 10 mins but it would go at a slower pace)which most of the good players dont want as we try to get our kills fast and move on well theres afew exceptions but thats the majority of the pro's and tbh when fighting players like that it makes the game more fun. These are my reasons why i think screening should stay happy killing atleast untill i kill you.... lol
I don't see it.

There are places which can't be LoS screened, and you can more often than not still pick the derpy one out of the group that isn't standing right - it's REALLY difficult to place yourself in a blend group the way the NPCs do.

Also, no matter what, SOMEONE has to make a move. You WON'T be sitting for a whole match without seeing your target move.

I think it probably would slow the game down, but not by a large amount. And there would be MORE intense moments, not less - which is why I think it's a good idea.

PryingTuna85649
06-30-2011, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by peggysarus:
as i said earlier screening is fine without it the game would be a guessing game. honestly though if ubisoft removed it we would find another way. Also i dont want screening removed because it will make the game slower paced (not blending for 10 mins but it would go at a slower pace)which most of the good players dont want as we try to get our kills fast and move on well theres afew exceptions but thats the majority of the pro's and tbh when fighting players like that it makes the game more fun. These are my reasons why i think screening should stay happy killing atleast untill i kill you.... lol

I agree...I was thinking the entire time that another way would be found. I don't think the game would go slower, though. And even if it did, I personally would like that. But I think I really have been playing super defensively since starting back to playing more regularly. I fear leaving blend groups and going fast, because every time I do, I die. I have horrible luck with running STRAIGHT into people and my reactions aren't quick enough yet to handle these situations. I'll often avoid an area completely if I see several people heading to that area. This is mostly the case, though, when it's dark (I have horrible night vision and inevitably have miserable games on these maps) or when I can't figure out who is who. But it doesn't happen as often during the day anymore, though.

I would like to see less night maps, speaking of changes. I don't think I'd fight about this one as much as I would LoS, though. Even though a lot of people have a harder time with night matches, that's just a vision thing. I don't think it's fair to penalize other people who have normal vision, though (I'm pretty blind without glasses/contacts). LoS is a learning thing that I know I'll eventually learn (and anyone can learn) to manipulate. Which is why it would be interesting to have it changed.

PryingTuna85649
06-30-2011, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Kramerisgamer:
There is a glitch where when entering a blend group, I would say 30% of the time this happens to me your character does not talk to the other npcs but stays still as if you were not in a blend group at all. I find this gets me more free kills than LOS.

This happens to me a lot also. Sucks, because if I'm in a group because someone else is near and they turn a corner right as I'm repositioning myself to make myself blend normally, I'm usually dead.

najzere
06-30-2011, 07:32 AM
I don't think removing or hindering line of sight will help with social stealth. There's nothing socially stealthy about sitting in a blend group and having the computer control your character's animations. Besides placement in the blend, there aren't any other giveaways for a pursuer to try and determine who their target is.

The social stealth actually comes from the pursuer, who tries to screen and approach while acting inconspicuous. And that drives the target to be on the lookout for anything giving away their pursuer. Removing screening will either stop the pursuer from bothering to be stealthy or will slow down the pace of the game, neither of which sound good to me.

There are plenty of ways to make the game more stealthy and I hope ACR will feature some new modes for people that don't want to climb roofs and run around all match. I would love to see more social stealth, but this alone won't help it.

obliviondoll
06-30-2011, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by LaChatNoir:
I don't see it.

There are places which can't be LoS screened, and you can more often than not still pick the derpy one out of the group that isn't standing right - it's REALLY difficult to place yourself in a blend group the way the NPCs do.

Also, no matter what, SOMEONE has to make a move. You WON'T be sitting for a whole match without seeing your target move.

I think it probably would slow the game down, but not by a large amount. And there would be MORE intense moments, not less - which is why I think it's a good idea.
The above post was made by ME, not LaChatNoir.

I had left myself signed in on a background window on the computer while she was using it for other websites, and I didn't realise she'd signed me out and herself in... Sorry for any confusion...

Crumplecorn
06-30-2011, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by najzere:
There's nothing socially stealthy about sitting in a blend group and having the computer control your character's animations. Because blending in with a group of people isn't social stealth at aaaaaalll. No sir.

Squiiddish
06-30-2011, 01:28 PM
A lot of people have brought up the point that the change might have to make them bring firecrackers or TV or something, and are talking about it like its the end of the world. Even if this change did bring more people into blend groups, I see no problem with people bringing things that aren't smoke and poison. I am definitely not against a little more variety.

IBYCFOTA
06-30-2011, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by LaChatNoir:
Also, no matter what, SOMEONE has to make a move. You WON'T be sitting for a whole match without seeing your target move.

I've seen plenty of players who are more than content with morphing a blend group around them when they're in 6th place and have one pursuer. I suspect we would see even more of these people if LOS were to be nerfed without changing other elements of the game.

I still like my earlier idea. Make players use their own observational skills to detect who their targets are by creating subtle differences between them and their lookalikes, and by doing so, this would allow the game to remove LOS altogether.

Archosakun
06-30-2011, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Crumplecorn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by najzere:
There's nothing socially stealthy about sitting in a blend group and having the computer control your character's animations. Because blending in with a group of people isn't social stealth at aaaaaalll. No sir. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely stealth compared to SP. Big guy with weapons and a hood hiding with normal clothed people. Stealthy ¨.¨

I think this is a good idea tbh. Since we'll also have the rising stealth bar, it'll make things a lot more interesting. Nice thought Squiiddish.

true_gamer316
06-30-2011, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
A lot of people have brought up the point that the change might have to make them bring firecrackers or TV or something, and are talking about it like its the end of the world. Even if this change did bring more people into blend groups, I see no problem with people bringing things that aren't smoke and poison. I am definitely not against a little more variety.

i do agree this game needs more variety which is why i have smoke in none of my sets except my alliance set

Squiiddish
06-30-2011, 02:45 PM
While we're on the subject of variety I wouldn't complain about buffing a few abilities to make them more usable so we get more variety, but that's another topic entirely.

true_gamer316
06-30-2011, 03:08 PM
true but do you think taking away screening will bring more variety? lets face it there will just be another overused setup. as well it will make the game slower paced for alot of the better players or the faster paced players thats bad it will make a point where if someone is blending really well and you dont know who it is you will have to wait for them 2 make an obvious move. and the topic of guessing game yes firecrackers/charge/ and templar would negate this however we dont want those to become the overused abilitys firecrackers already is in assasinate. However the reasons why taking out screening is good mainly is it will promote more blending but will still make you go hunting i can see why that is good for some people but i like the game the way it is currently

also i find it funny how the 2 people with the harlequin sig's are the ones having a freindly argument just a funny observation.

trikky d
06-30-2011, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
While we're on the subject of variety I wouldn't complain about buffing a few abilities to make them more usable so we get more variety, but that's another topic entirely.

Agreed, I love throwing knives, it's just a shame that they're so crap.

true_gamer316
06-30-2011, 06:49 PM
knives arent crap use them on manhunt defense 1 on 1s hell ive learned to use them in wanted and get 5k+ no ability is crap (well maybe templar and gun) if you learn to use them NOTHING is crap. i also can use the manhunt offense dont underestimate knives EVER

Orobas88
06-30-2011, 08:04 PM
Well since it's already been mentioned in this thread now, another big reason I think blending is underpowered is the "smoke and push" BS. I think that's ridiculous considering how many thing smoke bomb already trumps.

I actually hope smoke bomb isn't even in the next game but am not holding my breath on that one.

obliviondoll
06-30-2011, 08:06 PM
Knives are absolutely BRUTAL in the right hands.

I'm good with them in Manhunt (not just 1 vs. 1, team games as well) and occasionally take them in Wanted as well.

They're great for setting up Co-Ops with teammates, making targets panic and drop Smoke/Mute when you're out of range, and all sorts of other nasty things. They're also pretty good at helping with Focus in Manhunt and Wanted, especially when your target doesn't have Charge/Sprint Boost, or you know they just used them.

And Knifing someone out of a Charge when they're about to stun your teammate is epic win.

Assassinine
06-30-2011, 09:24 PM
i would support removing screening to promote stealth IF superior mobility wasnt such a powerful option for dealing with pursuers. but as is i am against it.

at high skill levels in ACB the TARGET generally has the upper hand, they use abilities to lock down a pursuer for a stun, or just run, and there is very little the pursuer can do about it.

the problem is mobility, the detection meter roots the pursuer in place, we see this a lot in assassinate. when 2 high level players meet they tend to trade locks back and forth, because noone wants to be the pursuer, the detection meter limits mobility by design, its much easier to simply run at someone and smoke, THEN deal with lock/stun/kill, than it is to try to stalk the player.

a lot of changes ive read about for ACR seem to benefit the target, contested kills, reverse stealth meter, unless im missing something big, defense is going to be even more silly. stalking a target just doesnt seem viable, NPC pathing is preset, and there WILL be areas that you MUST become obvious in order to close in. (pantheon for example)

i just cant support making it harder on the pursuer, im all for stealth, but i cant see it happening in ACR, especially with shorter match times

if you want to nerf compass to promote stealth, maybe make it less precise?

end rant~

i do think identifying blended targets should incorporate SOME form of individual skill, LoS screening fits that well, granted its not hard at all

i wouldnt mind having to use abilities instead to ID, if said abilities were more reliable, say, if a FC blinded target ran, they would be more likely to fall over. stevie wonder shouldnt effortlessly run up a 10 foot wall, imo.

as is target identification abilities just suck, theres a reason everyone uses smoke, its reliable, it has multiple functions, AND gets more points

obliviondoll
06-30-2011, 09:49 PM
Esco's mentioned in a couple of threads that the detection meter will be seeing a big revision - apparently it didn't work out the way they were hoping it would.

And decreasing precision of the compass wouldn't prevent people from exploiting line of sight - and yes, it CAN be considered an exploit. You have an ability that can make you indistinguishable from the other people in your group, other than by your actions. Then another player can walk in and pick you out of the group instantly WITHOUT ANY ABILITIES. If you had to have made a mistake to be spotted, or if it took the player a reasonable amount of time to pick you out, then I'd be all for it, but at present, your pursuer having a decent HDTV can negate Morph for 90% of players who use it. If you're good with Morph, or REALLY lucky, they might only narrow it down to 2 people in the group, but if they re-screen from another angle, they'll have you. Maybe if they have a basic face texture on all the NPCs, and on all players more than 5m away, but when you get close, the player persona gets more details filled in. Then you have to look at the faces, just like you would in real life if you wanted to pick the right person from two with identical clothing.

lastly, if you want FC to be reliable, use them right. Drop them from above where you can more easily catch your target as they run, or take it in conjunction with Knives - Good luck climbing now! Or just approach from the most logical escape route, works more often than not for me if I drop them at a good distance.

I also think that refining the controls so you don't automatically climb when only holding R1 is an important step that should be taken, but that's a little off-topic. Would help with controlling your running and chasing though.

PryingTuna85649
06-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by peggysarus:
also i find it funny how the 2 people with the harlequin sig's are the ones having a freindly argument just a funny observation.

Lol, I saw your signature and thought Squiddish changed his opinion for a moment. But I didn't think that sounded like the impression I've gotten of Squiddish from his commentaries, so I had to do a double take. And thought the same thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

PryingTuna85649
06-30-2011, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Orobas88:
Well since it's already been mentioned in this thread now, another big reason I think blending is underpowered is the "smoke and push" BS. I think that's ridiculous considering how many thing smoke bomb already trumps.

I actually hope smoke bomb isn't even in the next game but am not holding my breath on that one.

WTF is the "smoke and push" thing? I don't know what this smoke exploit is and I didn't want to ask because I want to keep myself as a player above stupid exploits, but after you said this it makes me wonder if I haven't actually been experiencing this a lot in matches. Would certainly explain a lot.

Squiiddish
06-30-2011, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by PryingTuna85649:
WTF is the "smoke and push" thing?
You cannot gentle push players. So if you throw a smoke bomb at a group and hold B (circle) and walk through it, the one you can't move out of your way is the player.

PryingTuna85649
07-01-2011, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PryingTuna85649:
WTF is the "smoke and push" thing?
You cannot gentle push players. So if you throw a smoke bomb at a group and hold B (circle) and walk through it, the one you can't move out of your way is the player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF, that's BS. I have had that happen to me tons of times. I thought there must have been a smoke exploit, but I couldn't figure out what exactly they were doing. I've seen that work and backfire...I used to see it a lot in Assassinate, but now that I can spot people better, they aren't able to because I'll lock them before they can throw a smoke. As much as this exploit peeves me, I think counter-smoking peeves me even more. Both of those are glitches that need fixed.

Crumplecorn
07-01-2011, 07:09 AM
I think if you are able to get close enough to touch someone, it makes sense that you are able to identify them.

Kramerisgamer
07-01-2011, 07:19 AM
At least the smoke exploit won't be in Revelations because of stunning npcs.

Pwrofdaschwartz
07-01-2011, 08:31 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but sometimes in a stationary blend group, one person, which 99% of the time happens to be a player, isn't "socializing." They stand there as if they aren't blended. I use this more than I do screening. I mostly play manhunt, not sure if this happens in any other mode.

Kramerisgamer
07-01-2011, 09:36 AM
I notice that all of the time. I get so many free kills and I feel bad about it because they always think I guessed but they don't even know how.

PryingTuna85649
07-01-2011, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Crumplecorn:
I think if you are able to get close enough to touch someone, it makes sense that you are able to identify them.

I agree, but not in the case of this smoke bomb thing. If you lock someone in Assassinate and they haven't gone to where they are going and aren't in kill range of you, they usually run in the opposite direction. If you wait and let them come to you and they use the SB exploit, then they aren't being stealthy. If you have no idea who is coming or where they are coming from and they do it, I can see how that's a little different. And I do have to say if there's a tool available, regardless of if it's regarded cheap, it's fair game. Someone will use it and I don't think it's fair to report someone using the SB exploit (kinda like the Wanted blend group lock trick that has since been fixed). I do think something like lag switching needs reported, as that's messing with the system. But I don't think the SB exploit is really messing with the system, even though it is something that should be removed and I personally wouldn't use it.

Orobas88
07-01-2011, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Crumplecorn:
I think if you are able to get close enough to touch someone, it makes sense that you are able to identify them.

This is probably true, but I just think that smoke bomb doesn't need to counter morph and blender in addition to charge, mute, and other smoke bombs considering how ubiquitous it is and how quickly it cools down. I think it does enough without also nullifying blending.


Originally posted by Kramerisgamer:
At least the smoke exploit won't be in Revelations because of stunning npcs.

Ah, right. I forgot about this. This makes me feel a little better since I'm usually in a morphed group when I get smoked and pushed so the odds would be stacked against them.

obliviondoll
07-01-2011, 11:38 AM
Another flaw with the gentle push trick - if you're pushing NPCs into one another, they get stuck, and stop moving. Try and get NPCs bunched up and you can make yourself hard to pick out even to players using that trick.

BigBalledEagle
07-01-2011, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
Another flaw with the gentle push trick - if you're pushing NPCs into one another, they get stuck, and stop moving. Try and get NPCs bunched up and you can make yourself hard to pick out even to players using that trick.
Very good point. Since the smoke only lasts for 4 seconds (assuming Long Lasting), it can be quite difficult if the attacker has to sort through 5 or 6 potential targets to find the correct one. Sometimes, like you said, I will drop smoke, push the NPCs, and then mistakenly kill a civilian because other civilians were preventing me from pushing said civilian.

PryingTuna85649
07-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by BigBalledEagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
Another flaw with the gentle push trick - if you're pushing NPCs into one another, they get stuck, and stop moving. Try and get NPCs bunched up and you can make yourself hard to pick out even to players using that trick.
Very good point. Since the smoke only lasts for 4 seconds (assuming Long Lasting), it can be quite difficult if the attacker has to sort through 5 or 6 potential targets to find the correct one. Sometimes, like you said, I will drop smoke, push the NPCs, and then mistakenly kill a civilian because other civilians were preventing me from pushing said civilian. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had no idea about any of this. That short time away has made so many tricks develop that I had no idea about. Wow.

kushiel42
07-01-2011, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Dave0718:
I really like the fast paced exciting action of the multiplayer and don't want that to turn into everybody walking everywhere and standing near blend groups waiting for things to happen.

to me it sounds like a very boring game.

Yeah, because then Assassin's Creed would play like some kind of stealth game, which would be totally...wait, what?

Squiiddish
07-01-2011, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by kushiel42:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave0718:
I really like the fast paced exciting action of the multiplayer and don't want that to turn into everybody walking everywhere and standing near blend groups waiting for things to happen.

to me it sounds like a very boring game.

Yeah, because then Assassin's Creed would play like some kind of stealth game, which would be totally...wait, what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You sir, win the thread.

Dave0718
07-01-2011, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by kushiel42:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave0718:
I really like the fast paced exciting action of the multiplayer and don't want that to turn into everybody walking everywhere and standing near blend groups waiting for things to happen.

to me it sounds like a very boring game.

Yeah, because then Assassin's Creed would play like some kind of stealth game, which would be totally...wait, what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if stealth means walking everywhere and not taking advantage of the free running cept in chases,then yeah it does sound pretty boring.

awsmith2006
07-01-2011, 05:22 PM
If the line-of-sight is made to be unreliable, you're going to run into a lot of problems. Making a random delay would hinder the proper use of the line-of-sight, not just "screening."

If there must be a change, perhaps the compass should slowly fade into brightness (with consistency) when your target is in the line of sight. This will make screening more difficult and time consuming, and the "screener" more vulnerable.

As it is now, if I'm the one hiding, I like it when someone is "screening" me. It helps me identify my pursuer, giving me plenty of time to prepare my defense. I usually stun screeners, pure and simple.

PryingTuna85649
07-01-2011, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Dave0718:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kushiel42:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dave0718:
I really like the fast paced exciting action of the multiplayer and don't want that to turn into everybody walking everywhere and standing near blend groups waiting for things to happen.

to me it sounds like a very boring game.

Yeah, because then Assassin's Creed would play like some kind of stealth game, which would be totally...wait, what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if stealth means walking everywhere and not taking advantage of the free running cept in chases,then yeah it does sound pretty boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand this a little bit. I do think if you use a method to get to where you are going quickly (ie, running), there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when it's in front of other players. I'm not exactly sure of how the reverse detection meter is supposed to work, but if it would stop people from doing this stupid running to their target and locking on at the last moment thing, that would be great. Because running with the compass lit up means you are NOT incognito. Locking on at the last moment after running with the compass lit up and still getting incognito points is...well, an exploitation. It's not because that's the way the game is designed (and I do it too, though very poorly), but it's still not truly incognito and people get away with and fully rewarded for obvious behavior.

Going back to line of sight, this is also obvious behavior that gets rewarded. I ALWAYS spot people going around corners trying to figure out who I am if I'm in a blend group. It's EXTREMELY obvious. This does cause them to be more vulnerable, but they usually still seem to get rewarded. If I lock onto them, they either run or lock on everyone in sight until they get the "your target has exposed you" signal. If they run, a potential Target is gone. If they do the lock trick, they will play VERY offensively about getting the stun and then kill. This seems like an exploit, also, but again, it's in the game, so people are going to do it.

Squiiddish
07-01-2011, 11:43 PM
Poll update: Combined "yes" and "no" results are damn near even, at 23 yes to 20 no. Nearly all the responses are for "Yes- it will promote social stealth" and "No- it is an essential part of gameplay".

Archosakun
07-01-2011, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Squiiddish:
Poll update: Combined "yes" and "no" results are damn near even, at 23 yes to 20 no. Nearly all the responses are for "Yes- it will promote social stealth" and "No- it is an essential part of gameplay".

Got a bit confused by that. Thought yo had combined the Yes and No answers into one number. Forgot you had 4 options.
AHURDUR

kushiel42
07-05-2011, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Dave0718:if stealth means walking everywhere and not taking advantage of the free running cept in chases,then yeah it does sound pretty boring.

This would be a totally legit point about slowness equalling boringness, if AC:B was a game about running everywhere and accumulating the most kills. At least at the design phase, though, it doesn't seem that such was supposed to be the case with this game. And given how many games there are which do fulfill what you're looking for, I'd love for this game to actually be a stealth multiplayer game, which is what I thought I was getting when I bought it.


Originally posted by Squiiddish:
Poll update: Combined "yes" and "no" results are damn near even, at 23 yes to 20 no. Nearly all the responses are for "Yes- it will promote social stealth" and "No- it is an essential part of gameplay".

This stark division is why (as I suggested in the, uh, suggestions thread) I really think there should be separate modes which encourage freerunning and stealth. Not that it'll happen at this point, of course, and it'd just make the fracturing of the player base even worse, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Revelations.