Chaos Theory VS Conviction Argument

[Mattathias2009]

The exact same reasons why the majority of this forum hates Conviction are the exact same changes that occured from the original splinter cell to chaos theory. I have read countless posts littered with blind rancor and mindless catstigating. I am not talking about specific game elements but about a general game element: realism as well as general transition of games.

Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series. The game that only took away realism and added action to the series is the same game so many want to promote...Chaos Theory. Now I want to hear every possible refute to my position, but know that I am a huge fan of Splinter Cell series(all of the games including Chaos Theory). I am just saying this because I am tired of hearing these desultory arguments. I especially want to hear Shadow Fox's response to this.

[sikrob316]

it's nice to finally see someone bring this up.
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[Golden_Eye007]

+ 1 agree

don't forget that in Chaos Theory there is no surprise effect , if you kill a guard from the front before he reacts you will still get detected

[Falzar]

This post makes me feel a little awful and sad…how the fans of the series divided in two sides one that likes chaos theory and the other conviction... I am fan of splinter cell series no splinter cell 1, no Pandora tomorrow, no chaos theory, no double agent no conviction but all of them…and yes I like splinter cell conviction but before this I liked double agent and before this I liked chaos theory…etc…I know that Ubisoft could have done better things in conviction but the fact is I like it…sorry guys but that’s my opinion I am a fan of splinter cell series and for me to compare two games from the same series is a little weird…I think that we must send feedback about what things we liked or not and if ubisoft is a serious company will see our comments and make things better in splinter cell 6…

[NL.Edic]

When I opened this thread I thought "It's this thread again" but I see a few points I haven't seen before. But they still fall in one category: how do we make the game easy enough for 12yo's.

[stealth1276]

Well said TC. I say Conviction is immensly more fun to play over and over, that is Deniable Ops, while Chaos Theory was a better "Splinter Cell" game.

[mudsak]

So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series.


You believe CT to be EASIER than Conviction???? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

[eoj19]

everyone is entitled to their own opinion

Feel free to check out a topic that I thought a lot of gamers would be interested in, and is actually related to this topic: Gamers FORCED to kill?? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5271091065/m/3201001668/p/1)

I see no reason why can't Montreal combine 'thinking out of the box conviction' with A LOT MORE chaos theory concepts.

C'mon, I saw a user just post that a copy of conviction on amazon.com, BRAND NEW is $31.99 (or was it $34.99?)
GAMESTOP.COM is selling it NEW: $41.99, used $39.99

Chaos theory made more than 2 million on just xbox and PC.

Need I say anything else?

[FrankieSatt]

There is no argument. Chaos Theory is the bar at which every Splinter Cell game should be judged.

Conviction isn't even Splinter Cell.

Argument over.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by mudsak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series.


You believe CT to be EASIER than Conviction???? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I do. In chaos theory, I can sneak past everyone(the later levels get difficult especially bath house or whatever it's called) but if I look at it like I am trying to kill everyone(what Conviction points the gamer towards) then chaos theory is easier, because the guards are not aware of your presence.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by Golden_Eye007:
+ 1 agree

don't forget that in Chaos Theory there is no surprise effect , if you kill a guard from the front before he reacts you will still get detected

Haha! ya really...so I snuck up on you from the shadows and leaped out with my knife...you saw about half a second of me before I killed you...and in that time you somehow managed to call in an alarm that there was an intruder...and explain that it wasn't just some prank call again. I totally agree with you

[Noccifer]

OP, you seem to have ignored all the arguments Conviction lovers have LOST in the past. You know, all of them.

There were more vents than just the ones you used in Chaos Theory. And you think pipes didn't work in CT? In most Conviction maps there was ONE FREAKING PIPE THAT LED DIRECTLY TO THE OBJECTIVE. In CT, they were realistically placed and though sometimes they were more convenient than others, like leading to a higher level, they all made sense. And yes, there were pipes you couldn't climb.

Lighting? LOL! Conviction's Binary lighting system was a complete joke. There were no levels of visibility. Heck, if something happened to be just a little less illuminated than THE SUN you would count as hidden. Even high security facilities shut the lights at night.

Guard awareness? The point of Splinter Cell is to infiltrate unknown and exfiltrate unknown with the info. If every single guard knows your coming, THERE IS NO POINT! When you are doing your normal night round, you don't expect a techno ninja dressed in black to be hiding behind a bunch of crates! In real life, you wouldn't look there. In real life, you'd think a black shape in the corner is just a coat or a pile of stuff.

Don't kid yourself. Your angry because you wasted 60 bucks on a POS.

Stop trying to convince yourself you had fun.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by Noccifer:
OP, you seem to have ignored all the arguments Conviction lovers have LOST in the past. You know, all of them.

There were more vents than just the ones you used in Chaos Theory. And you think pipes didn't work in CT? In most Conviction maps there was ONE FREAKING PIPE THAT LED DIRECTLY TO THE OBJECTIVE. In CT, they were realistically placed and though sometimes they were more convenient than others, like leading to a higher level, they all made sense. And yes, there were pipes you couldn't climb.

Lighting? LOL! Conviction's Binary lighting system was a complete joke. There were no levels of visibility. Heck, if something happened to be just a little less illuminated than THE SUN you would count as hidden. Even high security facilities shut the lights at night.

Guard awareness? The point of Splinter Cell is to infiltrate unknown and exfiltrate unknown with the info. If every single guard knows your coming, THERE IS NO POINT! When you are doing your normal night round, you don't expect a techno ninja dressed in black to be hiding behind a bunch of crates! In real life, you wouldn't look there. In real life, you'd think a black shape in the corner is just a coat or a pile of stuff.

Don't kid yourself. Your angry because you wasted 60 bucks on a POS.

Stop trying to convince yourself you had fun.

I did not say that Conviction was realistic or better than Chaos Theory. I merely stated that the same changes that occurred from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory are the same changes that occurred from Chaos Theory to Conviction. The difference is that the majority of this forum adores Chaos theory for the changes(less realism and more, easier ways to kill people), but hates the changes for Conviction. And yes I enjoyed every single splinter cell game, and by my opinion I think Chaos Theory is a better "splinter cell" game than Conviction.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by Falzar:
This post makes me feel a little awful and sad…how the fans of the series divided in two sides one that likes chaos theory and the other conviction... I am fan of splinter cell series no splinter cell 1, no Pandora tomorrow, no chaos theory, no double agent no conviction but all of them…and yes I like splinter cell conviction but before this I liked double agent and before this I liked chaos theory…etc…I know that Ubisoft could have done better things in conviction but the fact is I like it…sorry guys but that’s my opinion I am a fan of splinter cell series and for me to compare two games from the same series is a little weird…I think that we must send feedback about what things we liked or not and if ubisoft is a serious company will see our comments and make things better in splinter cell 6…

How does it make you sad? If anything, it should make you happy. Maybe I didn't make my point clear but I like the original splinter cell the best. My primary goal in this discussion was to talk about comparing two different game transitions.

[eoj19]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:

Yes I do. In chaos theory, I can sneak past everyone(the later levels get difficult especially bath house or whatever it's called) but if I look at it like I am trying to kill everyone(what Conviction points the gamer towards) then chaos theory is easier, because the guards are not aware of your presence.

Which is easier: METHOD #1-- utilizing patience, LTL gadgets, and stealth to 'sneak' past guards (because even though you may have 'sneaked' your past stages, you did have to wait and time your moves...I have beaten the game more times than I can remember and I too have 'sneaked' through, but in order to have done so STEALTHILY, you HAVE to watch the guards' patterns, etc)

OR

METHOD #2-- just kill at will, which requires no waiting, no planning, just explosions, barrages of gun fire, and bashing heads when you feel like it.


Chaos is definitely not easier than Conviction. More 'action-oriented,' but definitely not as 'complexly, STEALTHILY CHALLENGING' as Chaos.

[Noccifer]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Noccifer:
OP, you seem to have ignored all the arguments Conviction lovers have LOST in the past. You know, all of them.

There were more vents than just the ones you used in Chaos Theory. And you think pipes didn't work in CT? In most Conviction maps there was ONE FREAKING PIPE THAT LED DIRECTLY TO THE OBJECTIVE. In CT, they were realistically placed and though sometimes they were more convenient than others, like leading to a higher level, they all made sense. And yes, there were pipes you couldn't climb.

Lighting? LOL! Conviction's Binary lighting system was a complete joke. There were no levels of visibility. Heck, if something happened to be just a little less illuminated than THE SUN you would count as hidden. Even high security facilities shut the lights at night.

Guard awareness? The point of Splinter Cell is to infiltrate unknown and exfiltrate unknown with the info. If every single guard knows your coming, THERE IS NO POINT! When you are doing your normal night round, you don't expect a techno ninja dressed in black to be hiding behind a bunch of crates! In real life, you wouldn't look there. In real life, you'd think a black shape in the corner is just a coat or a pile of stuff.

Don't kid yourself. Your angry because you wasted 60 bucks on a POS.

Stop trying to convince yourself you had fun.

I did not say that Conviction was realistic or better than Chaos Theory. I merely stated that the same changes that occurred from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory are the same changes that occurred from Chaos Theory to Conviction. The difference is that the majority of this forum adores Chaos theory for the changes(less realism and more, easier ways to kill people), but hates the changes for Conviction. And yes I enjoyed every single splinter cell game, and by my opinion I think Chaos Theory is a better "splinter cell" game than Conviction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think CT was easier than the original SC. It was just smoother all around. That tends to make past game flaws look like intended mechanics to add depth. And although the detection was indeed slightly odd, it didn't make it any less realistic.

What people hate is that Conviction is NOT a Splinter Cell game.

There is no "Cell", there is no "Splinter", (which ironically enough indicated the DA story as the perfect example of Cell Splintering) and there was no information to Spy for. It doesn't even play like one.

Why this thread?

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by eoj19:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:

Yes I do. In chaos theory, I can sneak past everyone(the later levels get difficult especially bath house or whatever it's called) but if I look at it like I am trying to kill everyone(what Conviction points the gamer towards) then chaos theory is easier, because the guards are not aware of your presence.

Which is easier: METHOD #1-- utilizing patience, LTL gadgets, and stealth to 'sneak' past guards (because even though you may have 'sneaked' your past stages, you did have to wait and time your moves...I have beaten the game more times than I can remember and I too have 'sneaked' through, but in order to have done so STEALTHILY, you HAVE to watch the guards' patterns, etc)

OR

METHOD #2-- just kill at will, which requires no waiting, no planning, just explosions, barrages of gun fire, and bashing heads when you feel like it.


Chaos is definitely not easier than Conviction. More 'action-oriented,' but definitely not as 'complexly, STEALTHILY CHALLENGING' as Chaos. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to look at it technically...chaos theory is definitely easier. It is easier to sneak past guards in chaos theory than in conviction. It is easier to stealth kill everyone in chaos theory than it is in conviction. as for total assault...they are about even because chaos theory gives you plenty of cool toys to use.

[NL.Edic]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
If you want to look at it technically...chaos theory is definitely easier. It is easier to sneak past guards in chaos theory than in conviction. It is easier to stealth kill everyone in chaos theory than it is in conviction. as for total assault...they are about even because chaos theory gives you plenty of cool toys to use.
You only make it SOUND easy. But if it actually was Conviction would be a stealth game.

[Mesotie]

Originally posted by Noccifer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Noccifer:
OP, you seem to have ignored all the arguments Conviction lovers have LOST in the past. You know, all of them.

There were more vents than just the ones you used in Chaos Theory. And you think pipes didn't work in CT? In most Conviction maps there was ONE FREAKING PIPE THAT LED DIRECTLY TO THE OBJECTIVE. In CT, they were realistically placed and though sometimes they were more convenient than others, like leading to a higher level, they all made sense. And yes, there were pipes you couldn't climb.

Lighting? LOL! Conviction's Binary lighting system was a complete joke. There were no levels of visibility. Heck, if something happened to be just a little less illuminated than THE SUN you would count as hidden. Even high security facilities shut the lights at night.

Guard awareness? The point of Splinter Cell is to infiltrate unknown and exfiltrate unknown with the info. If every single guard knows your coming, THERE IS NO POINT! When you are doing your normal night round, you don't expect a techno ninja dressed in black to be hiding behind a bunch of crates! In real life, you wouldn't look there. In real life, you'd think a black shape in the corner is just a coat or a pile of stuff.

Don't kid yourself. Your angry because you wasted 60 bucks on a POS.

Stop trying to convince yourself you had fun.

I did not say that Conviction was realistic or better than Chaos Theory. I merely stated that the same changes that occurred from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory are the same changes that occurred from Chaos Theory to Conviction. The difference is that the majority of this forum adores Chaos theory for the changes(less realism and more, easier ways to kill people), but hates the changes for Conviction. And yes I enjoyed every single splinter cell game, and by my opinion I think Chaos Theory is a better "splinter cell" game than Conviction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think CT was easier than the original SC. It was just smoother all around. That tends to make past game flaws look like intended mechanics to add depth. And although the detection was indeed slightly odd, it didn't make it any less realistic.

What people hate is that Conviction is NOT a Splinter Cell game.

There is no "Cell", there is no "Splinter", (which ironically enough indicated the DA story as the perfect example of Cell Splintering) and there was no information to Spy for. It doesn't even play like one.

Why this thread? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I agree with this. Don't try to "make" conviction seem good, by making CT seem the same.

I do, however, understand what your trying to get at, but the argument is flawed. You say a lot about realism (how CT had a lot of unrealistic stuff thrown in), yet the difference is that Chaos Theory was very fun and most people that enjoyed the game are still playing it to this day and probably will be for yet another 5 or even 10 years. Sure, Conviction defiantly has its fun moments, but the second that I beat the game I couldn't stand playing it anymore. It was really very strange, the game seemed to suck out its own life as I was playing it so that it was dead by the end.

A game can be as unrealistic as raining meatballs, but if the game is fun and enjoyable enough for people to be playing it in 10 more years, then WHO CARES.

Even the people that love Conviction probably won't be playing it in 10 years, or even 2. The game just doesn't have high replay quality. And its not that we hate it because of this, the only reason that people complain about Conviction is because their disappointed. We love Splinter Cell and Conviction just didn't help that love...instead it became that weird aunt that you really want to like (because she's family), yet you just can't, and for some reason she keeps giving you pink bunny pajamas and pink dresses despite you being a boy.
Conviction is in the family of Splinter Cell, yet it keeps giving us stuff we don't want, and so therefore we just can't stand going back to it.

In the end, a game isn't about realism or graphics or anything (though they add to its initial enjoyment), a game is about its enjoyment factor and the push of the game to keep you wanting to go back and back again to re-experience it.
That is why people still play and enjoy Chaos Theory and the first Half-Life and Starcraft and Zelda and Goldeneye and every other game out there that is still being played away on people's systems.

[Real720]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
The exact same reasons why the majority of this forum hates Conviction are the exact same changes that occured from the original splinter cell to chaos theory. I have read countless posts littered with blind rancor and mindless catstigating. I am not talking about specific game elements but about a general game element: realism as well as general transition of games.

Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series. The game that only took away realism and added action to the series is the same game so many want to promote...Chaos Theory. Now I want to hear every possible refute to my position, but know that I am a huge fan of Splinter Cell series(all of the games including Chaos Theory). I am just saying this because I am tired of hearing these desultory arguments. I especially want to hear Shadow Fox's response to this.
1. So basically, what you're saying is that mark and execute makes things harder? Holy crap!!! Oh, and let's not even talk about Conviction's recoil-free pistol.

2. "More easier" LMAO!!! Anyway, you can kill people with a GUN while hanging from a ledge in Conviction. Also, you can do all the other same **** in Conviction, but with MUCH more ease *cough* death from above indicator *cough*.

3. Watch "Harold and ***ar". As for the pipes, they are actually quite strong in real life...

4. Conviction's lighting system is worse, buddy. Can you say "binary lighting system"?

5. "Binary lighting system." Btw, they weren't alerted. They were suspicious.

Got any more?

[Datashocker]

Originally posted by Real720:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
The exact same reasons why the majority of this forum hates Conviction are the exact same changes that occured from the original splinter cell to chaos theory. I have read countless posts littered with blind rancor and mindless catstigating. I am not talking about specific game elements but about a general game element: realism as well as general transition of games.

Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series. The game that only took away realism and added action to the series is the same game so many want to promote...Chaos Theory. Now I want to hear every possible refute to my position, but know that I am a huge fan of Splinter Cell series(all of the games including Chaos Theory). I am just saying this because I am tired of hearing these desultory arguments. I especially want to hear Shadow Fox's response to this.
1. So basically, what you're saying is that mark and execute makes things harder? Holy crap!!! Oh, and let's not even talk about Conviction's recoil-free pistol.

2. "More easier" LMAO!!! Anyway, you can kill people with a GUN while hanging from a ledge in Conviction. Also, you can do all the other same **** in Conviction, but with MUCH more ease *cough* death from above indicator *cough*.

3. Watch "Harold and ***ar". As for the pipes, they are actually quite strong in real life...

4. Conviction's lighting system is worse, buddy. Can you say "binary lighting system"?

5. "Binary lighting system." Btw, they weren't alerted. They were suspicious.

Got any more? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously did not get what he was saying. He was comparing the first Splinter Cell, and Chaos Theory. Not Chaos Theory and Conviction. He was saying that the changes made from Splinter Cell, to Chaos Theory, were similar to the ones made from Chaos Theory to Conviction.

[Joshua Morrison]

This thread is ridiculous to start. Its pathetic that you claim these "problems" make CT less realistic yet they are emphasized and blown way out of proportion in Convictions. The game goes far beyond what is believable. I know that line is different depending what you know about any given subject. So for one climbing in a vent seem plausible but for another you realize that it wouldn't work because of knowledge you have. Now an EMP packpack... I'm sorry but who ever came up with that didn't even try to research, and thats the problem I don't have to know anything about EMPs but I can look at that and say it's not possible. Guess what I did some research and it's not big surprise.

The problem is that Convictions is so far beyond believability I might as well justify how gears could happen because of pollution. Also I think we need to drop all this hate toward CT. I don't care if you like it or not without CT, Convictions would still be a disgraces to the series .

Also the whole point in a sequel is to improve on the original concept. So all these "problems" in CT should of been fixed, but Convictions chose to makes it's own problems and ignore the franchise in just about every way possible. People couldn't complain if Ubisoft did a good job and kept the things that worked and made people love CT.

[Real720]

Originally posted by Datashocker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Real720:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
The exact same reasons why the majority of this forum hates Conviction are the exact same changes that occured from the original splinter cell to chaos theory. I have read countless posts littered with blind rancor and mindless catstigating. I am not talking about specific game elements but about a general game element: realism as well as general transition of games.

Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series. The game that only took away realism and added action to the series is the same game so many want to promote...Chaos Theory. Now I want to hear every possible refute to my position, but know that I am a huge fan of Splinter Cell series(all of the games including Chaos Theory). I am just saying this because I am tired of hearing these desultory arguments. I especially want to hear Shadow Fox's response to this.
1. So basically, what you're saying is that mark and execute makes things harder? Holy crap!!! Oh, and let's not even talk about Conviction's recoil-free pistol.

2. "More easier" LMAO!!! Anyway, you can kill people with a GUN while hanging from a ledge in Conviction. Also, you can do all the other same **** in Conviction, but with MUCH more ease *cough* death from above indicator *cough*.

3. Watch "Harold and ***ar". As for the pipes, they are actually quite strong in real life...

4. Conviction's lighting system is worse, buddy. Can you say "binary lighting system"?

5. "Binary lighting system." Btw, they weren't alerted. They were suspicious.

Got any more? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously did not get what he was saying. He was comparing the first Splinter Cell, and Chaos Theory. Not Chaos Theory and Conviction. He was saying that the changes made from Splinter Cell, to Chaos Theory, were similar to the ones made from Chaos Theory to Conviction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, I just read the topic, not the body. Whatever...

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by Datashocker:
You obviously did not get what he was saying. He was comparing the first Splinter Cell, and Chaos Theory. Not Chaos Theory and Conviction. He was saying that the changes made from Splinter Cell, to Chaos Theory, were similar to the ones made from Chaos Theory to Conviction.

No he is clearly saying that you can't complain about Convictions if you like CT. Also saying CT is easier than SCC shows the OP isn't.... doesn't....hasn't played enough...no... is confusing them with different games.... no hold on..... never mind I can't think of a nice way to put it. Has he tried CT on hard wtf, SCC on realistic is easier than halo on heroic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Halo harder then Splinter Cell... I hate you Ubisoft.

[Datashocker]

Originally posted by JoshuaMorrison:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Datashocker:
You obviously did not get what he was saying. He was comparing the first Splinter Cell, and Chaos Theory. Not Chaos Theory and Conviction. He was saying that the changes made from Splinter Cell, to Chaos Theory, were similar to the ones made from Chaos Theory to Conviction.



No he is clearly saying that you can't complain about Convictions if you like CT. Also saying CT is easier than SCC shows the OP isn't.... doesn't....hasn't played enough...no... is confusing them with different games.... no hold on..... never mind I can't think of a nice way to put it. Has he tried CT on hard wtf, SCC on realistic is easier than halo on heroic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Halo harder then Splinter Cell... I hate you Ubisoft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your train of thought got seriously derailed. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.


Originally posted by Real720:

Oh, I just read the topic, not the body. Whatever...

No problem, just pointing that out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by Datashocker:

Your train of thought got seriously derailed. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.


At least I addressed your post...I was trying to avoid calling the OP ignorant.

Sidenote I don't smoke anything... maybe one of the reasons I'm logical enough/smart enough to argue around here without throwing out fallacies left and right.

[Datashocker]

Originally posted by JoshuaMorrison:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Datashocker:

Your train of thought got seriously derailed. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.


At least I addressed your post...I was trying to avoid calling the OP ignorant.

Sidenote I don't smoke anything... maybe one of the reasons I'm logical enough/smart enough to argue around here without throwing out fallacies left and right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a joke, I'm sorry if it came out sounding rude, I was just amused by the way you danced around the option of calling him ignorant, and a few lines later, ended by saying that you hate Ubisoft. Sorry for any confusion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

[stavros_27]

Also I think we need to drop all this hate toward CT.

So we have your permission to criticize Conviction(s) because you are not a fan of the game, but nobody can say anything bad about Chaos Theory(s) because you are a fan of that game?

[coltcat]

Originally posted by mudsak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series.


You believe CT to be EASIER than Conviction???? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMO CT is more EASIER to play stealth than C
remain quiet and you will get through the area well. getting seen will likely get you kill. while in C you basically can gunfighting everybody but you just CAN'T avoid to engage

90% of time in C you have tons of guards are blocking the road , leave you no option but to shoot everybody in the face. theres simply no way has been design to let you stealth pass the area. Devs dont even think about putting one in there. sure we've seen some pro gamer able to stealth through some nasty situation in C. but thats just seems like use the flaws of AI and level design. feel like you are trying to avoid killing or getting seen in a shooter game. it will be hard as hell and the fun and accessibility dont even comes close to what we get when we wants to play stealth in previous games

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

Nothing to be said about the gun mechanics, although being able to headshot all guards so easily makes it distinctly less challenging.


2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

I guess you missed the occasions in the game where there ARE limits on killing. And while CT was an extension of the capabilities of Sam in SAR, Conviction just makes it all TOO easy by being able to grab anyone, from any angle at a distance of about 6ft.


3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another

Like in Third Echelon?


not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter.

There is absolutely nothing ridiculous or unbelievable about crawl spaces. How the team inserted these fittingly into a level doesn't bother me. When it comes to situations like this, disbelief is easy left at the door because it is not in anyway seriously violating realism - as opposed to crashing a helicopter through a steel reinforced roof and still walking away without a scratch.


Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

LOL

Are you ACTUALLY making this point in FAVOR of Conviction?

Play Whitebox again for yourself and take note of the pipes. Their location, design, placement, shape and integration into the level is so outlandishly ******ed that it's quite unimmersive.

And I don't see your point about climbing pipes being unrealistic. I've done it before and as long as the builder did his job right, you're sorted.


4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

You can't bash a game for technical limitations. Back in the times of the original SCs the lighting was cutting edge.

There were always situations where lighting sources and shadow placement collided, but it wasn't a bit deal.

Still, however faulted the CT system is, the binary system of Conviction is infinitely more flawed. In fact it is beyond that, because there are times when you are totally immersed in shadow and there is not even a hint of visibility reduction because the system does not take note of it.

Also, have you looked at any of the maps in Conviction? They're all the same. Pitch black and overly shadowed. It's called stylisation and it is required for L&S gameplay.


5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

This has been brought up several times when people talk about the older games and they use this argument as if Conviction had solved the issue. It clearly hasn't.

This is a simple side effect of L&S gaming. At one stage you are in an area so dark that the visibility scale goes to zero. It is in every L&S game and always will be.

Also, when you hear a suspicous noise and you are going to investigate, what would you do? Bolt straight in making lots of noise and completely giving your position away or approach it carefully and cautiously as you attempt to investigate what the situation is?

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by stavros_27:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also I think we need to drop all this hate toward CT.

So we have your permission to criticize Conviction(s) because you are not a fan of the game, but nobody can say anything bad about Chaos Theory(s) because you are a fan of that game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No that is not what I'm saying I'm stating that people use CT short comings to justify SCC. CT is a older game and it is unfair to say well CT didn't have it so who cares? On the other hand it is perfectly logical to say SCC doesn't have something and it is a problem. The reasoning being SCC is a newer game and a supposed sequel.

It's not fair to say the AI wasn't really that great in CT... so you can't complain that AI sucks in SCC... because yes we can it is a sequel and was made many years later. Convictions won't stand the test of time the unreal engine makes it look dated right out of the box. This is another good example CT's used unreal as well but at the time is was just as impressive as anything else.

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by Datashocker:
It was a joke, I'm sorry if it came out sounding rude, I was just amused by the way you danced around the option of calling him ignorant, and a few lines later, ended by saying that you hate Ubisoft. Sorry for any confusion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Sorry if I sounded like a ******. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I have just read some stupid post... not that I'm the best poster I hardly reread post and have quite the amount of typos. It is just a forum.

[Dread_stunlock]

Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
There is no argument. Chaos Theory is the bar at which every Splinter Cell game should be judged.

Conviction isn't even Splinter Cell.

Argument over.

Conviction is Splinter Cell, Look at the goggles, look at the name on the package http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[FrankieSatt]

Originally posted by Dread_stunlock:
Conviction is Splinter Cell, Look at the goggles, look at the name on the package http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MW2 had goggles and I could splap the Splinter Cell name on that package but that doesn't make it a Splinter Cell game.

[Dr__Cube]

You're reaching, Mattathias2009. In fact I don't think any of your assertions are right. CT doesn't have easy gunplay. Maybe the expanded inventory somehow gave you impression that action became easy or easier in CT but it did not. You still die very quickly in a stand up firefight in CT, especially against a squad. In Conviction you can routinely engage in long firefights with squad after squad of soldiers/mercs and getaway with it. CT does NOT have regen health, unlimited pistol ammo, or an autoaim/autokill button (i.e. Mark & Execute).

As for your comment about lighting? I find it inane. The lighting was perfect in CT. There were pitch black areas for a reason. Why? So you would learn to use your tools (nightvision and infrared) against the enemy or so you could sneak by. This is a stealth game after all. There were plenty of lit offices and hallways. The less obvious routes were in the darkness. It was all setup that way to give you options: ghost your way through or clean the whole level out. Same goes for your "unrealistic environment" comment. It was careful level design and gameplay balance allowing for choice you git. Conviction is nowhere near as deep or creative in its level design because of the action centric gameplay it is based upon.

[mudsak]

This probably one of the most ridiculous threads I've seen on this forum since arriving. The arguments presented by the OP in this thread have about as much to stand on as a house of cards. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and I can respect that, but these arguments are such a stretch for so many reasons...Reasons that many other fellow users of this forum are clearly pointing out.

There is very little argument that Chaos Theory set the bar as the best Splinter Cell to date. Realism, immersion, gameplay mechanics, the list could go on. This was done even considering that Chaos Theory was created on a system FAR less powerful then the current gen systems. There is no Chaos Theory vs. Conviction argument.

[insanity76]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

But you at least you still had to aim in CT.


2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

More options, but the option still remained to not kill or even engage or alert anyone except the 3 objective kills & 2 objective KO's (3 if you want the secondary objective on the Penthouse). And for the record there were as many no kill missions in CT as there were in the original. The only limit restrictions that were taken away were the limit on civilian kills, which you'd only end up with an automatic 0% mission score opposed to getting a mission fail if you popped too many civvies.


3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

Bringing up pipes when defending Conviction .. seriously? Conviction has more pipes than Super Mario Bros.


4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

Being as the the game is built around being a ghost, so were the level designs .. for gameplay purposes.


5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

The higher their alert level, the more aggressive they are. On a 4 level alarm alert, they hear a noise, they immediately take cover & start shooting. And on lower alert levels, they's moving slowly & cautiously to, ohhh I dunno, not give away their position to any potential threat they're investigating? Unlike the Conviction idiots who stand out in the open yelling constantly to guarantee giving away where they are to the threat they cannot see but know is in the vicinity.

[icenutzz]

All videos games are unrealistic so items like convenient air ducks, unrealistic AI moments, etc are all part of it so it comes down to the challenge a game places on you.

As the previous games Conviction has it's own stupid moments of unreaism. But no one can argue that Conviction just isn't Splinter Cell as we have known them to be no matter how you want to criticism their flaws.

[Falzar]

First there is not a game that is 100% realistic because is a GAME….but in splinter cell the story is realistic (biological threats, threats for war, corrupted politicians etc),the character is realistic, the most of weapons are real, some of gameplay has realistic elements but it is also a game so to have unrealistic times is very reasonable…so in general splinter cell series has realistic elements and that is why I like it….

[mudsak]

Bringing up pipes when defending Conviction .. seriously? Conviction has more pipes than Super Mario Bros.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by icenutzz:
All videos games are unrealistic so items like convenient air ducks, unrealistic AI moments, etc are all part of it so it comes down to the challenge a game places on you.

As the previous games Conviction has it's own stupid moments of unreaism. But no one can argue that Conviction just isn't Splinter Cell as we have known them to be no matter how you want to criticism their flaws.

Saying Convictions is a Splinter Cell game is just foolish. Sam isn't a Splinter Cell and nothing about this game relates to the original 3. No sneaking suit, no working for the government, the whole military thing is gone... as for the realism argument.... how is it fair that on a scale of one to ten 1 being simulation and 10 being sci-fi, that just because a CT wasn't a 1 it was maybe a 3 or 4.. now SCC is a 5 or 6 so everyone is like o well. That is stupid, you can just say well a game can't be a 1 thats boring and too realistic but when a game is a 7 or 8, you argue that no game can be realistic. People keep say you can't have a realistic game no one cares if is a 1 but why the **** is Splinter Cell above a 5.

[newhenpal]

Yes, CT did ask the player to suspend their disbelief more than SAR did. But this didn't happen often and when it did it wasn't unbelievably absurd and the pay off was usually good. And at the end of the day, CT was a Splinter Cell game through and through.

Vents that are just big enough for Sam to fit in? Branching level design.

Suspension of disbelief in Conviction required the player to turn a blind eye toward glaring problems so that they are left with an empty experience instead of an "Are these guys for real?" feeling.

The lousy writing that saw Sarah return from the grave? Err...the screen being graced with her presence for 10 whole seconds before vanishing suddenly, leaving Sam the same uninteresting grouch he was in the beginning.

[Mattathias2009]

I don't think CT was easier than the original SC. It was just smoother all around. That tends to make past game flaws look like intended mechanics to add depth. And although the detection was indeed slightly odd, it didn't make it any less realistic.

What people hate is that Conviction is NOT a Splinter Cell game.

There is no "Cell", there is no "Splinter", (which ironically enough indicated the DA story as the perfect example of Cell Splintering) and there was no information to Spy for. It doesn't even play like one.

Why this thread?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree with this. Don't try to "make" conviction seem good, by making CT seem the same.

I do, however, understand what your trying to get at, but the argument is flawed. You say a lot about realism (how CT had a lot of unrealistic stuff thrown in), yet the difference is that Chaos Theory was very fun and most people that enjoyed the game are still playing it to this day and probably will be for yet another 5 or even 10 years. Sure, Conviction defiantly has its fun moments, but the second that I beat the game I couldn't stand playing it anymore. It was really very strange, the game seemed to suck out its own life as I was playing it so that it was dead by the end.

A game can be as unrealistic as raining meatballs, but if the game is fun and enjoyable enough for people to be playing it in 10 more years, then WHO CARES.

Even the people that love Conviction probably won't be playing it in 10 years, or even 2. The game just doesn't have high replay quality. And its not that we hate it because of this, the only reason that people complain about Conviction is because their disappointed. We love Splinter Cell and Conviction just didn't help that love...instead it became that weird aunt that you really want to like (because she's family), yet you just can't, and for some reason she keeps giving you pink bunny pajamas and pink dresses despite you being a boy.
Conviction is in the family of Splinter Cell, yet it keeps giving us stuff we don't want, and so therefore we just can't stand going back to it.

In the end, a game isn't about realism or graphics or anything (though they add to its initial enjoyment), a game is about its enjoyment factor and the push of the game to keep you wanting to go back and back again to re-experience it.
That is why people still play and enjoy Chaos Theory and the first Half-Life and Starcraft and Zelda and Goldeneye and every other game out there that is still being played away on people's systems.[/QUOTE]


I see what you are saying, but like mine...your argument is flawed. I am trying to stick to aspects that are as close as possible to being facts. You are throwing pure opinions at me. Your opinion isn't wrong but it only speaks for yourself. There are many that like Conviction a lot more that Chaos Theory and many that like Chaos Theory more than Conviction(like me). I need things closer to facts.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by Real720:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
The exact same reasons why the majority of this forum hates Conviction are the exact same changes that occured from the original splinter cell to chaos theory. I have read countless posts littered with blind rancor and mindless catstigating. I am not talking about specific game elements but about a general game element: realism as well as general transition of games.

Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

So many bash Conviction for the same reasons they adore Chaos Theory...without a doubt the easiest Splinter Cell game in the series. The game that only took away realism and added action to the series is the same game so many want to promote...Chaos Theory. Now I want to hear every possible refute to my position, but know that I am a huge fan of Splinter Cell series(all of the games including Chaos Theory). I am just saying this because I am tired of hearing these desultory arguments. I especially want to hear Shadow Fox's response to this.
1. So basically, what you're saying is that mark and execute makes things harder? Holy crap!!! Oh, and let's not even talk about Conviction's recoil-free pistol.

2. "More easier" LMAO!!! Anyway, you can kill people with a GUN while hanging from a ledge in Conviction. Also, you can do all the other same **** in Conviction, but with MUCH more ease *cough* death from above indicator *cough*.

3. Watch "Harold and ***ar". As for the pipes, they are actually quite strong in real life...

4. Conviction's lighting system is worse, buddy. Can you say "binary lighting system"?

5. "Binary lighting system." Btw, they weren't alerted. They were suspicious.

Got any more? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one seems to understand. I am not comparing the two games. They are very different and Chaos Theory is more realistic than Conviction. The guards are better in this game as far as fighting goes though. I am comparing the trends of change.

I am saying that the same thing that happened from Chaos Theory to Conviction is the same thing that happened from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory.

And grammer...I wrote more easier ways to kill blah blah blah. You would read it as if there was a comma between "more" and "eaiser". That comma is only optional. You though I was using more to describe ways. More is describing ways and easier is also describing ways. I say that there are more ways to kill and there are easier ways to kill. There's your grammer lesson. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by JoshuaMorrison:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Datashocker:
You obviously did not get what he was saying. He was comparing the first Splinter Cell, and Chaos Theory. Not Chaos Theory and Conviction. He was saying that the changes made from Splinter Cell, to Chaos Theory, were similar to the ones made from Chaos Theory to Conviction.

No he is clearly saying that you can't complain about Convictions if you like CT. Also saying CT is easier than SCC shows the OP isn't.... doesn't....hasn't played enough...no... is confusing them with different games.... no hold on..... never mind I can't think of a nice way to put it. Has he tried CT on hard wtf, SCC on realistic is easier than halo on heroic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Halo harder then Splinter Cell... I hate you Ubisoft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Datashocker is exactly right. Don't take my words and form them into what you want. the examples I used were to prove to you the changes that occured. Thank you Datashocker for clearing that up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

Nothing to be said about the gun mechanics, although being able to headshot all guards so easily makes it distinctly less challenging.


2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

I guess you missed the occasions in the game where there ARE limits on killing. And while CT was an extension of the capabilities of Sam in SAR, Conviction just makes it all TOO easy by being able to grab anyone, from any angle at a distance of about 6ft.


3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another

Like in Third Echelon?


not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter.

There is absolutely nothing ridiculous or unbelievable about crawl spaces. How the team inserted these fittingly into a level doesn't bother me. When it comes to situations like this, disbelief is easy left at the door because it is not in anyway seriously violating realism - as opposed to crashing a helicopter through a steel reinforced roof and still walking away without a scratch.


Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

LOL

Are you ACTUALLY making this point in FAVOR of Conviction?

Play Whitebox again for yourself and take note of the pipes. Their location, design, placement, shape and integration into the level is so outlandishly ******ed that it's quite unimmersive.

And I don't see your point about climbing pipes being unrealistic. I've done it before and as long as the builder did his job right, you're sorted.


4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

You can't bash a game for technical limitations. Back in the times of the original SCs the lighting was cutting edge.

There were always situations where lighting sources and shadow placement collided, but it wasn't a bit deal.

Still, however faulted the CT system is, the binary system of Conviction is infinitely more flawed. In fact it is beyond that, because there are times when you are totally immersed in shadow and there is not even a hint of visibility reduction because the system does not take note of it.

Also, have you looked at any of the maps in Conviction? They're all the same. Pitch black and overly shadowed. It's called stylisation and it is required for L&S gameplay.


5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

This has been brought up several times when people talk about the older games and they use this argument as if Conviction had solved the issue. It clearly hasn't.

This is a simple side effect of L&S gaming. At one stage you are in an area so dark that the visibility scale goes to zero. It is in every L&S game and always will be.

Also, when you hear a suspicous noise and you are going to investigate, what would you do? Bolt straight in making lots of noise and completely giving your position away or approach it carefully and cautiously as you attempt to investigate what the situation is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again another person does not understand my post. I am not saying that Conviction is more realistic than CT, because it isn't. Overall, there is no question about it. Just like Datashocker said, I am comparing the changes from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory and the changes from Chaos Theory to Conviction. I am looking at the changes in general terms and I see that they are the exact same(generally).

[I_Redemptionx_I]

A game can be as unrealistic as raining meatballs, but if the game is fun and enjoyable enough for people to be playing it in 10 more years, then WHO CARES.

THIS IS A TOM CLANCY GAME. Realism, MATTERS. If you don't want a realistic game with a plausible storyline - fine. But don't come into a Tom Clancey game and try to twist it into some lame hollywood movie because it makes you feel "SUPER SEXY AND BAD ***"

And really? Four (edit: ..six...) posts in a row...?)

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by Dr__Cube:
You're reaching, Mattathias2009. In fact I don't think any of your assertions are right. CT doesn't have easy gunplay. Maybe the expanded inventory somehow gave you impression that action became easy or easier in CT but it did not. You still die very quickly in a stand up firefight in CT, especially against a squad. In Conviction you can routinely engage in long firefights with squad after squad of soldiers/mercs and getaway with it. CT does NOT have regen health, unlimited pistol ammo, or an autoaim/autokill button (i.e. Mark & Execute).

As for your comment about lighting? I find it inane. The lighting was perfect in CT. There were pitch black areas for a reason. Why? So you would learn to use your tools (nightvision and infrared) against the enemy or so you could sneak by. This is a stealth game after all. There were plenty of lit offices and hallways. The less obvious routes were in the darkness. It was all setup that way to give you options: ghost your way through or clean the whole level out. Same goes for your "unrealistic environment" comment. It was careful level design and gameplay balance allowing for choice you git. Conviction is nowhere near as deep or creative in its level design because of the action centric gameplay it is based upon.

The lighting visuals looked great, but they were unrealistic. Places where you were in complete darkness shouldn't be complete darkness. Again I am not saying Conviction is more realistic than Chaos theory. The lighting got more unrealistic from Splinter Cell to Chaos theory just as the lighting got worse from Chaos Theory to Conviction. This is the thought process I am talking about. There is a trend with multiple different aspects of the game. That is what this forum is about.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by mudsak:
This probably one of the most ridiculous threads I've seen on this forum since arriving. The arguments presented by the OP in this thread have about as much to stand on as a house of cards. We're all entitled to our own opinions, and I can respect that, but these arguments are such a stretch for so many reasons...Reasons that many other fellow users of this forum are clearly pointing out.

There is very little argument that Chaos Theory set the bar as the best Splinter Cell to date. Realism, immersion, gameplay mechanics, the list could go on. This was done even considering that Chaos Theory was created on a system FAR less powerful then the current gen systems. There is no Chaos Theory vs. Conviction argument.

Why don't you actually read what I wrote. I am tired of explaining this.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by insanity76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
Many people hate Conviction because of how unrealistic it is. The only additions from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory were:

1)easier gun mechanics

But you at least you still had to aim in CT.


2)more easier ways to kill enemies(pipes, CQC from any angle, ledges, equipment, no limits on killing, etc)

More options, but the option still remained to not kill or even engage or alert anyone except the 3 objective kills & 2 objective KO's (3 if you want the secondary objective on the Penthouse). And for the record there were as many no kill missions in CT as there were in the original. The only limit restrictions that were taken away were the limit on civilian kills, which you'd only end up with an automatic 0% mission score opposed to getting a mission fail if you popped too many civvies.


3)more unrealistic environments -- this one is the worst -- vents so conveniently placed to go from one objective to another, not even mentioning the chances of a vent that can support a human and fit one at that matter. Pipes that don't even make sense to be in their particular location let alone be large enough and strong enough to support human weight. Go out in the real world and try to find these things...seriously!

Bringing up pipes when defending Conviction .. seriously? Conviction has more pipes than Super Mario Bros.


4)Lighting was extrememly unrealistic! You could be mere feet from a light source and be completely invisible. Look at the lighting on any of the maps in Chaos Theory...supposedly high security places, but they have so many pitch black places already.

Being as the the game is built around being a ghost, so were the level designs .. for gameplay purposes.


5) Guard awareness was horrible. You could be practically holding hands with a guard and be completely safe. Worst of all...when they were alerted the game took away the one thing that should be a weakness for the spy -- speed. The guards creep at a pace that makes turtles look fast when they think something is wrong. So now you can easily go around them to do whatever you feel like. They should move around quickly to make it so you can't easily outmanuver the guards.

The higher their alert level, the more aggressive they are. On a 4 level alarm alert, they hear a noise, they immediately take cover & start shooting. And on lower alert levels, they's moving slowly & cautiously to, ohhh I dunno, not give away their position to any potential threat they're investigating? Unlike the Conviction idiots who stand out in the open yelling constantly to guarantee giving away where they are to the threat they cannot see but know is in the vicinity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not comparing the games. I am comparing the transitions from the perspective games and their predescosors. Once again, read what I wrote.

[I_Redemptionx_I]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dr__Cube:
You're reaching, Mattathias2009. In fact I don't think any of your assertions are right. CT doesn't have easy gunplay. Maybe the expanded inventory somehow gave you impression that action became easy or easier in CT but it did not. You still die very quickly in a stand up firefight in CT, especially against a squad. In Conviction you can routinely engage in long firefights with squad after squad of soldiers/mercs and getaway with it. CT does NOT have regen health, unlimited pistol ammo, or an autoaim/autokill button (i.e. Mark & Execute).

As for your comment about lighting? I find it inane. The lighting was perfect in CT. There were pitch black areas for a reason. Why? So you would learn to use your tools (nightvision and infrared) against the enemy or so you could sneak by. This is a stealth game after all. There were plenty of lit offices and hallways. The less obvious routes were in the darkness. It was all setup that way to give you options: ghost your way through or clean the whole level out. Same goes for your "unrealistic environment" comment. It was careful level design and gameplay balance allowing for choice you git. Conviction is nowhere near as deep or creative in its level design because of the action centric gameplay it is based upon.

The lighting visuals looked great, but they were unrealistic. Places where you were in complete darkness shouldn't be complete darkness. Again I am not saying Conviction is more realistic than Chaos theory. The lighting got more unrealistic from Splinter Cell to Chaos theory just as the lighting got worse from Chaos Theory to Conviction. This is the thought process I am talking about. There is a trend with multiple different aspects of the game. That is what this forum is about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Care to post/prove/exemplify how it got more worse from the original to Chaos Theory?

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
Again another person does not understand my post. I am not saying that Conviction is more realistic than CT, because it isn't. Overall, there is no question about it. Just like Datashocker said, I am comparing the changes from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory and the changes from Chaos Theory to Conviction. I am looking at the changes in general terms and I see that they are the exact same(generally).

Your post is not as clear as you think it is, which is fairly evident from the manner in which everyone responded.

You start of my talking about the evolution from SAR to CT being the same as CT to Conv, but then you don't give any examples. You just state scenarios that we see in CT that seem unrealistic to you.

The only valid point you have is regarding the increased CQC capabilities, which tbh isn't really true because alot of the CQC capabilities were taken out from CT, like LTL, inverted pipe grabs, snatching through surfaces, water grabbing and so on...

I can't see any relevance to the pipes scenario when comparing SAR to CT, so that point is moot. The pipe placement isn't noticeably out of place in either game. in either game.

Lighting is LESS realistic in CT you're saying? You have to be joking when you say that. Surely you must mean that the lighting got MORE realistic when it moved from CT from SAR? Because if you're saying otherwise then I'll think you're just batty. Just look at the CIA level or the vending machines in SAR. Both cover the points you've brought up about SAR and were improved upon in CT, yet in Conviction the binary shadows make sure this dept took a nose dive aswell.

Guard awareness got much better in CT than from SAR, yet took a nosedive in Conv.

So your post really is all over the place, and by making the points you did you seemed to be veering off your original point.

[swn32]

I agree with the OP to some extent. Transitions from CT to C is similar to transitions from SAR to CT. But CT only added to SAR and thus enhanced the gameplay. C took away so much that i loved about the franchise and thats why i hate it. Also CT struck a near perfect balance between stealth and action, where as Conviction destroyed that balance.

[insanity76]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
I am comparing the changes from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory and the changes from Chaos Theory to Conviction. I am looking at the changes in general terms and I see that they are the exact same(generally).

In general terms, the changes are nothing the same.

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory took the core values and features of the franchise and expanded on them. Conviction took the core values and features of the Splinter Cell franchise that Chaos Theory expanded on and either watered them down or tossed them altogether.

[NL.Edic]

The worst is yet to come I think, people who are more in to action gameplay still think Splinter Cell is a stealth game. So they don't buy it, while people who want a stealth game don't buy it either.

Next SC game will be a follow up with the same style to Conviction but the game will be promoted more so people who want an action game are aware of the change in the gameplay in the new Splinter Cell.

The game might as well sell more once everyone is aware how badass action game Splinter Cell has become now, it just needs more promotion towards the group of players Ubisoft is heading at.

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by NL.Edic:
The worst is yet to come I think, people who are more in to action gameplay still think Splinter Cell is a stealth game. So they don't buy it, while people who want a stealth game don't buy it either.

Next SC game will be a follow up with the same style to Conviction but the game will be promoted more so people who want an action game are aware of the change in the gameplay in the new Splinter Cell.

The game might as well sell more once everyone is aware how badass action game Splinter Cell has become now, it just needs more promotion towards the group of players Ubisoft is heading at.
Lol it wasn't promoted as a stealth game at all and almost everyone I talk to about it, that had never played Splinter Cell said it was crappy/boring or to easy. I heard that that it was too unrealistic one of my art teachers said that she didn't like in the demo how the guy didn't die when his head was smashed through a toilet. She said her husband thought the demo was so bad he didn't finish it..... this is coming from people who have never played Splinter Cell.

The game just wasn't up to par with todays video games. Adding more action isn't going to pull more people in Splinter Cell is known for other things and will never stand a chance against big name titles. If they want an action JB game they will have to start a new franchize.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
Again another person does not understand my post. I am not saying that Conviction is more realistic than CT, because it isn't. Overall, there is no question about it. Just like Datashocker said, I am comparing the changes from Splinter Cell to Chaos Theory and the changes from Chaos Theory to Conviction. I am looking at the changes in general terms and I see that they are the exact same(generally).

Your post is not as clear as you think it is, which is fairly evident from the manner in which everyone responded.

You start of my talking about the evolution from SAR to CT being the same as CT to Conv, but then you don't give any examples. You just state scenarios that we see in CT that seem unrealistic to you.

The only valid point you have is regarding the increased CQC capabilities, which tbh isn't really true because alot of the CQC capabilities were taken out from CT, like LTL, inverted pipe grabs, snatching through surfaces, water grabbing and so on...

I can't see any relevance to the pipes scenario when comparing SAR to CT, so that point is moot. The pipe placement isn't noticeably out of place in either game. in either game.

Lighting is LESS realistic in CT you're saying? You have to be joking when you say that. Surely you must mean that the lighting got MORE realistic when it moved from CT from SAR? Because if you're saying otherwise then I'll think you're just batty. Just look at the CIA level or the vending machines in SAR. Both cover the points you've brought up about SAR and were improved upon in CT, yet in Conviction the binary shadows make sure this dept took a nose dive aswell.

Guard awareness got much better in CT than from SAR, yet took a nosedive in Conv.

So your post really is all over the place, and by making the points you did you seemed to be veering off your original point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right in saying that I did not talk use examples from Chaos Theory to Conviction. I didn't because this forum is littered with them. I only gave general examples for the transition from CT to Conviction. One example would be more ways to kill like M&E. I am sure you can list a dozen.

The lighting LOOKS more realistic in CT when compared to SAR, but the BRIGHTNESS of these lights in CT are not as realistic in their perspective locations as they are in SAR. There are simply too many completely dark places in CT. I totally agree with the binary crap in Conviction. I am just stating that standing right next to a guard in supposedly complete darkness isn't very realistic either. But I agree with you. The guards have better hearing and somewhat better sight, but come one...you shouldn't be able to stand right next to a guard and them not see you! I did however adore the shadow recognition(I think it was on the ship mission...idk).

[FilipinoNinja67]

Originally posted by Falzar:
This post makes me feel a little awful and sad…how the fans of the series divided in two sides one that likes chaos theory and the other conviction... I am fan of splinter cell series no splinter cell 1, no Pandora tomorrow, no chaos theory, no double agent no conviction but all of them…and yes I like splinter cell conviction but before this I liked double agent and before this I liked chaos theory…etc…I know that Ubisoft could have done better things in conviction but the fact is I like it…sorry guys but that’s my opinion I am a fan of splinter cell series and for me to compare two games from the same series is a little weird…I think that we must send feedback about what things we liked or not and if ubisoft is a serious company will see our comments and make things better in splinter cell 6…

Or the third branch.... people that suck it up and like both for different reasons.....

[Noccifer]

Originally posted by Andrew116:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Falzar:
This post makes me feel a little awful and sad…how the fans of the series divided in two sides one that likes chaos theory and the other conviction... I am fan of splinter cell series no splinter cell 1, no Pandora tomorrow, no chaos theory, no double agent no conviction but all of them…and yes I like splinter cell conviction but before this I liked double agent and before this I liked chaos theory…etc…I know that Ubisoft could have done better things in conviction but the fact is I like it…sorry guys but that’s my opinion I am a fan of splinter cell series and for me to compare two games from the same series is a little weird…I think that we must send feedback about what things we liked or not and if ubisoft is a serious company will see our comments and make things better in splinter cell 6…

Or the third branch.... people that suck it up and like both for different reasons..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't like taking things up my ***, thank you.

We shouldn't be fighting because Conviction never should have existed.

If Ubi really wasn't trying to leech the last bits of dignity from Splinter Cell, they would've made a new Series starring Jason Bauer Schindler called The Twenty-Four Hour Ultimatum of Darkness.