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ZakHH
05-19-2005, 04:37 AM
Sorry if this issue was already discussed here, but I did not find any traces so far.

Gamespot has issued a first preview on HoMM5, that's worth reading:
Preview at Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/heroesofmightandmagicv/preview_6124747.html)

Sounds fine to me, with 1 exception:

"The archangels mopped up after the battle was over, but at the very end, a skeletal dragon swooped down on the battlefield for some reason and decimated the survivors. (Fabrice) Cambounet suggests that unpredictable events like this will take place in Heroes, which should make battles even more interesting."

Please, Fabrice, say it isn't so. That sounds to me like "Hey, nice fighting, dude. Unfortunately, right after your victorious battle, Godzilla appeared out of nowhere and reduced your army by <RANDOM(x)> percent. Well, **** happens, there's nothing you could do about it."

Random events are likely to ruin every multiplayer game. I create a nice army, head off to my opponent's land, try to sweep some imps that block my way - and lose some Black Dragons by an "unpredictable event". Sorry to say so, but that does not make a game more interesting, au contraire!

I would appreciate if you would introduce strategic options that make "loss-free" battles more difficult, even with highly superior armies. Maybe fortifications on the battlefield for small armies, or whatever.

But pleeeeeeease - do not just increase the element of chance. Hitting the dice has nothing to do with strategy. It already annoyed me in HoMM4 (and earlier versions), that I had i.e. no chance to influence the spells that were available in the Mage Guild. If my opponent has good spells, and I don't, I could lose the game thanks to that, without having made any mistake. That's a fun-killer.

Also, allied scenarios were practically unplayable in HoMM4, thanks to the stupid AI, whose actions came quite close to "unpredictable events".

So please, be at least more than careful when using the element of chance!

Best regards
Zak

khabal
05-19-2005, 04:59 AM
omg... somebody take his keyboard away, please.

Ellderon
05-19-2005, 05:11 AM
why?

Darkuss1983
05-19-2005, 05:18 AM
I wouldn't be suprised if unpredictable events would be an option chosen when starting a game. Than you can see in practice how it turns out and than judge (and if you don't like just turn it off). Something like H4 stationary/mobile guards.

The idea itself may be fun if done right

ZakHH
05-19-2005, 05:22 AM
If optional, it could be fun to increase the challenge for singleplayer games, indeed.

If not, and / or if the events are too mighty, they could ruin the fun with multiplayer games. Because I hate playing for hours and then just losing because my opponent had more luck than I had.

@khabal: break my laptop, and you're dead... And I support Ellderon's request.

JoostJens
05-19-2005, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Darkuss1983:
I wouldn't be suprised if unpredictable events would be an option chosen when starting a game. Than you can see in practice how it turns out and than judge (and if you don't like just turn it off). Something like H4 stationary/mobile guards.

The idea itself may be fun if done right

I agree, let it be an option and if nobody like it, it can be removed from future games. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

skortzy
05-19-2005, 05:51 AM
Maybe it was just a spell used in combat... Something like: "summon bone dragon at the end of combat" that you might want to cast if you are almost sure you will lose. Or maybe the spell is something like: "summon bone dragon at the end if I lose the batlle".

Just a thought... but I think it would be nice to have such spells.

khabal
05-19-2005, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by ZakHH:
@khabal: break my laptop, and you're dead... And I support Ellderon's request.

Lol I´m not talking about breaking, but "robbing" your keyboard http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And that was some kind of desperating shout calling to common sense http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ; do you realice that you´re asking to change or even remove something that you don´t know at all what the hell is and/or how it will work? You´re basing your arguments on a trailer that will hardly match movementes, cameras and/or situations in games, since they´re just cinematic, and on a comment about that cinematic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Are you really afraid about an unit that can kill your army after your hard won battle? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (note that there aren´t any exclamation marks) I don´t know at all what that "unpredictable events like this will take place in Heroes" gossip means, but I´m sure that they for sure won´t develop a game where just play would be frustrating.

I understand that we can hardly conceal our E3 nerves http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, but please, let them at least 24 hours to show and talk about this a little before starting another "Blame the hell with this" campaign. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I appologize in advance if it sounds disturbing in any way, but I ask you to reflect on it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Zamolxis108
05-19-2005, 06:14 AM
I also hate this so called "element of chance". One of the things I hated the most was the blocking ability of the minotaurs in H4. It was pretty unfair. Just because of chance, I could have totally lose, or win without losses a battle against a pack of minotaurs. I mean, how can a 10 black dragons attack 5 minotaurs, and do no damage to at least one of them? And this element of chance applies also to other situations like this. Especially in multiplayer it can be pretty unbalancing (if it really depends on the chance, as they said).

OZFirst
05-19-2005, 06:26 AM
some people need to work on their flexibility.

The element of chance adds mystery and interest.

And like the man said, we don't even know how it works yet.

The_Vortex
05-19-2005, 06:31 AM
For these unpredictable events MUST be an option to TURN ON/OFF, or it will ruin the gameplay especially in multiplayer. Just imagine: you won the hard battle against your human opponent, and only a few crusaders left in your army. Then suddenly devils appear and tear them up. Your powerful hero is defeated, and in another turn other human player takes your town --> game over.

OZFirst
05-19-2005, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by The_Vortex:
For these unpredictable events MUST be an option to TURN ON/OFF, or it will ruin the gameplay especially in multiplayer. Just imagine: you won the hard battle against your human opponent, and only a few crusaders left in your army. Then suddenly devils appear and tear them up. Your powerful hero is defeated, and in another turn other human player takes your town --> game over.


Awwww.



Maybe it forces you to have a backup plan, eh?

UndeadDontDie
05-19-2005, 07:29 AM
Just as you can't believe he is talking against a feature that he has yet to see, how can you support a feature you haven't seen yourselves?
I think its pretty stupid that after a combat some creature could randomly pop up and attack you, especially since it makes no since :\
It could however be a cool feature to turn on or off and maybe some (really annoying) gimmick for one of the campaign maps.

OZFirst
05-19-2005, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
Just as you can't believe he is talking against a feature that he has yet to see, how can you support a feature you haven't seen yourselves?


I'm not supporting it. I don't know enough about it to support or reject it, and neither do you.

Omega_Destroyer
05-19-2005, 08:54 AM
There is a chance they were just talking about the trailler itself...

alpha-draco1984
05-19-2005, 09:14 AM
well, he said it there would be suprises in game.

it could be good. seems to me though there are going to be lots of options for playing the game, and im sure you will be able to toggle this.

Djive
05-19-2005, 01:36 PM
Why do you think the event was unpredictible?

Perhaps it was triggered by the terrain or place you fought on?

Or as a revenge for the fact that you killed a certain type of troop?

Besides, some events need to have random effects. Spells can already have X % chance to fail because of magical resistance, so why not physical attacks?

If you think about it there are already a lot of special effects in the game that happen randomly. (Poisoning, Stoning, Death stare, Luck, Morale). Also consider that damage itself is often random, though within certain limits.

Generally speaking: without some random elements the game would be a bit boring.

DFrosty1
05-19-2005, 03:09 PM
I think its pretty stupid that after a combat some creature could randomly pop up and attack you, especially since it makes no since :\


Actually, if I was a hungry Bone dragon... that is exactly when I would attack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Think on that, before just sending your hordes.

El_Diablo999
05-19-2005, 03:14 PM
I like unpredictablility, its fun because its...well...unpredictable

Aseved
05-19-2005, 03:23 PM
As long as unpredictability complies with the paradox of being somewhat predictable, it will spice up the game.

That is, if unpredictabilities appear not just as random events, but as "risks" you know you are taking (by fighting in a certain terrain, maybe next to a neutral creature that might join the fight, maybe against a certain opponnent), you can prevent their effects beforehand. It's thinking two (or three) possible endings instead of one.

If they manage to do that (giving a sense of when things happen or not happen), and balance these ocurrences so they are not game breakers, nor simple distractions; this feature could be a nice one.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
05-19-2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by OZFirst:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
Just as you can't believe he is talking against a feature that he has yet to see, how can you support a feature you haven't seen yourselves?


I'm not supporting it. I don't know enough about it to support or reject it, and neither do you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*grin* OZ trying to educate the masses. What would baby jesus think? :O)

But truthfully, I agree with OZ here. I'm not going to bash or praise an idea that I've yet to see. How about we give the game developers the benefit of the doubt for a change? I know that's a stretch to ask of a Heroes-fanbase (especially when you look back on the Forge-fiasco) but give it a try. To automatically exclaim that "I think its pretty stupid ......especially since it makes no since", is a pretty naive statement. You don't know that it's a stupid idea because you don't really know the full details of the idea AND it makes no sence because WE don't know what it is and what it does. So how about we NOT jump to conclusions about other peoples hypothesis?

*realizes he's talking to a heroes-fan*

Ummmm...nevermind. :O) j/k

CH_Psychobabble
05-19-2005, 10:27 PM
i think you'll find they're talking about scripting. such events are unpredictable from the player's perspective but obviously under the control of the map-maker. scripting was possibly the best thing about H4 (as far as user made maps goes), lets hope it's even more integrated, even to the point of mid-battle scripts. Twould be very cool...

UndeadDontDie
05-19-2005, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by DFrosty1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think its pretty stupid that after a combat some creature could randomly pop up and attack you, especially since it makes no since :\


Actually, if I was a hungry Bone dragon... that is exactly when I would attack http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Think on that, before just sending your hordes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you were a Bone Dragon, you wouldn't be hugry since you do not need to eat anyway, you are undead!
And just a random Bone Dragon popping out of nowhere doesnt make sense.
And as I said before, I don't oppose the idea, I just don't think its a very good one that makes a lot of sense, it could be a lot of fun though.
EDIT: And CHUCKLES, thanks for using the age-old method of completely ignoring what I said and picking on a mispelled word (which I would have fixed a few seconds after posting it, if the boards didn't kick me in the *** everytime I tried editing that post).

ZakHH
05-19-2005, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by khabal:
Lol I´m not talking about breaking, but "robbing" your keyboard http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yeah, and since it is an integral part of my laptop, that would mean breaking it... *still defending my hardware* http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


do you realice that you´re asking to change or even remove something that you don´t know at all what the hell is and/or how it will work? You´re basing your arguments on a trailer that will hardly match movementes, cameras and/or situations in games, since they´re just cinematic, and on a comment about that cinematic. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

It was not the cinematics. I worked in game design / development for 2 years, so I know that these kind of trailers are done by folks who do not know more about the game than the marketing manager told them, thus such trailers are mere eye-candy.

What I worried about was Fabrice's statement. I feel that one problem of all heroes games so far was that from some point you had an army that enabled mostly loss-less battles against AI players and neutral creatures. So far, they found no way to face this problem.

Adding a strong element of chance would be such an idea, but especially regarding multiplayer games, it would be a very bad one. There is various other possibilities (like limiting the max army size to the leadership level of the hero, or whatever), but using chance is the worst you could do - in my opinion.

Sure, a certain element of chance is necessary, and HoMM contains plenty of it, most of it well-used. But using chance to decimate a victorious army would be like forcing the auto-combat feature of HoMM4, where a certain number of hitpoints of the neutral army was randomly subtracted from your army, meaning you could lose a black dragon while fighting 200 imps, which in manual combat was almost impossible.



Are you really afraid about an unit that can kill your army after your hard won battle?

Well, that's about it, yeah... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif (note that there aren´t any exclamation marks)

Much appreciated. I hate "noise bars", too, and try to limit their use to the few occasions where they indeed make sense! Sorry, ... make sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



I don´t know at all what that "unpredictable events like this will take place in Heroes" gossip means, but I´m sure that they for sure won´t develop a game where just play would be frustrating.


So do I, and I really trust their skills. The only problem I see is that such a feature like I fear it may be quite funny in singleplayer game, but it could be a killer in multiplayer games, and I only do play multiplayer. That's why all I did was to ask Fabrice and the guys to use this hellish spice veery carefully. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



I understand that we can hardly conceal our E3 nerves http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, but please, let them at least 24 hours to show and talk about this a little before starting another "Blame the hell with this" campaign. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I appologize in advance if it sounds disturbing in any way, but I ask you to reflect on it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Your second post sounded much less disturbing than your first one. Your request for reflection was acknowledged, and I tried my best to do so. Hope I could convince you that I did not want to whine about something which no one knows so far. After all, the article contained a quote from Fabrice, so in my eyes, there is at least a certain basis for a possible discussion.

Though he sure won't have time to comment on this while the E3 takes place, that's true...

ZakHH
05-19-2005, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by OZFirst:
some people need to work on their flexibility.

The element of chance adds mystery and interest.


Disagree on this general statement. Would an element of chance add mystery to a chess game? Would it make chess more interesting?

"Chance" is the mere opposite of "strategic decision". Sure, a heroes without any random aspects would certainly be less fun to play. But too much chance turns a strategy game into a game of dice. And maybe there is something wrong with my flexibility - but I do not want Heroes to become a game of dice.

(Before someone shouts to grill my hardware again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - I know it won't be that bad. I just want to point out my opinion by depicting a worst-case scenario. I know that the Nival guys know their stuff, so I trust that we will all be happy in a couple of months http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Just want to add my 2 cents to the game discussion.)

ZakHH
05-19-2005, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Aseved:
As long as unpredictability complies with the paradox of being somewhat predictable, it will spice up the game.

That is, if unpredictabilities appear not just as random events, but as "risks" you know you are taking (by fighting in a certain terrain, maybe next to a neutral creature that might join the fight, maybe against a certain opponnent), you can prevent their effects beforehand. It's thinking two (or three) possible endings instead of one.

If they manage to do that (giving a sense of when things happen or not happen), and balance these ocurrences so they are not game breakers, nor simple distractions; this feature could be a nice one.

Very good point! If the player will be able to "foresee the unpredictability", then it is not mere chance anymore. If I know that something can go wrong, and I take the risk nevertheless, then I must not complain if things turn against me.

But I should have an option to avoid risks, if possible. After all, that's what strategy about - finding the balance between taking and avoiding risks.

CH_Psychobabble
05-19-2005, 11:20 PM
dudes, i think you're all misreading what "unpredictable" means, because it most likely doesn't mean "random". like I said in my last post, it's probably talking about scripting.

ZakHH
05-19-2005, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
But truthfully, I agree with OZ here. I'm not going to bash or praise an idea that I've yet to see. How about we give the game developers the benefit of the doubt for a change? I know that's a stretch to ask of a Heroes-fanbase (especially when you look back on the Forge-fiasco) but give it a try. To automatically exclaim that "I think its pretty stupid ......especially since it makes no since", is a pretty naive statement. You don't know that it's a stupid idea because you don't really know the full details of the idea AND it makes no sence because WE don't know what it is and what it does. So how about we NOT jump to conclusions about other peoples hypothesis?


Well, what's the reason for this board at this point then? In my humble opinion, at this point it is for posting new ideas, and discussing new facts, that are published slowly by the developers.

And that's all I wanted to do. We came to witness some small shards of what the game may be like, supported by a comment from Fabrice, and I took the liberty to myself again comment on this and to ask to be careful with using certain classic elements of game design (with chance being perhaps the most classic one).

So I could accept if someone faces me, saying "I disagree, I would like to see more of this element in the game, because...". And I do accept that maybe I am too pessimistic again - maybe I just care too much about HoMM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

But saying "this whole discussion makes no sense as we all do not know what it will be like" means questioning the whole board until the release day.

I don't know if the developers do read the board - I suppose they do at least from time to time. In the company I worked for, we read the board rather carefully, taking up ideas and criticisms and discussing some of them intensively.

So I did not want to bash anyone's ideas. I just wanted to point out my point of view, which anyone may like or not. But I think that is what this board is for, so please don't blame me (or anyone else) for having thoughts on the recently published information bits.

(Of course I would be happy if we had more facts to discuss. GUUUUUYS! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .)

unreal_az
05-20-2005, 12:07 AM
Guys this can be a wonderfull idea if its put into action good for example if its either influenced by the terrain or by an spell that necromancer may cast or by an artefact that would summon bonedragons(or any kind if undead troops) equal to your army strenght so one would think twice before atacking you. Or this could be somekind of campaign feature that would happen. Cause from what i seen in the trailer of the game i think that the humans call in the undead to help against the demons.. it seems like the last resort.. but perhaps it tunrs on them too. Dealing with undead summoning skeletons liches and bone dragons dosen't seem a good idea in games .. the one who summoned them always dies :P

ZakHH
05-20-2005, 12:25 AM
Okay, you got me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That does not sound uncool at all, indeed. And you are right, that is a possible interpretation of what we see in the trailer.

Let's then just hope that the feature will not be too mighty. There's always been a couple of rather mighty features in every Heroes game so far, but I trust that H5 will be well balanced (well, the older games weren't that bad, either...).

recca_cool
05-20-2005, 05:55 AM
The way I see it is simple:
I always loved heroes for game-play, tactics, challenge in defeating completing the map...

NOT for the "unpredictable" events. i said it in another thread already, but PLEASE no unpredictable events & messing up with the gameplay...

Some of you might get me wrong, but guys... you keep saying "Let's add funto the game"
well mind you, instead of adding "fun" elements to the game , time & effort should be spent on developing game-engine, game AI, graphics, battle engine magic system, etc.

The one thing I loved about heroes is the infinite strategies/tactics one can use due to the creatures/magic system which is unique to HoMM.

This features is not confirmed, and I hope it is NOT THERE, and a friendly advice to game dveleopers:
Stay away from such (childish) ideas. If you want to add fun to the game, add complexity,flexibility, build a solid game-play & extensiable magic system , creatures, artifacts...

"Town Portal" or "View Air/Earth" spells were fun! we surely did enjoy them in H3, but after playing H4 & being forced not to use them (which I missed at the beginning) but as I got used to it, it was practical/realstic point of view of game-play & it made the game harder..

One might point out that introducing such random effects is part of realisim... however, this is wrong analogy. And reason for that is: not being able to use "Town portal" you can plan & think ahead & expand the map in a logical/secure manner which adds complexity & challange to the game..

However, can you plan against "Bone dragon sweeping you out of no where" ? Of course not!

If you guys remember the small theif creatures which are hidden in H3 (yet you can view them using scouting skills) ... that was acceptable because:
1- you can have a skill & ability to view them.
2- if you were forced to battle them, u'd still have an option to avoid/retreat/etc.
3- They were not much of a threat

however, after winning a battle.... you just die like that for no reason?? naaah...... this is stupid...

I am sure it is not like that, I am sure it is part of scenrio or something...

or that is what I hope for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif


There is absoultly no need to ruin that by introducing "random fun" factors http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Crusard
05-21-2005, 08:27 PM
Hey, guys! Anybody listening to what Psychobabble is saying?

I am certain that there will not be totally unpredictable events. That would absolutely absurd.
However, if this showed us the capabilities of the battle engine, then a whole new array of possibilities would emerge for map makers. Anybody plays RPGs? Those special attacks from bosses, or the in-battle dialogues between the characters, all those might become available to us in HeroesV. Up to now, battles have always been the same, sometimes repetitive, but with this feature players would be able to experience more epic and immersive combats.

So, don't you ever worry about bone dragons coming to eat all your angels after a combat ends when playing a multiplayer arcade map http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

killsweng
05-21-2005, 09:47 PM
Looking back at the comment from gamespot, it seems that they were just shown footage from the battle sequence and not the events the occured prior to engaging the enemy, so we dont reaaallly know what else could have been going on in the background. I remember in ... one of the HOMM games, maybe all, that if you go to attack a group of creatures, and there are another seperate group standing right next to them, you'll fight the first group and then the second would attack you straight away. The unpredictable event could be that the bone dragon was in a simular situation as the second group of creatures.

Then again, the guy did say "unpredictable", so what i said probably doesnt apply in this situation. But yeah, scripted events sound cool ... and if it was part of the campaign game mode, maybe your supposed to die ... or maybe they just wanted to show some "skeletal dragons" in action and it means nothing.

Azure_Slayer
06-01-2005, 12:15 AM
i think it would be fun but it should be optional

Nervous
06-02-2005, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by ZakHH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aseved:
As long as unpredictability complies with the paradox of being somewhat predictable, it will spice up the game.

That is, if unpredictabilities appear not just as random events, but as "risks" you know you are taking (by fighting in a certain terrain, maybe next to a neutral creature that might join the fight, maybe against a certain opponnent), you can prevent their effects beforehand. It's thinking two (or three) possible endings instead of one.

If they manage to do that (giving a sense of when things happen or not happen), and balance these ocurrences so they are not game breakers, nor simple distractions; this feature could be a nice one.

Very good point! If the player will be able to "foresee the unpredictability", then it is not mere chance anymore. If I know that something can go wrong, and I take the risk nevertheless, then I must not complain if things turn against me.

But I should have an option to avoid risks, if possible. After all, that's what strategy about - finding the balance between taking and avoiding risks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

These guys got the point. Unpredictable should not be totaly random, but risks on taking certain decisions, possibilities.

The only thing I hope is that the "unpredictable events" are not strong enough to destroy an entire army, for example, the effects should be limited.

Events triggered by the terrain you are in or the structures around you. Maybe if you pass near to a dwelling, your army could be attacked by the creatures living there, or if you´re fighting in the lava some lava monsters could join the neutral stacks to destroy you... or even artifacts protected by guards, like in H2.

It could be nice, if the effects are limited, not devastating, not destroing all your armies!

jmgarcia16
06-04-2005, 11:26 AM
I am against unpredictable events and definitely we should be able to disable them, in single player and in multiplayer. It's a bad-taste joke to kill your army after a glorious battle between two 1000-unit armies. And everybody would restore the autosave game and repeat it, so it would have no effect.

Seal_Dragon
06-04-2005, 11:40 AM
i think it can made the game more risky and more enjoyable, a little bit like the beast in war craft 3 gather around the mines and springs ,which is quite good.

Omni-Potent
06-04-2005, 12:43 PM
should make the game quite a bit more fun
lol this should make multi quite a bit better seeing as everyone will be equal to have there army totaly destroyed anytime anywhere