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View Full Version : what is the Assassin's Economic theory



Radman500
12-15-2011, 06:24 PM
would you consider the Assassins to be capitalist, socialist, communist etc.. what economic system do "they" like the most, in your opinion.... what do you think

MrAnarchist
12-15-2011, 06:55 PM
Anarchy

Bipolar Matt
12-15-2011, 07:05 PM
Regulated capitalism, I would say.

Agentbarto
12-15-2011, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by MrAnarchist:
Anarchy

Dunno if that's an economic system, more of a philosophy really. In the old days before it was given the negative connotation of dethroning governments what anarchists really wanted was a world where we didn't need governments to enforce laws because we would all be willing to make compromises while still getting what we want out of life and focus our collective free time to advancing human culture and science. So maybe yes; anarchy seems likely.

eagleforlife1
12-16-2011, 02:01 AM
Neither capitalism or communism were invented at this point. I would say that they are rebels who in modern-day terms would be akin to socialists.

LightRey
12-16-2011, 04:59 AM
I believe it would be true communism. Not the communism of the Soviet Union or China, since both were forced and quite quickly corrupted, but the communism as being the ideal government form that would form naturally after the fall of capitalism in the Marxist/socialist view.

Agentbarto
12-16-2011, 05:22 AM
True communism would involve no government entity. Government would be an illusory state of society the only true government would be people governing themselves as I said above. This is probably why Marx said he was not a Marxist.

LightRey
12-16-2011, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Agentbarto:
True communism would involve no government entity. Government would be an illusory state of society the only true government would be people governing themselves as I said above. This is probably why Marx said he was not a Marxist.
True, it's a "government".

Agentbarto
12-16-2011, 04:08 PM
Ah okay so long as we see the difference in the language.

halflife52
12-16-2011, 10:11 PM
The Assassins fight to preserve free will and individuality. If anything, that's the opposite of socialism and communism, where the collective people as a whole are important, and the individual's skills and resources are used to (theoretically) make the collective better. The closest thing to the Assassins' point of view, in my opinion, would be libertarianism.

Ezio explains "Nothing is true, everything is permitted":

"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

To me, that says that while we live in a civilized, connected society, we are all individually responsible for our own actions, and we need to individually deal with the consequences of those actions. Without individual responsibility, society will fall apart.

OculusRed
12-16-2011, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by halflife52:
The Assassins fight to preserve free will and individuality. If anything, that's the opposite of socialism and communism, where the collective people as a whole are important, and the individual's skills and resources are used to (theoretically) make the collective better. The closest thing to the Assassins' point of view, in my opinion, would be libertarianism.

Ezio explains "Nothing is true, everything is permitted":

"To say that nothing is true, is to realize that the foundations of society are fragile, and that we must be the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted, is to understand that we are the architects of our actions, and that we must live with their consequences, whether glorious or tragic."

To me, that says that while we live in a civilized, connected society, we are all individually responsible for our own actions, and we need to individually deal with the consequences of those actions. Without individual responsibility, society will fall apart. Sounds the best so far. Frankly, I'm not sure where you fellows are grabbing socialism and communism from. "True Communism" not withstanding, socialism and communism tend to require a very powerful and often controlling central government. That sounds a lot more like Templars to me.

halflife52
12-16-2011, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by OculusRed:
Sounds the best so far. Frankly, I'm not sure where you fellows are grabbing socialism and communism from. "True Communism" not withstanding, socialism and communism tend to require a very powerful and often controlling central government. That sounds a lot more like Templars to me.

Exactly. Look at the socialist-leaning countries in Europe, or "communist" China and the Soviet Union. I put "communist" in quotation marks because neither China or the Soviet Union are/were true communist countries. China has an authoritarian quasi-capitalist system right now, and the Soviet Union was a totalitarian dictatorship under Stalin and an authoritarian socialist country afterwards. These countries all have strong central governments, forcing their will on the people. The Templars behave the same way.

B_Crispino
12-17-2011, 12:21 AM
Dude, China is everything but socialist... besides,communism is the inspiration of anarchy... No governments whatsoever. I do believe they are socialists/anarchists for the message of anarchism is that of individual behaviour for coletive cohesion. And how would people get to this "advanced state of conscience"? By education... Anyway, what imo discards communism is the "proletarian dictatorship" state of transition before the acttual communism. Even though they seem to like the prospect of "power to the people", a mostly centralized government is required before total freedom and the ideal society. Or something like that...

value_zero
12-17-2011, 01:15 AM
You all dont even come close enough to what is the true meaning of the communism, i already laughed enough, please live in communistic country and come here again.

B_Crispino
12-17-2011, 01:32 AM
there is none... we are talking about theory not practice

B_Crispino
12-17-2011, 01:33 AM
but maybe you wannna make things clear to us?

YuurHeen
12-17-2011, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by halflife52:

Exactly. Look at the socialist-leaning countries in Europe, or "communist" China and the Soviet Union. I put "communist" in quotation marks because neither China or the Soviet Union are/were true communist countries. China has an authoritarian quasi-capitalist system right now, and the Soviet Union was a totalitarian dictatorship under Stalin and an authoritarian socialist country afterwards. These countries all have strong central governments, forcing their will on the people. The Templars behave the same way.

sure look at the socialist country like the netherlands. legal prostitution, legal soft drugs policy and one of the first with gay marriage. forcing their will on the people. shame on them......

anyway the assassins dont have anything to do with economics or religion. they just want freedom for people and peace.

Bipolar Matt
12-17-2011, 09:01 PM
This is an interesting question. They obviously favor small businesses. That's why Ezio opens up all of those shops in Rome and Constantinople.

I would think they would favor true capitalism, in the sense that people should be able to work and earn a comfortable living for themselves. There is a big difference between real capitalism and corporatism.

Agentbarto
12-18-2011, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by BipolarMatt:
This is an interesting question. They obviously favor small businesses. That's why Ezio opens up all of those shops in Rome and Constantinople.

I would think they would favor true capitalism, in the sense that people should be able to work and earn a comfortable living for themselves. There is a big difference between real capitalism and corporatism.

Very good point. Many people misconstrue the capitalism we have now as defining capitalism. Truth is that things like vertical and horizontal integration techniques used by many capitalists these days are actually not characteristics inherent to capitalism. That's simply greed at its worst. Rather than outcompete competitors by making better products, companies cut back on spending at the cost of small businesses and the consumers.

E-Zekiel
12-18-2011, 03:22 AM
A cross between socialism and capitalism, with about an even balance, I would say.

CanterburyTales
12-18-2011, 09:09 PM
I would have to agree with capitalism, or at least a regulated free-market economy and mixed economy. In fact, in Assassin's Creed II and Brotherhood, Ezio rebuilds Monteriggioni and Rome respectively using what is arguably a case of capitalism occurring centuries before the concept was written down.

I really wish the writers of Brotherhood's Rift cluster puzzles hadn't made capitalism a Templar invention; it seems so hypocritical considering how Assassin's Creed has become a cash cow (not that I'm against cash cows).

OculusRed
12-18-2011, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by BipolarMatt:
This is an interesting question. They obviously favor small businesses. That's why Ezio opens up all of those shops in Rome and Constantinople.

I would think they would favor true capitalism, in the sense that people should be able to work and earn a comfortable living for themselves. There is a big difference between real capitalism and corporatism. I'm pretty sure small businesses were pretty much all there was at the time that was not state controlled. I wouldn't read too much into that.

halflife52
12-20-2011, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by YuurHeen:

sure look at the socialist country like the netherlands. legal prostitution, legal soft drugs policy and one of the first with gay marriage. forcing their will on the people. shame on them......

Just because the Netherlands allows those things doesn't mean everyone agrees with it. A few years ago, the center-right government allowed government officials who oppose same-sex marriage to refuse to have to marry gay couples. Socialist politicians opposed this, saying that any gov't official who refused should be removed from their job. If you disagree with it, why should you be forced to do it anyway? It's essentially saying that someone else's rights are more important than your own.

On top of that, the Netherlands taxes the crap out of its citizens to fund the welfare state it runs. The lowest income tax rate is 32%, the highest a whopping 52%, which starts at an income of 56,491 (about $73,800). By comparison, someone making $73,800 in the U.S. pays less than half that, at a rate of 25%. The top U.S. tax rate is 35%, just a little over the Netherlands' lowest tax rate. Imposing high taxes and wealth redistribution on people under the threat of imprisonment isn't freedom. It's government-sanctioned robbery.

Agentbarto
12-20-2011, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by halflife52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YuurHeen:

sure look at the socialist country like the netherlands. legal prostitution, legal soft drugs policy and one of the first with gay marriage. forcing their will on the people. shame on them......

True but it's only considered "robbery" because humans haven't learned that sharing doesn't have to mean the loss of individual gain. It only seems like it does.
Just because the Netherlands allows those things doesn't mean everyone agrees with it. A few years ago, the center-right government allowed government officials who oppose same-sex marriage to refuse to have to marry gay couples. Socialist politicians opposed this, saying that any gov't official who refused should be removed from their job. If you disagree with it, why should you be forced to do it anyway? It's essentially saying that someone else's rights are more important than your own.

On top of that, the Netherlands taxes the crap out of its citizens to fund the welfare state it runs. The lowest income tax rate is 32%, the highest a whopping 52%, which starts at an income of 56,491 (about $73,800). By comparison, someone making $73,800 in the U.S. pays less than half that, at a rate of 25%. The top U.S. tax rate is 35%, just a little over the Netherlands' lowest tax rate. Imposing high taxes and wealth redistribution on people under the threat of imprisonment isn't freedom. It's government-sanctioned robbery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True but this is only because humans haven't learned that sharing doesn't have to mean the loss of individual gain and ambition. Communism and socialism as currently practiced are forced sharing and they don't work because people don't necessarily internalize the belief that sharing is good and that you can still make happy strides forward in personal pursuits and ventures all while caring for others.

Edit: Just saw we basically said the same thing. Yikes I deserve a face palm; maybe less.

LightRey
12-21-2011, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by halflife52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by YuurHeen:

sure look at the socialist country like the netherlands. legal prostitution, legal soft drugs policy and one of the first with gay marriage. forcing their will on the people. shame on them......

Just because the Netherlands allows those things doesn't mean everyone agrees with it. A few years ago, the center-right government allowed government officials who oppose same-sex marriage to refuse to have to marry gay couples. Socialist politicians opposed this, saying that any gov't official who refused should be removed from their job. If you disagree with it, why should you be forced to do it anyway? It's essentially saying that someone else's rights are more important than your own.

On top of that, the Netherlands taxes the crap out of its citizens to fund the welfare state it runs. The lowest income tax rate is 32%, the highest a whopping 52%, which starts at an income of 56,491 (about $73,800). By comparison, someone making $73,800 in the U.S. pays less than half that, at a rate of 25%. The top U.S. tax rate is 35%, just a little over the Netherlands' lowest tax rate. Imposing high taxes and wealth redistribution on people under the threat of imprisonment isn't freedom. It's government-sanctioned robbery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A government offical whose job it is to get people married, should under no circumstances refuse to marry any couple that can legally get married as that means they're refusing to carry out their duties, which is enough to sue and/or fire them on its own. They have the right to have their opinions about gay marriage, but they have a job to do and refusing to carry out that job in any way, shape or form is illegal. period.

I'll also have you know that though we in the Netherlands have very high taxes indeed, it strongly depends on your income how much you have to pay. You have to pay a certain percentage over certain "layers" of income. To give an example of they way it kind of works (all numbers are made up by me and likely very unrealistic):
Say you make 60000 Euros. You have to pay 10% over the first 30000 and then 15% over the next 20000 and then 20% over the next 10000. This way someone making 30000 Euros only has to pay 10% over their entire income.
The fact that the lowest income tax rate is 32% means that people that make relatively little money still have a very good income. The thing is, we just don't have that many poor people (anymore). What's poor in the Netherlands is an average income in the US. We barely have any homeless people and those we do have came from other countries, and don't have a passport, because even as a hobo they have it better here.

It's a very well working system and thanks to it the Netherlands has one of the highest average incomes in the world with a very low poverty rate.

We pay lots of taxes, yes, but that doesn't mean we have crappy net income.

I'm also not sure where you got your numbers from, but I'm quite sure my mother actually already has to pay about 55% of her income to taxes and though she has a pretty high income, there are people here that make way more money than she does.

najzere
12-21-2011, 11:35 AM
Libertarianism seems to be the closest to me. Emphasis on personal freedom and responsibility, and minimizing the power of the ruling caste is a recurring theme in all the games. I see the Assassins as very anti-Socialist, actually. I get no sense of common ownership and the Brotherhood itself has a very strict hierarchy, which is at odds with Socialism's preference for equality in economic and political power.

It's a moot question however, since the Assassins have operated throughout history in all types of economic and political models. Other than getting rich as hell through land and business acquisition, Ezio seems content to let the people have whatever system they like, as long as they're allowed to freely make that choice.