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dbillo
03-10-2006, 09:46 PM
I have made a few simple missions for me and my friends to fly online. There are four bombers which we attack with IL-2.

I have one version of the mission using four He-111 bombers at 500m and escort by two Bf-109 at 800m. The 109s dutifully follow the bombers all along their route...and do nothing as we shoot them out of the sky.

Meanwhile, in another version of the mission, a copy, in fact, except that I changed the He-111 to IL-4 and changed the Bf-109 to I-16. Now, the I-16s will come after us as soon as they see us, as well they should!

Why such a different response just by changing aircraft type? Why don't the 109s defend their escorts?

Yes, I have 'set' the bombers as target of the escorting fighters at each waypoint along the route. The missions are identical except for aircraft type as described.

VW-IceFire
03-10-2006, 11:44 PM
May be the AI type involved. The 109 AI is probably going to want to setup for an BNZ attack...while the I-16s are TNB. I think there is some distinguishing factor for the AI in this regard.

What do the 109s do exactly? If they see bandits they should attack...regardless of anything else.

What type of 109s are involved?

mandrill7
03-11-2006, 05:41 AM
I had the same problem in a scenario with - i believe - P-51's escorting B-25J's. The P-51's seemed to think they were bombers and simply passively followed the B-25's around without actually trying to protect them. I was attacking in a Ki-84.

I did the following fixes.

1. I double-checked and made sure the P-51's were not organized as part of the same squadron as the B-25's. In my mission, I had forgotten to make the fighters a different squadron than the bombers and that may have been the problem.

2. I messed around with the "target set" fucntion and reset it from the bombers ("escort") to the Japa. fighters at the appropriate time.

These 2 changes made all the difference and my P-51's were happily trying to kill me the next time I ran the mission.

BH-21
03-11-2006, 06:32 AM
Well the AI behavior is determined by your ordinance loadout. If you are carrying rockets or anything like that they will only want to shoot ground targets.

Mr_Nakajima
03-11-2006, 07:48 AM
Hmmm...

I have a similar problem. I have set up a box of B-17s with P-51 escort, preceeded by a flight of chaff-dropping USAAF Mosquito B.IVs with their own escort of P-38s. The escorts won't attach to either set of bombers but proceed on their own merry way, and they also ignore the German interceptors (with me in them) and just fly straight and level.

I'm not doing anything different from what I have done in the past (and I spend a lot of time pulling missions together) so I wonder if this is a 'feature' of v4.04m? It was so unusual I wondered if I had a bad install, so passed the mission on to Rocketdog for him to try on his Pc - same result.

Anyone else having problems? I'll go and re-fly some of the missions I know worked under previous patches and see if there are any differences.

RocketDog
03-11-2006, 08:00 AM
Setting the escorts as a different squadron seems to make them able to attack. But when I try to attach escorts to bombers via the "set" button, they just fly in circles.

So...

1. Have to set escorts as a different squadron than bombers or they pick up the bomber AI and won't attack.

2. Have to manually arrange escort flight path rather than being able to attach escorts with set.

Cheers,

RD.

mandrill7
03-11-2006, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by RocketDog:
Setting the escorts as a different squadron seems to make them able to attack. But when I try to attach escorts to bombers via the "set" button, they just fly in circles.

So...

1. Have to set escorts as a different squadron than bombers or they pick up the bomber AI and won't attack.

2. Have to manually arrange escort flight path rather than being able to attach escorts with set.

Cheers,

RD.

You probably already know this, but escort AI will fly a zig-zag pattern over the bombers when you set the target button. I've even have spits try to zig-zag over Mossies. OTOH the Spits quickly "figured out" the Mossies were almost as fast as themselves and started to fly a straight flight path. If you let the mission unwind, the fighters will likely fly a rationale flight path.

RocketDog
03-11-2006, 08:15 AM
Not sure -- I think something has changed in one of the recent patches. Escort AI used to fly zig-zags or circles over their charges, but playing around with it today, all I end up with is them circling their last waypoint.

Time to look into this in more detail http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,

RocketDog.

Mr_Nakajima
03-11-2006, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
You probably already know this, but escort AI will fly a zig-zag pattern over the bombers when you set the target button. I've even have spits try to zig-zag over Mossies. OTOH the Spits quickly "figured out" the Mossies were almost as fast as themselves and started to fly a straight flight path. If you let the mission unwind, the fighters will likely fly a rationale flight path.

Hi Mandrill,

That's what I used to get happening, but now they don't - they just ignore the planes they should be escorting and go on their way. I'll post a quick mission for people to try out and see if they get the same.

dbillo
03-11-2006, 09:12 AM
I'm running this missions in FB+AEP 2.04
The insouciant fighters are Bf-109 E4, no rockets, only guns. They 'escort' just fine as far as circling and turning to keep near the bomber's flight path, however they just sit back and watch while we attack the bombers, quite different from the I-16s which come after us immdediately.

I'll try making them a different squadron as RD suggested. I know I could set an attack target to us, but I just can't understand why the Russian and German AI behaved so differently.

Mr_Nakajima
03-11-2006, 09:13 AM
Try this mission - here's the contents of the .mis file, I think all you need to do is paste it into an existing .mis and over-write the contents. Never could figure out what the .properties did! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

You are in the P-51, so hit autopilot and watch what happens. When I run it, the P-51 runs off into the distance and leaves the B-17 behind. Curious to know either what I'm doing wrong or if others get the same result.

[MAIN]
MAP Normandy/load2.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
player usa0110
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
usa0100
usa0110
[usa0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.B_17G
Fuel 100
weapons default
[usa0100_Way]
NORMFLY 49655.32 55385.44 5000.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 52014.79 55423.45 5000.00 300.00 &0
NORMFLY 119801.12 55385.44 5000.00 300.00 &0
[usa0110]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.P_51D20NA
Fuel 100
weapons default
[usa0110_Way]
NORMFLY 49623.29 55029.10 5000.00 400.00 usa0100 0 &0
NORMFLY 51982.76 55039.13 5000.00 400.00 usa0100 1 &0
NORMFLY 119801.12 54997.08 5000.00 400.00 usa0100 2 &0
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

Chuck_Older
03-11-2006, 09:55 AM
I've been playtesting missions that I made in 3.04, but now I'm running 4.04

My escorts still zigzag over Blenheims they are escorting

dbillo
03-11-2006, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Mr_Nakajima:
...Never could figure out what the .properties did! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
It contains the Mission name and description (briefing).

Mr_Nakajima
03-11-2006, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by dbillo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr_Nakajima:
...Never could figure out what the .properties did! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
It contains the Mission name and description (briefing). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So it does! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I usually use the editor, only just started to poke around in the files as text documents.

dbillo
03-11-2006, 10:33 AM
Mr_Nakajima, I tested your mission in FB+AEP 2.04 with same result as you, so I tinkered with it.

First I increased altitude of the P-51 to 5200m and moved its waypoints further behind the B-17. This did nothing.

Then I added another P-51 waypoint to replace the first one, and cleared the target of the first waypoint, placed it well behind the B-17. The (new) second waypoint is near the bomber and has the escort target set. This works!

Try it and see:
[MAIN]
MAP Normandy/load2.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
player usa0110
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
usa0100
usa0110
[usa0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.B_17G
Fuel 100
weapons default
[usa0100_Way]
NORMFLY 49655.32 55385.44 5000.00 300.00
NORMFLY 74597.37 55355.18 5000.00 300.00
NORMFLY 119801.12 55385.44 5000.00 300.00
[usa0110]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.P_51D20NA
Fuel 100
weapons default
[usa0110_Way]
NORMFLY 47017.01 55003.08 5200.00 400.00
NORMFLY 49000.46 55005.46 5200.00 400.00 usa0100 0
NORMFLY 73010.94 55007.20 5200.00 400.00 usa0100 1
NORMFLY 118337.61 55029.67 5200.00 400.00 usa0100 2
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]


You can tell immediately that it is working because the P-51 pilot's head is turned to face the bomber. It seems he just needed a little 'lead' time to acquire the escort target. I haven't changed the altitude back to co-alt 5000m, but I think the higher alt. escort is the preferred method IMHO.

Aviar
03-11-2006, 11:16 AM
dbillo,

Actually, the escort is still not working. Check it again.

When the P-51 first catches up to the B-17, it circles around and falls behind. When it catches up again, it continues past and no longer 'escorts', just like the original mission.

To further prove this point is to take the last B-17 waypoint and move it north or south a good distance...say 10km. If the P-51 were escorting correctly, it would follow the B-17 to this new waypoint, but it does not. It continues flying straight.

Actually, I'm starting to think there is some kind of escort bug in 4.04....possibly in the FMB itself. My old coops seem to work ok, but any new escort mission does not work at all.

EDIT: I just saw that you are running 2.04. Since there may be some kind of escort bug in 4.04, your tests won't be valid unless you run the same version.

In any event, when doing this kind of testing, all parties need to run the same version.

Aviar

dbillo
03-11-2006, 12:19 PM
Right you are, Aviar, however I was able to prolong the escort behaviour by adding a few more waypoints for both aircraft, including one for the bomber that was far to the north. It appears that the escort behaviour is abandoned between the last and next-to-last waypoints, no matter what. The initial mission had that happening immediately due to the number and location of waypoints.

It also appears this is not exclusively a 4.04 bug, as it is happening in 2.04 as well. Nonetheless, I took your advice and tested the same mission in 4.04m and it behaved exactly the same there. The escort is abandoned after the next-to-last waypoint. It can be fixed by adding additional waypoints until the desired effect is achieved.

VW-IceFire
03-11-2006, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by dbillo:
Right you are, Aviar, however I was able to prolong the escort behaviour by adding a few more waypoints for both aircraft, including one for the bomber that was far to the north. It appears that the escort behaviour is abandoned between the last and next-to-last waypoints, no matter what. The initial mission had that happening immediately due to the number and location of waypoints.

It also appears this is not exclusively a 4.04 bug, as it is happening in 2.04 as well. Nonetheless, I took your advice and tested the same mission in 4.04m and it behaved exactly the same there. The escort is abandoned after the next-to-last waypoint. It can be fixed by adding additional waypoints until the desired effect is achieved.
So you got it solved?

If not, post the mission here and I'll have a look at it. I usually have a knack for figuring these things out.

dbillo
03-11-2006, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
So you got it solved?

If not, post the mission here and I'll have a look at it. I usually have a knack for figuring these things out.
Heh heh! Sorry IceFire, I allowed my original thread to be diverted to solving Mr_Nakajima's escort problem. I haven't done anything with mine, yet, but my problem wasn't with getting 'escort' behaviour but in getting them to actually defend their escort targets. I'll tinker with it and let you know what happens, or post the mission for you to tinker.

dbillo
03-11-2006, 02:27 PM
Here is my mission, in which the escorting Bf-109 E4s refuse to defend their charges:

[MAIN]
MAP Netmountains/load.ini
TIME 7.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
g0100
r0100
r0102
r0110
g0110
[g0100]
Planes 4
OnlyAI 1
Skill 1
Class air.HE_111H6
Fuel 100
weapons 4xSD250
[g0100_Way]
NORMFLY 15717.65 5256.65 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 23121.06 13212.88 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 22648.66 17858.10 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 21306.52 23165.11 500.00 300.00
GATTACK 24052.41 28501.93 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 27338.67 32645.35 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 27527.21 39747.16 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 32009.55 46667.90 500.00 300.00
[r0100]
Planes 2
Skill 1
Class air.IL_2MEarly
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0100_Way]
TAKEOFF 29852.92 38310.98 0 0
NORMFLY 27100.47 34727.59 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 21458.32 23921.67 500.00 300.00 g0100 3
[r0102]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.IL_2MEarly
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0102_Way]
TAKEOFF 26371.92 34131.83 0 0
NORMFLY 27238.40 34673.68 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 21658.42 23492.68 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 22865.40 18433.54 500.00 300.00 g0100 2
[r0110]
Planes 2
Skill 1
numberOn0 0
Class air.LI_2
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0110_Way]
TAKEOFF 23843.34 19081.87 0 0
NORMFLY 22121.93 25851.09 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 27374.86 33211.97 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 28183.85 40408.44 500.00 300.00
NORMFLY 31939.46 45912.05 500.00 300.00
[g0110]
Planes 2
OnlyAI 1
Skill 1
Class air.BF_109E4
Fuel 100
weapons default
[g0110_Way]
NORMFLY 12547.86 2783.48 800.00 285.00
NORMFLY 14793.55 5187.17 800.00 285.00 g0100 0
NORMFLY 22258.14 13062.68 800.00 285.00 g0100 1
NORMFLY 22005.11 17174.41 800.00 285.00 g0100 2
NORMFLY 20392.04 22804.33 800.00 285.00 g0100 3
NORMFLY 23396.78 28402.62 800.00 285.00 g0100 4
NORMFLY 26622.91 32799.02 800.00 285.00 g0100 5
NORMFLY 26870.74 39619.28 800.00 285.00 g0100 6
NORMFLY 31130.68 46466.74 800.00 285.00 g0100 7
[Chiefs]
0_Chief Vehicles.RussiaCarsColumnA 1
1_Chief Vehicles.RussiaCarsColumnA 1
2_Chief Vehicles.GAZ67t 1
3_Chief Vehicles.GAZ67 1
[0_Chief_Road]
25576.83 30576.89 120.00 0 10 3.055555582046509
25300.00 30300.00 20.00
24900.00 29900.00 20.00
24900.00 29100.00 20.00
24300.00 28500.00 20.00
24100.00 28500.00 -4.00
23900.00 28500.00 -4.00
23700.00 28500.00 20.00
23500.00 28700.00 20.00
23499.13 28831.90 120.00
[1_Chief_Road]
23899.91 27107.78 120.00 0 10 3.055555582046509
23900.00 27300.00 20.00
24100.00 27500.00 20.00
24100.00 28100.00 20.00
24300.00 28300.00 20.00
24100.00 28500.00 -4.00
23900.00 28500.00 -4.00
23700.00 28500.00 20.00
23500.00 28300.00 20.00
23233.26 28034.51 120.00
[2_Chief_Road]
30666.80 39594.29 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
30684.88 39603.09 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
30706.85 39596.90 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
30719.00 39576.49 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
30250.99 38905.83 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
30223.08 38897.59 120.00
[3_Chief_Road]
26251.36 34046.92 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26275.15 34047.77 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26305.56 34148.49 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26329.56 34156.78 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26357.94 34156.78 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26390.62 34146.86 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26166.13 33309.81 120.00 0 2 3.055555582046509
26119.39 33327.73 120.00
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[StaticCamera]
24080 28604 100
[Bridge]
[House]

VW-IceFire
03-11-2006, 04:09 PM
Figured out the problem. The AI is programmed to defend the bombers from attacking enemy fighters. It appears that it will not defend bombers from attacking enemy bombers (IL-2Ms). The AI obviously gives and maintains priority for attacking enemy fighters and will ignore the enemy bombers...probably for the reason of what happens when two bomber formations with escort fighters cross paths? (they could in DGEN)

This is definately a limitation of the AI system, however, its not frequently exposed.

This is my theory. Supported by this piece of evidence:

- fighters will not attack when enemy bomber type aircraft attack
- fighters will attack when enemy fighter aircraft attack

Solution: Use the IL-2I which was the IL-2 interceptor version. Its considered a fighter by the AI and attacks.

dbillo
03-11-2006, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Figured out the problem...
- fighters will not attack when enemy bomber type aircraft attack
- fighters will attack when enemy fighter aircraft attack
Solution: Use the IL-2I which was the IL-2 interceptor version. Its considered a fighter by the AI and attacks.
Ah, good work IceFire.
However, the alternate version of this mission, as I mentioned, has I-16 flying escort for IL-4. In that scenario, the attacking German a/c were Bf-110, which I thought was sort of a bomber not unlike how the IL-2M is a bomber. The I-16s waste no time in attacking the Bf-110s.

I will change the IL-2M to IL-2I, though.

Saunders1953
03-11-2006, 04:57 PM
VW-IceFire, excellent detective work! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif
dbillo, I'm not a Me 110 expert, but they were considered a fighter at least through the BoB--not a very good one against the competition, as it turned out, but one nonetheless.

mandrill7
03-11-2006, 05:59 PM
If you take away the "target set" that creates the escort, the 109's should attack the Il-2's without any problem - just as fighters normally attack any bomber.

The "escort" AI ignore enemy bombers as they don't consider attacking them relevant to their primary function, I guess.

Mr_Nakajima
03-12-2006, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by dbillo:
...I allowed my original thread to be diverted to solving Mr_Nakajima's escort problem...


And solve it you did. Thanks dbillo, the mision works now.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

RocketDog
03-12-2006, 02:34 AM
So let me check that I have this correct...

Escorts stop escorting between the last two waypoints, so we have to set enough waypoints that they will remain escorting over the part of the flightpath we require?

Cheers,

RocketDog.

Chuck_Older
03-12-2006, 05:33 AM
Well I suppose that you could work around that with the timeout, so that the escort duty is over before those waypoints

dbillo
03-12-2006, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by RocketDog:
So let me check that I have this correct...

Escorts stop escorting between the last two waypoints, so we have to set enough waypoints that they will remain escorting over the part of the flightpath we require?
It appears that way, based on what is happening in Mr_Nakajima'a mission.

dbillo
03-13-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Solution: Use the IL-2I which was the IL-2 interceptor version. Its considered a fighter by the AI and attacks.
Perfect! Made that change and the 109s attack as they should! Mayhem is restored in the Land of Forgotten Battles.