Forced to kill/be seen?

[Argonanth]

I've been a big fan of splinter cell since the first one came out and I've always tried to complete every mission perfectly without getting any alerts, being seen, and not even knocking anyone out unless it was required for the mission. I'm a little worried from the small demo we have been shown that we are going to be forced to engage enemies and not be able to sneak past everything and have no one see you.

Do you guys think we will be able to play it like a proper splinter cell game or is it just going to be a clear out this room to get into the next room type thing... I know there's still more E3 and they might show some more good stuff but I'm just hoping I'll be able to play this nice and slow like the previous ones.

[capteenix]

Originally posted by Argonanth:
I've been a big fan of splinter cell since the first one came out and I've always tried to complete every mission perfectly without getting any alerts, being seen, and not even knocking anyone out unless it was required for the mission. I'm a little worried from the small demo we have been shown that we are going to be forced to engage enemies and not be able to sneak past everything and have no one see you.

Do you guys think we will be able to play it like a proper splinter cell game or is it just going to be a clear out this room to get into the next room type thing... I know there's still more E3 and they might show some more good stuff but I'm just hoping I'll be able to play this nice and slow like the previous ones.

Yah, I don't like how from what I saw, we are forced to kill there it seems.

[tariqari]

I think we will definitely have the option and won't be forced to kill all the enemies.

[CoastalGirl]

I'm not sure yet. I'm hoping we have a choice, though some spots didn't seem to.

In any case, I've played plenty of stealth games where the focus is to clear the level of baddies (without being seen). I don't mind that concept, by itself. I would mind if they weren't bad guys, though, and if Sam had been turned into a crazy killer.

[Hypnosos]

While the gameplay remains intact, there's understandably some compromise that comes as a result of Fisher's more direct approach to his adversaries. 'You can avoid certain kills, but finishing a mission without killing anyone, I think is going to be impossible – but you'll be able to do it without ever being detected.'

Ripped straight out of IGN UK preview.

[Tidenburg]

Coastal, before he bursts into the final room. There is a window, he just turns fast so you don't see it. You could have flanked around. When he climbs up the pole he could have just continued on. They were demonstrating the NEW mechanics, we already know how LS works, hence all the action and murder. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


'You can avoid certain kills, but finishing a mission without killing anyone, I think is going to be impossible – but you'll be able to do it without ever being detected.'
Just now I read this quote and I: ***zed In My Pants.

[spypenguin]

I'm somewhat disappointed that very little of that gameplay was stealthy.

I hope we can turn M&E off.

[OniLinkSword]

You don't have to use M&E. You still have free aim. Also, Tidenburg is right, there's a window at the side implying that you can sneak around. It's clear that you don't HAVE to be rushing in guns-a-blazing, but you may want to because of how awesome it is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Tidenburg]

First day of release this badboi is going on the bigV downstairs and I'll put a big ol' video of me attempting, and failing to ghost through the first chapter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pietjevlip]

I don't care about being forced to kill. Bad guys, that is, as long as it isn't all of the game. You had to kill a lot of guys in the first SC, the toplevel badguys were all to die, Grinko, Nikoladze, Masse, etc. In CT there's also no way I'm aware of not to kill Shetland, and so on. It's not te killing 'an sich' that troubles me. It's the killing of everyone to reach your goal that does. Because even the death of your only child is no reason for a maniacal killing spree, not even for Sam Fisher. Whatever the conspiracy, if you go on through streets and places killing hundreds just to avenge/clear up one killing, even a Ironsided Sam Fisher does belong in a deep, dark and very hot place.

Of course, if these are just 'options', I'll be fine. In that case I just have to go SC:Ghoastal on one playthrough, completely CoD:MW on maybe my tenth, and keep enjoying a bloody decent game until playthrough #3761 and beyond http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Quote: Such... is my hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Andre202]

I don't understand why you couldn't stun an enemy?

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

I'm not concerned so much about being forced to kill them as I am about what way I'm being forced.

Shameful admittance: I always cleared the levels in all Splinter Cell games anyway, and I still will in ConViction.

As long as I get to kill them silently, swiftly, and without anyone ever knowing I was there, I have no complaints.

Which makes me nervous, because some of the sections felt like Rainbow Six (marking targets under the doorway and then busting through, anyone?). Not cool. Hopefully there will be options to resolve conflicts stealthily, or altogether bypass the conflicts.

Because Rainbow Six sucks.

[OniLinkSword]

I like rainbow six. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I only played the two Vegas games.

[simulacra]

I see alot of evidence to freeform gameplay in the videos, for instance, the 2 guards in the first room were heading out through the door as it seems.

Wait until they go out and sneak into the room and slip by the guards in the atrium etc.

The end scene in the large room seems to be set and you might have to kill them unless you can throw in a stun grenade into the room and slip out the window, but we'll see how that plays out later on.

[ERN456]

Originally posted by OniLinkSword:
I like rainbow six. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I only played the two Vegas games.

Those and Letdown don't count as R6 games IMO. Play the real ones such as Rogue Spear, RS3, RS Black Arrow or Raven Shield. I only got to play RS3 but it was way more fun than RSV or RSV2.

Now to stay on topic. I really hope you don't have to go through all that action in Conviction. I'm not a fan of action in stealth games. Hopefully they'll allow you to do things without having to run n gun.

[simulacra]

Originally posted by pietjevlip:
I don't care about being forced to kill. Bad guys, that is, as long as it isn't all of the game. You had to kill a lot of guys in the first SC, the toplevel badguys were all to die, Grinko, Nikoladze, Masse, etc. In CT there's also no way I'm aware of not to kill Shetland, and so on. It's not te killing 'an sich' that troubles me. It's the killing of everyone to reach your goal that does. Because even the death of your only child is no reason for a maniacal killing spree, not even for Sam Fisher. Whatever the conspiracy, if you go on through streets and places killing hundreds just to avenge/clear up one killing, even a Ironsided Sam Fisher does belong in a deep, dark and very hot place.

Of course, if these are just 'options', I'll be fine. In that case I just have to go SC:Ghoastal on one playthrough, completely CoD:MW on maybe my tenth, and keep enjoying a bloody decent game until playthrough #3761 and beyond http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Quote: Such... is my hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you look at the gamespot interview where they show some unseen gameplay in the market outside the mansion you can see that sam's crosshair turns into an "X" when looking at civilians.
I believe that this proves that sam cant M&E civilians even though there might not be any mechanic that is stopping you from shooting them manually.

I think that it's early for the L&S buffs out there to call this one as non stealthy just yet :9

[pietjevlip]

Killing civilians should be prevented, but I also don't like having to kill every guard that's in my path, because that isn't stealth, if I want to do that there's some decent action games out there. If I play a stealthgame I don't want to be forced to execute a lot of stealthless moves.

Really, I don't mind a shootout here and there, some guards might just have bad luck and have to catch my bullet, but killing them all to me makes no sense. I didn't mind having to 'pop' Nikoladze in the final SC mission. I wouldn't have liked the game if I was forced to kill every single poor guy tasked with guarding the royal gardens just because 'they were along the way'. I didn't mind the option to shoot 'em though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So again, it comes down to wether wat they've shown us so far is one of many options, or just pretty much the only way to proceed.

[icecubes_lawl]

Originally posted by OniLinkSword:
I like rainbow six. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I only played the two Vegas games.
Dude, go try out the original rainbow six. The one that came out way back in 1998. Its absolutely amazing.

[simulacra]

Originally posted by pietjevlip:
Killing civilians should be prevented, but I also don't like having to kill every guard that's in my path, because that isn't stealth, if I want to do that there's some decent action games out there. If I play a stealthgame I don't want to be forced to execute a lot of stealthless moves.

Really, I don't mind a shootout here and there, some guards might just have bad luck and have to catch my bullet, but killing them all to me makes no sense. I didn't mind having to 'pop' Nikoladze in the final SC mission. I wouldn't have liked the game if I was forced to kill every single poor guy tasked with guarding the royal gardens just because 'they were along the way'. I didn't mind the option to shoot 'em though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So again, it comes down to wether wat they've shown us so far is one of many options, or just pretty much the only way to proceed.

Look at the gameplay from E3 and you can figure out ways around killing everyone yourself, the clies actually are staring you in the face. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[spypenguin]

If you look at the gamespot interview where they show some unseen gameplay in the market outside the mansion you can see that sam's crosshair turns into an "X" when looking at civilians.
I believe that this proves that sam cant M&E civilians even though there might not be any mechanic that is stopping you from shooting them manually.

Storywise, I think that is because M&E is supposed to be the result of Sam's past experience, and I don't think he is an expert at killing civilians.

[simulacra]

Wierd response, since killing civvies is easier than armed guards/military units, skill wise, empathically it's a whole other ball game.

But my point was more to show the possible evidence that M&E is disabled when "targeting" civilians, for lack of a better word.

I do believe that this is how the game will work, only sam's "enemies" will be M&E lockable.
And the ID'ing of enemies is probably a part of the environment AI that they built into Sam.

[pietjevlip]

Wait... so now, he's a mech? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[simulacra]

Yes, he's a mech, if he gets hit he'll have to limp to a car garage while leaking oil and hydrualic fluid to tighten those nuts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think that the hero vision they talked about to years ago has evolved into this "sense" of targets and target priorities, in the IGN preview they talked about how he would retarget depending on what the guards do, you could mark a light, but if the guards react fast he's gonna ignore shooting the light and go for the guards instead.

How this will work when you have to 2 targets locked like outside the mansion, one light is tagged and one enemy, what will happen if only one enemy is tagged but you need to take them both out since you might be discovered and they both started shooting at you?
Maybe sam will target the second automatically or you would have to aim for the second shooter manually, time will tell.

[Shadow_Intent]

I too was one of those players that went for (and achieved) 100% stealth through all four games; avoiding detection and conflicts at all costs, only knocking people out if absolutely necassary.

However, based on the extended demo, I see no reason as to why you couldn't slip past most, if not all of those guards. Even the showdown with Kobin at the end; there is an open window before he goes into Kobin's room. It could easily be possible to climb through that window, shimmy along the outside of the building and re-enter the building behind Kobin, thereby getting the drop on him without the other guys noticing. Hey, even if they do notice, are they gonna open fire on you with Kobin in your hands?

Anyway, this is largely speculative... we shall find out soon enough I suppose.

[UbiRazz]

You could easily do the whole E3 demo (except the last section) without killing anyone by using the darkness, Last Known Position and many other tools at Sam's disposal. We'll do a walkthrough of this soon I'm sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[pietjevlip]

Razz, consider yourself lucky you're a male-thingie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif You just made me happy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif as in... really happy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif happy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[MiLKJDO]

Hell Yes Razz ! That's music to my ears ! I'm hoping they take a stealthier route for the Gamespot Demo today !

BTW Razz will Sam's knife be back ? I wanna see some cut throat action http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Argonanth]

Originally posted by UbiRazz:
You could easily do the whole E3 demo (except the last section) without killing anyone by using the darkness, Last Known Position and many other tools at Sam's disposal. We'll do a walkthrough of this soon I'm sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thank you for the reply. This makes me a lot happier http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Stealth_chill]

Im liking the sound of it more and more each hour but there is a few problems. There are many elements that will rip me out and prevent me from being immersed. Specifically the "going to black and white when you are fully hidden".

I hate that. This is what tehy did in Ridd1ck sort of and i thought it was stupid.

The game seems more arcady to me. Can we change this? Too late? Darn http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by Stealth_chill:
Im liking the sound of it more and more each hour but there is a few problems. There are many elements that will rip me out and prevent me from being immersed. Specifically the "going to black and white when you are fully hidden".

I hate that. This is what tehy did in Ridd1ck sort of and i thought it was stupid.

The game seems more arcady to me. Can we change this? Too late? Darn http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif It could be worse. He could glow purple. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Blurzz]

The only part I saw that seemed impossible to be stealthy was the very end when you have to grab the guy.

[simulacra]

Well, we dont know, if you grab the guy the enemies in the room might not shoot him since he seems to be the boss, after that the 3E forces will bust through and they'll probably only have their guns trained on Sam when he gives up.

I still see multiple ways of playing this game, stealthily or aggressively in the videos we've seen so far.