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TurkeyVulture
01-30-2006, 06:36 PM
I'm fairly new to this forum and really appreciate the collective wisdom here, now I have a philosophical/practical question:

What does this groups think about navigating with the map off in carrier ops?

Does anyone do realistic nav using chronometer, compass, speeds, protractor? I just began tinkering around with this idea in some single missions, using a round compas rose plotter--SORT OF like with the plotting boards used by carrier pilots. Obviously it's a little easier given there's no wind vectors to figure in, and you don't use complex formulas as the flight world is flat in the sim, long and lat can be built into a mission along with a point option for return. I've found it great fun to track down a carrier in bad weather and/or distant missions without using the map--but I may be alone in this.

TurkeyVulture
01-30-2006, 06:36 PM
I'm fairly new to this forum and really appreciate the collective wisdom here, now I have a philosophical/practical question:

What does this groups think about navigating with the map off in carrier ops?

Does anyone do realistic nav using chronometer, compass, speeds, protractor? I just began tinkering around with this idea in some single missions, using a round compas rose plotter--SORT OF like with the plotting boards used by carrier pilots. Obviously it's a little easier given there's no wind vectors to figure in, and you don't use complex formulas as the flight world is flat in the sim, long and lat can be built into a mission along with a point option for return. I've found it great fun to track down a carrier in bad weather and/or distant missions without using the map--but I may be alone in this.

Zeus-cat
01-30-2006, 09:46 PM
My squad did a little bit of full real on the Normandy map. Some of us were quite good at navigating using speed and time, but we have never really tried it with a carrier.

We have tried it with enemy ships. I created some coop missions where one side had to locate an enemy carrier or submarine given only a general idea where the ship is. Tough and fun.

The biggest problem that I see is the typical user mission is too short in the game to make it challenging. You probably only go out 15-20 minutes instead of several hours or more like they did in real life. Being off a few degrees or a few miles per hour over a 20 minute period is a minor error and not enough to throw you off in the game.

However, bad weather would make it a lot tougher to find the carrier.

You could try my "Straight and True" campaign, listed below, for some torpedo bomber missions where you have to search for the enemy ships.

Tully__
01-30-2006, 10:59 PM
If you want to make it REALLY challenging, you give them a goal in the briefing but only 6 waypoints:

1. Takeoff.
2. 5km off the bow, turn left 90 degrees
3. 5km forward of bow and 1km left, turn left 90 degrees
4. 5km behind stern and 1km to port, turn left 90 degrees
5. 5km behind stern, turn left 90 degrees
6. Landing


Then it doesn't matter if they have minimap path on or off, they HAVE to navigate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Mind you for the really easy settings they still have minimap icons and can see where everything is anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Maraz_5SA
01-31-2006, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TurkeyVulture:
I'm fairly new to this forum and really appreciate the collective wisdom here, now I have a philosophical/practical question:

What does this groups think about navigating with the map off in carrier ops?

Does anyone do realistic nav using chronometer, compass, speeds, protractor? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this think of navigation is called dead reckoning.

It's easier in IL-2 than in real life cause we have no wind modeled.

I always fly without map icons and without map path so I often have to use this kind of navigation.

Maraz

Dunkelgrun
01-31-2006, 03:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TurkeyVulture:
I'm fairly new to this forum and really appreciate the collective wisdom here, now I have a philosophical/practical question:

What does this groups think about navigating with the map off in carrier ops?

Does anyone do realistic nav using chronometer, compass, speeds, protractor? I just began tinkering around with this idea in some single missions, using a round compas rose plotter--SORT OF like with the plotting boards used by carrier pilots. Obviously it's a little easier given there's no wind vectors to figure in, and you don't use complex formulas as the flight world is flat in the sim, long and lat can be built into a mission along with a point option for return. I've found it great fun to track down a carrier in bad weather and/or distant missions without using the map--but I may be alone in this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Our squad always fly with map icons off in 'serious' missions, and I suggested the same for my 'Hurricats' campaign (as all missions except one were made on the Coral Sea map there is no land reference anyway).

I love the challenge of navigation, I used to be a mapmaker after all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif; the relief of coming across the fleet after a worrying flight home is such a great feeling. Immersion? You bet! I really, really hate being lost.

Cheers!

Flying_Nutcase
01-31-2006, 09:52 AM
This is a great and under-discussed topic IMHO.

I love manual navigation and recently acquired an E6B rotary slide-rule flight computer to add to the immersion. An analog stopwatch is next for timing between waypoints. Yes, 'real' analog not a "beep beep" digital timer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Piper, my coop flight leader, real-life pilot and navigation 'freak' got me onto the E6B. They're great! And he now incorporates magnetic-variation into his mission briefs which will probably give me a headache or two, but it's all good stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Manual navigation? Thumbs up to that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Dunkelgrun
01-31-2006, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flying_Nutcase:
This is a great and under-discussed topic IMHO.

I love manual navigation and recently acquired an E6B rotary slide-rule flight computer to add to the immersion. An analog stopwatch is next for timing between waypoints. Yes, 'real' analog not a "beep beep" digital timer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Piper, my coop flight leader, real-life pilot and navigation 'freak' got me onto the E6B. They're great! And he now incorporates magnetic-variation into his mission briefs which will probably give me a headache or two, but it's all good stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Manual navigation? Thumbs up to that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Just how sad are we getting? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I've bought one (E6B) too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

My only problem being that I learnt to use the thing about thirty years ago and can't work it now. You don't have a manual/instructions by any chance Nutcase?

Cheers!

TurkeyVulture
01-31-2006, 02:00 PM
Glad to hear that others have already gone beyond the small adventure I've taken. What's an E6B? Magnetic variation in missions?... I need to work my way up to that.

I'm primarily talking about missions over water, longer than 20 minutes out, or less with low visibility--I don't use dead reckoning alone, there is a system with lat and long incorporated into missions, no waypoints for players flight--just positions--no map icons, don't look at the map, just your own plot:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/Turkey_Vulture/plottingchart.jpg

Flying_Nutcase
02-01-2006, 12:39 AM
Dunkelgrun,

I'm no expert on using the E6B (it's a pity wind isn't modelled), but here's the take for the basic speed/distance/time stuff:

http://www.jumpintojapan.com/images/misc/e6b.jpg

The pic is of the same model of E6B that I have. Unfortunately, the position of the dial isn't the best for an example. Anyway here goes...

SITUATION:
Known: airspeed and distance.
Unknown: Time.

i) Line up the big inner arrow with the speed (outer ring). In the pic it's pointing to just over 600 km/hr.

ii) Find the distance on the same outer ring. If the leg is 40 km then line find 40 on the outer ring.

iii) To get the time for the leg, read the inner ring that lines up with the distance on the outer ring. In the case of 600 km/h and 40 km, it's 4 minutes.

-----
If you know 2 out of 3, the other can be found.

You should make an 'order of magnitude' calculation before using it so you dont fly for 40 minutes when you should be flying for 4, for example. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

-----

In BoB, I'm sure that wind will be modelled. It would be great to have magnetic variation modelled too, then we'd really be cook'n. Just like the real fing. Way cool. But even as it is now, manual navigation just adds sooooo much to gameplay. &lt;-- preaching to the choir http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Printing out a map section and calculating the required bearings, determining relevant landmarks and creating simple escape strategies like "If all goes to hell, get the sun on ya 5 o'clock and blast it outta there." is so cool I want to poo my pants. Oh, mummy! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Now has sad is THAT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PS Another useful function is converting km to miles. Find the K.M. arrow on the outer ring and the STAT. arrow on the outer ring. Line up say 40 (km) under the K.M. arrow and read the miles under the STAT. arrow. The answer? About 24.5 miles.

Miles to km is just the opposite. Easy. Feet to meters is another goodie, or vice-versa. In that case, use FT. on the outer ring (2 o'clock in the pic) and METERS on the inner ring (8 o'clock in the pic).

TurkeyVulture
02-01-2006, 08:03 AM
guess I'm springing for one of those... damn sims are breaking me with all their accessories--flight computers, video cards, new processor, more and bigger monitors... hey, why don't I just fly for real? cost 'bout the same, and I'm almost ready.

Dunkelgrun
02-02-2006, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm no expert on using the E6B (it's a pity wind isn't modelled), but here's the take for the basic speed/distance/time stuff:



The pic is of the same model of E6B that I have. Unfortunately, the position of the dial isn't the best for an example. Anyway here goes...

SITUATION:
Known: airspeed and distance.
Unknown: Time.

i) Line up the big inner arrow with the speed (outer ring). In the pic it's pointing to just over 600 km/hr.

ii) Find the distance on the same outer ring. If the leg is 40 km then line find 40 on the outer ring.

iii) To get the time for the leg, read the inner ring that lines up with the distance on the outer ring. In the case of 600 km/h and 40 km, it's 4 minutes.

-----
If you know 2 out of 3, the other can be found.

You should make an 'order of magnitude' calculation before using it so you dont fly for 40 minutes when you should be flying for 4, for example.

-----

In BoB, I'm sure that wind will be modelled. It would be great to have magnetic variation modelled too, then we'd really be cook'n. Just like the real fing. Way cool. But even as it is now, manual navigation just adds sooooo much to gameplay. &lt;-- preaching to the choir

Printing out a map section and calculating the required bearings, determining relevant landmarks and creating simple escape strategies like "If all goes to hell, get the sun on ya 5 o'clock and blast it outta there." is so cool I want to poo my pants. Oh, mummy! Now has sad is THAT

PS Another useful function is converting km to miles. Find the K.M. arrow on the outer ring and the STAT. arrow on the outer ring. Line up say 40 (km) under the K.M. arrow and read the miles under the STAT. arrow. The answer? About 24.5 miles.

Miles to km is just the opposite. Easy. Feet to meters is another goodie, or vice-versa. In that case, use FT. on the outer ring (2 o'clock in the pic) and METERS on the inner ring (8 o'clock in the pic). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks FN http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif, I'll have a go with it later today.

Cheers!

Browning50cal
02-06-2006, 11:59 AM
Anybody know what size the grid squares are on the maps in Il2 PF? This is a great medium for learng the concepts of simple navigation.

I still have my Grandpa's old E6-B. I plan to use it when I fly in the future.

B50

Dunkelgrun
02-06-2006, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Browning50cal:
Anybody know what size the grid squares are on the maps in Il2 PF? This is a great medium for learng the concepts of simple navigation.

I still have my Grandpa's old E6-B. I plan to use it when I fly in the future.

B50 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


In the main you are looking at 10x10 km; eg AN15 is a 10x10, so is B6. Dogfight maps are much smaller than the 'scenario' type, thus have less grid squares but it's still basically 10x10 that you see.
You can zoom in much closer than this, and the numbers that you see when zoomed in refer to kms; ie 210.0 is 210 kms from the false origin.

Cheers!

zoinks_
02-06-2006, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
If you want to make it REALLY challenging, you give them a goal in the briefing but only 6 waypoints:

1. Takeoff.
2. 5km off the bow, turn left 90 degrees
3. 5km forward of bow and 1km left, turn left 90 degrees
4. 5km behind stern and 1km to port, turn left 90 degrees
5. 5km behind stern, turn left 90 degrees
6. Landing


Then it doesn't matter if they have minimap path on or off, they HAVE to navigate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Mind you for the really easy settings they still have minimap icons and can see where everything is anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

pretty good Tully. i'll have to try this and see if i can find my way home.

best navigation i have seen used in a pc game is b17ii; the mighty 8th. for those that never saw that game, the minimap is exactly the same(with the exception of size). it had a moving icon but the twist was that you had to click&drag the icon to the position you thought you were - which meant looking out the window and spotting landmarks, towns, rivers, roads, etc. to get a fix on where you were. and you had to periodically keep adjusting or get lost. it was brilliant and realistic.

CKY_86
02-07-2006, 02:29 AM
normally i fly with mini map path on but i did have a go on a full real server & had a blast using landmarks, roads & tacks to find my target. i missed my target but i was pleased that i got there. on the way back to base i got a bit lost but found a river & followed that home.

Maraz_5SA
02-07-2006, 07:39 AM
For those interested, I found a PDF containing a printable E6-B:

http://www.ben.com/flying/e6b/

and instruction to use it:

http://www.gleim.com/aviation/computerinstructions.php

Does someone know if such a thing, but using metric units, does exist?

Maraz