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Realjambo
02-17-2007, 01:32 AM
Truk Lagoon, also known as Chuuk, is a sheltered body of water almost fifty miles long by thirty miles wide surrounded by a protective reef. Northeast of Australia, it is located mid-ocean at 7 degrees North latitude. The area consists of 11 major islands, and many smaller ones within the lagoon and is known today as the Chuuk islands, part of the Federated States of Micronesia in the Pacific Ocean. Its first colonial experience was as part of the Spanish Empire, then control was shifted to Germany after the Spanish-American War. It became a Japanese possession under a mandate from the League of Nations following Germany's defeat in World War I.

During World War II, Truk Lagoon served as the forward anchorage for the Japanese Imperial Fleet. The place was considered the most formidable of all Japanese strongholds in the Pacific. On the various islands, the Japanese Civil Engineering Department and Naval Construction Department had roads, trenches, bunkers and caves dug. Five airstrips, seaplane bases, a torpedo boat station, submarine repair shops, a communications center and a radar station were constructed during the war. Protecting these various facilities were coastal defense guns and mortar emplacements. At anchor in the lagoon were the Japanese Navy's giant battleships, aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, tankers, cargo ships, tugboats, gunboats, minesweepers, landing craft, and submarines.
Downed airmen on an OS2U near Truk await rescue

In 1969, the famous French oceanographer, Jacques Cousteau and his team explored Truk Lagoon. Following Cousteau's 1971 television documentary about the lagoon and its ghostly remains, the place became a scuba diving paradise, drawing wreck diving enthusiasts from around the world to see its numerous and virtually intact sunken ships. Scattered mainly around the Dublon, Eten, Fefan and Uman islands within the Truk group, a number of the shipwrecks lie in crystal clear waters less than fifteen meters below the surface. In waters devoid of normal ocean currents, divers can easily swim across decks littered with gas masks and depth charges and below deck can be found numerous human remains. In the massive ship holds are row upon row of fighter aircraft, tanks, bulldozers, railroad cars, motorcycles, torpedoes, mines, bombs, boxes of munitions, radios, plus thousands of other weapons, spare parts, and other artifacts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/SanFranciscoMaru61.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/sakiinriodejaniero.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/Paul_Tank_SFM.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/nissantrucks.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/fumizuki_scar.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/fumizuki.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/bettybomber.jpg

Celeon999
02-17-2007, 01:36 AM
Very good photos and informations http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

RedTerex
02-17-2007, 02:06 AM
Nice post realjambo and thanks for giving more information about the Truk Atoll for the members in here. Great photos too, great find ! I am also highlighting this area in threads as it will be important in gameplay.

Yes indeed, ships full of tanks, trucks, guns etc all brand new on their way from the factory to the front line, mostly never got there lol...sunk by USAF or more importantly a Tench/Gato/Baleo class Sub http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ref these photos. see how the trucks are still intact, albeit surface rust and the wood work has rotted away.....
Some people are always in awe that tanks and guns etc are so much intact and havent rusted away to unrecognisable hulks when under water for 60 years. Well the answer is....pre-fallout steel.

All things made of steel prior to 1945 have zero radiation within the molecules of steel and this makes rust very hard to form. When in 1945 and for many years after so many atomic bombs were blasted above ground they deposited radition into the ecosystem, atmosphere etc that is still there today ( it helps us get cancer a lot quicker too )

Ok so its so many parts per billion, but this doesnt matter the fact is..its there where is wasnt before and it effects steel.

This radiation is everywhere it will stay with us for the next 1000 years or so. It gets into metal, in the smelting proccess for example and thats why steel rusts so quick the radiation helps it...prior to 1945 it didnt !

pre-fallout steel is valuable in a way its like stainless steel, but all of it is under the sea lol.

This is also why the titanics super structure is still relatively solid..pre fall out steel !

schwarze_Katze
02-17-2007, 02:56 AM
I will certainly be visiting Truk during gameplay (probably to the detriment of my mission orders). However, I'm not so keen on the modern description that you found RJ.

No offense to you intended at all, but whatever site you got that info from needs some advertising work. "Decks littered with gas masks and depth charges and below deck can be found numerous human remains" should not be any diver's cup of tea.

Those are war graves and should be respected as such. Aside from the danger of explosives that still might be active in the depth charges, nobody should be entering those ships and disturbing the "numerous human remains." They deserve to rest in peace honorably just like any nation's warriors.

It seems to me that the current inhabitants of Truk/Chuuk have absolutely no respect for fallen warriors and are using dead Japanese as a tourist attraction. While the pics you found are fantastic, that place is crossed off my list as a vacation spot. The pics are great, but the text makes my skin crawl. I might be totally off-base in my thinking, but it's my first impression.

RedTerex, I assume you're serious about radiation in the atmosphere enhancing the oxidation of metal. Do you have a source for that? It's a part of physics that I've never researched before, so I'd be interested in some information if you have some links to back it.

Realjambo
02-17-2007, 03:17 AM
No offence taken taken, I agree with you Schwarze_Katz in that the whole area is a war grave. During my photo search I did come across some pictures where divers had deliberately piled up some skulls they had found on the seabed - I of course chose not to post that!

I used to dive, and I certainly wouldn't want to dive where there are human remains, but I can understand the attraction of the wrecks themselves to divers, especially in such good clear waters. Would I dive at Truk? No.

I do understand that taking anything from the wrecks is strictly illegal so at least that's a step in the right direction towards respect for the fallen.

RedTerex
02-17-2007, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by schwarze_Katze:
RedTerex, I assume you're serious about radiation in the atmosphere enhancing the oxidation of metal. Do you have a source for that? It's a part of physics that I've never researched before, so I'd be interested in some information if you have some links to back it.

Yes its true, steel proccessed before 1945 is 'cleaner' and not as prone to rust. The Titanic is still very very slowly rusting away but not at the rate it would be rusting if it had been made after 1945, in fact apart from 'rusticles' and surface rust, the steel plates on the Titanic are still strong....pre fallout steel !

Cars and any surface items made from steel prior to 1945 still rust...slowly due to them being exposed to the trace radiation in the air. Where-as ship wrecks and submarines made prior to 1945 at the bottom of the sea are still radiation free.

The 74 or so scuttled warships in Scapa Flow are all pre fallout steel made and this base metal is worth more than post 1945 steel. Some ships steel was salvaged and sold to high bidders a few years ago for medical and scientific instruments etc.

I havent got any links or sources as I just know about this but if you google say "pre 1945 steel" or "radiation free steel" you might find more information on this.

You learn something new every day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Realjambo
02-17-2007, 05:58 AM
Truk from the air during WW2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/antsmith/trukbw.jpg

3.JG51_Molders
02-17-2007, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by RedTerex:
This is also why the titanics super structure is still relatively solid..pre fall out steel !


Very interesting but wasn't the Titanic made from cast iron ? Researchers also say that the Titanic will collapse in on itself within in the next 10-15 years...sad. One thing that amazes me is how many artifacts (benchs, deck chairs...etc) are still very intact and even usable whne you think about how deep the Titanic is...stupid question but why aren't these items simply crushed ?


Those are war graves and should be respected as such.

I highly agree, doesn't the Japanese government or international law have any protection over this site ?

dsheerin
02-17-2007, 09:52 AM
While I recognize it as a war cemetery it doesn't mean I wouldn't want to dive there. In fact I do. However I'll treat as I treat any other cemetery, I'll look, but not touch.


Wreck diving is hobby i've always wanted to get into and hopefully at some point in the future I will...

Realjambo
02-17-2007, 09:53 AM
I highly agree, doesn't the Japanese government or international law have any protection over this site ?
Well I know you can't remove anything from down there.

RedTerex
02-17-2007, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_Molders:

Very interesting but wasn't the Titanic made from cast iron ? Researchers also say that the Titanic will collapse in on itself within in the next 10-15 years...sad. One thing that amazes me is how many artifacts (benchs, deck chairs...etc) are still very intact and even usable whne you think about how deep the Titanic is...stupid question but why aren't these items simply crushed ?


In fact cast iron is even more prone to rust than steel, in that case she should have rusted away by now, but zero trace radiation in the metal will keep her metal relatively intact for another century yet. The superstructure is collapsing due to the weight of water constantly pressing on it, 2 tons per square inch or so, and not directly due to rust !

Benches, chairs, leather boots etc are not crushed because they are not pressure containers. A sealed can of beans or a pop bottle with the lid on for example is a pressure container and will crush. A submarine is also a pressure container....

Karl_Donitz_Jr
02-17-2007, 01:48 PM
Turk Lagoon is all well and good, but I would rather Dive the Atomic Fleet and the Prinz Eugen in the Marshall Islands personally.

For those of you who don't know the Atomic Fleet is otherwise known as the fleet that was sunk at anchor by "Able" and "Baker" Atomic Bombs in ?1946?.

The best Scuba Diving in the world, and the ONLY large German Warship of WW2 that is diveable.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

I am a shipwreck diving fanatic BTW. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif hehe

Pics of the Prinz:

Then:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/other_craft_involved/art/g.../artgermanships.html (http://www.bismarck-class.dk/other_craft_involved/art/germanships/artgermanships.html)

and now:
http://members.pcug.org.au/~eugen/prinz1.htm (http://members.pcug.org.au/%7Eeugen/prinz1.htm)
And during http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.de220.com/Strange%20Stuff/Crossroads/Operation%20Crossroads.htm

turnip_tick
02-17-2007, 03:10 PM
The titanic is not a very good example to use. The single largest reason she shows so little rust is the lack of oxygen. Corrosion needs oxygen to take place. In the real world we all live in, the simplest way to achieve this is to simply paint the metal, thus applying a barrier between the metal and the Oxygen. Another key ingredient is an electrolyte of some sort, Water, dirt, salt etc. The paint acts to shield the metal from both the oxygen and the the water naturally found in our enviroment. However if you could take salt water, remove ninety per cent of the oxygen from it, then you find that carbon based metals such as the type the titanic is made from, would not rust nearly as fast.

As far as the tanks and such in Truk lagoon being in such pristine condition, I personally believe that it is due mostly to the fact that these items are straight from the factory and thus have factory fresh paint jobs. The paint acting as a barrier between electrlyte and O2.

This information comes from being a corrosion control spec. in the USAF for several years in a prior life. I have forgotten more about corrosion than any one ever had the right to know in the first place. There are of course other types of corrosion, and this has been a very simple and quick explanation and have no real desire to teach a class, just saying that the Titanic is in such great shape because of the lack of oxygen. look at photos of the Bismarck, it is heavily rusted exept where the swastika and camo paint is she was also built of pre fallout steel.

Karl_Donitz_Jr
02-18-2007, 03:49 AM
Turnip_tick, the Titanic is more heavily rusted than the Bismarck or Hood for that point. THis is because she has been down on the seabed for 35 odd years longer, has thinner metal, and also the steel used in her construction - while it was the best grade available - was made in a different process to modern steel. The Bismarck liiks in worse condition I admit, but think of the pounding she took before she was scuttle. Alit of that rust will be damaded/bent steel that has ruse on the surface only.

Realjambo
02-20-2007, 05:02 PM
Which lays deeper? Titanic? Bismarck? Hood?

I just wondered. Personally I'd guess the Titanic - given it's position, but I may be wrong...

hueywolf123
02-20-2007, 06:46 PM
I'll try and find it, but there is a pic from Truk lagoon of a Japanese Stokers face, etched into the engine block from the force/heat of a blast.
My friend went diving there a few years ago and saw it up close, apparently there is an eerie feeling when diving down there

Stuntcow
02-20-2007, 10:04 PM
I know that Titanic is 2.5 miles down and Bismarck is 3-3.5 miles down. Not sure on the Hood.

Liddabit
02-21-2007, 12:05 AM
Did the Allies sink all that? Is that why there is so many human remains?Must have been a huge battle if they attacked the japanese strongest naval position !

Jose.MaC
02-21-2007, 10:06 AM
Sometimes, you have to send your bombers in almost suicide missions to avoid major damage to your fleet, you know.