Mining system

[Salventus]

When I played extra large maps in H3 and H4, I use to end up with flagging mines that were in enemy territory all the way at the other end of the map. Capturing mines should be a bit harder than ususal, you should only be able to capture mines to proximity of captured towns. Some sort of radius of supply lines near your town and they should be visible so we can attack those supply lines. This way the expansion of your forces follow logically throughout the map. So in order to capture mines that are far away from your castles you need first to capture that far away enemy castle so that you can benefit the mining supply.

[Nervous]

Maybe the mine could give less resources if itâ´s far from a town you own, sice you can lose something on the way. If the mine is 4 day distance from nearest town, or less, 1 resource each day. 8 days distance, 1 resource each 2 days, or something like that.

Anothe interesting thing is that your hero colect a resource needed to build something, he is far from the town, but you can use that resource to build. Shouldnâ´t him take the resource to the town?

[Salventus]

Originally posted by Nervous:
Maybe the mine could give less resources if itâ´s far from a town you own, sice you can lose something on the way. If the mine is 4 day distance from nearest town, or less, 1 resource each day. 8 days distance, 1 resource each 2 days, or something like that.

Anothe interesting thing is that your hero colect a resource needed to build something, he is far from the town, but you can use that resource to build. Shouldnâ´t him take the resource to the town?

Interesting ideas and combined with my idea of a radius of supply lines with be good. Also, if a mine is isolated and there is no known route to your castle then it shoudn't be possible to reap the benefits. Yes the Hero should transport treasures to the castle, maybe make a hero just for that.

[the_Gagis]

Heroes isnt supposed to be superrealistic. heroes is supposed to be fun

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

nice ideas. I also put one out there about mines a while back too. I'd like to see them design mines that can either colapse or have a set amount of resources in it and allow it to run out. Similar to the old gold mines from the Warcraft series.

[Polaris2013]

The thing that has made Heroes one of the most successful TBS series of all time is that it is also one of the simplest.

Adding complexity just for the hell of it rarely benefits games (except simulations). Think about your favorite games and how long it took you to learn them.

[JoostJens]

I just hope that when you defeat a player all his mines (the one that he still owns) will be said to neutral again like in HOMM III.

[Salventus]

Originally posted by Polaris2013:
The thing that has made Heroes one of the most successful TBS series of all time is that it is also one of the simplest.

Adding complexity just for the hell of it rarely benefits games (except simulations). Think about your favorite games and how long it took you to learn them.
This idea is hardly complicating the game and in fact I think it's simplying it. The fact that your not going to be able to capture a mine miles away all the way to the other side of the map makes it easier for players.

[NailagCiad]

Originally posted by Salventus:
This idea is hardly complicating the game and in fact I think it's simplying it. The fact that your not going to be able to capture a mine miles away all the way to the other side of the map makes it easier for players.

How? By having to check if a mine is within your radius or not? I don't see the point of it. Explain why it's bad to be able to capture mines far away from your town.

[I.G]

Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s: I'd like to see them design mines that can either colapse or have a set amount of resources in it and allow it to run out.


Nooooo. This is a bad, bad idea. It discourages a long game, and could make a stalemate if both sides run out of mines. In the Warcraft series, where hiding in a base is discouraged, this is a good idea, because you need to keep looking for mines, but in Heroes there is no reason to do that.

[Salventus]

Originally posted by NailagCiad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Salventus:
This idea is hardly complicating the game and in fact I think it's simplying it. The fact that your not going to be able to capture a mine miles away all the way to the other side of the map makes it easier for players.

How? By having to check if a mine is within your radius or not? I don't see the point of it. Explain why it's bad to be able to capture mines far away from your town. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have to really check it, the computer will automatically resolve it for you depending on how advanced or how big your civilization is. The bigger it is the larger the radius gets, I just didn't see how you can capture a mine in enemy territory and at times I even kept it for months without the AI realizing or even a human player that I had captured a mine right next or close to his castle. The logic has to do with the resources to invest in for actually transporting the mine to your own depository in your castle. The further away the longer and more expensive it should take for you to reap the benefits from that mine. Also, I think each castle has to have it's own resources and having the option to transfer these resources from one castle to another. It's just a bit more micromanagement but I can live with it. It's not complicating things it's just making it more logical. Also, I often had mines so isolated and surrounded by impassable terrain that I had to use fly spell (H3) to capture it. So logically how can I benefit from that mine???

[Monteniger]

Originally posted by I.G:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s: I'd like to see them design mines that can either colapse or have a set amount of resources in it and allow it to run out.


Nooooo. This is a bad, bad idea. It discourages a long game, and could make a stalemate if both sides run out of mines. In the Warcraft series, where hiding in a base is discouraged, this is a good idea, because you need to keep looking for mines, but in Heroes there is no reason to do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it would be quite interesting.And in heroes you have marketplaces to trade and more resourses.Becises in the late in the game all you need is money and one resourse.
Really like salventus & nervous Idea mix http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

Originally posted by I.G:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s: I'd like to see them design mines that can either colapse or have a set amount of resources in it and allow it to run out.


Nooooo. This is a bad, bad idea. It discourages a long game, and could make a stalemate if both sides run out of mines. In the Warcraft series, where hiding in a base is discouraged, this is a good idea, because you need to keep looking for mines, but in Heroes there is no reason to do that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummm....how exactly is it a bad idea? Go back and think about a long heroes game for a second. Do you really USE those rare resources except to buy your level 7 troops? What about wood and ore? After you finish building your towns, they become fairly redundant. Besides, I'm not talking about having them run out quickly. I'm also not talking about having them all be the same amounts either. In my opinion, what this does is force the players to play more aggressively or with a more expansionist attitude. You'll have to explore to find those mines you need.

In a side note, we could also bring back the ability to either transfer troops to guard a mine from enemy heroes or we could bring back the old h2 spells "Set Earth Guardian". I think I'd prefer the h3 method here though, with mine garrisons. I just think we could make the aspects of mines more interesting and important in the game. Not more complicated...simply more variety.

[Marcusml333]

All of this seems like a very, very bad idea. Why is an A.I. not knowing you captured one of its mines a bad thing? I think that's one of the many, various fun things in the HoMM series. And besides that, i'm against too much realism in games like HoMM V. I see a reason why games like Battlefield 1942/Vietnam/2, Gran Turismo 1/2/3/4 and Age of Empires 1/2/3 have to be realistic, but not HoMM. Of course realism should not be underrated, but definately not overrated either. This is just another crusade for realism in HoMM.

[Salventus]

And besides that, i'm against too much realism in games like HoMM V. I see a reason why games like Battlefield 1942/Vietnam/2, Gran Turismo 1/2/3/4 and Age of Empires 1/2/3 have to be realistic, but not HoMM. Of course realism should not be underrated, but definately not overrated either. This is just another crusade for realism in HoMM.

What do you mean by realism? I'm talking a bit of logic. It won't hurt the game.

[Salventus]

Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
ummm....how exactly is it a bad idea? Go back and think about a long heroes game for a second. Do you really USE those rare resources except to buy your level 7 troops? What about wood and ore? After you finish building your towns, they become fairly redundant. Besides, I'm not talking about having them run out quickly. I'm also not talking about having them all be the same amounts either. In my opinion, what this does is force the players to play more aggressively or with a more expansionist attitude. You'll have to explore to find those mines you need.

In a side note, we could also bring back the ability to either transfer troops to guard a mine from enemy heroes or we could bring back the old h2 spells "Set Earth Guardian". I think I'd prefer the h3 method here though, with mine garrisons. I just think we could make the aspects of mines more interesting and important in the game. Not more complicated...simply more variety.
I mostly agree with you except for the fact about guarding mines it was a bit touchy for me. What I mean is that I personally never wasted troops to guard mines since at the end-game the enemy forces became so powerfull that it was easy to capture mines even if they were guarded. And in the early game, you want to build your troops and not wasted on newly captured mines so I never founded usefull to guard mines. Never saw the point. All I did is re-capture the mines the enemy took. That is why with the system I have in mind enables capturing mines to be more difficult and once captured, it would be easy to keep.

[memetics]

Originally posted by Nervous:
Maybe the mine could give less resources if itâ´s far from a town you own...
That makes more sense than making the mines harder to capture. Mines in enemy territory are already harder to capture simply because there are more enemy heroes in the area that could elect to attack you. If there aren't, then the enemy's weakness means that the mines are easier to capture. If you want your mines harder to capture, leave a hero nearby, or leave a garrison. (More on that, below.)

Who mines the resources? Someone does - resources don't mine and transport themselves. I don't think supply lines are necessary, but a decrease in the resources produced at distant mines would make sense. Overall, I agree that increasing the logic and realism in some ways is good, even though Heroes V doesn't have to become Warcraft: there needs to be a good balance between logic and playability, realism and simplicity.


Originally posted by Nervous:
Anothe interesting thing is that your hero colect a resource needed to build something, he is far from the town, but you can use that resource to build. Shouldnâ´t him take the resource to the town?
The same process that gets resources from the mine to the town(s) would work here, methinks. It *would* be interesting, though, if you had to pack around all the gold and resources you'd picked up, since an enemy might then be able to recover them from you.


Originally posted by Salventus:
... I just didn't see how you can capture a mine in enemy territory and at times I even kept it for months without the AI realizing or even a human player that I had captured a mine right next or close to his castle.
You should know when a mine is captured - the resources are no longer flowing; i.e., whoever had been bringing them to town (the invisible peasants) should tell you, "hey, the enemy captured the mine and is making us work for them now."

Sometimes, I think the AI was just ignoring the lost mine to deal with other priorities. When one of my mines was captured by the enemy, though, sometimes I didn't spot (and correct) the problem for many turns. To solve this, maybe you just need a specific notification from the interface when one of your mines is captured - maybe in a written turn summary / report. I agree with Salventus, however, that it would make sense for distance from your nearest town to be a factor in the resource generation, but I like Nervous' idea better: reducing the resources the mine generates, based on the distance.


Originally posted by Salventus:
... Also, I think each castle has to have it's own resources and having the option to transfer these resources from one castle to another.
I suppose this would work something like supply lines, too... which would make sense, but it also makes me think that, yes, we're introducing too much micro-management into a game that already is time-consuming to play.


Originally posted by Salventus:
I personally never wasted troops to guard mines ...
I never used the garrison idea either, for those very reasons. I liked it in theory, and I figured that eventually, if I had a garrison, some scout would come along and be caught by surprise, but it happened so rarely that it was a better use of troops to just keep them in my army and re-take the mine as necessary.

[Aseved]

Far Away Mines:

Like many others, I agree with Nervous suggestion of reduced income to mines, but not zero.

Transporting Resources:

I always had an idea around my mind on wich resources would be treated exactly like creatures: they would be stored in the mines, and you would have to bring a hero there to take them to the town that needs them. However, it would add a lot of micromanagement, while still looks cool, now I do not think it would be good.

Mines Running out

No, thanks. As said, discourages a long game / brings stalemate situations, and there is nothing more discouraging to play another game than to run out of resources when you were winning and lose because of this "no more income". I've hated it even in RTS (guess one of the reasons why RoN is my favourite), so I would hate it more in TBS.

I can live, however, with "depleted" mines, sort like the Vespene geysers of Starcraft. Once certain amount of the resource has been obtained from the mine, the income rate reduces to half or a quarter of the initial value. This will still leave you getting resources (that you may need - I do not agree mines are not necessary at the end of the game - and what I would do is to make them more necessary, in any case), but forcing to look around for "better" places, and also would not make the map reach a point were there are no resources available to anyone...

[memetics]

I'd agree with the reduced-output mine idea as a good option for mines. Then again, with mines producing one unit per turn, would they give half-units, or would they just not produce on some turns? Or would all unit values have to be increased (so a sulfur mine produces four sulfur per turn at first, yet a creature that would have cost gold plus 1 sulfur now costs 4)? This is where we get into increasing the complexity of the game. But I still think it's a good idea.

[Zimmymasaki]

Mines don't produce less as they get further away from a town though, they produce the same amount its just transport times are longer. I would say it would be ok to put mine depletion in but not so you couldn't use them anymore. So for a crystal mine were you usually get 1 a day, after a while it goes to 1 every 2 days. That way you still earn less but you never run completly out of resources. Personally i don't mind the heroes 3 mining system at all though.

[Marcusml333]

Originally posted by Salventus:
What do you mean by realism? I'm talking a bit of logic. It won't hurt the game.

Well... Then not too much logic then. I think logic and realism are two very close things, even though they're not the same. Tricking tje A.I. is one of the fun things in the game, as i said before. Also someone in this forum said something about simplicity, and that it was what made the HoMM series popular (among other things, of course). That simplicity should also be kept, but of course, not too much simplicity either. I'd be a bit irritated at too many rules too.

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

Originally posted by Salventus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
ummm....how exactly is it a bad idea? Go back and think about a long heroes game for a second. Do you really USE those rare resources except to buy your level 7 troops? What about wood and ore? After you finish building your towns, they become fairly redundant. Besides, I'm not talking about having them run out quickly. I'm also not talking about having them all be the same amounts either. In my opinion, what this does is force the players to play more aggressively or with a more expansionist attitude. You'll have to explore to find those mines you need.

In a side note, we could also bring back the ability to either transfer troops to guard a mine from enemy heroes or we could bring back the old h2 spells "Set Earth Guardian". I think I'd prefer the h3 method here though, with mine garrisons. I just think we could make the aspects of mines more interesting and important in the game. Not more complicated...simply more variety.
I mostly agree with you except for the fact about guarding mines it was a bit touchy for me. What I mean is that I personally never wasted troops to guard mines since at the end-game the enemy forces became so powerfull that it was easy to capture mines even if they were guarded. And in the early game, you want to build your troops and not wasted on newly captured mines so I never founded usefull to guard mines. Never saw the point. All I did is re-capture the mines the enemy took. That is why with the system I have in mind enables capturing mines to be more difficult and once captured, it would be easy to keep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I also never used my own troops to guard my mines. But then again, they were not as important as I'd like them to be. That's also the reason I mentioned bringing back the h2 set guardian spells. That eliminates that hesitation of sacrificing troops to guard mines.

[NailagCiad]

Originally posted by Salventus:
You don't have to really check it, the computer will automatically resolve it for you depending on how advanced or how big your civilization is. The bigger it is the larger the radius gets, I just didn't see how you can capture a mine in enemy territory and at times I even kept it for months without the AI realizing or even a human player that I had captured a mine right next or close to his castle. The logic has to do with the resources to invest in for actually transporting the mine to your own depository in your castle. The further away the longer and more expensive it should take for you to reap the benefits from that mine. Also, I think each castle has to have it's own resources and having the option to transfer these resources from one castle to another. It's just a bit more micromanagement but I can live with it. It's not complicating things it's just making it more logical. Also, I often had mines so isolated and surrounded by impassable terrain that I had to use fly spell (H3) to capture it. So logically how can I benefit from that mine???

So what you're saying is that the only reason for this change is that 'it's more logical'? Sorry, wrong reason. Heroes isn't a simulator, and shouldn't be. 'Realism/logic' are good supporting arguments, but they aren't enough on their own. And by 'not seeing how you could capture a mine in enemy territory', it's easy- you walk up to it, kill/capture/turn into a skeleton anyone who doesn't want to work for you and place some strongarms there to keep order.

[Real_King_Louis]

Maybe combining the mine and the caravan concept... if a path is unclear, resources will not arrive. If path is clear, resources arrive after a while base on distance (use same algorithm). One in transit, let it come even after path is blocked or just drop it.

Anyhoo... it could work without too much coding... but that would require some management.... is it worth it?

- Kingo with a pick and shovel -

[gravyluvr]

Originally posted by Salventus:
WCapturing mines should be a bit harder than ususal, you should only be able to capture mines to proximity of captured towns.

With that reasoning, you should only be able to attack towns close to yours.

Flagging mines is a part of the game. It's a huge part. I want that sulfer mine or gold mine. If you want it back, you'd better invest in some troops to come and get it!

[Salventus]

Originally posted by gravyluvr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Salventus:
WCapturing mines should be a bit harder than ususal, you should only be able to capture mines to proximity of captured towns.

With that reasoning, you should only be able to attack towns close to yours.

Flagging mines is a part of the game. It's a huge part. I want that sulfer mine or gold mine. If you want it back, you'd better invest in some troops to come and get it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could always capture towns miles away and nothing is stoping you.

[gravyluvr]

Originally posted by Salventus:

You could always capture towns miles away and nothing is stoping you.

My fault... I was being sarcastic. I think that flagging dwelling mines and towns should be allowed far and neer. If it weren't allowed then no one would ever keep up a defense.