Savvy Announcement!

[krazyfrenchman]

Upon learning of Ubisoft's decision and giving US, members, the opportunity in asking questions to the DEV_Team, it really meant in the end that all what WE and I have done for the past 6 months or so finally paid off. We really have a direct channel to ask them questions and I truly hope WE will take advantage of this new means of communication. As long as WE ask intelligent questions and that WE get fair answers in return, all is for the best and I thank UBI for granting us --FINALLY!-- a proper and inclusive dialogue channel.
VISIT THIS THREAD IN GREAT NUMBERS! READ BEFORE POSTING REDUNDANT QUESTIONS... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/4721068706)

The point of this announcement is directly in relation to this "overture" from Ubisoft. I wanted to demonstrate my gratitude towards them for listening to US and here is what I propose. I have been thinking about it for a month or so and I believe that it would be profiting Ubisoft greatly knowing now that the add-on is on the verge of being commercially released.

I need, ladies and gentlemen, SH4 and SH3's enthousiasts alike, your most sincere input about this announcement, LET US BE the very witness of OUR working on a project together!

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Here it is</span>:

Would Ubisoft consider advertising for Christmas and January a Silent Hunter "Platine Edition", <span class="ev_code_red">including</span> SH3 (and its patches and add-ons) <span class="ev_code_red">and</span> SH4 (and its patches), <span class="ev_code_red">but also</span> rewarding the buyer with a 30% discount on any newly released Ubisoft product, <span class="ev_code_red">plus</span> a 25% E-discount (UBI_Store) on SH4's Indian Ocean add-on for pre-ordering (and getting a SH4 long OR short sleeve shirt); <span class="ev_code_yellow">is it</span> highly probable that THEY could succeed in this venture?

Personally, unquestionably <span class="ev_code_yellow">YES</span> as long as they advertise it WHERE their games are displayed!

WELCOME and let's start the discussion!

[krazyfrenchman]

Upon learning of Ubisoft's decision and giving US, members, the opportunity in asking questions to the DEV_Team, it really meant in the end that all what WE and I have done for the past 6 months or so finally paid off. We really have a direct channel to ask them questions and I truly hope WE will take advantage of this new means of communication. As long as WE ask intelligent questions and that WE get fair answers in return, all is for the best and I thank UBI for granting us --FINALLY!-- a proper and inclusive dialogue channel.
VISIT THIS THREAD IN GREAT NUMBERS! READ BEFORE POSTING REDUNDANT QUESTIONS... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/4721068706)

The point of this announcement is directly in relation to this "overture" from Ubisoft. I wanted to demonstrate my gratitude towards them for listening to US and here is what I propose. I have been thinking about it for a month or so and I believe that it would be profiting Ubisoft greatly knowing now that the add-on is on the verge of being commercially released.

I need, ladies and gentlemen, SH4 and SH3's enthousiasts alike, your most sincere input about this announcement, LET US BE the very witness of OUR working on a project together!

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Here it is</span>:

Would Ubisoft consider advertising for Christmas and January a Silent Hunter "Platine Edition", <span class="ev_code_red">including</span> SH3 (and its patches and add-ons) <span class="ev_code_red">and</span> SH4 (and its patches), <span class="ev_code_red">but also</span> rewarding the buyer with a 30% discount on any newly released Ubisoft product, <span class="ev_code_red">plus</span> a 25% E-discount (UBI_Store) on SH4's Indian Ocean add-on for pre-ordering (and getting a SH4 long OR short sleeve shirt); <span class="ev_code_yellow">is it</span> highly probable that THEY could succeed in this venture?

Personally, unquestionably <span class="ev_code_yellow">YES</span> as long as they advertise it WHERE their games are displayed!

WELCOME and let's start the discussion!

[Realjambo]

It's an interesting idea KFM and I don't want to put a negative spin on it, but I doubt it could get be all organised in time for Christmas.

Products aimed at a Christmas season market are normally all worked out and ready mid-summer.

There would be packaging design, printing, disc production, retail pricing to be worked out for different countries, to say nothing of pulling together all the necessary hard data.

But all that said, it could be something for the future, you never know!

[krazyfrenchman]

Thanks RJ, I knew beforehand that it seemed a bit late at first, but up and until the add-on is released (for which at this time we have no official release date) I know that if they want their add-on sold or any of their games sold "in mass", this small idea could actually bring up appreciable or even substantial results, if implemented.

[klcarroll]

I believe KF is correct: ....We can help UBI in their marketing!

Let's participate in supporting the games that we obviously love!

Buy a friend a copy of SH4 or SH3 as a gift!

klcarroll

[Realjambo]

Good idea

I know at least one friend of mine who has been eyeing up all the screenshots of SH3 when ever he visits me. In fact I could buy two copies, as my SH3 disk is looking horribly worn out and scratched - I'd hate it to give up on me late one night when the shops are shut! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think we need a slogan or tag line along the lines of "Happy Christmas - Happy Hunting - A prosperous New Year - and a safe return to port" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

... No , I don't think I'd get hired at a top advertising agency either! Anyone else got any better ideas?

I wonder how many of us can post in this thread who have a friend or family member who would enjoy SH as a present this year? I have two in mind now, my dear old Father (so he could understand why I am always going on about U-Boats and my friend I previously mentioned who I know is interested anyway)

[shadow_858]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krazyfrenchman:
Upon learning of Ubisoft's decision and giving US, members, the opportunity in asking questions to the DEV_Team, it really meant in the end that all what WE and I have done for the past 6 months or so finally paid off. We really have a direct channel to ask them questions and I truly hope WE will take advantage of this new means of communication. As long as WE ask intelligent questions and that WE get fair answers in return, all is for the best and I thank UBI for granting us --FINALLY!-- a proper and inclusive dialogue channel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, this was all done before. There's nothing new here. Ubisoft did this with Silent Hunter 3.

[QUOTE]Almost one year ago, we collected your questions, sent it to the developers, and posted the answers. We've decided to do it again, so feel free to ask any questions to the developers related to the upcoming patch or the add-on. These questions will be collected and sent to the developers. At a later point, we will start posting answers.[QUOTE]


As for the advertising idea; it would need to have been put forward in the early Summer months in order to stand a chance. However, I'm all for folks purchasing the products for friends at Christmas. Anything that increases sales is a good idea.

[krazyfrenchman]

Before I continue on the topic, would you please re-edit your post for the missing "/" in order for your quote to be displayed?

Alright, actually, to start with, SH3 is a bit far off, don't you think? You're going too far back in time...

As for SH4, "Questions to ask to the devs" topics never actually count before the game is released. Furthermore, it never happened here after the release! So it is, near patch v1.4's release, the first time we have a direct channel here. So, this is actually new and it is to the benefit of everyone to have finally an acknowledged and advertised means of communication HERE (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/4721068706).

[snavesuk]

Ubisoft have had the last of my money. Nothing about charging for an upgrade makes me change my mind that the way the SH customer base has been treated was SH...it.

Good luck to all those who really want to throw good money after bad. And luck you will need.

Personally, I would have thought you guys would be smart enough to have learned the lesson, but I guess there's always enough dumb SOB's out there to keep UBI rolling in the dough. It's how they do what they do.

On past record the Addon will be half-assed, half-finished, with several glaring factual errors that should have been discovered at Alpha or Beta and corrected. It will be vastly disappointing on the technical information and manuals front, and will be overpriced for what it will be.

...No, I'm not using my crystal ball to look for'ard, just using the search function to look aft... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are forever doomed to repeat them..."

And as not a single one of us diehards and genuine enthusiasts appears to have been contacted by UBI for play-testing or development, I wouldn't waste your breath talking to them. On past and current achievements they aren't listening, even if they pretend they are.

How soon some of you forget...

[Realjambo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Personally, I would have thought you guys would be smart enough to have learned the lesson, but I guess there's always enough dumb SOB's out there to keep UBI rolling in the dough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair, all we're doing is discussing it my friend - that's only natural and there has been no hard official announcement as to what will be free and what will have to be purchased or confirmed pricing for that matter. There's nothing like a bit of positive thinking. Six months ago these new developments were unthinkable. I think your comment above is a little harsh and sweeping.

[Maverick_U2007]

Lets not go down the line of bashing UBIsoft again, I am actually now 'reasonably' satisfied with the product and also accept that some credit should be given to the modders, but also bear in mind....

Cost of SH3 and SH4 game....around £50, (£100).
The number of hours spent playing it 20 per week by 30 or so weeks I have had them works out less than 10pence per hour and still dropping, then

Price of a DVD watched once £14.99
Going the Pictures for 2 Hours (with the wife) is £8.00 plus meal plus travelling expenses
Sky per month £52

Lets put it into perspective, yes there were issues when it was released but a lot of them have been addressed and are still being addressed.

As for KRAYFRENCHMANS thoughts and ideas, if he 'CAN' communicate with them then it can only be a good thing, if he fails well...'At least he tried' which in my book is time well spent, it is said, 'better to try and fail than not to try at all'.

Give it a go KRAZYFRENCHMAN

Maverick

[shadow_858]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Realjambo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Personally, I would have thought you guys would be smart enough to have learned the lesson, but I guess there's always enough dumb SOB's out there to keep UBI rolling in the dough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair, all we're doing is discussing it my friend - that's only natural and there has been no hard official announcement as to what will be free and what will have to be purchased or confirmed pricing for that matter. There's nothing like a bit of positive thinking. Six months ago these new developments were unthinkable. I think your comment above is a little harsh and sweeping. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

[ken4045]

In short I real have had no real problems with running the game, my problems have been playing the game, like when do missions end, why do we have to do the same mission over and over again? All in all this is the only game I play any more. The other was this sight is a great sight you guys are very helpful thanks to the forum members and UBI

[tambor198]

I've read every post in this thread and it sounds like something I've seen at least 50 times before. I mean no offense to anybody, but do we have to rehash the same things over and over? It is really getting somewhat old.

[klcarroll]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but do we have to rehash the same things over and over? It is really getting somewhat old. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, ....some of the things said here have been said before.

.....And the idea of supporting UBI so that they continue to support us has been aired before too.

....But there is an original question here: Are YOU planning on giving a friend a copy of SH for Christmas??

klcarroll

[tambor198]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but do we have to rehash the same things over and over? It is really getting somewhat old. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, ....some of the things said here have been said before.

.....And the idea of supporting UBI so that they continue to support us has been aired before too.

....But there is an original question here: Are YOU planning on giving a friend a copy of SH for Christmas??

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



All my friends either play mostly FPSs and when asked by me if they would be interested in trying a subsim, I get an emphatic "No". I guess i just have weird friends. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

[klcarroll]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All my friends either play mostly FPSs and when asked by me if they would be interested in trying a subsim, I get an emphatic "No". I guess i just have weird friends. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, ......It sounds as though your friends are quite typical!

...After all, isn't this exactly what the current sales numbers tell us?

But this is precisely my point! ....The fact that we're all here talking about this means that we have come to appreciate that there's more to computer gaming than; BANG! BANG! ....YOU'RE DEAD!

Who else are going to be the "evangelists"� and advocates, ...spreading the word about "True Simulations"�, ....if not us???

klcarroll

[Realjambo]

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

[shadow_858]

In advertising terms, a good way to sell the 'Add On', and therefore by definition more copies of SH4, would be to advertise within the various WWII sub movies that play on the cable channels quite a lot.

Such advertising would not be that expensive and would be seen by folks who love those movies, and who may have no idea that they can experience it for themselves by purchasing a game that they don't even know exists.

[tambor198]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All my friends either play mostly FPSs and when asked by me if they would be interested in trying a subsim, I get an emphatic "No". I guess i just have weird friends. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, ......It sounds as though your friends are quite typical!

...After all, isn't this exactly what the current sales numbers tell us?

But this is precisely my point! ....The fact that we're all here talking about this means that we have come to appreciate that there's more to computer gaming than; BANG! BANG! ....YOU'RE DEAD!

Who else are going to be the "evangelists"� and advocates, ...spreading the word about "True Simulations"�, ....if not us???

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



You do have a point there, klcarroll and there is some merit in the ideas being expressed here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

[snavesuk]

If SH4 was half the game it could be, 1/4 the game the pre-release lies were telling us it was supposed to be, or even 1/10th as complete in both word and deed as it SHOULD have been, I would have no trouble recommending it to my friends.

As it is, three patches down and one to go and there are still more than enough fundamental errors that I have a hard time justifying it to myself, much less the unconverted.

If UBI were 1/1000th the company we'd like them to be the addon would be priced at near-nothing. Consider it their way of saying `sorry`... Wonder how likely that is, eh? And if there is a single fix or improvement in there that is not included in Patch 1.4, then it is high time to sue.

Meantime, I have nothing to say or feel sorry about insofar as the dumb SOB's are concerned. Clearly they are too stupid to realise, so why defend the indefensible? It's not harsh, it's tough love. The message remains: Wise up, or get fleeced again.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[klcarroll]

snavesuk;

The "Bitter, Burned, and Cynical" routine will only play for so long!

Ask yourself this: Are you here because you want your fifty bucks back, or are you here because you want to get whatever this "Work-In-Progress" turns out to be?

...Or to put it in more basic terms: Are you just a general "gamer" or are you a "SubSimmer"??

BTW...The console games are found in Aisles 1 thru 8.

klcarroll

[shadow_858]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by snavesuk:
If SH4 was half the game it could be, 1/4 the game the pre-release lies were telling us it was supposed to be, or even 1/10th as complete in both word and deed as it SHOULD have been, I would have no trouble recommending it to my friends.

As it is, three patches down and one to go and there are still more than enough fundamental errors that I have a hard time justifying it to myself, much less the unconverted.

If UBI were 1/1000th the company we'd like them to be the addon would be priced at near-nothing. Consider it their way of saying `sorry`... Wonder how likely that is, eh? And if there is a single fix or improvement in there that is not included in Patch 1.4, then it is high time to sue.

Meantime, I have nothing to say or feel sorry about insofar as the dumb SOB's are concerned. Clearly they are too stupid to realise, so why defend the indefensible? It's not harsh, it's tough love. The message remains: Wise up, or get fleeced again.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I purchased SH4 knowing that it would be an unfinished game, and knowing that with the patches and excellent mods offered in the first six months after release, it would become an excellent game.

Any reasonable person can see just how good this game already is patched to 1.3 and with mods like TM, RSRD and ROW, and there's more to come.

[Realjambo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Meantime, I have nothing to say or feel sorry about insofar as the dumb SOB's are concerned. Clearly they are too stupid to realise, so why defend the indefensible? It's not harsh, it's tough love. The message remains: Wise up, or get fleeced again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Snaves - You are now on your first and final warning. One more and you will face disciplinary measures. It is unacceptable to refer to SH4 players in the way you have done - twice now. Whilst you are welcome to your opinion you are NOT to use this forum to insult people. None of us here are "Dumb SOB's" and I personally take offence at your alacrity to use that term. </span>

[U301]

UBISoft turn out a half finished game like Silent Hunter IV due to cash and contractual agreements with there developers and not what the punters want or asked for and wonder why everybody is at everybodies else's throat.
Its like Ford selling you half a car and then asking YOU how do you get the other half?
SHIII is now in my opinion at an acceptible standard. I think the crew graphics need to be brought up to SHIV standard and are just about all that needs to be done.
I'm not gonna get involved with this guys as I have said in the passed "anybody sells you half a beer instead of the full bottle what do you think of him?"
KUrtz

[shadow_858]

PC subsims don't earn much money for Ubisoft, it's as simple as that. The profit margin is pretty small compared to the console games. That doesn't excuse the kind of ludicrous production schedule given to SH4, but it does explain it.

It's cheaper to run a Dev team for 11 months and then run a small patch team for a further 6 to 9 months, than it is to run a full Dev team for the 18 months needed to complete SH4 correctly.

I honestly don't see Ubisoft continuing with the Silent Hunter series beyond this point. I think the 'Add On' will be their sign off from WWII subsims.

I do expect them to create a fictitious modern day Naval Warfare sim for PC though.

[klcarroll]

I spent almost twenty years working as a Design Engineer.

I attended countless meeting in which the people from Marketing explained that a particular product was a "Limited Profit Item"; ....And their speech was always the same:

"You guys have to cut costs somehow! ....We don't care how! .....Cut features, or cut quality; ....But cut something! If we can't hit the Pricepoint, we can't sell it! ....Why can't you do that???"

Engineering's response was also quite consistent.

We would say;

"Why can't you Marketing Types actually learn how to do your job, and sell a QUALITY product by selling the features instead of the pricepoint????



Why do I mention this here??? .......Well, ......No reason, really! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


klcarroll

[shadow_858]

Your point is well taken, Kent. In my experience, Marketing are a legend in their own luch hour. They are not as smart as they think they are and they always take the easiest route to meet a price point.

I'll bet that if you go back about 20 months, the discussion went something like this.

UBISOFT: " OK. Silent Hunter 3 sold just well enough to justify Silent hunter 4. But only just. Dev team, move the game from the Atlantic to the Pacific and increase the eye candy to attract the casual gamer. when can we have it?"

DEVS: " Even cutting a lot of corners, we need at least 18 months to deliver a quality finished product."

UBISOFT: "Whatever. You've got 11 months starting now. Go."

[krazyfrenchman]

It's quite unfortunate that we are getting few post from SH3's forum regulars and almost none from the casual members here. Basically, couldn't we get more participation from those two? It would significantly vary the type of exchange we get. Always sticking with the same people, not only because they want to get involved, but because it's the only way to keep the idea alive and visible, is not diversifying the dialog.
<span class="ev_code_yellow">SO PLEASE, WE need as many different people as we can get to give their opinions/commentaries or contribute to the discussion.</span>

Couldn't we just bring something up TOGETHER and then work on it until WE can consider it done, FOR ONCE ?!

[shadow_858]

Even though you and I disagree on many things, KF, I respect your passion and enthusiasm and your post is deserving of a wider audience.

[Vlaba]

Here! Here! Krazyfrenchman. Although I've had this sim since it first came out, I'm really just now getting deeper into it. Some of us can't spend the hours a week needed to get highly involved, but still have the desire. Also, since I'm new to the forum, it can be daunting to follow all the threads looking for some discussion of some aspect to the sim that is your current issue but has been discussed before. And some of these issues may be relevent only to the current patch/mod level. So that said, give us newbies a break or you'll scare us away and shoot yourselves in the foot to boot.
On another note, I agree that SH4 will be the last in the series as concerns WW2, but what about WW1? And I personally would like to see the once talked about DD vs. U-boat LAN blend.

[krazyfrenchman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shadow_858:
Even though you and I disagree on many things, KF, I respect your passion and enthusiasm and your post is deserving of a wider audience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I am here for that, to stir up some dialog, that it be beneficial or outwardly provocative on its own.

Basically, the reason why I request other people's opinions is only because I care for them in the long run, they'll be sharing ideas and when you share them (not throw them at each other's head, we agree), it tends to value inclusivity and confidence. It is highly rewarding to be part of a community going more or less in the same direction. I prefer talking to individuals having varied opinions than all-of-the-same-brand people.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Let's go back on the main subject, shall we?</span>

[NIMITZ1967]

yes what about World war one? the BRITISH! lets go even further with possible expansions....hey, why doesn't the samr design team that came up with Trigger Maru put their talents to work on the expansion front....nobody is expecting Ubi to do much more, if profitability is out the window, so how bout' it?

By the way, after getting a chance to actually PLAY TM, i've found it works weel.......although i just put 12 torpeodoes into the Shokaku........and all it did was roll over and burn! Any explainations for that one? TWELVE tinfish (all hits) SHOULD be enough....whats the go Bo?

[snavesuk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Snaves - You are now on your first and final warning. One more and you will face disciplinary measures. It is unacceptable to refer to SH4 players in the way you have done - twice now. Whilst you are welcome to your opinion you are NOT to use this forum to insult people. None of us here are "Dumb SOB's" and I personally take offence at your alacrity to use that term. </span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you think that smothering a dissenting view that urges paying customers to wise up rather than throw even more money at something that even now is unfinished, full of bugs and with a level of overall quality that does credit only to freeware is the way forward..?

Surely, those who choose to purchase must do so in full possession of the facts that UBI have conscientiously failed to deliver on almost all of the promises of this product, and now are marketing new promises on a new product that attaches to the old, unfinished one.

History repeating itself?

And as for your threatening moderation, READ YOUR OWN RULES, pal. I am TOTALLY in compliance with the UBISOFT Terms of Use. I suggest you read it properlty and learn to understand it properly and stop wasting my time and that of other forum visitors. This is an important debate, and your attempt to stifle it is both obvious and scurrilous:
I have named no individual nor group: Neither named nor cast aspersion at anyone in particular - and by definition no one has yet purchased an unreleased addon so no `group` yet exists who might be offended by my utterings, SH4 or otherwise...

As with ALL commercial transactions, the ultimate caveat is, and remains: `Let The Buyer Beware` and it is both beneficial and in the interest of consumers that they are informed of all sides of the argument, so that a correct and balanced purchase decision may be made.

It is your interpretation of my words that is offensive and nowhere do I see you taking consistent steps to deal with the libellous and malicious name-calling of marketing people - a `group` that DOES exist within the Terms of Use definition - and of which I am one.

When YOU show a degree of consistency and understanding and are able to moderate effectively, then and only then will your yellow prose mean anything to me. Until then, an apology for overstepping your remit, mis-interpretation of my words - and for failing to moderate with a consistent, even hand would go some way toward re-establishing your integrity and validity as a moderator, and proving that my assessments were not, in fact, accurate.

You might even try to get my forum name right as a small step forward.

[snavesuk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krazyfrenchman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shadow_858:
Even though you and I disagree on many things, KF, I respect your passion and enthusiasm and your post is deserving of a wider audience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I am here for that, to stir up some dialog, that it be beneficial or outwardly provocative on its own.

Basically, the reason why I request other people's opinions is only because I care for them in the long run, they'll be sharing ideas and when you share them (not throw them at each other's head, we agree), it tends to value inclusivity and confidence. It is highly rewarding to be part of a community going more or less in the same direction. I prefer talking to individuals having varied opinions than all-of-the-same-brand people.

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Let's go back on the main subject, shall we?</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems that only some opinions are welcome here. Those that express an opinion that the new addon is a waste of time and effort, and insulting to the existing SH4 customers while issues still remain to be dealt with within SH4 are deemed too `outwardly provocative` to be dealt with here.

Personally, there has been ample time passed for UBI to send in a sacrificial lamb and sell us the addon is clear, concise terms, rather than the vague suggestions we have had so far.

Not only that, they could tell us how this addon, generating further spurious and ridiculous scenarios could be put to use in improving the core sim (not gaming, I'm a simmer, y'see...)experience? Instead, it seems they want to use deflection and blatant abuse of the forum rules by their own staffers to stifle debate.

So do they want a quorum, or quiescence? CAN they actually justify why WE, the community, should throw even more money at an incomplete product, when it appears that nothing the nmoney gets spent on will beneift that core experience, at all.

I for one, would like to be convinced. Clearly, it is in our lonh-term interests that Ubisoft stays in the subsim market - if they intend to deliver a product that actually matches the marketing claims. Budget or no, they contracted to produce soemthing that has yet to see fruition - and while I am happy to wait to see what free Patch 1.4 might deliver, I am not intending to wait - or purchase - this addon without some VERY compelling arguments..?

So how about it Ubi? Forget sending in the stormtroopers, why not actually answer a straight question with a straight answer.

For once. And if not, is there a moneyback guarantee for this addon, so no-one can come back later and kick themselves for being such a Dumb SOB as to get caught AGAIN..?

[U301]

The beef is the poor quality of the initail product release of Silent HunterIV.
Then the need for mega patches, that did not adequately resolve the problems with the game and now the munson boat addon.
I agree with the above two posts (RJ my friend I am sorry but snavesuk has a point and has to let of some steam on the matter... give his spin!) we are all pretty annoyed at the poor quality first release of SHIV as compared to other PC games you can buy.
I would love to go for Japanese tankers off Java and the like but the quality is just not good enough. I get bored and come back to SHIII and the Atlantik (German spelling) where in my opinion SHIV should have been set in the first place.
Why did not UBISoft employ some of the excellent modders off SubSim.com?
I think that would have made all the difference!
KUrtz.

[klcarroll]

snavesuk;

I really believe you are willfully missing the point!

You are dissatisfied with the semi-finished nature of the SH4 product; ....and you are certainly entitled to express that opinion!

What you ARE NOT entitled to do is question the intelligence of the other people on this Forum with terms like "Stupid SOBs"�!!!

THIS is the infraction you were warned about!

If you took the time to read the posts by the other regulars here (myself included) you would see that we ALL have expressed dissatisfaction with the current set of developments!

The fact that many here have chosen to wait out the ongoing efforts by UBI is not due to "Fanboyism"�: ....It is because this Sim has the POTENTIAL to be a great sim, and we are willing to wait and see what the final version looks like.

This makes us "Patient"�; .....NOT STUPID!!!

I don't know what your real viewpoint is; ....But I can tell you about mine: ...SH3 and SH4 are the Sims that I have been waiting 25 years to see, ...and I want the end result! If that means that we have to accept a half-assed effort from UBI, and then rely on the Modding Community to "make it right"�; ...then I am willing to go with that route!

Criticize UBI all you want: .....But if you continue bashing the intelligence of the other people here, ...... I will save RJ the trouble of getting "involved"� again!!

klcarroll

[snavesuk]

You fail completely to address the issues I raised in counterpoint to your unnecessary and incorrect criticism, and I await a valid response to what forum rule I broke, or your apology, together with equivalent criticism of those who have suggested that marketing people are stupid or conniving...

As required, I used Dictionary.com and found both `DUMB` and `SOB` - neither are `vulgar`, both are interpretive expressions: - that is to say in the mind of the interpreter. I do not name any individual in this forum - and by your own implication I cannot be criticising the members of this forum as none of us would be dumb enough to buy this half-assed addon while issues remain with the core game, even if it were available. Would we?

Therefore, both by intention and careful crafting, I avoided ALL the pitfalls of the Terms of Use save one, outside my control: Deliberate misinterpreatation by people who are obviously pursuing a malevolent agenda. You say that you are not, but that leaves only the alternative interpretation, which implies incompetence as the interpretation is false and unfounded. As I have shown.

Anyway, I will let the matter rest there as it has proved to be only a minor deviation from the real issue, and I am glad to see that most here are not dumb enough to allow such trite deflection to divert from the task at hand, which I am pleased to see you say you agree with, if not yet convinced that you mean it:-

Ensuring that Ubisoft receive our money only AFTER they have fulfilled their promises on SH4.

We await their contribution to this thread with interest...

[klcarroll]

snavesuk;

At 56 years of age, I am long past the point where I am impressed by "Barracks Room Lawyers"!

Criticize UBI all you want! ....But if you attack the intelligence of the other people on this forum again, I will suspend your privileges!

klcarroll

[shadow_858]

Silent Hunter 4 is following along exactly the same path as Silent Hunter 3. Ubisoft released an unfinished game in both cases, and only the dedication and talent of their Devs and the modding community made these games as good as they now are.

That said, I knew what I was getting when I purchased SH4....a game that would be good within six months of release and excellent within a year.

Patch 1.4 will clean up most of the remaining issues, and the Add On will be a tool for the modders to expand the Atlantic campaign, and will also be a test for Ubisoft, as their next Naval Warfare offering will undoubtedly involve the player controlling multiple air and sea assets.

[snavesuk]

Fine by me. But for consistencies sake, if you handle your moderating duties in such a hamfisted way again, with such abject lack of consistency or understanding as you have shown this time, I will ask Ubi to remove yours.

And I should warn you, I regard the use of these forums for technical support purposes as a right, not a privilege. The right was implied to me in the purchase contract and in the manuals contained within the sealed packaging.

I don't believe my posts damage the integrity or efficacy of the forum, and I have shown they dfo not breach forum rule or guidelines. Therefore your threats and direct attacks against me constitute the ONLY breach in forum etiquette in this thread. Don't let it happen again, and I won't have to ask for your removal.

But as I said, I'll let it go this time.

We have a good exchange of views going here, and I am keen to seek an official contribution from the mouthpieces of the developers.

It would seem that many share the view that we customers - we paying customers - are owed that.

[klcarroll]

snavesuk;

I made my point very clearly.

You are free to bash UBI all day long; ....But you are not allowed to malign other users.

You chose to respond in an argumentative fashion and warn me "Not to let it happen again"!

Have it your way! ....Account suspended!

klcarroll

[krazyfrenchman]

ALL of us...

<span class="ev_code_yellow"> FORGET THIS EPISODE, LET'S GO BACK ON THE SUBJECT. PLEASE! Thank you!</span>

[Liddabit]

Do any of you ever want to fill a pool with jello and go swimming in it and pretend you are a submarine?

[klcarroll]

krazyfrenchman;

I understand that you're upset, but please keep in mind that the main thing that got snavesuk into trouble were his personal attacks.

Please edit your post to remove those personal elements.

klcarroll

[klcarroll]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do any of you ever want to fill a pool with jello and go swimming in it and pretend you are a submarine? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Liddabit;

....There are some aspects of that question that verge on the "Kinky"!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

klcarroll

[dgrayson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Liddabit:
Do any of you ever want to fill a pool with jello and go swimming in it and pretend you are a submarine? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for the mental image. It will brighten my day.

[cpt-rusty]

depends whats the jello flavour? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[U301]

Liddabit,
A/S/L Please?
You sound just the thing for after a hard long patrol!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
KUrtz

[krazyfrenchman]

<span class="ev_code_yellow">Are WE going in Oblivion with this idea or what? Come on, WE can do better than that! Please, let's get back to the main idea behind this thread...</span>

[Vlaba]

It would seem to me that the market share for this product line is about maxed out. Most of us, I think, have followed this series and puchased SH4 based on SH1, 2, and 3 which all seemingly built off the previous level of success and promised a further sense of reality in the genre. Sure, there will be newcomers, but I can't see any huge influx of players migrating from consoles and such. So my question to UBi would be what do they see the future of this product line being? They should have a pretty good idea of the level of sales they can expect from us as long as we feel they will support the product enough to keep the majority of us reasonably happy. I don't fault the developers for the bugs and inaccuracies for I'm sure they want to give us the best experience they can, but there is a limit to how much UBi can invest on a product with a somewhat fixed fan base. I would also hope that what has been learned from SH3 and 4, will only make what's next better. So I would buy a friend an SH4 package that would run better out of the box. Although none of my friends are PC gamers, I'll buy one if it will feed the continuance of the series. I vote for WW1 U-boats to keep it an historical fighting sim. Something about moderm boomers just seems boring to me.

[klcarroll]

Well, ...I think the real issue KF wants to get back to is whether or not we can drum up support for an effort to support UBI with some addition holiday sales.

It's not a case of being "Fanboys" or anything like that: ...It's just that we have to face the fact that we are not likely to get much in the way of future developments unless we show UBI a financial reason for such an effort.

klcarroll

[Wolferz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Well, ...I think the real issue KF wants to get back to is whether or not we can drum up support for an effort to support UBI with some addition holiday sales.

It's not a case of being "Fanboys" or anything like that: ...It's just that we have to face the fact that we are not likely to get much in the way of future developments unless we show UBI a financial reason for such an effort.

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon KL, none of us here want to see a threepeat and past performance with SH III and IV indicate what Ubisoft' future offerings will be.Half baked goods prematurely shoved into the product pipeline for the unsuspecting consumer to be ambushed out of his hard earned money.
We on this forum have somewhat blindly offered our support and have been snubbed(for lack of a better word and decorum) by Ubisoft.
I didn't discover SH III until well after its release and by that time most of the bug issues had been covered. But not all of them. I waited several months before purchasing SH IV because of this. Only to discover that IV was created from the mess that was SHIII. Leftover bugs included. Snavesuk is correct in his opinion that we are all stupid if we continue to assist a publisher with such a dismal track record for product development and support. Let's face it. A public forum is not a suitable medium for bug reporting. Did Ubisoft even supply a proper bug reporting system? If so, I haven't found it yet.
I would be remiss as an experienced Beta tester and a forum( not this one) moderator if I promoted Ubisofts questionable business practices and thier clear lack of quality control. If Ubisoft can't produce a quality product right out of the box then I'm not interested in any future offerings.
I won't be fooled again.

[shadow_858]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by krazyfrenchman:
<span class="ev_code_yellow">Are WE going in Oblivion with this idea or what? Come on, WE can do better than that! Please, let's get back to the main idea behind this thread...</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


KF, 955 people have read this thread at the time of my posting. It would appear that most of them, like me, don't see this as a viable idea and are therefore not interested in supporting it.

Also, nothing has changed in regard to this Forum's relationship with Ubisoft. Ubisoft set up a Q and A prior to the release of SHIII, and a Q and A was instigated again by the Admins here about a year ago. The fact that it's happening again is not relative to the fiasco of a few months ago, it's a case of the Admins here pointing out to Ubisoft that offering such a Q and A at this time would be good PR for a Forum which to some degree feels abandoned by Ubisoft.

As for your marketing idea, it would need to have been put out there during the early Summer months in order to have had any chance at success.

[klcarroll]

To paraphrase:

"C'mon Wolferz! ..................



Your point would be valid IF there were any alternatives!

"Half Baked"� on release or not, ......where else are you suggesting we go for a Submarine Simulation????

I will freely admit to being "A Dumb SOB"� if you can show me where to buy a better SubSim!!!

Right now, ...it looks to me like you have Realism confused with Naivete: .....Something NO ONE here is guilty of: (Particularly the Moderators, who are compelled to read every last redundant post on this issue!)

......And I think you owe everyone here the courtesy of retracting the "Dumb SOB"� thing!

klcarroll

[ken4045]

hi: snavesuk I have put only patch 1.3 in and needed no up grades for this game.it plays great.and I would and have told others about this game and 2 of my friends have bought it! and they put patch 1.3 in and we have no problems.and for those [dumb sobs] then I must be one of those. thats all I am going to say on this matter.UBI and mods are doing a great job of trying to make things right,but some times you just need help and that is what they where trying to do. ask for our help.thats it for me. keep up the good work mods and UBI.

[VikingGrandad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shadow_858:
KF, 955 people have read this thread at the time of my posting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen a few comments recently about view counts.

For the sake of clarification I should explain that the number of 'views' does NOT equate to the the number of 'viewers' (people).

If a thread received 955 'views' that means an unknown number of people (I would guess 200-500) have collectively viewed the thread 955 times - i.e. several times each. Most forum and other website tracking software has rudimentary logic built in to prevent the 'view' count being abused, by ignoring repeated clicks from the same person in a short space of time.

The number of 'views' is certainly indicative of the level of interest in a thread, but it's not a measurement of the number of people who have read a thread.

That's all!

Carry on...

[shadow_858]

You are totally correct, Sir. I should have been more specific in my post. The real point is that a member can't force people to support a post if they don't want to support it.

[klcarroll]

My read was that KF wasn't trying to force anybody to do anything! ...He was simply asking that the discussion return to the issue.

The "Bash UBI Thread" has been done before, and that wasn't the original issue here; ....so why walk down that drab, boring, old street yet again??

(....I sincerely doubt that ANYONE has anything fresh to add on THAT old subject!)

klcarroll

[krazyfrenchman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
(....I sincerely doubt that ANYONE has anything fresh to add on THAT old subject!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course besides trying to get as many people to post in positively or negatively about the discussion. I did not force anyone, I am merely trying to get more opinions... Aren't we close to a thousand members from which number 200 are actually posting now and then. Can't we just get their feedback(s) for this discussion. That would be very much appreciated! A little challenge for ya all!

[shadow_858]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
My read was that KF wasn't trying to force anybody to do anything! ...He was simply asking that the discussion return to the issue.
klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only reason that the post is still on page one of the Forum is that the OP keeps bumping it there. It had died a natural death due to lack of interest on November 21st at 07.23, and then the OP bumped it on November 22 at 17.47 in order to try and get people interested.

Most people here realize that they can ask any question they want by going to the 'Collecting Questions To Ask The Devs' thread, and that the second issue raised in this thread is months too late to be of any value.

[klcarroll]

Looking back to the beginning of this thread, it seems clear that the original proposition was that it would be a good idea to support the product we want to see finished.


What the 'Collecting Questions To Ask The Devs' thread has to do with that is beyond me!

klcarroll

[Wolferz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
To paraphrase:

"C'mon Wolferz! ..................



Your point would be valid IF there were any alternatives!

"Half Baked"� on release or not, ......where else are you suggesting we go for a Submarine Simulation????

I will freely admit to being "A Dumb SOB"� if you can show me where to buy a better SubSim!!!

Right now, ...it looks to me like you have Realism confused with Naivete: .....Something NO ONE here is guilty of: (Particularly the Moderators, who are compelled to read every last redundant post on this issue!)

......And I think you owe everyone here the courtesy of retracting the "Dumb SOB"� thing!

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Done! my friend. Wasn't intended as a flame toward you or anyone else that peruses this forum. Apparently you have a guilty conscience for being one of the many who were duped by the marketing hype and still feels compelled to advise everyone to keep throwing thier money into the pockets of those who couldn't care less if they produced a good product. You and I both know that there is no other Sub Sim out there. It's one of those niche things. It still doesn't excuse Ubisoft from taking advantage of us, which was my entire point. I commend KF for his rabid devotion to making this sim the best it can be. But I still have the sneaky suspicion that Ubisoft just doesn't give a rats *** what any of us think and they never will. I've said my piece on these tired old issues and I'm done with it.
Wolferz over and out
"Mr Lewis, take us down to three hundred feet and go to silent running."

[U301]

[Quote]Apparently you have a guilty conscience for being one of the many who were duped by the marketing hype and still feels compelled to advise everyone to keep throwing thier money into the pockets of those who couldn't care less if they produced a good product.[Quote]

I would moderate the language you direct to KLCarrol if I were you!
KLCarrol has the highest reputation on this forum and is exemplory in his behaviour at all times and to everybody, witness his posts in this very sensitive topic.
Lets leave it guys!
We could have been sold a better game from stock, the modders on these forums have busted their as* too try and improve it.
UBI if you cannot come up with the goods a lot of other people will try to.
KUrtz

[shadow_858]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by klcarroll:
Looking back to the beginning of this thread, it seems clear that the original proposition was that it would be a good idea to support the product we want to see finished.


What the 'Collecting Questions To Ask The Devs' thread has to do with that is beyond me!

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Let me refresh your memory then.

[/QUOTE]
Upon learning of Ubisoft's decision and giving US, members, the opportunity in asking questions to the DEV_Team, it really meant in the end that all what WE and I have done for the past 6 months or so finally paid off. We really have a direct channel to ask them questions and I truly hope WE will take advantage of this new means of communication. As long as WE ask intelligent questions and that WE get fair answers in return, all is for the best and I thank UBI for granting us --FINALLY!-- a proper and inclusive dialogue channel.
VISIT THIS THREAD IN GREAT NUMBERS! READ BEFORE POSTING REDUNDANT QUESTIONS...

The point of this announcement is directly in relation to this "overture" from Ubisoft. [/QUOTE]


His post starts with the above incorrect assumption that his actions of a few months ago has now brought Ubisoft to the table. The reality is that nothing has changed at all. The 'direct channel' he refers to was there prior to Silent Hunter III and was also there a year ago when a similar Q and A was set up.

Next he goes on to suggest a marketing approach that would need to have been implemented many months earlier to stand any chance of success. Nothing wrong with the idea at all, but when hundreds of people read the post and decide that this idea simply can't work within the time frame, and therefore decide to say nothing rather than be negative, the OP simply bumps the post in the hope of changing things.

This is a dead issue, however many times it gets bumped by the OP. This will be my last post in this thread.

[longam]

http://www.downbelow.net/sh4/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

[dgrayson]

It's time for pie.
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z107/davegrayson/piesmall.jpg

[krazyfrenchman]

Yeah, I think shadow deserves it...

Besides, I guess that he does not remember my answer to the exact point he also mentioned to klcarroll (go back to a previous post to read it). And yet, it still does not point out why the purpose of my thread could be included within the "Ask the DEVs" thread? They are not even related to each other!!! Neither does it explain the relationship between asking all the members to participate to this thread and my saying that Ubisoft has granted us a dialog channel (at last!) due in part to this community's efforts...