(DISCUSSION&SPOILERS!) DDS Memory Sources

[midgemage]

An in-world lore discussion thread. ^_^

Has anyone else noticed an oddity whilst reviewing memories in the DDS? The memory sequences are extracted from sections of an individual's DNA (which was... *cough... donated... to The Company http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), but several of these memories should not be possible to examine because of the simple reason that it could not have been passed down to a descendant.

Memories so far that don't fit into the genetic continuity:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> PLAYING DEAD (Italian Wars, Chapter 2- Francesco Vecellio) [/list]
We see this particular memory from the perspective of the victim, Niccolo de Pitigliano, and how he was killed by The Shroud. It becomes readily apparent that we can't possibly be viewing this memory if it was extracted from a descendant, because said descendant could not exist and hold a memory of the ancestor's death.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> All memories in Chapter 4 of Italian Wars following Lucrezia Borgia's pregnancy (From CONSEQUENCES ---> PSYCHOSOMATIC)[/list]
It is apparent from the latter memories of this chapter that Perotto Calderon fathered only one child, with Lucrezia Borgia; understandable, as death does tend to render one infertile. However, it then raises the question of how it is possible to view any of the events following (or even during) the pregnancy, since the only source of Perotto's genetic memory would be the child and his subsequent offspring, who could not possibly hold the majority of the events viewed in chapter 4.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> <STRIKE>NOT WHILE THE KID IS WATCHING (Rome, Chapter 1- Fiora Cavazza) and other possible preceding memories</STRIKE> Ooops. XD[/list]
If we assume that memories for this chapter do indeed originate from one of Fiora's supposed descendants, then she must obviously have had children. It doesn't seem like she got pregnant during the course of the chapter (if she did then NOT WHILE THE KID IS WATCHING will not be the only one that should not be viewable), so we are forced to accept that she got knocked up after. Fiora's ultimate fate is rather ambiguous; caught red-handed by her employer, and being promised pain doesn't exactly bode well, but there is always the possibility that she survived... Knowing Cesare, though...

Let's assume first that The Company isn't just messing with us. My question is: how do you think Abstergo obtained these memories? Anyone have any theories for an alternative to the usual memory extraction methods?

The only guess I have are getting the genes from the body (digging up the bones or something), but that's unimaginative and boring. I'm sure there'll be some more creative options out there. XD

::EDIT:: Argh, silly me. That last one there is valid.

[coryplayspiano]

You bring up some great points that I haven't seen before. Just to point out, "Not While The Kid Is Watching" is from the perspective of Giovanni Borgia and not Fiora. Other than that, your point about the rest of the chapter's memories is correct. I wonder about any of Mario Auditore's memories as well. There's obviously room for him to have had a child between his Project Legacy story and AC2, but you'd think something like that would have come up somehow. Instead, he treated Ezio like the child he never had.

I only have one explanation other than a colossal mistake by the writers. It relates to Giovanni Borgia's dreams of Perotto's memories and Brutus. His dreams also have memories that could not have been passed down genetically. None of Brutus' memories of assassinating Julius Caesar should have been passed down because he didn't have a child during that whole ordeal. And I believe Giovanni has memories of Perotto using the Shroud to heal him. The only thing they have in common is that both Brutus and Perotto came into contact with the Shroud. Somehow the Shroud passed on these memories to Giovanni, so it must store memories from people whose DNA it has come into contact with.

Notice that the Niccolo and Perotto memories both come when they last touch the Shroud. Perotto's death is then told from Francesco's point of view. Also, it seems that Abstergo may have obtained the Shroud in the Milan memory from the Holiday pack. It's possible that they have somehow extracted memories from the Shroud. This still doesn't address where Fiora Cavazza's memories came from though.

Very interesting topic you've started here. I hope this is eventually addressed and isn't just a giant gaping plot hole.

[midgemage]

Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
You bring up some great points that I haven't seen before. Just to point out, "Not While The Kid Is Watching" is from the perspective of Giovanni Borgia and not Fiora.
Ooops! Noted and crossed out. Thanks. XD


Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
Notice that the Niccolo and Perotto memories both come when they last touch the Shroud. Perotto's death is then told from Francesco's point of view. Also, it seems that Abstergo may have obtained the Shroud in the Milan memory from the Holiday pack. It's possible that they have somehow extracted memories from the Shroud. This still doesn't address where Fiora Cavazza's memories came from though.
Oh, that's a compelling idea! I did briefly consider the possibility of the Shroud archiving the memories of its users, but I had dismissed its relevance to this particular problem on the grounds that Abstergo would not be properly able to extract the sequence and view it as they do with other genetic memory sources. It all makes sense if those are, in fact, leftover impressions from Giovanni Borgia's short interaction with the Shroud, as they would be sequences in his DNA rather than from a nonexistent descendant of those individuals!

I wonder if the Shroud will continue to play a role in the upcoming memory set...

[morgan-gw]

This was discussed at length over on the FB boards. The best we could come up with is that Abstergo got the DNA from some source other than a descendant, with the Shroud being a prime suspect.

[LuigiPT]

If you think about it, if the shroud is able to hold the genetic memory of every subject it touches and also transmit this information to every user Abstergo only need to get a hold of a Giovanni Borgia. Using Giovanni Borgia's genetic memory you could access every user memory.
So it is not unlikely that we get to experience Jesus memories this Easter...

[coryplayspiano]

I was thinking about this some more last night. Somehow I ended up looking at the wiki page for the Staff of Eden, and saw the discussion people were having about it. Someone mentioned that the Papal Staff and the Czar's Staff from The Fall comic must be the same because one of the quotes when Daniel Cross sees the memory of Nikolai Orelov touching the Staff is the same thing that Rodrigo Borgia says when he's getting ready to fight Ezio at the end of AC2 and holding the Staff: "Always the fighter, just like your father." It's possible that the vision Nikolai saw when he touched the Staff consisted of memories of people that had held the Staff before.

I've also wondered if the Pieces of Eden aren't somehow networked to each other and capable of compiling all these memories between them. It could also explain things like the map the Apple showed Altair, which would mean the Apple knew where the other Pieces were.

Another interesting thing I noticed was a quote from the vision when Nikolai touched the Staff at Tunguska: *"Don't you see? The memories exist at all times and in all places at once. We can access them, but to build an accurate timeline... I don't think it's possible." I wonder if this quote could be someone talking about being able to pull these memories from a Piece of Eden or someone like Giovanni Borgia and saying that all these memories across time exist together in the memory data. What if this quote was about Project Legacy? What if part of its true purpose is to build a timeline from this huge data dump of memories that Abstergo has?

[midgemage]

Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
I've also wondered if the Pieces of Eden aren't somehow networked to each other and capable of compiling all these memories between them. It could also explain things like the map the Apple showed Altair, which would mean the Apple knew where the other Pieces were.
The merging of the Apple and the Staff in ACII proves that the Pieces can interact with each other to a certain extent, but we don't know if a similar link can be achieved over long distances. The Crystal Skulls seem to suggest that it is possible, but if all Pieces are capable of accurate long range data transmission, then the Skulls themselves would be obsolete as communication devices... perhaps they are an older model?

Note also that The Ones Who Came Before have shown the ability to predict events far into the future with almost ridiculous accuracy, so the map shown by the Apple may simply be the expected locations of Pieces of Eden at that point in time.


Originally posted by coryplayspiano:
Another interesting thing I noticed was a quote from the vision when Nikolai touched the Staff at Tunguska: *"Don't you see? The memories exist at all times and in all places at once. We can access them, but to build an accurate timeline... I don't think it's possible." I wonder if this quote could be someone talking about being able to pull these memories from a Piece of Eden or someone like Giovanni Borgia and saying that all these memories across time exist together in the memory data. What if this quote was about Project Legacy? What if part of its true purpose is to build a timeline from this huge data dump of memories that Abstergo has?
Hmm, that's intriguing... there's certainly value in assembling and ordering the timeline, but what would Abstergo specifically be looking for in doing so? That line, that all memories exist at all times, reminds me of Juno's claim that they were capable of peering into time; if the Pieces were the tools they used to do so, or hold some ability to replicate the feat, then Abstergo may not only be retrieving memories from the past... but also constructing a future timeline. There's more to Project Legacy than meets the eye.

It also brings to mind an interesting idea: what if The Company isn't the only faction compiling memories? Most Pieces so far have demonstrated some degree of storage of memories, and if we assume them to also be capable of transferring them over longer distances, then it would make sense that there is some purpose to this otherwise out-of-place function. Juno mentions that The Ones Who Came Before attempted (somewhat unsuccessfully) to archive truth and knowledge so that it would not be lost to time. What if all the Pieces relay memories and other information gathered to one single Piece, a central database, if you will, as one of their roles?

And, assuming such a device does exist, would it not be appropriate to call it... Eden?

[coryplayspiano]

My personal theory is that the Sixth Sense, Knowledge, that Juno talked about Desmond needing to awaken is the ability to access all of your genetic memory. Imagine how much you could know if every ancestor's knowledge was always available to you. Shaun's comments in AC2 seem to foreshadow Desmond being able to do this:


What we're saying, Desmond, is if you're not careful, you may not need the Animus to visit with your ancestors. Which wouldn't be a bad thing assuming you could control it. Up until now, though, no one has.

The whole "up until now" comment makes me think that Desmond will eventually be able to access memories without using the Animus. Those Who Came Before may have locked this ability away by causing humans to go crazy when these other memories start invading their minds. How this relates to Eagle Vision I'm not sure, but it just feels like the story is headed in that direction.

I say all that to say I don't think TWCB would need to compile memories like this. I think when Juno says "In the beginning, we set our truths to parchment. To stone. To the memory of men. These proved impermanent things," she's just saying that her civilization tried to preserve the truth of the past for mankind, but it was mostly lost.

[midgemage]

A fair point- it really doesn't seem like they would have the need to archive the memories... But one wonders at the then apparently unnecessary function in several Pieces.

Oh, and a little detail I only noticed recently, but Cesare Borgia is one of the Mnemonic pieces for a Holiday Mnemonic, the Shroud of Turin. I'm not sure if anyone already has an explanation for this, but I don't think either game ever makes a mention of Cesare coming into possession of the Shroud... What do you make of this?

[coryplayspiano]

Yeah, a lot of people have noticed Cesare being one of the pieces of the Shroud of Turin Mnemonic set. Seems he may have owned it for a while, but there is no other allusion to this at all. Some people think it may explain his crazy "no man can murder me" stance at the end of Brotherhood.

It seems difficult for him to have anything to do with the Shroud since Perotto Calderon used it and left it in Agnadello in 1498. Project Legacy doesn't say whether it left Agnadello, and it seems that the Battle of Agnadello in 1509 could have been where Niccolo obtained the Shroud. I guess the one clue could be when*Francesco Vecellio talks to the Shroud's previous keeper during Rome Chapter 3 sometime between 1501 and 1503. The previous keeper asks where they have taken it, but Francesco doesn't know. Who knows where it was or who had it during this time.