Conviction Critiques & Alternate Suggestions [Archive]

Knot3D

06-05-2007, 02:00 PM

Ok, so here's my 2 cents ;

The irony of this game is in it's name : "Conviction"

Because...in fact, the evolution of Splinter Cell, in line with Chaos Theory was NOT given a chance ; it was CONVICTED before even a possible proper 'trial'.

That's basically what the SC Conviction lovers are doing as well ; they're saying ;

- "it would be the boring same old same old"
- "there would be no way to improve upon the core concept"
-"let me play my G' dam Bauer/Bourne badas s infused Sam Fisher !"

And those same ppl are flaming opinions and theories from people who show, time and time again, how next gen evolution of SC1, SC2 and SC CT could have brought forward
vintage SC gameplay like it was intended to be (considering that last gen tech held back TRUE shadow interaction) ;

- immersing you this time for REAL ; having to watch your casted shadows literally because the Ai's smart enough to recognize those AND they're able to read your silhouette.
- imagine interactive / dynamic level design PLUS Sam's array of athletic stealth moves
- setting the record straight after the offshoot tangent that is SC Double Agent

Shortsightedness keeps those people from understanding the potential of the concept of Splinter Cell evolution after CT.

"Give it a chance, give Conviction a chance !" they're screaming....but they never even gave Chaos Theory evolved a thought of chance either......

* The other irony is... that some MGS fans who usually hate anything Splinter Cell, now applaud this Conviction game. What a weird world.

Brownsnakeeyes

06-06-2007, 10:39 AM

I noticed that too. It seems to me that UBI is trying to move ever closer to MGS. Sam even has the same hair cut. Plus now the story has the hole drama conspiracy going on.

I think I'll start calling Sam a Snake wanna be from now on. Since the only thing left is for him to have a headband.

Plus you mine as well put the new Bond movie in there for examples too.

coltcat

06-06-2007, 11:15 AM

(sry if i am going to misspell any words below)

please,could some nice guy just tell me did ubi ever notice of any players suggestion or not?

cause imo they seems have totally ignore everything we players wants and enjoys for years this time and could have made some wrongfully changing for the game already.
i really dislike the game might turning into whats ever a "mgs wanna be" or "bourne like" stuff.
did ubi forgot what kind of game it is and made it's success at first place?
or this time they are trying to win the hearts of [mgs or some other likely games]-fans then just stick on original sc players?
that might be some market tactics and maybe it will works will at the cost of lossin few origin sc fans.

marinius

06-07-2007, 04:33 AM

Another reason for being sceptical with regards to SCC is a forum thread like this one:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5271091065/m/2091021565

EmmaJordan

06-07-2007, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by marinius:
Another reason for being sceptical with regards to SCC is a forum thread like this one:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5271091065/m/2091021565

Yes, I am sure that the real Splinter Cell fan will have no problem losing the night vision goggles in favor of the "hoodie". Wow, what an exciting addition (or shall I say replacement?). I can see it now. A guard is walking towards Sam, but wait....Sam puts on his hoodie, so the guard walks on by. Gee, maybe I should give this exciting new form of game play a chance....

Oh brother...

You guys at Ubisoft are real geniuses. Way to kill a franchise.

I have another idea. Maybe one of the other "gadgets" will be a cheap pair of ray-ban knock-off glasses. If Sam puts them on, he becomes totally unrecognizable to the pursuing police.

Maybe Ubisoft should give me a job .... I seem to have their new concept down.

jbhooyah86

06-07-2007, 10:15 AM

Conviction looks like your standard third person run around and kill stuff like GTA or True Crime, except with better graphics. Sam Fisher is a hard dude that doesn't need to dress like a hobo and have an emo haircut. Sam is a damn BLACK OPS AGENT who is trained in very brutal H2H meant for quick kills or disabling the enemy, not some stupid MMA fruit cup stuff. What's next "Splinter Cell: Get Rich or Die Trying"?

Phreaky_McGeek

06-07-2007, 10:27 AM

Signed. The guys above have already expressed my opinions of the game.

Seriously... what happened? Kick-*** stealth fighting to chair battles?

Stealth_chill

06-07-2007, 11:03 AM

signed..dont forget about printers!!!

Stealth_chill

06-07-2007, 11:23 AM

if your mad about the way this is going put this as your new sig!http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g79/SplintacellDA/SPY.jpg

Chinese_Bookey

06-07-2007, 12:34 PM

In the beginning, Ubisoft created Splinter Cell. And the game was without light, and pretty; and darkness was upon the face of Sam Fisher. And Ubisoft Shanghai moved upon the face of Sam Fisher. And Shanghai said, Let there be light: and there was light. And Montreal saw the light, that it was good: and Montreal divided the light from the darkness. And Montreal called the light Conviction, and the darkness it called Old News.

In these times of devastation and conflict, we pray that all that has been done since the year of the Chaos Theory, to this day, shall be undone and redone again. In the name of Sam Fisher, our Lord, our splinter cell, we humbly kneel before thee and pray to you. Amen.

marinius

06-07-2007, 02:07 PM

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Lol, nice one Bookey!!!

lochang19

06-07-2007, 02:41 PM

Love it.

marinius

06-08-2007, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by EmmaJordan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marinius:
Another reason for being sceptical with regards to SCC is a forum thread like this one:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5271091065/m/2091021565

Yes, I am sure that the real Splinter Cell fan will have no problem losing the night vision goggles in favor of the "hoodie". Wow, what an exciting addition (or shall I say replacement?). I can see it now. A guard is walking towards Sam, but wait....Sam puts on his hoodie, so the guard walks on by. Gee, maybe I should give this exciting new form of game play a chance....

Oh brother...

You guys at Ubisoft are real geniuses. Way to kill a franchise.

I have another idea. Maybe one of the other "gadgets" will be a cheap pair of ray-ban knock-off glasses. If Sam puts them on, he becomes totally unrecognizable to the pursuing police.

Maybe Ubisoft should give me a job .... I seem to have their new concept down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, yes you do seem to have it all figured out now Emma! The Ray-Ban knock-offs is a brilliant idea and should be implemented without question. It would be like waaaay cool to like pull up your hoodie and like just put on those aaaawesome glasses and like not be recognised until you like blast every cop with this like awesome huge gun and like....and so on and so on.

Julius48_015

06-08-2007, 04:52 AM

Grow up

marinius

06-08-2007, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by Julius48_015:
Grow up

Hmm, that very succinct command leads me to one of two conclusions: either you're incapable of appreciating irony - which, I fear I have to spell it out for you, the ending of my previous post was, or you're in the wrong thread. If you actually like the new direction of Splinter Cell, I'll offer up a succinct command myself: get out of this thread!

Now, which is it Julius?

private_jok3r

06-08-2007, 06:00 AM

Ubisoft just fails so deeply. Splinter Cell is not
anymore what it calls itself:

Splinter Cells must be small, sharp, and nearly
invisible in order to survive.
(out of an description)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

simulacra

06-08-2007, 02:46 PM

TFS_Jackie edit: Calling our community members whiners is not allowed here. This is a warning.

NO NAME CALLING.

And personally I could have lived without the "old women" reference.

S.a.S-Akbari

06-08-2007, 03:05 PM

^^^ - Whining is different then stating our opinion.

simulacra

06-08-2007, 03:29 PM

TFS_Jackie edit: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Lil Proximo7

06-08-2007, 04:34 PM

TFS_Jackie: Dude not cool. Let's tone down some of the graphic language.

simulacra

06-08-2007, 05:52 PM

TFS_Jackie edit: There is a thread set aside for those who want to discuss other possibilities for the series. I think we should respect the wishes of the OP and let them have this discussion.

If you wish a more positive thread, there is one available.

Knot3D

06-08-2007, 10:48 PM

playing it on the person is always the weakest immature thing to do.

If i reword an argument in discussion, just because i am trying to get a point accross - which the opposing debater doesn't seem to understand/acknowledge...yet ; that's not whining - that's good debating right there for you.

on the 'winning side' is debatable too, because even the pro-Conviction people will not know exactly how they feel having spent money, once they start playing that game.

Chinese_Bookey

06-09-2007, 06:38 AM

Flaming is healthy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Knot3D

06-09-2007, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Chinese_Bookey:
Flaming is healthy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

In light of recent state of forum affairs, it might be a good idea to rename this ( and similair ) thread to something like "Conviction Critiques & Alternate Suggestions" ....

marinius

06-09-2007, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Knot3D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chinese_Bookey:
Flaming is healthy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

In light of recent state of forum affairs, it might be a good idea to rename this ( and similair ) thread to something like "Conviction Critiques & Alternate Suggestions" .... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree Knot, I really don't like the word "flame" because I don't believe that's what we should be doing. However, in the SCC suck up-thread Jackie stepped in to stop people with negative views on the game from posting. She should do the same here. I guess I'll do it in her stead: People like simulacra, who is clearly enthusiastic about SCC has nothing to do in this thread. Please leave us alone and be a Ubi-fanboy somewhere else!

Knot3D

06-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Ow.. i do think however, Simulacra has full right to post counter arguments in this thread...but he should NOT stoop himself down to call people 'whiners'. Such immature attitude....

Brownsnakeeyes

06-09-2007, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by simulacra:
If you do it once yes, if you repeat it over and over and over and over again, taking EVERY chance of dumping your own personal opinion on everyone else in every conceiveble thred I call it whining, no matter how informed the poster is.
If some of you ppl dont like the game, fine, but what is the point of this incessant anti-ism?

As I said earlier, some of you sound religious, you follow the church os SC1 to the letter.

I made this thread for those that don't like or agree with the new direction of Conviction. And maybe stopping the clutter of the forum. By you coming here to disrupt this thread should be grounds for banning. But most likely a mod will find it convenient to close it.

If you have a problem with us then I would advise you to go here http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5271091065/m/6861064365

Jackie Fiest

06-09-2007, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Chinese_Bookey:
Flaming is healthy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Flaming is a very good way to get yourself shipped off to ban island. I'm tired of seeing this community falling apart. If you can't post without flaming, you won't be allowed to post.

I edited the post of the person who was calling you whiners and I apologize for the inconvience. Please let me know if any further mod assistance is needed.

Chinese_Bookey

06-09-2007, 03:44 PM

I feel so at home in this thread. We can word vomit all over this game, and no one will call us whiners because Jackie will shove a cyberfoot between their buttocks if they do. It's a win-win situation either way. Solid.

Jackie Fiest

06-09-2007, 04:12 PM

Actually I find when you are looking for results, it is more effective to kick men in a different place. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif hehe

Knot3D

06-09-2007, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Chinese_Bookey:
We can word vomit all over this game

Actually, i would suggest to NOT mindlessly flame/vomit this game.

Threads like this can become a sensible form fanbase/customer feedback.
Simulacra was wrong about the critique postings (i see you have adopted my threadname suggestion, Jackie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Because ... every critique until now, he disagrees with to such an extent that he can't see it anymore from a view point, other than his own. Any new argument, even if well underbuilt, he will dismiss as whining. At that point he just becomes a person who thinks " whatever ! I don't wanna hear anything from you anymore "

The boards are here to debate too, thus reworded opinions should have a place as well, even though the game is way into development already ; it's always good to voice out.

Anyway, my suggestion, for Conviction, would have been :

Why not let Sam Fisher have a breather : omitting him from SC5 and let him return for SC6 ?

They could have made SC5 - Conviction, with gameplay as it is in development now ; starring Hisham Hamza, or Francis Coen investigating 3rd Echelon. It would only take a couple of script changes. No worries to have to alter the game engine. Sam went off radar at SC DA's ending... It would have been nice to play Conviction as Hamza and then discover things about 3rd Echelon and investigating Sam's whereabouts on the side in secracy. Then the story would kind of view upon Sam from a 3rd person narrative ( kind of like how Solid Snake was seen as NPC in MGS2 )

Then, after Conviction, have Sam resurface in SC6, back with truely evolved SC CT gameplay and visuals.

Why haven't Ubi CEO's given such an option serious thought ? It both brings fresh breeze to the series and it gives alot of fans, what they want, back in SC6. Succes franchise marketing plan for the next 3 years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Chinese_Bookey

06-10-2007, 06:59 AM

Oh, I meant "word vomit" in a positive sense. No mindlessness involved. @_@

Knot3D

06-10-2007, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Chinese_Bookey:
Oh, I meant "word vomit" in a positive sense. No mindlessness involved. @_@

0rLy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Brownsnakeeyes

06-10-2007, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Knot3D:
(i see you have adopted my threadname suggestion, Jackie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Nope actually I did.

Knot3D

06-10-2007, 07:08 PM

Woops. then, Kudos to you man, instead of Jackie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Chinese_Bookey

06-10-2007, 09:47 PM

Yay, Brownsnakeeyes! Boo, Jackie!

*gets shipped off to ban island* http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Brownsnakeeyes

06-11-2007, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Chinese_Bookey:
Yay, Brownsnakeeyes! Boo, Jackie!

*gets shipped off to ban island* http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

marinius

06-12-2007, 10:51 AM

I fear this comment from another thread is rather telling when it comes to the state of affairs:

"i think convicitions is the best sp game ever to me.i like h2h kombat nd fighting!i am new here too.i hope it is not rated m coz that sux coz i am 14.gogo convictins!"

Now, I could've made this one up myself to try and be sarcastic about the way things are going. I didn't have to, it's an actual opinion. Someone asked if this young teen segment is what Ubi is targeting now. From what I see and hear these days, I believe that may very well be the case.

What I'm having a difficult time understanding is this:
there is a multitude of games today that focus on fighting, shooting and general action gameplay. If this new kind of gameplay that Ubi is raving about turns out to be less than stellar, there's a good chance SCC will simply disappear in the midst of a lot of other action-oriented games that might in their own way outshine it. However, true stealth games are extremely hard to come by. I realize there's a smaller market for these more mature games, but wouldn't it make sense to refine and "perfect" this true stealth-franchise and be the biggest and best in this smaller pond rather than being medium-sized (and dull!) in the big pond?

I can only hope we will see a return to more traditional SC-stealth sometime in the future and that Ubi's market analysts don't completely take over the company.

Knot3D

06-12-2007, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by marinius:
I fear this comment from another thread is rather telling when it comes to the state of affairs:

"i think convicitions is the best sp game ever to me.i like h2h kombat nd fighting!i am new here too.i hope it is not rated m coz that sux coz i am 14.gogo convictins!"

Now, I could've made this one up myself to try and be sarcastic about the way things are going. I didn't have to, it's an actual opinion. Someone asked if this young teen segment is what Ubi is targeting now. From what I see and hear these days, I believe that may very well be the case.

What I'm having a difficult time understanding is this:
there is a multitude of games today that focus on fighting, shooting and general action gameplay. If this new kind of gameplay that Ubi is raving about turns out to be less than stellar, there's a good chance SCC will simply disappear in the midst of a lot of other action-oriented games that might in their own way outshine it. However, true stealth games are extremely hard to come by. I realize there's a smaller market for these more mature games, but wouldn't it make sense to refine and "perfect" this true stealth-franchise and be the biggest and best in this smaller pond rather than being medium-sized (and dull!) in the big pond?

I can only hope we will see a return to more traditional SC-stealth sometime in the future and that Ubi's market analysts don't completely take over the company.

While giving it benefit of doubt, i'd still say there's a high probability that the gameplay is partially what Hitman Bloodmoney has already established, with only a the difference that it now features an expensive physics engine and months of procedural animation.

That's a nasty side effect of next gen phyiscs actually .... devs / publishers now over use it, and in the most un subtle ways possible ; as if the new physics demand that gameplay HAS to smash and brawl up things/characters.

Like i said before.. all this new tech could have been used way more subtle and ingenious, giving new depth to CT gameplay.

NuclearDragon

06-12-2007, 12:20 PM

you are jaelous that you can not make such game.i readed rhoulets post so i say that that is my opinion.i hope you enjoy sp convictins when it is release ok?

NuclearDragon

06-12-2007, 12:23 PM

nd fighting is coooooooooool nd i want blood nd braken bones with the fininsshing moves

wallz0r

06-12-2007, 12:46 PM

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

simulacra

06-12-2007, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Knot3D:

Threads like this can become a sensible form fanbase/customer feedback.
Simulacra was wrong about the critique postings (i see you have adopted my threadname suggestion, Jackie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Because ... every critique until now, he disagrees with to such an extent that he can't see it anymore from a view point, other than his own. Any new argument, even if well underbuilt, he will dismiss as whining. At that point he just becomes a person who thinks " whatever ! I don't wanna hear anything from you anymore "

The boards are here to debate too, thus reworded opinions should have a place as well, even though the game is way into development already ; it's always good to voice out.

If only the negative posts were critique, critique are posts based on knowledge and reason.
What we see is venting, and most negative posts are reworded regurgitation of said venting.

And should I think differently? Should I join the choir of naysayers venting?
I LIKE the new direction, it's 10 times closer to how operatives might work when they're blown and pursued, in comparison SC was way more of a "cool" sort, where the coolnes decided all.
I Still say that only ubi knows who sam is, and only they know where he should go next.

And SCC being for teens? Is that why they're going for an M rating right off the bat?
Not even CT had it's m rating confirmed this close after announcement.
Last time I checked taking guards down was optional, I think you can work your way forward in similar ways as in old SC, some ppl say that the stealth in SCC is ridiculous "just turn your head away from the guard and stand in a crowd and you're safe".
Ppl seem to be forgetting that SCCT had dark patches in rooms with a light backgrounds, you could sit in that dark patch and you were invisible no matter that the guard should have seen your outline against the background.
If you think about it you might remeber ALOT of moments when sam was more invisible than he would have been were the game real.

But still, every little new detail in SCC is ridiculous you can go more offensive against antagonists "booo, it's a fighting game only for kiddies!!11" he's got longer hair "booo, he looks like some emo!!1"
Do you ppl REALLY think that ubi would kill off the spplinter cell they created?
Or are you just trying to take pot shots at an easy target just because their decisions dont agree with your subjective opinion?
I believe the latter is right...

NuclearDragon

06-12-2007, 12:57 PM

hello mister simulacra.you also like finising moves?nd blood!!!!

simulacra

06-12-2007, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by NuclearDragon:
hello mister simulacra.you also like finising moves?nd blood!!!!
Do you like trolling?

NuclearDragon

06-12-2007, 01:12 PM

i tyep fast hahah nd what is trolling????

wallz0r

06-12-2007, 01:14 PM

Trolling

To use the internet to start problems, insult, or hurt others. An action that only usually affects the person trolling.

Source: Urbandictionary.com

NuclearDragon

06-12-2007, 01:17 PM

no respect!!!!!listen to rhoulet nd i hope you get banned

NuclearDragon

06-12-2007, 02:10 PM

i talked to simulacra.nd english is hard for me ok?i am dyslexic

wallz0r

06-12-2007, 02:21 PM

Ow sorry for the misunderstanding.

I'm an idiot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

marinius

06-12-2007, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by simulacra:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knot3D:

Threads like this can become a sensible form fanbase/customer feedback.
Simulacra was wrong about the critique postings (i see you have adopted my threadname suggestion, Jackie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Because ... every critique until now, he disagrees with to such an extent that he can't see it anymore from a view point, other than his own. Any new argument, even if well underbuilt, he will dismiss as whining. At that point he just becomes a person who thinks " whatever ! I don't wanna hear anything from you anymore "

The boards are here to debate too, thus reworded opinions should have a place as well, even though the game is way into development already ; it's always good to voice out.

If only the negative posts were critique, critique are posts based on knowledge and reason.
What we see is venting, and most negative posts are reworded regurgitation of said venting.

And should I think differently? Should I join the choir of naysayers venting?
I LIKE the new direction, it's 10 times closer to how operatives might work when they're blown and pursued, in comparison SC was way more of a "cool" sort, where the coolnes decided all.
I Still say that only ubi knows who sam is, and only they know where he should go next.

And SCC being for teens? Is that why they're going for an M rating right off the bat?
Not even CT had it's m rating confirmed this close after announcement.
Last time I checked taking guards down was optional, I think you can work your way forward in similar ways as in old SC, some ppl say that the stealth in SCC is ridiculous "just turn your head away from the guard and stand in a crowd and you're safe".
Ppl seem to be forgetting that SCCT had dark patches in rooms with a light backgrounds, you could sit in that dark patch and you were invisible no matter that the guard should have seen your outline against the background.
If you think about it you might remeber ALOT of moments when sam was more invisible than he would have been were the game real.

But still, every little new detail in SCC is ridiculous you can go more offensive against antagonists "booo, it's a fighting game only for kiddies!!11" he's got longer hair "booo, he looks like some emo!!1"
Do you ppl REALLY think that ubi would kill off the spplinter cell they created?
Or are you just trying to take pot shots at an easy target just because their decisions dont agree with your subjective opinion?
I believe the latter is right... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well simulacra, here you go again...I managed to get your posts in this thread edited/stricken by Jackie once, but you didn't get her message, did you? If I may quote the thread starter Brownsnakeeyes then:

"This thread is for those that don't like the direction that UBI has felt necessary to take this series. Please no one post here that likes the new direction. This is a thread for those that disapprove of it."

To repeat myself, as you seem so fond of doing yourself, take your incessant bashing of people who think differently than you to other threads! Better yet, cut it out altogether.

Doogsy1

06-13-2007, 12:47 AM

This is a COMMUNITY forum.

simulacra

06-13-2007, 01:01 AM

So that makes ME free to start a thread where I decide the rules?
Have you checked the pro-scc thread?
There's a bunch of negative threads in there, hey what you say about us making the mods inte censors, constantly changing every post that does not fit?

This is a free speech forum, there is nothing in the rules about the thread starter having control of what ppl are allowed to say in a thread.

And that part about you getting jackie to edit my posts and being able to do so again sounds more like a threat against my right to post whatever I like, some of my posts wasn't even anything else than my reflection of the majority of posts that have been made in this forum since the announcement which have been some ppl venting.

marinius

06-13-2007, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by simulacra:
SO that makes me free to start a thread where I decide the rules?
Have you checked the pro-scc thread?
There's a bunch of negative threads in there, hey what you say about us making the mods inte censors, constantly changing every post that does not fit?

I certainly haven't posted in the pro-SCC thread, as I respect people wanting to discuss with other people of a like mind. It was clearly stated in that thread that people with negative opinions should stay away, therefore I did exactly that. You, on the other hand, lack that level of respect, so you come here to mess this thread up.

It really isn't too much to ask of people to leave one of two threads in this forum alone, depending on their outlook of the game. There are enough threads available to put forth your views.

Knot3D

06-13-2007, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by simulacra:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knot3D:

Threads like this can become a sensible form fanbase/customer feedback.
Simulacra was wrong about the critique postings (i see you have adopted my threadname suggestion, Jackie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Because ... every critique until now, he disagrees with to such an extent that he can't see it anymore from a view point, other than his own. Any new argument, even if well underbuilt, he will dismiss as whining. At that point he just becomes a person who thinks " whatever ! I don't wanna hear anything from you anymore "

The boards are here to debate too, thus reworded opinions should have a place as well, even though the game is way into development already ; it's always good to voice out.

If only the negative posts were critique, critique are posts based on knowledge and reason.
What we see is venting, and most negative posts are reworded regurgitation of said venting.

And should I think differently? Should I join the choir of naysayers venting?
I LIKE the new direction, it's 10 times closer to how operatives might work when they're blown and pursued, in comparison SC was way more of a "cool" sort, where the coolnes decided all.
I Still say that only ubi knows who sam is, and only they know where he should go next.

And SCC being for teens? Is that why they're going for an M rating right off the bat?
Not even CT had it's m rating confirmed this close after announcement.
Last time I checked taking guards down was optional, I think you can work your way forward in similar ways as in old SC, some ppl say that the stealth in SCC is ridiculous "just turn your head away from the guard and stand in a crowd and you're safe".
Ppl seem to be forgetting that SCCT had dark patches in rooms with a light backgrounds, you could sit in that dark patch and you were invisible no matter that the guard should have seen your outline against the background.
If you think about it you might remeber ALOT of moments when sam was more invisible than he would have been were the game real.

But still, every little new detail in SCC is ridiculous you can go more offensive against antagonists "booo, it's a fighting game only for kiddies!!11" he's got longer hair "booo, he looks like some emo!!1"
Do you ppl REALLY think that ubi would kill off the spplinter cell they created?
Or are you just trying to take pot shots at an easy target just because their decisions dont agree with your subjective opinion?
I believe the latter is right... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't speak for everyone else, but at least i stand for my arguments ;

arguments, critiques and alternative suggestions which you have either NOT bothered to read OR you just didn't understand my points OR you're just as biased towards the game as you claim others are, in turn making you fail to see what my crits & suggestions actually mean.

To save you some typing trouble, i will just let it slide with a " we can agree that we just disagree about the game ", but you gotta stop claiming that people's critiques and suggestions are, per definition "whining". Also, YOU have nothing to worry about... afterall, you're getting the type of game you want, so ..why get all worked up over whatever i say ?

Besides, if there's one thing which doesn't need mental protection, it's companies. Consumer voice FTW.

simulacra

06-13-2007, 03:48 AM

I'm merely asking what the point of posting massive negativity about a game in it's forums if you have no interest in buying the game?

This will be my last post in this thread and I'll try and summarize what I mean.

IF the tables were turned and sc5 would become a MP-only game, I would post in the first "wtf no sp in SC5??!" thread, then read up for a week to confirm that the new splinter cell wouldn't contain anything that interest me, and then I'd disappear not to be heard of again until SC6 is announced, it really is that simple.

marinius

06-13-2007, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by simulacra:
I'm merely asking what the point of posting massive negativity about a game in it's forums if you have no interest in buying the game?

Fine, go ask that question somewhere else, maybe you'll get an answer that is to your satisfaction and there'll be no more bashing everyone with an attitude different from yours.

For me that question is completely irrelevant for a number of reasons:

1) I will buy the game.

2) Discussing how you feel about what appears to be a complete and utter change in gameplay in the franchise you love is not "posting massive negativity about a game".

3) The question, if you absolutely have to pose it, should be asked in any other thread.

Woosy

06-13-2007, 04:50 AM

Well my critique would be why such a drastic change in not only in the core gameplay/characters but the overall formula and foundation. One of the great things about Splinter Cell is the story and characters first and foremost, they bring across emotion, from grit, humor anger, and sadness and overall it feels realistic from 1-2-3. One of the most unique things about Splinter Cell is the impact a certain tragedy has on the world inside the gameworld, which is usualy shown on the news channels etc... This provides alot of immersion which is now missing.

When Double Agent came out, the overall gameplay ruined it for many reasons. It gave the appearence that the storyline was dynamic, i.e choices, this was false. The storyline was full of potholes, the characters felt substandard and the emotion wasn't really there. There wasn't much interaction from the rest of the team and the game just felt naked, it needed more immersion, and more interaction. The idea of killing Sam Fishers daughter, and not expanding on that was poor, their excuse is to make Sam Fisher a darker persona is silly, every game that we've played so far Sam has lost a friend, isn't that enough for Ubisoft? very sadistic indeed.

So you now have ConVictions, it boggles my mind or anyone who reads far to much into it. But what motivation has Sam got to keep on living? No daughter no motivation, most men/fathers would of turned the gun on themselves, just look at solid snake as an example in those new video's putting the gun in his mouth about to bite the bullet, no motivation from depression and overworked. Infact I think of Sam Fisher as being a broken and suicidal man, not a more darker persona. The gameplay elements to this game shock me to a new level. Why copy and paste Assassins Creed's formula on Splinter Cell, up to including altars special ability to see bad guys? Then create new levels designed around Fisher and call it Splinter Cell? It's an insult to our inteligence.

I would of taken Chaos Theory, expanded on what has worked, add the crowd element in and the improved AI. Give gamers a variety of missions, based on, standard NSA night time stealth using standard light/dark gameplay, some daylight missions similar to hitman where you have to go through a civilian population and not get noticed (if you do the authority figures come to take you down), get in as a civilian, get the information/assassination and extract out. It seems like they have run out of ideas for Splinter Cell, instead of keeping inline with a consistent forumla of what a Splinter Cell is and what defines a Splinter Cell they rather change it, may i suggest creating a new IP on Splinter cell and excluding Fisher? Which would allow you to experiment on this new gameplay element.

As we all know Double Agent didn't do very well at all, it's reception was very low compared to Chaos Theory. Chaos Theory not only retained the hardcore fanbase, but brought in new fans to the franchise, with intuitive controls and more moves. It upheld the storylines it's known for, it kept the gamers immersed in the characters, and added a slice of dry humor to add a cherry to the top so to speak. I don't see any of this happening like the previous games before Double Agent. As in Double Agent alot of the sounds, korean ones, where copied and pasted into Double Agent, you had South Africans sounding like koreans and reguigurating lines from Chaos Theory... I'm sorry but if ConVictions is anything like that, it will fail on the basic level of game design, gamers aren't stupid.

I can only applaud, Hideo Kojima (MGS) and IO Interactive (Hitman 47) for creating games with a formula and keeping consistent, and evolving them in innovative ways thatblow my mind and keep me immersed. I look to the future of games such as Kayne and Lynch from IO Interactive, they know creating Hitman like that would be a bad idea, so create a new IP, which looks fun and exciting. I think Ubisoft need to hear, because they don't take notes, that if this new title fails you, it would be better to go back to what worked yo know Double Agent failed, they seem to miss the fact why it failed, so scrap it as being out dated, rather then the fact that it was buggy, had plot holes, and it felt rushed. There is no shame in going back to the old system, it's far better to do that, get back some self dignity and make games that "gamers" which to play on a major level.

marinius

06-13-2007, 04:56 AM

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Very well put indeed!

Brownsnakeeyes

06-13-2007, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Woosy:
Well my critique would be why such a drastic change in not only in the core gameplay/characters but the overall formula and foundation. One of the great things about Splinter Cell is the story and characters first and foremost, they bring across emotion, from grit, humor anger, and sadness and overall it feels realistic from 1-2-3. One of the most unique things about Splinter Cell is the impact a certain tragedy has on the world inside the gameworld, which is usualy shown on the news channels etc... This provides alot of immersion which is now missing.

When Double Agent came out, the overall gameplay ruined it for many reasons. It gave the appearence that the storyline was dynamic, i.e choices, this was false. The storyline was full of potholes, the characters felt substandard and the emotion wasn't really there. There wasn't much interaction from the rest of the team and the game just felt naked, it needed more immersion, and more interaction. The idea of killing Sam Fishers daughter, and not expanding on that was poor, their excuse is to make Sam Fisher a darker persona is silly, every game that we've played so far Sam has lost a friend, isn't that enough for Ubisoft? very sadistic indeed.

So you now have ConVictions, it boggles my mind or anyone who reads far to much into it. But what motivation has Sam got to keep on living? No daughter no motivation, most men/fathers would of turned the gun on themselves, just look at solid snake as an example in those new video's putting the gun in his mouth about to bite the bullet, no motivation from depression and overworked. Infact I think of Sam Fisher as being a broken and suicidal man, not a more darker persona. The gameplay elements to this game shock me to a new level. Why copy and paste Assassins Creed's formula on Splinter Cell, up to including altars special ability to see bad guys? Then create new levels designed around Fisher and call it Splinter Cell? It's an insult to our inteligence.

I would of taken Chaos Theory, expanded on what has worked, add the crowd element in and the improved AI. Give gamers a variety of missions, based on, standard NSA night time stealth using standard light/dark gameplay, some daylight missions similar to hitman where you have to go through a civilian population and not get noticed (if you do the authority figures come to take you down), get in as a civilian, get the information/assassination and extract out. It seems like they have run out of ideas for Splinter Cell, instead of keeping inline with a consistent forumla of what a Splinter Cell is and what defines a Splinter Cell they rather change it, may i suggest creating a new IP on Splinter cell and excluding Fisher? Which would allow you to experiment on this new gameplay element.

As we all know Double Agent didn't do very well at all, it's reception was very low compared to Chaos Theory. Chaos Theory not only retained the hardcore fanbase, but brought in new fans to the franchise, with intuitive controls and more moves. It upheld the storylines it's known for, it kept the gamers immersed in the characters, and added a slice of dry humor to add a cherry to the top so to speak. I don't see any of this happening like the previous games before Double Agent. As in Double Agent alot of the sounds, korean ones, where copied and pasted into Double Agent, you had South Africans sounding like koreans and reguigurating lines from Chaos Theory... I'm sorry but if ConVictions is anything like that, it will fail on the basic level of game design, gamers aren't stupid.

I can only applaud, Hideo Kojima (MGS) and IO Interactive (Hitman 47) for creating games with a formula and keeping consistent, and evolving them in innovative ways thatblow my mind and keep me immersed. I look to the future of games such as Kayne and Lynch from IO Interactive, they know creating Hitman like that would be a bad idea, so create a new IP, which looks fun and exciting. I think Ubisoft need to hear, because they don't take notes, that if this new title fails you, it would be better to go back to what worked yo know Double Agent failed, they seem to miss the fact why it failed, so scrap it as being out dated, rather then the fact that it was buggy, had plot holes, and it felt rushed. There is no shame in going back to the old system, it's far better to do that, get back some self dignity and make games that "gamers" which to play on a major level.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Might I add that UBI did change the MP in DA to attract more people. But how many people are still buying and playing DA?

No one on my friends list has played DA in months. I have around 90 people too.

It just goes to show that changing things in an already established franchise isn't the way to go.

I also see that there's no reason why UBI couldn't have added the new CQC system with a gameplay like CT.

Instead we are getting a copy of AC. This is made me see that UBI is first a company wanting to make as much money as possible. And trying to make the fans happy is a distant second.

Knot3D

06-13-2007, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by simulacra:
I'm merely asking what the point of posting massive negativity about a game in it's forums if you have no interest in buying the game?

IF the tables were turned and sc5 would become a MP-only game, I would post in the first "wtf no sp in SC5??!" thread, then read up for a week to confirm that the new splinter cell wouldn't contain anything that interest me, and then I'd disappear not to be heard of again until SC6 is announced, it really is that simple.

I'm not sure whether you were directly replying post or just to everyone, but if it's to just my post ; right there - i, myself have not hinted at wanting a MP only SC5 ! I never did. So, there's not even a "what IF, tables turned" hypothesis to be made.

The thing is, you only see "massive negativity". In a way you have made yourself oblivious to see that alot of those post actually contain gameplay demands which make sense and are proven game SKU sales factors.

About not voicing until SC6 is announced (in regards the no-interest-sc5-factor) ; There's actual history to this game franchise. What if your favourite band radically switches genre at a new album release ? (which you happen to dislike) NEVER EVER let consumer voice be muffled. The guys with the best crits & suggestions actually care the most.

Originally posted by Woosy:
just look at solid snake as an example in those new video's putting the gun in his mouth about to bite the bullet, no motivation from depression and overworked. Why copy and paste Assassins Creed's formula on Splinter Cell, up to including altars special ability to see bad guys? Then create new levels designed around Fisher and call it Splinter Cell? It's an insult to our inteligence.
(Heheh. MGS trailers are always mind****s to keep us guessing at the final storyline. Also, remember the TGS05 trailer ; Snake tells Otacon he has found "a new light" when he lits up his cigarette ; it means he refound a reason to keep on fighting)

The main reason for Assassin's Creed alike elements is game R&D COST efficiency AC development costs alot of money and thus it's best, for Ubi, to earn back costs, by copy pasting it onto other games of theirs ; the "repaint job", the oldest trick of the company book.

Originally posted by Woosy:
I would of taken Chaos Theory, expanded on what has worked, add the crowd element in and the improved AI. Give gamers a variety of missions, based on, standard NSA night time stealth using standard light/dark gameplay, some daylight missions similar to hitman where you have to go through a civilian population and not get noticed (if you do the authority figures come to take you down), get in as a civilian, get the information/assassination and extract out. It seems like they have run out of ideas for Splinter Cell, instead of keeping inline with a consistent forumla of what a Splinter Cell is and what defines a Splinter Cell they rather change it, may i suggest creating a new IP on Splinter cell and excluding Fisher? Which would allow you to experiment on this new gameplay element.

Indeed. Many pro Conviction fans fail to see the depth of potential, still in SC gameplay, where it was at Chaos Theory. What Ubi is basically telling us with Conviction is :

- Somehow, they (Ubi) still cannot (or COST reluctant) achieve a game engine in which the AI can actually recognize realtime casted shadows, a more realistic Ai recognition of light and dark levels, silhouettes and reflections AND react accordingly coherent to it. Actually achieving this, would finally establish the truely realistic shadow play challenge which former SC's kind of faked. Having to really watch your own shadows would indeed refresh the series.

"Somehow we failed to obtain the licenses for a Bourne Identity game and we already lost out on a 24 game license, at cost efficient prices" - "Let's just use the existing Splinter Cell fame (or what's left of it after DA) and re-use it's IP to earn back, the AI Crowd techniques and the Animation Blending techniques".

"SC DA multiplayer wasn't such a succes afterall. Maybe it's best to get rid of those SC CT MP fanatics and just hope alot of new fans will latch onto Crowd Multiplayer".

above mentioned reasons are imo the REAL reasons for the state of SC affairs.

http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/8/6/13/f_truesnake01m_f5c0a04.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img40&img=/8/6/13/f_truesnake01m_f5c0a04.jpg)

Georg_Maximus

06-15-2007, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Woosy:
Chaos Theory not only retained the hardcore fanbase, but brought in new fans to the franchise, with intuitive controls and more moves. It upheld the storylines it's known for, it kept the gamers immersed in the characters, and added a slice of dry humor to add a cherry to the top so to speak.

I totally agree on your entire post, but quoted this paragraph as what you say here goes for for me personally. I had been playing action games and FPS shooters only when I read CT's applauding reviews, and that was when I decided to try out the SC franchise. Although SC1 and 2 admittedly did seem a little too slow after years of DOOM and Quake, the gameplay eventually grew on me and I truly learned to appreciate the concept of sneaking around enemies rather than just mowing them down. Where traditional action games - a category which SC unfortunately seems to drift into - is all about increasing the size of your guns, the amount of your strength or the complexity of your combo attacks, SC's intensity and suspense lay in all the things you *couldn't* do: you couldn't just run into an enemy and knock him over or blow his brains out. The *less* guns, gadgets and stuff you possessed, the more intense the gameplay became. And seeing how this core gameplay concept has the potential of evolving into shadow, reflection and silouhette detection with the added possibilities of new moves like, for instance, crawling and special light ray evasion moves, it's sad that the game developers don't have more faith in their initial concept than seeing a total change in gameplay as the only way to evolve the franchise. In my world of FPS shooters, SC brought a totally new and unique gaming experience that would undoubtedly have appealed to an increasingly larger audience if only Ubisoft would have the same belief in it as its fans have had and developed it accordingly.

Jazket

06-18-2007, 06:19 PM

Conviction is not to be compared to MGS, what in the world is wrong with yall? Haven't you been playing SC for the last 3 years?

Imagine Conviction with the gameplay and game-strategy from Double Agent... Come on! Ubisoft is doing it right.. they're just buying time to get Sam back to where he came from... the story is developing good... he was a Double Agent, he was part of a Terrorist Band, you don't think its time for the Government to be on his arse by now? Or do you think our Goverment just lets those thing slip away (Like blowing up a Cruiser full of people!)

Come on... Splinter Cell has never being close to being even compared, just a tiny bit, to Metal Gear Solid...

I believe CV will get Sam back on his trail for the next SC after CV, just wait and see...

convictedagent

06-18-2007, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Knot3D:
That's basically what the SC Conviction lovers are doing as well ; they're saying ;

- "it would be the boring same old same old"
- "there would be no way to improve upon the core concept"
-"let me play my G' dam Bauer/Bourne badas s infused Sam Fisher !"

Meh, frankly i dont like the change either, but since I dont picture Ubi caving, scrapping the game, and giving us what we love. So i might as well (even if its hipocritical) just embrace the new. I will miss the originals.

As for my critiques its nothing that hasn't already been said. Though im not dead set against crowd multi until I understand WTH it is.

P.S. honestly Jaz I dont think Sams gonna make it out alive. I really want him to live but at the same time an ending where he just walks away would just feel... greedy.

Knot3D

06-18-2007, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Jazket:
Conviction is not to be compared to MGS, what in the world is wrong with yall? Haven't you been playing SC for the last 3 years?

Just because I post 1 MGS pic ?

Anyway, MGS had previously been mentioned in discussion just to show how it remains fresh while staying true to it's original gameplay.

MKCC14

06-19-2007, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by Knot3D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jazket:
Conviction is not to be compared to MGS, what in the world is wrong with yall? Haven't you been playing SC for the last 3 years?

Just because I post 1 MGS pic ?

Anyway, MGS had previously been mentioned in discussion just to show how it remains fresh while staying true to it's original gameplay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haha, the only reason MGS stealth gameplay has been still appealing to their fans is because they dont even get to play it that much in the game. Most of the game you would be there sitting down reading or listening to Colonel Campbell or someone else talking. I dont think you would want that in a SC game, right? Because there is about only 2 hours of gameplay in the last MGS game i played.

Knot3D

06-19-2007, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by MKCC14:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knot3D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jazket:
Conviction is not to be compared to MGS, what in the world is wrong with yall? Haven't you been playing SC for the last 3 years?

Just because I post 1 MGS pic ?

Anyway, MGS had previously been mentioned in discussion just to show how it remains fresh while staying true to it's original gameplay. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haha, the only reason MGS stealth gameplay has been still appealing to their fans is because they dont even get to play it that much in the game. Most of the game you would be there sitting down reading or listening to Colonel Campbell or someone else talking. I dont think you would want that in a SC game, right? Because there is about only 2 hours of gameplay in the last MGS game i played. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah.. to ridicule MGS is an artform

You're incorrect about the gameplay time, and it shows you're not even looking at my argument seriously. Try MGS3 Subsistence, with the new camera, on Extreme level... and then you'll take a whole lot longer.

In fact, the new cam makes the game play more like SC...but it's optional, one click on the button and you can switch back to vintage MGS overhead camera.

Anyway...Konami's smart enough to constantly innovate MGS gameplay yet staying true to it's roots. They leave gameplay devations to spin off games ; the card based tactic game MG Acid.
For # they're pushing the envelope from the point where MGS3 gameplay brought them ; the Octocamo is basically an evolved MGS3 camo system. The sneaking suit looks awesome. Hoodie not included.

FARLEYFAN

06-19-2007, 09:40 PM

Why would sneaking through crowds with a hoodie be more attractive then sneaking around in a sooped up CT environment. I smell yet another FLOP. I think that Ubi thought DA's MP would attract more players and it was a flop, and I expect the same from Ubi with Convictions. Why change it again? Why change it again when the first time you changed it, it sucked so hard. I am thinkin' change it back. They want their original fanbase back, correct? They lost almost all of it with DA, correct? I just don't know what they are thinking.

godofzer0

06-19-2007, 11:21 PM

personally I think the new splinter cell is going to be awesome. It's exactly how I thought it was going to be. I love the idea of Sam being on the run to me it's a true test of his abilities. I've heard a lot of people say that's it's going to bomb but i think the true "splinter cells" out there would disagree. Like I said I thought the next splinter cell would take this direction and I can't wait for it.

marinius

06-20-2007, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by godofzer0:
personally I think the new splinter cell is going to be awesome. It's exactly how I thought it was going to be. I love the idea of Sam being on the run to me it's a true test of his abilities. I've heard a lot of people say that's it's going to bomb but i think the true "splinter cells" out there would disagree. Like I said I thought the next splinter cell would take this direction and I can't wait for it.

Wow, if it's true that you saw the next SC-game heading in this direction before Ubi revealed anything I must say I'm a tad bewildered by the way your mind works. I for one did NOT see this coming, but then again how could I? Loving the first 3 games I never would have dreamed this franchise would come to what it apparently has come to. The concept of stealt being altered to overtly following guys in parks and for some reason not looking suspicious - again, not what I had in mind for the next game in this franchise.

As for "true splinter cells" not thinking this is gonna bomb, well, depends on what you mean by that. If by that you mean true fans of the game since SC1 I believe you are quite wrong to say the least.

MKCC14

06-20-2007, 06:51 AM

We shouldnt try to classify the "true" SC fans. It will just lead to a big war here on these boards.

Brownsnakeeyes

06-20-2007, 04:02 PM

MKCC14

06-20-2007, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by godofzer0:
personally I think the new splinter cell is going to be awesome. It's exactly how I thought it was going to be. I love the idea of Sam being on the run to me it's a true test of his abilities. I've heard a lot of people say that's it's going to bomb but i think the true "splinter cells" out there would disagree. Like I said I thought the next splinter cell would take this direction and I can't wait for it.

If you can't take the time to either read or understand my first post for this thread then don't reply here. We don't care if you like the new direction. And we don't care what your opinion is either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um yeah, you're in the wrong thread. This is the thread for the people that dont like the new direction at all. I dont even know why i came in here in the first place, guess i made a mistake.

Cheeserdude

06-21-2007, 05:34 PM

Yeah i know I prob shouldn't be here cuz i like the game, but i gots some constructive criticism.

Most of it i'm ok with. i don't mind a tense situation once in a while and the way they put the fights in was mostly ok imo. I don't mind social stealth either. But the fact that he can take on 3 guys at once and never really uses "sneaky" stealth i.e. crouching and crepping up on people like in all the other games... c;mon, you've just gotta keep that stuff in, it's what gave the game identity. keep the fights realistic and the sneak element in the game and i'd be fine. Anyone else feel this way?

SPROGGY

06-21-2007, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Cheeserdude:
Yeah i know I prob shouldn't be here cuz i like the game, but i gots some constructive criticism.

Most of it i'm ok with. i don't mind a tense situation once in a while and the way they put the fights in was mostly ok imo. I don't mind social stealth either. But the fact that he can take on 3 guys at once and never really uses "sneaky" stealth i.e. crouching and crepping up on people like in all the other games... c;mon, you've just gotta keep that stuff in, it's what gave the game identity. keep the fights realistic and the sneak element in the game and i'd be fine. Anyone else feel this way?

All of that stuff is in there, its just not new. The reason youve seen so much destruction and hand to hand combat is because theyve really expanded on those facets of the game. There will still be lots of stealth and espionage, and you can still silently take out the bad guys. But now that they have the ability to make fully destructible environments and more realistic A.I. they want to show it off. I think the beauty of the game is that you can play it however you want. The replay value will be insane.

FARLEYFAN

06-21-2007, 07:52 PM

Could you explain to me the facet of hand to hand combat that was never in SC? If you are talking about CQC then that is waaay different, it was never fighting, it was only for taking out baddies that were in the way of accomplishing your mission. There was never a facet of throwing everything you can find, I think you mean this game: Game you were thinking of (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadrising/index.html?tag=result;img;0)

SPROGGY

06-21-2007, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN:
Could you explain to me the facet of hand to hand combat that was never in SC?

Show me where I said H2H wasnt in previous SC titles........Did you even read my post? They have greatly improved upon the H2H by adding throws, additional strikes, and more grappling techniques. The older games had very little H2H in comparison.

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN: If you are talking about CQC then that is waaay different, it was never fighting, it was only for taking out baddies that were in the way of accomplishing your mission.

H2H combat and CQC are the same thing in principle. You must be in close quarters to fight H2H. And even though weapons can be used in CQC, H2H falls under the range of close quarters combat.Just because theyve expanded on it for Conviction doesnt mean they dont intend it to be used for the same purpose. The fact that they have expanded on it so thoroughly though is a good reason to show it off IMO.

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN:There was never a facet of throwing everything you can find, I think you mean this game: Game you were thinking of (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/deadrising/index.html?tag=result;img;0)

"Throwing everything you can find" may fall under CQC, but that doesnt mean they intend for you to play through the game that way. Like I said before, they are showing off the fully interactive environment. Maybe you would be happier if we just went back to almost nil CQC and very little interactivity like in SC1?

FARLEYFAN

06-21-2007, 08:23 PM

The thing is, whatever you call it, the fighting system isn't splinter cell anymore. It is like dead rising, or hitman. They could make it really interactive without use of throwing chairs and people. More like smackdown vs raw IMO. Whatever happened to the smooth system: neck slice, backstab, stomach shank, inverted neck break, punch to side of head, punch to side of head from behind, knee to the gut? All happened with such a beautiful animation and now all it is is throwing a chair at someone and they fall over, or throwing them into a table. Even though convictons may have the CQC I listed, it will be overshadowed by the stupidness of it's "interactivity".

MKCC14

06-21-2007, 08:34 PM

They didnt want the game to look close to the others. They did it on purpose to flesh out the fugitive experience and to continue the story which might end up with the death of Sam Fisher.

FARLEYFAN

06-21-2007, 08:41 PM

I completely understand that, but I don't see why they couldn't have made it "fugitive" style while still using the core gameplay mechanics. They could have made him still able to sneak around like other games and have the crowd mechanic. If they do that then I will be happy, of course along with a sooped up CT MP. I do understand that they had to change the story, but not exactly the whole experience.

SPROGGY

06-21-2007, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN:
The thing is, whatever you call it, the fighting system isn't splinter cell anymore.

How do you figure? You can still silently and decisively incapacitate a sentry just like in previous games. But with the new direction they really NEEDED to expand on it. In a real operational scenario things rarely go to plan. Special Operations forces like the SEALs and SF have contingency plans that they drill excessively because of this very reason. So do CIA agents and commandos. Sam is all alone in Conviction. He doesnt have any fancy gadgets or an Osprey available for extract. What he does have are his wits and his Combat experience, more specifically his H2H knowledge. It may not feel entirely Splinter Cell anymore because Sam ISNT a Splinter Cell.

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN:It is like dead rising, or hitman. They could make it really interactive without use of throwing chairs and people.

No they couldnt. Think about it, it wouldnt truly be fully interactive if you couldnt do those things now would it. And just because you have the option doesnt mean you have to use it.

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN: More like smackdown vs raw IMO. Whatever happened to the smooth system: neck slice, backstab, stomach shank, inverted neck break, punch to side of head, punch to side of head from behind, knee to the gut? All happened with such a beautiful animation and now all it is is throwing a chair at someone and they fall over, or throwing them into a table. Even though convictons may have the CQC I listed, it will be overshadowed by the stupidness of it's "interactivity".

Keep in mind that interactivity is an option you can choose not to take advantage of. Although there are situations where taking cover behind a table would be better than not. There is a saying in the Spec ops community that goes like this. "If something can go wrong, it probably will"! In Sams situation its a plus that he can use his environment to his advantage.

Many of those "slick animations" may no longer be in the game. But from what ive seen and heard theyve been replaced by equally slick and in some ways more realistic animations. Sam may or may not be able to acquire a knife(i hope he can) but If not there are other options Im sure.
The H2H system in Convictions is more realistic than in previous titles and that excites the hell out of me. Just keep in mind that the CQC will only be overshadowed by Chair throwing mayhem if you want it to be. The choice is yours!

FARLEYFAN

06-21-2007, 08:53 PM

Well, I guess that sounds alright. But only if you have the same system of combat from previous titles, along with this, then it would work out. I thought you could only throw people or things, or just punch or whatever else. In the video I saw no crouching, wall pressing, or rolling. I saw nothing stealthy like the other games, all I saw was walking around and that's it.

Knot3D

06-21-2007, 08:58 PM

You forgot 'hiding undr the table' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MKCC14

06-21-2007, 09:07 PM

You could hide under tables in SCDA. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

@FarleyFan: Yes, we havent seen if those things will still be in. We seen 1 gameplay trailer and a couple of extra footage of the same mission so there is still a lot of stuff to be seen. There are so many questions to be asked, wait till E3 in the coming weeks. A lot should be revealed then. Maybe a new level or two will be shown.

Cheeserdude

06-21-2007, 09:19 PM

All of that stuff is in there, its just not new. The reason youve seen so much destruction and hand to hand combat is because theyve really expanded on those facets of the game. There will still be lots of stealth and espionage, and you can still silently take out the bad guys. But now that they have the ability to make fully destructible environments and more realistic A.I. they want to show it off. I think the beauty of the game is that you can play it however you want. The replay value will be insane.

I know there will be stealth, but i was worried that it wouldn't be developed enough. Like if you were in a forbidden zone, you couldn't really crouch down like in the old games. And as for the other stuff, I'm still hoping they weren't showing the final build http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. I'm seriously not convinced. They need to make it so the guards can actually fight and not just get pwned in three seconds by sam. They have to exploit fights with multiple people like they are in real life: messy and undesirable. Otherwise you could just run around pounding the freakin' **** out of everybody and never be taken down. I like the interactivity with the enviornment unlike most people here, but that would have to be to a reasonable extent.

FARLEYFAN

06-21-2007, 09:23 PM

Don't you think throwing chairs and cash registers is atleast pushing the boundaries of a stealth game's interactivity?

SPROGGY

06-21-2007, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by FARLEYFAN:
Well, I guess that sounds alright. But only if you have the same system of combat from previous titles, along with this, then it would work out. I thought you could only throw people or things, or just punch or whatever else. In the video I saw no crouching, wall pressing, or rolling. I saw nothing stealthy like the other games, all I saw was walking around and that's it.

It wont be the same system, it will be an improved system using a skill set appropriate for his situation. There will be stealth kills and what not, but there will be more direct methods too. I know for a fact you can expect striking along the lines of Thai boxing(elbows, punches and knees)and Grappling techniques like neck breaks, trapping and disarms, maybe joint locks or chokes, and a good amount of takedowns and throws.

As for the stealth stuff like crouching, rolling and back to the wall, im really not sure. Im positive you will be able to crouch in some manner. Im not so sure about the roll though and quite frankly Im not going to miss it. The roll served little to no purpose other than being unrealistic and unnecessary. The roll would do little more in real life than make more noise than is desirable in a stealth situation. Im also not sure about the back to the wall. Hopefully its there but if not I can deal with it. As mentioned though you can hide under tables and Im sure perform other things that you couldnt in the previous games.

Cheeserdude- I too hope the enemy AI puts up more of a fight in the final build. I also like the idea of making it so facing multiple attackers an undesirable scenario. Perhaps the enemies fighting ability increaes with their position. In other words a rent a cop would be easily dropped, but an FBI or 3E agent would be a good fight.

FARLEYFAN

06-21-2007, 11:37 PM

There better be the same kind of style when not around a crowd, if crowd stealth is all when near one, as the previous titles. For example if you needed to go through a vent to get to a certain objective, and you get caught, then you could say something like: I was cleaning the vents, or my dollar blew up into them and I was retrieving it. If you can't persuade them, then you simply knock them out and hide their bodies ( in the vent you were just in lol ) I think that this would be developing more on the JBA trust feature ( which sucked ) but you could have an explanation for why you were in there.

Another thing is, when you get captured, I hope to God that it isn't some stupid thing where it goes : FISHER! I don't trust you anymore!
I hope they actually aprehend you, and if you can get out of the hand cuffs before you get put in the squad car, you can make a desperate last chance of escape.

I hope they have the basic sneak elements of the other splinter cells, as well as the crowd mechanics.

Brownsnakeeyes

06-22-2007, 06:14 AM

I'm starting to get the feeling that most of the people that like the new direction didn't really care for the first three SC games.

Is it just me. I mean I've not seen any old moves from previous games. No back to the wall or crouching.

And some of the comments I've read where people could care less about them. Although there the foundation of any SC game.

Am I the only one here feeling this?

And I would like the chance to comment on these.

Originally posted by deepego3:
Sam is all alone in Conviction. He doesnt have any fancy gadgets or an Osprey available for extract. What he does have are his wits and his Combat experience, more specifically his H2H knowledge. It may not feel entirely Splinter Cell anymore because Sam ISNT a Splinter Cell.

<span class="ev_code_RED">And this is but one reason why people say that this isn't a SC game. It's more of a spin off game.</span>

Originally posted by deepego3:
They have greatly improved upon the H2H by adding throws, additional strikes, and more grappling techniques. The older games had very little H2H in comparison.

H2H combat and CQC are the same thing in principle. You must be in close quarters to fight H2H. And even though weapons can be used in CQC, H2H falls under the range of close quarters combat.Just because theyve expanded on it for Conviction doesnt mean they dont intend it to be used for the same purpose. The fact that they have expanded on it so thoroughly though is a good reason to show it off IMO.

"Throwing everything you can find" may fall under CQC, but that doesnt mean they intend for you to play through the game that way.Throwing everything you can find" may fall under CQC, but that doesnt mean they intend for you to play through the game that way. Like I said before, they are showing off the fully interactive environment. Maybe you would be happier if we just went back to almost nil CQC and very little interactivity like in SC1?

<span class="ev_code_RED">Why do you think there were " very little H2H" in previous games?</span>

"The fact that they have expanded on it so thoroughly though is a good reason to show it off IMO."
<span class="ev_code_RED">So basically you're saying that there's alot more H2H moves in this game right?</span>

""Throwing everything you can find" may fall under CQC, but that doesnt mean they intend for you to play through the game that way.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Like I've said before, UBI isn't going to waste there time with anything in the game unless they either know or think most people will use it.</span>

SPROGGY

06-22-2007, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:
I'm starting to get the feeling that most of the people that like the new direction didn't really care for the first three SC games.

Is it just me. I mean I've not seen any old moves from previous games. No back to the wall or crouching.

And some of the comments I've read where people could care less about them. Although there the foundation of any SC game.

Am I the only one here feeling this?

For the record I have both played, and still own, every game in the series.

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:<span class="ev_code_RED">And this is but one reason why people say that this isn't a SC game. It's more of a spin off game.</span>

I disagree. To me Sam Fisher is Splinter Cell, regardless of whether hes working for Echelon or not. As long as Fisher is the main character then it is still SC in my eyes.

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:<span class="ev_code_RED">Why do you think there were " very little H2H" in previous games?

I think there were fewer H2H options because it wasnt necessary to have any more. Although you should bear in mind that there were still quite a few. Sam operated with the full support of 3E and all of its resources. In Conviction Sam is alone and without support. He needs to rely on his own skill set to survive. It makes sense to see for CQC from Fisher because its part of his skill set and when the **** hits the fan he may not have too many other options in a given situation.

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:[color:RED]So basically you're saying that there's alot more H2H moves in this game right?</span>

Yes, and the reason youve seen so much of them in the trailers is because they are trying to show off the expansion.

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:<span class="ev_code_RED">Like I've said before, UBI isn't going to waste there time with anything in the game unless they either know or think most people will use it.</span>

Maybe, maybe not. Most notable next gen titles are moving towards fully interactive environments. It adds to realism and replayability. Yes Im sure quite a few people will throw something at a cop at some point during the game, I know I will. But you have the option not to go down that road if you choose. And as long as the option is there then complaints are somewhat unfounded. Ubi isnt going to make you throw the copier.

MKCC14

06-22-2007, 07:56 AM

I still own all SC games. I even re-bought SC1 because I lent it to a friend and he lost it. Also, have SCDA for X360 and Xbox.

SC is about Sam, 3E, and their enemies. If it wasnt about Sam, then we wouldnt be playing with the character Sam Fisher throughout all 4 games. We would be using multiple SC's.

BurningDeath.

06-22-2007, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by deepego3:
I disagree. To me Sam Fisher is Splinter Cell, regardless of whether hes working for Echelon or not. As long as Fisher is the main character then it is still SC in my eyes.

Originally posted by MKCC14:
SC is about Sam, 3E, and their enemies. If it wasnt about Sam, then we wouldnt be playing with the character Sam Fisher throughout all 4 games. We would be using multiple SC's.
Please, MCKK14 - read the two statements I have quoted above.
Do you recognize the difference? Deepego speaks of himself, his experiences and thoughts, whereas you make generalizations and try to make yourself look like you are the only one that knows the truth.

In fact, everyone has to decide for himself how the brand Splinter Cell is defined. It can either be a series that follows the adventures of Sam Fisher as a character, regardless of changes in gameplay, setting or graphics - if you look at it that way, of course, the change to what Ubisoft calls "active stealth" doesn't bother you too much.
Or you can see Splinter Cell as a stealth-series, where a special agent with high-tech gadgets and weapons, working for the NSA, is completing missions unseen in light & shadow stealth, wether Sam Fisher is the protagonist or not.

You can have your opinion, but please be open-minded enough to let other people also have one.

Cheeserdude

06-22-2007, 07:28 PM

to the stupid AND unstupid people here:

DON'T START A DISS FIGHT.

try not to insult each other so much. don't quote people to just slam them, actually try and say somthing productive. Yo-K?

anyways...

Farleyfan: I like your idea of having a last-ditch escape moment if you fail the mission. I think they had that for Xbox in DA, didn't they? It really gives you an idea of what happens if you screw up on a mission.

DeepEgo: An idea for a characteristic system has been floating here for a while now. Unfortunately, the brains at Ubi don't look here and won't consider it. The "bad guys" should have different levels of courage, strength, and tactile. Low courage enemies will freak and run after you take a few of them, high courage will fight till they die or are incapacitated. low strength enemies are taken care of more easily and can't hurt you as much with their own hands, while high strength ones would be hard to take care of and could knock you on your *** if you're not careful. Low tactile enemies wouldn't try to flank or use any other tactics, while high tactile ones would flank and order their men to attack form certain angles. In hand-to-hand combat, they could use the enviornment as well. There's my 2 cents. Anyone?

MKCC14

06-22-2007, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by BurningDeath.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by deepego3:
I disagree. To me Sam Fisher is Splinter Cell, regardless of whether hes working for Echelon or not. As long as Fisher is the main character then it is still SC in my eyes.

Originally posted by MKCC14:
SC is about Sam, 3E, and their enemies. If it wasnt about Sam, then we wouldnt be playing with the character Sam Fisher throughout all 4 games. We would be using multiple SC's.
Please, MCKK14 - read the two statements I have quoted above.
Do you recognize the difference? Deepego speaks of himself, his experiences and thoughts, whereas you make generalizations and try to make yourself look like you are the only one that knows the truth.

In fact, everyone has to decide for himself how the brand Splinter Cell is defined. It can either be a series that follows the adventures of Sam Fisher as a character, regardless of changes in gameplay, setting or graphics - if you look at it that way, of course, the change to what Ubisoft calls "active stealth" doesn't bother you too much.
Or you can see Splinter Cell as a stealth-series, where a special agent with high-tech gadgets and weapons, working for the NSA, is completing missions unseen in light & shadow stealth, wether Sam Fisher is the protagonist or not.

You can have your opinion, but please be open-minded enough to let other people also have one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I already know all about that...geez I was speaking for myself but I just didnt state it this time. Trust me, I think i am one of the most open-minded people here. No, you wont see me going around telling everyone they are wrong and Im right...Im not that stupid. Just like I could care less if some of you here disagree with the direction the series has taken. I know i think it looks good from my point of view, and thats what matters...to me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FARLEYFAN

06-22-2007, 08:32 PM

Sam should just become a hobo lol

Knot3D

06-22-2007, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:
<span class="ev_code_RED">And this is but one reason why people say that this isn't a SC game. It's more of a spin off game.</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Why do you think there were " very little H2H" in previous games?</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">So basically you're saying that there's alot more H2H moves in this game right?</span>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Like I've said before, UBI isn't going to waste there time with anything in the game unless they either know or think most people will use it.</span>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Word. Sam Fisher was the face of SC, indeed....but the "Brains & Body" are the gameplay foundations from SC1 to SC3. When that 'face' becomes the main decisive element
of the game, in both plot & gameplay development, then the foundation is swept away. The face is just a front : pretty dam shallow. There is no easier excuse than a plot device.

Script writing can change on the fly ; game engines are products of massive developments, which .. after a certain point ; they are 'written in stone'.

SC1 was pretty hardcore as it only had one single h2h move ; the knock to the head with the elbow. I Think SC CT & SC DA Xbox1 have the BEST balance.

These game engine techniques like procedural blending animation, physics & crowd AI, do cost Ubi a hefty investment, so they seek to earn back those cost spreading it out over alot of
their blockbuster franchises. In effect it does make this Conviction game a PURE spin off game. It might be good as a spin off game... but when people start talking stuff like " hiding in the shadows is stupid, unrealistic etc " then they have been hating SC all along. Yeah, they won't admit it though.

I can go on about how 'stupid & unrealistic' Hitman's disguises are or how Metal Gear's stay-out-of-line-of-sight gameplay is really ******ed. All shallow & dogmatic arguments to say a game sucks. Just filler reasons for the craving of ACTION gameplay & change of game atmosphere.

I guess Ubi has grown so big a publisher, they're just following the trends which, according to their marketeers, will sell the best.

FARLEYFAN

06-22-2007, 11:06 PM

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif I really do hope they still have shadow stealth as well as crowd stealth when you have to use it.

aniket_nayak

06-30-2007, 12:04 PM

Of course the game isn't going to be 100% crowd stealth. I mean, if Sam has to complete some primary objectives, I am pretty sure it wont be in some are with a lot of crowd, rather in some dark small area. I guess this crowd stealth is just to get through large open areas.

I am sure we will have our high-tech gadgets as well as its mentioned in the site. And there is nothing wrong in having day-light missions. Real-life isn't all about moving from shadows to shadows. Sometimes things need to be done during daytime as well.

One thing I am sure of is that Splinter Cell will stay true its genre and deliver stealth action like it has always done.

Please be free to changes. Its the changes and innovations that has lead to improvements. People who oppose changes are generally very small-minded.

Jackf314

07-02-2007, 06:00 PM

I'm still going to get SCC to give it a shot and I can even suuport a cutback in cool NSA gadgets in accordance to the storyline, as a matter of fact, I kind of like the idea of Fisher needing to rely on his skills instead of technology, but going into a fist fight with multiple police officers in broad daylight is going too far for my taste. Traditional stealth tactics in a mix of night/day with limited technical assistance (if any) sounds like an interesting challenge but this game sounds like it is walking a dangerous line of becoming a run of the mill, dime a dozen, shoot everything in sight game. That is something that no true SC fan really wants.

Brownsnakeeyes

07-24-2007, 07:36 PM

Like I've said before, UBI's not going to go through the trouble of putting in a deep fighting system if they think no one will use it. It will be intended to be used.

I also believe that along with the social stealth system this will be the core gameplay. The CQC and social stealth will be the core gameplay. Write it in stone.

People also don't think that maybe people want the L&S stealth gameplay. Sure this new game might have stealth elements but it won't have the elements that we have grown to enjoy.

Changing the types of stealth is the problem.

As for Sam being a SC in Conviction. This is false. I don't really think that I need to remind people just what a SC is. Do I?

To me it wouldn't matter if they killed Sam off or not. As long as the gameplay from older games is intact then it'll be a SC game to me.

All UBI is doing now is trying to put out a good story to the masses. And obviously they needed to remake the gameplay to match the story. The story won't be made to match the gameplay.

Georg_Maximus

07-24-2007, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by Brownsnakeeyes:
I also believe that along with the social stealth system this will be the core gameplay. The CQC and social stealth will be the core gameplay. Write it in stone.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif It's hard to believe they've worked to develop a fighting system if it's not intended to be considerably used. They did have close combat situations in previous games as well, but but limited only to prescripted moves or Sam not moving at gun point. If it wasn't meant to have a big role in SCC, they could just have sticked with the same combat principles as in traditional SC.

AgentXVII

07-27-2007, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by Knot3D:hiding in the shadows is stupid, unrealistic etc

I feel I need to clarify this point, since I think it was me who made it. I'm not trying to start a fight here, or trolling.

I have always loved the SC games. Yes, L&S was the core mechanic of the first three games, and yes I did like it. But, be honest, you never had that moment during a level where you looked at the setup and thought "Why is this office building so poorly lit? Why can't that guard see me when I'm just standing in a shadow?" That is what I meant by unrealistic. Its just like in every action movie where the hero fires off a gun at a car and it explodes. There's always that nagging thought that says "but that doesn't happen. Shooting a petrol-tank won't make it explode." So, unrealistic, but not stupid. I love the SC series, but as things have progressed I'm yearning for more realistic stealth, I just hope SC:C can deliver on that promise.

That said, I can totally appreciate where you anti-ConViction guys are coming from on this. Ending L&S stealth could be a horrible mistake, it could ruin SC potentially.