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View Full Version : The F-22 No More?



trk29
02-19-2009, 05:43 AM
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/...1/congress-f22-fail/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/21/congress-f22-fail/)

Mig-29
02-19-2009, 06:19 AM
haha

no more f-22

dragan56
02-19-2009, 06:48 AM
its not that great of a plane anyway
1 to expensive
2 a 4.5 gen aircraft can take it down (in theary)
3 it looks ugly (my opinion)

JSF-89
02-19-2009, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by dragan56:
its not that great of a plane anyway
1 to expensive
2 a 4.5 gen aircraft can take it down (in theary)
3 it looks ugly (my opinion)


Are yall stupid?
That article just said we put more money into building MORE F-22's, I know some of you have a lack of reading comprehension, but really..
It's funny how little faith you have in your own Air Force, that you get all wide-eyed at the prospect of the F-22 being done away with.
Are you that insecure about your country's own Air Force?
Are you that scared?

I assure you the F-22 is not going anywhere.


Oh and BTW..The F-22 is a beautiful aircraft..
Ugly would your Typhoons and Rafales, THOSE are ugly.
=)

dragan56
02-19-2009, 07:08 AM
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool

SilentAlfa
02-19-2009, 07:08 AM
Barack Hussien is trying desperatley to get rid of America's top weapons

Considering that we already have the most powerful military and airforce in the world which could easily defeat any threat or combination of threats, and with superior training our pilots could win even if the enemy had superior planes, do we really need the F-22? We've already got a plane for every job it fulfills, the F-22 just does it more expensively.

Funny that you talk about his buddies in the middle east. You do know that Barack is a Jewish name, right? So you must of course be referring to his Israeli friends?

Mach8
02-19-2009, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by dragan56:
its not that great of a plane anyway
1 to expensive
2 a 4.5 gen aircraft can take it down *(in theary)
3 it looks ugly (my opinion)

1. the Best Tech always is.
2. *(in theory) thoughts don't shoot down planes
3. that plane is made of death and sexy(my opinion). its appearance was due to function not fashion

edited for spelling

JSF-89
02-19-2009, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by SilentAlfa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Barack Hussien is trying desperatley to get rid of America's top weapons

Considering that we already have the most powerful military and airforce in the world which could easily defeat any threat or combination of threats, and with superior training our pilots could win even if the enemy had superior planes, do we really need the F-22? We've already got a plane for every job it fulfills, the F-22 just does it more expensively.

Funny that you talk about his buddies in the middle east. You do know that Barack is a Jewish name, right? So you must of course be referring to his Israeli friends? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Another crazy liberal!
Oh and know this, we do not have another plane that fills every job the F-22 does, the only plane that comes remotely close to the F-22, id the F-35, which is more of a ground attack fighter than an air superiority fighter like the Raptor.
In a time where war is won in the skies, id rather have the best on our side.

JSF-89
02-19-2009, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by dragan56:
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool

I too am not going to get in a debate with you.
Were cool my friend
See you in the skies

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

DAFOC
02-19-2009, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by dragan56:
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool


Wait so you dont lik the F-22 because its to good?
WTF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Mach8
02-19-2009, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by SilentAlfa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Barack Hussien is trying desperatley to get rid of America's top weapons

Considering that we already have the most powerful military and airforce in the world which could easily defeat any threat or combination of threats, and with superior training our pilots could win even if the enemy had superior planes, do we really need the F-22? We've already got a plane for every job it fulfills, the F-22 just does it more expensively.

Funny that you talk about his buddies in the middle east. You do know that Barack is a Jewish name, right? So you must of course be referring to his Israeli friends? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

china is catching up due to its shear size(the words Largest). USAF's planes are aging fast and already past replacement date. our air force fighters will be (all but)useless in 10 years. we need to start replacing them now before there is an extreme deficit in air superiority, (and there kinda is now)

dragan56
02-19-2009, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by DAFOC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dragan56:
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool


Wait so you dont lik the F-22 because its to good?
WTF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no i am saying that the only thing the 22 can do better then the SU-37 perfomance wise ie. manuevers speed and such is its surface celing of 65k fr compared to the 37s 60k ft every thing else the 37 beats 22 and i dont like it for 2 reasons its wayy too expensive and the fact that its said its the best plane in the world when a 4.5 gen SU-37 can out manuever it and out pase it by .25 mach thats a lot when you look at it

F-22 stats
Speed 2.25 mach
S-celing 65,000ft
2D thrust vectoring

SU-37 stats
Speed 2.5 mach
S-ciling 60,000ft
3D thrust vectoring

well got to go to college and learn talk to you guys later.

Mig-29
02-19-2009, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by SilentAlfa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Barack Hussien is trying desperatley to get rid of America's top weapons

Considering that we already have the most powerful military and airforce in the world which could easily defeat any threat or combination of threats, and with superior training our pilots could win even if the enemy had superior planes, do we really need the F-22? We've already got a plane for every job it fulfills, the F-22 just does it more expensively.

Funny that you talk about his buddies in the middle east. You do know that Barack is a Jewish name, right? So you must of course be referring to his Israeli friends? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol u think he's Jewish? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

dragan56
02-19-2009, 07:44 AM
though barack is a jewish name he has muslim family that does not make him evil though

IamKFAM
02-19-2009, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by dragan56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DAFOC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dragan56:
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool


Wait so you dont lik the F-22 because its to good?
WTF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no i am saying that the only thing the 22 can do better then the SU-37 perfomance wise ie. manuevers speed and such is its surface celing of 65k fr compared to the 37s 60k ft every thing else the 37 beats 22 and i dont like it for 2 reasons its wayy too expensive and the fact that its said its the best plane in the world when a 4.5 gen SU-37 can out manuever it and out pase it by .25 mach thats a lot when you look at it

F-22 stats
Speed 2.25 mach
S-celing 65,000ft
2D thrust vectoring

SU-37 stats
Speed 2.5 mach
S-ciling 60,000ft
3D thrust vectoring

well got to go to college and learn talk to you guys later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude... all politics aside, you are forgetting two really big things about the F-22... low observables and supercruise.

the 37 is faster at top speed but will run out of gas much much faster. But hey all those fancy vectoring manuvers may help find the pilot a nice place to bail out.

eaglex72
02-19-2009, 08:00 AM
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Mig-29
02-19-2009, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

The Israel gov't isn't sure due to fighter's extreme cost.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...JPArticle%2FShowFull (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304711616&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

eaglex72
02-19-2009, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Mig-29:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

The Israel gov't isn't sure due to fighter's extreme cost.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...JPArticle%2FShowFull (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304711616&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that.

So much for:

"Lethal Survivable Supportable Affordable"

That sucks. They sure could use them, with their ability to vertically take off and land, and hover.

williejets
02-19-2009, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by IamKFAM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dragan56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DAFOC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dragan56:
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool


Wait so you dont lik the F-22 because its to good?
WTF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no i am saying that the only thing the 22 can do better then the SU-37 perfomance wise ie. manuevers speed and such is its surface celing of 65k fr compared to the 37s 60k ft every thing else the 37 beats 22 and i dont like it for 2 reasons its wayy too expensive and the fact that its said its the best plane in the world when a 4.5 gen SU-37 can out manuever it and out pase it by .25 mach thats a lot when you look at it

F-22 stats
Speed 2.25 mach
S-celing 65,000ft
2D thrust vectoring

SU-37 stats
Speed 2.5 mach
S-ciling 60,000ft
3D thrust vectoring

well got to go to college and learn talk to you guys later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude... all politics aside, you are forgetting two really big things about the F-22... low observables and supercruise.

the 37 is faster at top speed but will run out of gas much much faster. But hey all those fancy vectoring manuvers may help find the pilot a nice place to bail out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

isn't the f22 top speed still classified, aswell as it's ceiling. besides i have never seen a su-37 fly. but if it can move more than the f22 thats something. if you have never seen a f22 fly and perform moves than you may be missing out on some facts.

armyofone19
02-19-2009, 11:29 AM
How about we dont compare the F-22 to the SU-37?

Why? Cause the SU-37 was cancelled and the SU-30MKI and SU-35 are better than the SU-37.

Sgt.Smoke420
02-19-2009, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Naw man, your really backwards on this one. The US trains and sells Isreal all their Air Force soldiers and supplies. That is make such an effort to protect and help them whenever we can. They do have however, the #2 AF in the world, only behind us. Its due to us giving and training them. They are a US like AF, but not as lethal or quick as we are.

eaglex72
02-19-2009, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Sgt.Smoke420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Naw man, your really backwards on this one. The US trains and sells Isreal all their Air Force soldiers and supplies. That is make such an effort to protect and help them whenever we can. They do have however, the #2 AF in the world, only behind us. Its due to us giving and training them. They are a US like AF, but not as lethal or quick as we are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very wrong actually.

First:

Yes, as i mentioned, the US sells planes to the Israeli AF. HOWEVER, the Israeli AF (IAF) modifies the jets THEMSELVES, in THEIR FACTORIES, using THEIR technology. And some of it is more advanced.

Second:

The selection process for IAF pilots can be traced to Ezer Weizman, widely considered the architect of the modern Israeli Air Force, and his aim of recruiting only "the best for pilots." His reasoning was that the skill and bravery of the ground forces would be for naught if they could be attacked at will from the air. As a result, only those thought to possess the innate ability to succeed as Israeli pilots are even invited to begin the training process, and only the most qualified succeed in completing what is seen by many as the world's most demanding military selection course.

Consequently, potential Israeli pilots are identified prior to reporting for national service at age 18, based on factors such as high grades in school and top scores on standardized tests, excellent physical condition and high technical aptitude. Those who meet these and other criteria are invited to participate in a six-day gibush (cohesion), a selection phase involving physical, mental, and sociometric challenges. Recruits are screened not only for their ability to perform the tasks assigned, but for their attitude in performing them —such as how they take hardships and unexpected difficulties, how well they work in groups and how they approach problem solving and disaster management situations. As many as 90 percent of those who commence the gibush will be dropped from further consideration at its conclusion. (The physical demands of the gibush have been lessened recently, following the death of a participant in 2006.)

Those who pass the gibush embark on a three-year journey to earn their wings, which includes extensive flight training, infantry training, an officer's course, and studies towards an academic degree (a B.A. or B.Sc.). The prospective pilots are evaluated constantly, and the vast majority of those who begin flight training do not make it through the full program. Those expelled from the course will either remain in the air force in a non-flying capacity, or transfer to an army unit. (This depends to a large degree on the stage at which they leave the course.)

While in flying school, future pilots are sorted and assigned to train on different types of aircraft. Few become fighter pilots (considered by many to be the most desirable assignment), while the remainder learn to fly helicopters, transport aircraft, or train as navigators.

Hate to break it to you, Israel trains their OWN pilots.

And ALL citizens are required to serve in the military at some level.


Third:

The Israeli Air Force is considered the strongest air force in the Middle East, and one of the best and most sophisticated in the world. Over the past few decades Israel has purchased sophisticated American fighters and installed on them its locally developed and produced avionics and weapons. Perhaps the greatest strength of the IAF is the skill of its pilots. The IAF relies on its Air Intelligence Directorate for intelligence, including analysis of aerial photography. Many of the IAF's electronics and weapons systems are developed and built in Israel by Israel Military Industries, Israel Aerospace Industries, Elbit and others.

The IAF holds world records respective to the amounts of enemy warplanes shoot-downs, air combat performance, special operations, and air to ground operations from the jet era onward.

Some of the records and highlight moments are as follows:

Six Day War
June 5, 1967 – the Six Day War: The destruction of the entire Egyptian air-force within three hours. By the end of the day the Syrian and Jordanian air forces were wiped out as well. The IAF shoot-down total at the end of the war was a claimed record of 451 enemy aircraft downed versus nineteen of its own. See: Operation Focus.

War of Attrition
March, 1969 until August, 1970 – the War of Attrition: 111 enemy warplanes were shot-down in dogfights by IAF pilots while only four IAF warplanes were shot down in dogfights by enemy pilots (according to Israeli sources). Also, during the Cold War the Soviet Union held close relationships with the Arab nations. On July 30, 1970 the tension peaked: An IAF ambush resulted in a large scale air brawl between IAF planes and MiGs flown by Soviet pilots — five MiGs were shot down, while the IAF suffered no losses.

Yom Kippur War
October 9, 1973 – the Yom Kippur War: The destruction of the Syrian General Staff in Damascus: On October 9, 1973, two F-4 Phantom quartets attacked and destroyed the Syrian General Staff Headquarters in the heart of Damascus. The Syrian Air Force Headquarters was damaged as well.

Also, during the Yom Kippur War, the IAF shot down 277 enemy warplanes accounting for over a third of the IAF's total kills since 1948. However in this war over 50 planes were lost due to the introduction of new Soviet air defence equipment and doctrine: medium range SA-6 mobile SAM batteries and point defence provided by short range Shilka radar guided SPAAG and SA-7 Strela MANPADS (employed by Egyptian infantry), advancing with the mechanized forces and covered by older but longer range and still very dangerous SA-2 and SA-3 anti aircraft missile batteries. Israeli Air Force was the first Air Force that fought against the new Soviet doctrine of advancing mechanized forces covered by overlapping different surface based anti aircraft systems.

1982 Lebanon War
June 8, 1982 – 1982 Lebanon War: The destruction of the entire Soviet supplied Syrian air-defence system in Lebanon within a few hours without a single warplane lost; Syria with the help of the Soviet Union built up an overlapping network of surface-to-air missiles. It achieved in dogfights a total of 80 Syrian planes shoot-downs, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.

2006 Lebanon War
The IAF played a critical role in the 2006 Lebanon War by leading the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah. These strikes – mainly, though not exclusively, in southern Lebanon – were aimed at stopping rocket launches by Hezbollah's militia targeting Israeli towns. The IAF flew more than 12,000 combat missions during this war. The most notable mission, taking place during the second day of the war, resulted in the IAF destroying 59 Iranian-supplied medium- and long-range missile launchers in just 34 minutes. Widespread condemnation followed the July 30 IAF airstrike on a building suspected to be a militant hideout near the village of Qana, in which 28 civilians were killed. Hezbollah shot down an IAF CH-53 Yas'ur helicopter on the last day of the war, killing four male and one female aircrew members. Earlier, an IAF F-16I had crashed during take-off. Israeli aircraft also shot down three armed Iranian aerial drones during the conflict.

The only documented successful emergency landing of an F-15 with one wing, after losing its starboard wing in an airborne collision with an A-4 Skyhawk during training. The Skyhawk exploded and its pilot ejected. McDonnell-Douglas, manufacturer of the F-15, refused to believe it was possible until photos of the incident were released. The F-15 was subsequently restored to flight status.

"Ace" pilots: thirty-nine IAF pilots have shot down at least five jet planes; ten of those shot down at least eight jet planes.

"Ace of Aces": Colonel Giora Epstein shot down seventeen jet planes, holding the world record for jet aircraft shot down, and the most aircraft of any type shot down since the Korean War.

Obtaining the first shoot-downs for the F-15 and the F-16 fighter jets.

Bullet.Tin
02-19-2009, 12:58 PM
The F-22 is way too expensive the cost of one F-22 could buy four F-15 but the F-22 is very good.

Scorch621
02-19-2009, 12:59 PM
i barely know anything about planes i prefer to fight on the ground,except in RA3 then i use air more but otherwise i prefer the but i know a little about them,bring on the F-35!

Sgt.Smoke420
02-19-2009, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by eaglex72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sgt.Smoke420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Naw man, your really backwards on this one. The US trains and sells Isreal all their Air Force soldiers and supplies. That is make such an effort to protect and help them whenever we can. They do have however, the #2 AF in the world, only behind us. Its due to us giving and training them. They are a US like AF, but not as lethal or quick as we are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very wrong actually.

First:

Yes, as i mentioned, the US sells planes to the Israeli AF. HOWEVER, the Israeli AF (IAF) modifies the jets THEMSELVES, in THEIR FACTORIES, using THEIR technology. And some of it is more advanced.

Second:

The selection process for IAF pilots can be traced to Ezer Weizman, widely considered the architect of the modern Israeli Air Force, and his aim of recruiting only "the best for pilots." His reasoning was that the skill and bravery of the ground forces would be for naught if they could be attacked at will from the air. As a result, only those thought to possess the innate ability to succeed as Israeli pilots are even invited to begin the training process, and only the most qualified succeed in completing what is seen by many as the world's most demanding military selection course.

Consequently, potential Israeli pilots are identified prior to reporting for national service at age 18, based on factors such as high grades in school and top scores on standardized tests, excellent physical condition and high technical aptitude. Those who meet these and other criteria are invited to participate in a six-day gibush (cohesion), a selection phase involving physical, mental, and sociometric challenges. Recruits are screened not only for their ability to perform the tasks assigned, but for their attitude in performing them —such as how they take hardships and unexpected difficulties, how well they work in groups and how they approach problem solving and disaster management situations. As many as 90 percent of those who commence the gibush will be dropped from further consideration at its conclusion. (The physical demands of the gibush have been lessened recently, following the death of a participant in 2006.)

Those who pass the gibush embark on a three-year journey to earn their wings, which includes extensive flight training, infantry training, an officer's course, and studies towards an academic degree (a B.A. or B.Sc.). The prospective pilots are evaluated constantly, and the vast majority of those who begin flight training do not make it through the full program. Those expelled from the course will either remain in the air force in a non-flying capacity, or transfer to an army unit. (This depends to a large degree on the stage at which they leave the course.)

While in flying school, future pilots are sorted and assigned to train on different types of aircraft. Few become fighter pilots (considered by many to be the most desirable assignment), while the remainder learn to fly helicopters, transport aircraft, or train as navigators.

Hate to break it to you, Israel trains their OWN pilots.

And ALL citizens are required to serve in the military at some level.


Third:

The Israeli Air Force is considered the strongest air force in the Middle East, and one of the best and most sophisticated in the world. Over the past few decades Israel has purchased sophisticated American fighters and installed on them its locally developed and produced avionics and weapons. Perhaps the greatest strength of the IAF is the skill of its pilots. The IAF relies on its Air Intelligence Directorate for intelligence, including analysis of aerial photography. Many of the IAF's electronics and weapons systems are developed and built in Israel by Israel Military Industries, Israel Aerospace Industries, Elbit and others.

The IAF holds world records respective to the amounts of enemy warplanes shoot-downs, air combat performance, special operations, and air to ground operations from the jet era onward.

Some of the records and highlight moments are as follows:

Six Day War
June 5, 1967 – the Six Day War: The destruction of the entire Egyptian air-force within three hours. By the end of the day the Syrian and Jordanian air forces were wiped out as well. The IAF shoot-down total at the end of the war was a claimed record of 451 enemy aircraft downed versus nineteen of its own. See: Operation Focus.

War of Attrition
March, 1969 until August, 1970 – the War of Attrition: 111 enemy warplanes were shot-down in dogfights by IAF pilots while only four IAF warplanes were shot down in dogfights by enemy pilots (according to Israeli sources). Also, during the Cold War the Soviet Union held close relationships with the Arab nations. On July 30, 1970 the tension peaked: An IAF ambush resulted in a large scale air brawl between IAF planes and MiGs flown by Soviet pilots — five MiGs were shot down, while the IAF suffered no losses.

Yom Kippur War
October 9, 1973 – the Yom Kippur War: The destruction of the Syrian General Staff in Damascus: On October 9, 1973, two F-4 Phantom quartets attacked and destroyed the Syrian General Staff Headquarters in the heart of Damascus. The Syrian Air Force Headquarters was damaged as well.

Also, during the Yom Kippur War, the IAF shot down 277 enemy warplanes accounting for over a third of the IAF's total kills since 1948. However in this war over 50 planes were lost due to the introduction of new Soviet air defence equipment and doctrine: medium range SA-6 mobile SAM batteries and point defence provided by short range Shilka radar guided SPAAG and SA-7 Strela MANPADS (employed by Egyptian infantry), advancing with the mechanized forces and covered by older but longer range and still very dangerous SA-2 and SA-3 anti aircraft missile batteries. Israeli Air Force was the first Air Force that fought against the new Soviet doctrine of advancing mechanized forces covered by overlapping different surface based anti aircraft systems.

1982 Lebanon War
June 8, 1982 – 1982 Lebanon War: The destruction of the entire Soviet supplied Syrian air-defence system in Lebanon within a few hours without a single warplane lost; Syria with the help of the Soviet Union built up an overlapping network of surface-to-air missiles. It achieved in dogfights a total of 80 Syrian planes shoot-downs, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.

2006 Lebanon War
The IAF played a critical role in the 2006 Lebanon War by leading the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah. These strikes – mainly, though not exclusively, in southern Lebanon – were aimed at stopping rocket launches by Hezbollah's militia targeting Israeli towns. The IAF flew more than 12,000 combat missions during this war. The most notable mission, taking place during the second day of the war, resulted in the IAF destroying 59 Iranian-supplied medium- and long-range missile launchers in just 34 minutes. Widespread condemnation followed the July 30 IAF airstrike on a building suspected to be a militant hideout near the village of Qana, in which 28 civilians were killed. Hezbollah shot down an IAF CH-53 Yas'ur helicopter on the last day of the war, killing four male and one female aircrew members. Earlier, an IAF F-16I had crashed during take-off. Israeli aircraft also shot down three armed Iranian aerial drones during the conflict.

The only documented successful emergency landing of an F-15 with one wing, after losing its starboard wing in an airborne collision with an A-4 Skyhawk during training. The Skyhawk exploded and its pilot ejected. McDonnell-Douglas, manufacturer of the F-15, refused to believe it was possible until photos of the incident were released. The F-15 was subsequently restored to flight status.

"Ace" pilots: thirty-nine IAF pilots have shot down at least five jet planes; ten of those shot down at least eight jet planes.

"Ace of Aces": Colonel Giora Epstein shot down seventeen jet planes, holding the world record for jet aircraft shot down, and the most aircraft of any type shot down since the Korean War.

Obtaining the first shoot-downs for the F-15 and the F-16 fighter jets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant argue with fact, though I dont believe they are higher on the chain then the US...

LTPugh
02-19-2009, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by eaglex72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sgt.Smoke420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Naw man, your really backwards on this one. The US trains and sells Isreal all their Air Force soldiers and supplies. That is make such an effort to protect and help them whenever we can. They do have however, the #2 AF in the world, only behind us. Its due to us giving and training them. They are a US like AF, but not as lethal or quick as we are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very wrong actually.

First:

Yes, as i mentioned, the US sells planes to the Israeli AF. HOWEVER, the Israeli AF (IAF) modifies the jets THEMSELVES, in THEIR FACTORIES, using THEIR technology. And some of it is more advanced.

Second:

The selection process for IAF pilots can be traced to Ezer Weizman, widely considered the architect of the modern Israeli Air Force, and his aim of recruiting only "the best for pilots." His reasoning was that the skill and bravery of the ground forces would be for naught if they could be attacked at will from the air. As a result, only those thought to possess the innate ability to succeed as Israeli pilots are even invited to begin the training process, and only the most qualified succeed in completing what is seen by many as the world's most demanding military selection course.

Consequently, potential Israeli pilots are identified prior to reporting for national service at age 18, based on factors such as high grades in school and top scores on standardized tests, excellent physical condition and high technical aptitude. Those who meet these and other criteria are invited to participate in a six-day gibush (cohesion), a selection phase involving physical, mental, and sociometric challenges. Recruits are screened not only for their ability to perform the tasks assigned, but for their attitude in performing them —such as how they take hardships and unexpected difficulties, how well they work in groups and how they approach problem solving and disaster management situations. As many as 90 percent of those who commence the gibush will be dropped from further consideration at its conclusion. (The physical demands of the gibush have been lessened recently, following the death of a participant in 2006.)

Those who pass the gibush embark on a three-year journey to earn their wings, which includes extensive flight training, infantry training, an officer's course, and studies towards an academic degree (a B.A. or B.Sc.). The prospective pilots are evaluated constantly, and the vast majority of those who begin flight training do not make it through the full program. Those expelled from the course will either remain in the air force in a non-flying capacity, or transfer to an army unit. (This depends to a large degree on the stage at which they leave the course.)

While in flying school, future pilots are sorted and assigned to train on different types of aircraft. Few become fighter pilots (considered by many to be the most desirable assignment), while the remainder learn to fly helicopters, transport aircraft, or train as navigators.

Hate to break it to you, Israel trains their OWN pilots.

And ALL citizens are required to serve in the military at some level.


Third:

The Israeli Air Force is considered the strongest air force in the Middle East, and one of the best and most sophisticated in the world. Over the past few decades Israel has purchased sophisticated American fighters and installed on them its locally developed and produced avionics and weapons. Perhaps the greatest strength of the IAF is the skill of its pilots. The IAF relies on its Air Intelligence Directorate for intelligence, including analysis of aerial photography. Many of the IAF's electronics and weapons systems are developed and built in Israel by Israel Military Industries, Israel Aerospace Industries, Elbit and others.

The IAF holds world records respective to the amounts of enemy warplanes shoot-downs, air combat performance, special operations, and air to ground operations from the jet era onward.

Some of the records and highlight moments are as follows:

Six Day War
June 5, 1967 – the Six Day War: The destruction of the entire Egyptian air-force within three hours. By the end of the day the Syrian and Jordanian air forces were wiped out as well. The IAF shoot-down total at the end of the war was a claimed record of 451 enemy aircraft downed versus nineteen of its own. See: Operation Focus.

War of Attrition
March, 1969 until August, 1970 – the War of Attrition: 111 enemy warplanes were shot-down in dogfights by IAF pilots while only four IAF warplanes were shot down in dogfights by enemy pilots (according to Israeli sources). Also, during the Cold War the Soviet Union held close relationships with the Arab nations. On July 30, 1970 the tension peaked: An IAF ambush resulted in a large scale air brawl between IAF planes and MiGs flown by Soviet pilots — five MiGs were shot down, while the IAF suffered no losses.

Yom Kippur War
October 9, 1973 – the Yom Kippur War: The destruction of the Syrian General Staff in Damascus: On October 9, 1973, two F-4 Phantom quartets attacked and destroyed the Syrian General Staff Headquarters in the heart of Damascus. The Syrian Air Force Headquarters was damaged as well.

Also, during the Yom Kippur War, the IAF shot down 277 enemy warplanes accounting for over a third of the IAF's total kills since 1948. However in this war over 50 planes were lost due to the introduction of new Soviet air defence equipment and doctrine: medium range SA-6 mobile SAM batteries and point defence provided by short range Shilka radar guided SPAAG and SA-7 Strela MANPADS (employed by Egyptian infantry), advancing with the mechanized forces and covered by older but longer range and still very dangerous SA-2 and SA-3 anti aircraft missile batteries. Israeli Air Force was the first Air Force that fought against the new Soviet doctrine of advancing mechanized forces covered by overlapping different surface based anti aircraft systems.

1982 Lebanon War
June 8, 1982 – 1982 Lebanon War: The destruction of the entire Soviet supplied Syrian air-defence system in Lebanon within a few hours without a single warplane lost; Syria with the help of the Soviet Union built up an overlapping network of surface-to-air missiles. It achieved in dogfights a total of 80 Syrian planes shoot-downs, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.

2006 Lebanon War
The IAF played a critical role in the 2006 Lebanon War by leading the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah. These strikes – mainly, though not exclusively, in southern Lebanon – were aimed at stopping rocket launches by Hezbollah's militia targeting Israeli towns. The IAF flew more than 12,000 combat missions during this war. The most notable mission, taking place during the second day of the war, resulted in the IAF destroying 59 Iranian-supplied medium- and long-range missile launchers in just 34 minutes. Widespread condemnation followed the July 30 IAF airstrike on a building suspected to be a militant hideout near the village of Qana, in which 28 civilians were killed. Hezbollah shot down an IAF CH-53 Yas'ur helicopter on the last day of the war, killing four male and one female aircrew members. Earlier, an IAF F-16I had crashed during take-off. Israeli aircraft also shot down three armed Iranian aerial drones during the conflict.

The only documented successful emergency landing of an F-15 with one wing, after losing its starboard wing in an airborne collision with an A-4 Skyhawk during training. The Skyhawk exploded and its pilot ejected. McDonnell-Douglas, manufacturer of the F-15, refused to believe it was possible until photos of the incident were released. The F-15 was subsequently restored to flight status.

"Ace" pilots: thirty-nine IAF pilots have shot down at least five jet planes; ten of those shot down at least eight jet planes.

"Ace of Aces": Colonel Giora Epstein shot down seventeen jet planes, holding the world record for jet aircraft shot down, and the most aircraft of any type shot down since the Korean War.

Obtaining the first shoot-downs for the F-15 and the F-16 fighter jets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I'm not saying your wrong on this but I think I've got a couple points.

One is that the Israeli AF does not invite potential pilots they are selected and made to take those courses. (At least to my knowledge)

The second is that while they did get all those air to air kills they were against arguably inferior pilots and planes.

And I think their would be more USAF aces if they actually faced more people who had planes they could shoot at in the first place.

The Isrelis do send pilots over for training but I think thats more to see how the US does things and maybe to see our new toys.

So while I'm not trying to contradict you I think a couple of the points are overemphasized wrong or I read it different from what you meant.

s1zzl3
02-19-2009, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by trk29:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/...1/congress-f22-fail/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/21/congress-f22-fail/)

it'd be impossible to get rid of the F-22 now - there's already like 120 in service and more are being built every month - the only time the F-22 will end is AFTER it reaches the 183 minimum

williejets
02-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by armyofone19:
How about we dont compare the F-22 to the SU-37?

Why? Cause the SU-37 was cancelled and the SU-30MKI and SU-35 are better than the SU-37.
i was not comparing the two. i was saying you can't underestimate a plane we know little about.

ask any pilot that has moved from one fighter to the f22 they will say that with the f22 they feel they can go to combat fly, fight, win and return home safely. their survival rate from sorties in the f22 have been 90% higher.

guitarplaya350
02-19-2009, 02:53 PM
Just so all you guys know, the F-22 is stealth unlike the Su-37. A jet isn't stealth unless it is made of heat dispersing panels and has internal weapons bays, the F-22 has both, the Su-37 has just the first. Also, the F-22 is built in a design that is stealth, that is why it has many flat or angled surfaces. The Su-37 is designed horribly if it were to be stealth as it has a completely unstealth design. If you are tracking a target from BVR, which are you going to want, a jet that is invisible until it is within visual range or a jet that can be seen from BVR on a radar? No other country has purely stealth jets than the US.

Bullet.Tin
02-19-2009, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by s1zzl3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by trk29:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/...1/congress-f22-fail/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/21/congress-f22-fail/)

it'd be impossible to get rid of the F-22 now - there's already like 120 in service and more are being built every month - the only time the F-22 will end is AFTER it reaches the 183 minimum </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Really? I didn't know that, that would be $15,600,000,000 a lot of money

Adnihilis
02-19-2009, 03:22 PM
People DO know that the Terminator was never a production aircraft, right? Same with the Berkut.

I mean, it'd be the same as discussing that YF-12A or A-12. I mean, the A-12 was apparently never built at all aside from a mock-up. I'd rather the discussion dealt with actual, in use or very soon to be used aircraft rather than the performance characteristics of what are essentially demonstrator or experimental prototypes.

eaglex72
02-19-2009, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by LTPugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sgt.Smoke420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Naw man, your really backwards on this one. The US trains and sells Isreal all their Air Force soldiers and supplies. That is make such an effort to protect and help them whenever we can. They do have however, the #2 AF in the world, only behind us. Its due to us giving and training them. They are a US like AF, but not as lethal or quick as we are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are very wrong actually.

First:

Yes, as i mentioned, the US sells planes to the Israeli AF. HOWEVER, the Israeli AF (IAF) modifies the jets THEMSELVES, in THEIR FACTORIES, using THEIR technology. And some of it is more advanced.

Second:

The selection process for IAF pilots can be traced to Ezer Weizman, widely considered the architect of the modern Israeli Air Force, and his aim of recruiting only "the best for pilots." His reasoning was that the skill and bravery of the ground forces would be for naught if they could be attacked at will from the air. As a result, only those thought to possess the innate ability to succeed as Israeli pilots are even invited to begin the training process, and only the most qualified succeed in completing what is seen by many as the world's most demanding military selection course.

Consequently, potential Israeli pilots are identified prior to reporting for national service at age 18, based on factors such as high grades in school and top scores on standardized tests, excellent physical condition and high technical aptitude. Those who meet these and other criteria are invited to participate in a six-day gibush (cohesion), a selection phase involving physical, mental, and sociometric challenges. Recruits are screened not only for their ability to perform the tasks assigned, but for their attitude in performing them —such as how they take hardships and unexpected difficulties, how well they work in groups and how they approach problem solving and disaster management situations. As many as 90 percent of those who commence the gibush will be dropped from further consideration at its conclusion. (The physical demands of the gibush have been lessened recently, following the death of a participant in 2006.)

Those who pass the gibush embark on a three-year journey to earn their wings, which includes extensive flight training, infantry training, an officer's course, and studies towards an academic degree (a B.A. or B.Sc.). The prospective pilots are evaluated constantly, and the vast majority of those who begin flight training do not make it through the full program. Those expelled from the course will either remain in the air force in a non-flying capacity, or transfer to an army unit. (This depends to a large degree on the stage at which they leave the course.)

While in flying school, future pilots are sorted and assigned to train on different types of aircraft. Few become fighter pilots (considered by many to be the most desirable assignment), while the remainder learn to fly helicopters, transport aircraft, or train as navigators.

Hate to break it to you, Israel trains their OWN pilots.

And ALL citizens are required to serve in the military at some level.


Third:

The Israeli Air Force is considered the strongest air force in the Middle East, and one of the best and most sophisticated in the world. Over the past few decades Israel has purchased sophisticated American fighters and installed on them its locally developed and produced avionics and weapons. Perhaps the greatest strength of the IAF is the skill of its pilots. The IAF relies on its Air Intelligence Directorate for intelligence, including analysis of aerial photography. Many of the IAF's electronics and weapons systems are developed and built in Israel by Israel Military Industries, Israel Aerospace Industries, Elbit and others.

The IAF holds world records respective to the amounts of enemy warplanes shoot-downs, air combat performance, special operations, and air to ground operations from the jet era onward.

Some of the records and highlight moments are as follows:

Six Day War
June 5, 1967 – the Six Day War: The destruction of the entire Egyptian air-force within three hours. By the end of the day the Syrian and Jordanian air forces were wiped out as well. The IAF shoot-down total at the end of the war was a claimed record of 451 enemy aircraft downed versus nineteen of its own. See: Operation Focus.

War of Attrition
March, 1969 until August, 1970 – the War of Attrition: 111 enemy warplanes were shot-down in dogfights by IAF pilots while only four IAF warplanes were shot down in dogfights by enemy pilots (according to Israeli sources). Also, during the Cold War the Soviet Union held close relationships with the Arab nations. On July 30, 1970 the tension peaked: An IAF ambush resulted in a large scale air brawl between IAF planes and MiGs flown by Soviet pilots — five MiGs were shot down, while the IAF suffered no losses.

Yom Kippur War
October 9, 1973 – the Yom Kippur War: The destruction of the Syrian General Staff in Damascus: On October 9, 1973, two F-4 Phantom quartets attacked and destroyed the Syrian General Staff Headquarters in the heart of Damascus. The Syrian Air Force Headquarters was damaged as well.

Also, during the Yom Kippur War, the IAF shot down 277 enemy warplanes accounting for over a third of the IAF's total kills since 1948. However in this war over 50 planes were lost due to the introduction of new Soviet air defence equipment and doctrine: medium range SA-6 mobile SAM batteries and point defence provided by short range Shilka radar guided SPAAG and SA-7 Strela MANPADS (employed by Egyptian infantry), advancing with the mechanized forces and covered by older but longer range and still very dangerous SA-2 and SA-3 anti aircraft missile batteries. Israeli Air Force was the first Air Force that fought against the new Soviet doctrine of advancing mechanized forces covered by overlapping different surface based anti aircraft systems.

1982 Lebanon War
June 8, 1982 – 1982 Lebanon War: The destruction of the entire Soviet supplied Syrian air-defence system in Lebanon within a few hours without a single warplane lost; Syria with the help of the Soviet Union built up an overlapping network of surface-to-air missiles. It achieved in dogfights a total of 80 Syrian planes shoot-downs, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.

2006 Lebanon War
The IAF played a critical role in the 2006 Lebanon War by leading the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah. These strikes – mainly, though not exclusively, in southern Lebanon – were aimed at stopping rocket launches by Hezbollah's militia targeting Israeli towns. The IAF flew more than 12,000 combat missions during this war. The most notable mission, taking place during the second day of the war, resulted in the IAF destroying 59 Iranian-supplied medium- and long-range missile launchers in just 34 minutes. Widespread condemnation followed the July 30 IAF airstrike on a building suspected to be a militant hideout near the village of Qana, in which 28 civilians were killed. Hezbollah shot down an IAF CH-53 Yas'ur helicopter on the last day of the war, killing four male and one female aircrew members. Earlier, an IAF F-16I had crashed during take-off. Israeli aircraft also shot down three armed Iranian aerial drones during the conflict.

The only documented successful emergency landing of an F-15 with one wing, after losing its starboard wing in an airborne collision with an A-4 Skyhawk during training. The Skyhawk exploded and its pilot ejected. McDonnell-Douglas, manufacturer of the F-15, refused to believe it was possible until photos of the incident were released. The F-15 was subsequently restored to flight status.

"Ace" pilots: thirty-nine IAF pilots have shot down at least five jet planes; ten of those shot down at least eight jet planes.

"Ace of Aces": Colonel Giora Epstein shot down seventeen jet planes, holding the world record for jet aircraft shot down, and the most aircraft of any type shot down since the Korean War.

Obtaining the first shoot-downs for the F-15 and the F-16 fighter jets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I'm not saying your wrong on this but I think I've got a couple points.

One is that the Israeli AF does not invite potential pilots they are selected and made to take those courses. (At least to my knowledge)

The second is that while they did get all those air to air kills they were against arguably inferior pilots and planes.

And I think their would be more USAF aces if they actually faced more people who had planes they could shoot at in the first place.

The Isrelis do send pilots over for training but I think thats more to see how the US does things and maybe to see our new toys.

So while I'm not trying to contradict you I think a couple of the points are overemphasized wrong or I read it different from what you meant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are good points you make.

They are against inferior jets, most definitely inferior pilots as well.

But, according to what i heard, during combat simulations they still have an elite kill ratio.

I have a ton of respect for fighter pilots, i find their ratios to be amazing.

This is definitely a more interesting subject to talk about then people complaining about the game.

I'm happy there are other people who are into fighter jets.

And i didn't mean anything personally, i just like to debate and discuss.

eaglex72
02-19-2009, 03:30 PM
Back on subject, i hope they don't cut the F-22.

williejets
02-19-2009, 04:15 PM
yes it would be bad to cut the f22. f15s have been in service since when? the middle 70's? so that dates the basic technology of it in the 60s. of course they can do mods and update somethings.
please correct my dates if wrong.

dragan56
02-19-2009, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Adnihilis:
People DO know that the Terminator was never a production aircraft, right? Same with the Berkut.

I mean, it'd be the same as discussing that YF-12A or A-12. I mean, the A-12 was apparently never built at all aside from a mock-up. I'd rather the discussion dealt with actual, in use or very soon to be used aircraft rather than the performance characteristics of what are essentially demonstrator or experimental prototypes.

sorry mate the terminator is actually in production and you are right about the 47 its still in development but soon mate soon

nephilimafi
02-19-2009, 05:47 PM
Uh...pay attention to this line.

"It was originally designed to achieve air superiority over Soviet fighter jets, which will never be built…"

That's bull***! Russia is already working on the SU-T50 PAK "jointly" with India as we speak. They also tried to get Brazil to invest. The T50 rips off the F-22's design and it is going to be airborne by 2009 and in military service by 2012. This will leave the Soviets and India with high class 5th generation fighters and I'm sure Russia just can't wait to sell them to China. At that point, we've lost air superiority. Meanwhile, Japan reallllly wants to buy 150 of our F-22's but are backing down because they know we are folding the F-22 Raptor program. South Korea also wants to buy 100 F-15's and several F-22's. Why don't we just use the funds from that to produce more?

williejets
02-19-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by nephilimafi:
Uh...pay attention to this line.

"It was originally designed to achieve air superiority over Soviet fighter jets, which will never be built…"

That's bull***! Russia is already working on the SU-T50 PAK "jointly" with India as we speak. They also tried to get Brazil to invest. The T50 rips off the F-22's design and it is going to be airborne by 2009 and in military service by 2012. This will leave the Soviets and India with high class 5th generation fighters and I'm sure Russia just can't wait to sell them to China. At that point, we've lost air superiority. Meanwhile, Japan reallllly wants to buy 150 of our F-22's but are backing down because they know we are folding the F-22 Raptor program. South Korea also wants to buy 100 F-15's and several F-22's. Why don't we just use the funds from that to produce more?

interesting. it maybe airborne in 2009. but it will still have to run the through all test. they will still be testing there planes past 2012.

nephilimafi
02-19-2009, 05:57 PM
But I would like to know where the USAF Aurora X-23 fits in to all of this. I first heard of the Aurora back in the mid 90's (when the F22 was competing with the YF23) and my father mentioned something about it again today and I googled around, apparently, the project is still very much alive but there's still no concept designs floating around (which, is a good thing).

nephilimafi
02-19-2009, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by williejets:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nephilimafi:
Uh...pay attention to this line.

"It was originally designed to achieve air superiority over Soviet fighter jets, which will never be built…"

That's bull***! Russia is already working on the SU-T50 PAK "jointly" with India as we speak. They also tried to get Brazil to invest. The T50 rips off the F-22's design and it is going to be airborne by 2009 and in military service by 2012. This will leave the Soviets and India with high class 5th generation fighters and I'm sure Russia just can't wait to sell them to China. At that point, we've lost air superiority. Meanwhile, Japan reallllly wants to buy 150 of our F-22's but are backing down because they know we are folding the F-22 Raptor program. South Korea also wants to buy 100 F-15's and several F-22's. Why don't we just use the funds from that to produce more?

interesting. it maybe airborne in 2009. but it will still have to run the through all test. they will still be testing there planes past 2012. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, very true...anyway, I'm willing to bet that the F-22, F-35, and FB-22 are all planes that are to enter service at some point, but the more I think about it, I think that those were just "for now" sort of planes. I'm willing to bet, that the big project here may just may be the Aurora project. It's been going on forever now. The Aurora is the only thing I know of that is very tightly under wraps. The F22 didn't even try to be a secret, heck, I was sitting in the cockpit of one as a kid at Edwards AFB in 94. Also, too, Governments do have a tendency to want to call out another Governments bluff, so, it could also be fubar...just like the Russian Foxbat ended up being not so much a threat but was hyped to be an American plane killer lol.

Adnihilis
02-19-2009, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by nephilimafi:
But I would like to know where the USAF Aurora X-23 fits in to all of this. I first heard of the Aurora back in the mid 90's (when the F22 was competing with the YF23) and my father mentioned something about it again today and I googled around, apparently, the project is still very much alive but there's still no concept designs floating around (which, is a good thing).

And what, pray tell, are your sources?

By the way, Dragan: I haven't found a thing about the Terminator being considered for active production. Same with the Berkut. Same with the MiG-1.44. All were meant to be technology demonstrators.

The PAK FA has no record of actual development. India was meant to essentially finance the project, but last I heard, even that much hasn't been settled. Besides, China is allegedly trying to design one as is Korea. Someone mentioned that Japan is, as well, but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, Aurora is something of an urban (military) legend. Nothing remotely conclusive about its existence. Fact is, people were calling other supposedly black projects that, including, I think, the B-2 and others. Some of you guys are really high on conspiracy theory type shows and websites.

dragan56
02-19-2009, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Adnihilis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nephilimafi:
But I would like to know where the USAF Aurora X-23 fits in to all of this. I first heard of the Aurora back in the mid 90's (when the F22 was competing with the YF23) and my father mentioned something about it again today and I googled around, apparently, the project is still very much alive but there's still no concept designs floating around (which, is a good thing).

And what, pray tell, are your sources?

By the way, Dragan: I haven't found a thing about the Terminator being considered for active production. Same with the Berkut. Same with the MiG-1.44. All were meant to be technology demonstrators.

The PAK FA has no record of actual development. India was meant to essentially finance the project, but last I heard, even that much hasn't been settled. Besides, China is allegedly trying to design one as is Korea. Someone mentioned that Japan is, as well, but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, Aurora is something of an urban (military) legend. Nothing remotely conclusive about its existence. Fact is, people were calling other supposedly black projects that, including, I think, the B-2 and others. Some of you guys are really high on conspiracy theory type shows and websites. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

last i heard it was an interview i saw in full russia a friend translated but then again it could be bull s**t

williejets
02-19-2009, 06:57 PM
many ppl say the f-35 will be one of the last manned fighters made. probably just talk. but with uavs on the rise who knows. f15s have been in service for over 30 yrs. so who knows.

rep11
02-19-2009, 07:24 PM
The problem with UAV's right now is that they aren't as good as manned fighters. Just to stay on topic here, there isn't any UAV that can take on as much as an F-16. There is no fighter that is actually being built that can take on the F-22, and by the time anyone gets a 5th gen fighter, our Raptor will be so good, they won;t stand a chance. Another big thing, is that taking an F-22 in a one on one fight, the Raptor would win, but Raptor's will almost ALWAYS have an AWACs supporting, and vectoring them. They will always know where the enemy is, and quite possibly, they will have long range laser support. Don't say that I'm being crazy about that, laser systems will be available in some numbers in 10 years or so, maybe less. These will be built on big, airliner size aircrafts, which will be protected by their laser, and the Raptors. Lastly, we aren't stupid enough to not test the Raptor against another Raptor, so we will have doctrine to take on other 5th gen fighters, and our Raptor's pilots will know what to do, and when to do it.

Spartas-Julius
02-19-2009, 07:26 PM
well.....say hello to James carter screw up time once again.

In the middle of an economical turmoil, lower defense spending, leave the US more vulnerable than a baby out at midnight...and tons of jobs shed because of lowered defense spending.....

Future is going to be fun...

rep11
02-19-2009, 07:33 PM
Lol dude, first off, if anyone invaded our attacked us, the people invading us would die. Plain and simple, and we still spend more money on Department of Defense then EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD PUT TOGETHER. Thats because things like the F-22, E-8, MRAP, etc. cost a lot to make, plus our pres is bringing more defense contracts back to the USA.

williejets
02-19-2009, 07:33 PM
i agree with you, but as i mentioned if f15's have been used for 30+ years. imagine how long f22 will be used. and in that time uav tech maybe the fight of the future for AA. I know the f22 is top dog. i know a few things about it. and it isn't that dependent on awacs. the info the pilot gets from the plane alone is amazing. yes awacs are important and they have a major role in combat. i have seen the raptor in demo flights, and to see what it did at an aishow was crazy. i can only imagine what its like unleashed.

Spartas-Julius
02-19-2009, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by rep11:
Lol dude, first off, if anyone invaded our attacked us, the people invading us would die. Plain and simple, and we still spend more money on Department of Defense then EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD PUT TOGETHER. Thats because things like the F-22, E-8, MRAP, etc. cost a lot to make, plus our pres is bringing more defense contracts back to the USA.

thats the problem. I WISH ther ewould be a balance.

Problem is, just like carter, first is 10% then is down hill from there.

The problem is not if we are attacked. We would win, I am not disputing that.

The point of peing prepared is to suffer less strain on both our servicemen and woman, as well as treasury.

But wait, hasn't russia been selling radar upgrades to iran...which the only known composite to be able to penetrate tha radar is...the f-22.?.

But wait let me guess, is the answer of "we have enough"... that has always worked well.

GhostRiderLSOV
02-20-2009, 02:12 AM
Well, to invade the US, it would take a long sea trip and unless it's Red Alert 2 or World in Conflict, I doubt a force that isn't comprised of lots of nations' hardware would make it.

Still, I dislike the whole "we'd never lose" attitude since there never was such an invasion in real life to know what would happen. And if a force managed to cross the sea with sufficient numbers to invade (and not 2 Gauls like in Asterix http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif), then many of the US's defences would be crippled already I guess.

But all of that stuff is scenarios and like it was said before "theories don't shoot down planes" (or something like that).

And on-topic, yeah, good technology is expensive.

BakyardShniper
02-20-2009, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Adnihilis:

Anyway, Aurora is something of an urban (military) legend. Nothing remotely conclusive about its existence. Fact is, people were calling other supposedly black projects that, including, I think, the B-2 and others. Some of you guys are really high on conspiracy theory type shows and websites.

Project FALCON(which would be likely what anything like "Aurora" would fall under is still there. The closest thing i can think of to the Aurora, is the Blackswift, also known as FALCON HTV-3X. Strange thing is that a MOU for the developement was signed by the USAF and DARPA in 2007. Funding was supposedly cancelled in 2008. Possible transfer to a "Black" project, maybe?

It's been said that with modern technologies, the intakes on the Blackbird would be capable of Mach 6+, so............

williejets
02-20-2009, 03:49 AM
the intakes on the blackbird have an adjusting cone to limit air coming in. when you hit a certain speed (can't remember what it is), air takes the properties of a non-compressible liquid. so bernuli's principle is reversed in the engine. so let's say the engines design is to decrease velocity to increase pressure, at the core. then at speed where this happens velocity would increase and pressure would decrease.

ollie2bown
02-20-2009, 04:34 AM
Although I love the F22 I am still choked that the YF23 did not win the ATF contest as I much prefer it's design, much more radical looking. The Raptor just looks like a stealthy F15 to me with it's conventional layout, not a bad thing its just a bit conventional.

For the same reason I really preferred the look of the boeing JSF entrant as it looked really different. In fact, it would be great if they included that plane as DLC...

dragan56
02-20-2009, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Spartas-Julius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rep11:
Lol dude, first off, if anyone invaded our attacked us, the people invading us would die. Plain and simple, and we still spend more money on Department of Defense then EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD PUT TOGETHER. Thats because things like the F-22, E-8, MRAP, etc. cost a lot to make, plus our pres is bringing more defense contracts back to the USA.

thats the problem. I WISH ther ewould be a balance.

Problem is, just like carter, first is 10% then is down hill from there.

The problem is not if we are attacked. We would win, I am not disputing that.

The point of peing prepared is to suffer less strain on both our servicemen and woman, as well as treasury.

But wait, hasn't russia been selling radar upgrades to iran...which the only known composite to be able to penetrate tha radar is...the f-22.?.

But wait let me guess, is the answer of "we have enough"... that has always worked well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

55 mi is not a long distance but i do understand your point

nephilimafi
02-21-2009, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by ollie2bown:
Although I love the F22 I am still choked that the YF23 did not win the ATF contest as I much prefer it's design, much more radical looking. The Raptor just looks like a stealthy F15 to me with it's conventional layout, not a bad thing its just a bit conventional.

For the same reason I really preferred the look of the boeing JSF entrant as it looked really different. In fact, it would be great if they included that plane as DLC...


What's wrong with that? Let's not forget the F15 is one successful fighter. Not once has an F15 been shot down in conflict and it has performed close to 400 operations.

nephilimafi
02-21-2009, 11:06 AM
Look, check it out...the F22 isn't going anywhere.

http://www.f22-raptor.com/

Read the most recent news (as of 3 days ago).

The issue, is, whether we are to produce 183 F22's, or the real goal of 380+. The Obama administration requires a decision by March 1, on as to whether we are going to acquire more. It's not that we aren't getting any, it's whether that number is 183, or 380. They are pushing really hard for 380. The Air Force would ideally want well over 380. The Air Force also states, that 183 F22's (again, 80 of which will be pulled for training purposes), will not be enough to fulfill potential threats within the next 30 years. They also stress, that China is out biggest threat.

BTR74
02-21-2009, 11:15 AM
Yeah, there are already alot of Raptors in service, it's just that if the production is cancelled, it could wind up like the B-2: The Air Forces does have a few in service, but only a fraction of the intended/needed number

I personally think that we should keep the Raptor in low-rate production, to save us some money, and in the 2010s when China and Russia are farther along on their 5th gen projects, we can begin mass production

And it's not Obama who's brining down the hammer, it's that jerk SecDef Gates http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Time magazine just ran an article glorifying his efforts to butcher the military's most important projects http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Patriot93
02-21-2009, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by GhostRiderLSOV:
Well, to invade the US, it would take a long sea trip and unless it's Red Alert 2 or World in Conflict, I doubt a force that isn't comprised of lots of nations' hardware would make it.

Still, I dislike the whole "we'd never lose" attitude since there never was such an invasion in real life to know what would happen. And if a force managed to cross the sea with sufficient numbers to invade (and not 2 Gauls like in Asterix http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif), then many of the US's defences would be crippled already I guess.

But all of that stuff is scenarios and like it was said before "theories don't shoot down planes" (or something like that).

And on-topic, yeah, good technology is expensive.

Haha and if you think about it, if there was an invasion, they wouldn't just be fighting the military. They would fight every cop and gunowner like me,. That is a hell of a lot of people in the states. It would be a butcher. Until that nuke flies over at least.

nephilimafi
02-21-2009, 11:21 AM
Also, let's drop the whole F-22 vs "enter plane name here". We know nothing about the F-22, except, what is on paper. Also, keep in mind that "classic merges" or "dog fights" are sparse these days. It's all about hitting targets before they knew what hit them...and that's what the F22 excels at (more so, than the F14 and F15). Also, during the Langley demonstration, the pilot was interviewed, there were certain capabilities that are not allowed to be shown publicly. We know nothing. Also, I asked an Air Force Mechanic as to whether the F22 was really only capable of barely breaking Mach 2 (I know, speed isn't everything), and he replied with "what's on paper, is only on paper" or something to this effect. It's obvious...a chef isn't going to release his secret ingredients.

nephilimafi
02-21-2009, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by BTR74:

I personally think that we should keep the Raptor in low-rate production, to save us some money, and in the 2010s when China and Russia are farther along on their 5th gen projects, we can begin mass production


That's a great idea, give them time to tweak out some design adjustments as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snazzyjdawg
02-21-2009, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by dragan56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DAFOC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dragan56:
i am not getting into a political battle with you i am just stating my opinion i like american planes just not that one like i said in a different post its the price tag that kinda makes me sick every time i look at the thing also you do realize its not the best compare the specs of the 22 to that of a SU-37 the only thing the 22 gots on it is service ceiling and your commenent on the mid-east your fighting a bunch of guys who have AK-47s and RPG-7 nothing compared to a F-16, F-18 so its like watching a adult beat up a child and that sir is illigal ever hear of the exsessive force article in the Geneve Conventions

BTW you edited your post thats cool and all i dont want to argue with you i am just stating my apinion. are we cool


Wait so you dont lik the F-22 because its to good?
WTF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no i am saying that the only thing the 22 can do better then the SU-37 perfomance wise ie. manuevers speed and such is its surface celing of 65k fr compared to the 37s 60k ft every thing else the 37 beats 22 and i dont like it for 2 reasons its wayy too expensive and the fact that its said its the best plane in the world when a 4.5 gen SU-37 can out manuever it and out pase it by .25 mach thats a lot when you look at it

F-22 stats
Speed 2.25 mach
S-celing 65,000ft
2D thrust vectoring

SU-37 stats
Speed 2.5 mach
S-ciling 60,000ft
3D thrust vectoring

well got to go to college and learn talk to you guys later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Manueverability means **** The F-22 is a hit and run aircraft it will take you out and get away dont get me wrong it will win some dog fights but it really is a hit and run aircraft IMO and price is big deal were the us we spend a million dollars on making the white house look pretty. Also DEW is on its way and has started massive research its a laser weapon systems that F-22 will most likely carry within a couple of years. You can dodge a bullet, a missile, a wrench, however you cant dodge a laser guided beam of light. GL to the rest of the plane builders

USA LIVE ON!

williejets
02-21-2009, 06:18 PM
the f22s top speed is classified and so is its service ceiling. i will not say the 22 is better than the 37 but as i have said and a few others, you can't base a judgment off of half the info available. the moves i have seen the f22 do opened my eyes as i never thought any plane could do them. so i can only imagine what it could do in a battle. now i have never seen a 37 so if it can do more than the 22 thats amazing. regardless of what have read its top speed and s-ceiling is classified. my brother in law is rapter pilot at nellis afb.

Spartas-Julius
02-21-2009, 06:20 PM
Totally true. The f-22 can go head to head against all other aircraft. the new russian plane can go head to head with the f-22 I dont dispute that.

But just like the dude above me said, its main trait is guerilla like tactics, when you see something in the radar, 2 out fo 5 planes will be down. They keep distance and do it again.

Airforce finally has the tech to be like the infantry. Going face to face with the enemy will be needed from time to tiem, but the point is having the element of surprise :P.

Garm16
02-21-2009, 06:33 PM
just saying
but compare the cobra between Su and F-22...
F-22's cobra really sucks....

and I haven't seen F-22 perforem Heli or back flip yet which Su-37 has accomplished both

williejets
02-21-2009, 06:35 PM
it's made for dog fights, and BVR. its main strategy is kill before being seen. i couldn't tell you who would win in a dog fight, becasue we are forgetting about the biggest variable in the equation. the pilot. sure it could probably fly itself but the x-factor is the pilot.

williejets
02-21-2009, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Garm16:
just saying
but compare the cobra between Su and F-22...
F-22's cobra really sucks....

and I haven't seen F-22 perforem Heli or back flip yet which Su-37 has accomplished both

f-22 can back like the su did in one of the latest videos. i saw this at an airshow. f22 shouldn't need to do a cobra in a dog fight. if there is an airshow near you where a f22 is flying watch it you'll be impressed with it.

Garm16
02-21-2009, 07:08 PM
i'll check it on youtube later

but still, F-22 haven't performed Heli yet

williejets
02-21-2009, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Garm16:
i'll check it on youtube later

but still, F-22 haven't performed Heli yet
i hope they have a video of it. are you sure it hasn't? i'm not saying it has but from what i have seen and know it shouldn't be taken lightly. i am not saying the su is a worse plane or better. BVR is its main choice, but it can get in your face and dog fight. i just wouldn't underestimate a fighter because of what you have seen or not seen it do. there are many moves and tactics that the pilots can't show for various reasons. speed, showing of training techniques, and so on and so on.

LexKaziDelfos
02-21-2009, 07:31 PM
wow four pages of kids fighting over a toy. F-22 is an expensive toy, there's good airplanes in the USAF already, they just want "yall" to pay taxes for a few hundred people's vacation in Hawai. There is a void on USAF AA airplanes with latest tech, doesn't mean you have to sell all your F16s and make F22s. Either way, there's more "looks" in F22 than in the EF2000 if you want to compare looks with performance.

It's amasing how the mods just let people rant to each other.

RAPTORSKY
02-21-2009, 07:33 PM
The raptor is in use by the USAf. If USA went to war with russia or china there "copy raptors" are Still paper plane projects. Therefore the US would have advantage in air supremacy.

nephilimafi
02-21-2009, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Garm16:
just saying
but compare the cobra between Su and F-22...
F-22's cobra really sucks....

and I haven't seen F-22 perforem Heli or back flip yet which Su-37 has accomplished both

Back flip and flat spin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca9UecfdY4o

by the way, we see what they show us...case closed. Top speed classified, total ceiling height classified, avionics and supercruise classified, so why wouldn't the extremities of these maneuvers be classified as well. Also, note that the F22 has a better power to weight ratio than the SU37. Russian planes are thick and durable but don't make no mistake, they are very nice pieces of work but you can tell a lot of love and craftsman ship went into the F22. I'm proud to live in this country.

Snazzyjdawg
02-21-2009, 07:39 PM
The US has some of the most advanced technology in the world. The F-22 is one of the biggest pieces of advanced technology in the world, The f-22 can do some pretty amazing things and I'm sure the SU-37 can two but the reality is we wont ever know the Su-37 isnt being produced end of story. Yes the SU-37 is better at Maneuverability but the F-22 stealth hands down destroys it not to mention the laser that is soon being implemented on it. (DEW) which is in research/production phase will own every plane, you can dodge missiles and bullets but light is far to fast to dodge.

LexKaziDelfos
02-21-2009, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Snazzyjdawg:
The US has some of the most advanced technology in the world. The F-22 is one of the biggest pieces of advanced technology in the world, The f-22 can do some pretty amazing things and I'm sure the SU-37 can two but the reality is we wont ever know the Su-37 isnt being produced end of story. Yes the SU-37 is better at Maneuverability but the F-22 stealth hands down destroys it not to mention the laser that is soon being implemented on it. (DEW) which is in research/production phase will own every plane, you can dodge missiles and bullets but light is far to fast to dodge.

dodge bullets? right...put an F22 on the sight of a Shilka and see what happens, even old models can take out F117s.

Garm16
02-21-2009, 07:49 PM
exactly ?

one day stealth technology that the F-22 is using right now will be busted

Mig-29
02-21-2009, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Snazzyjdawg:
The US has some of the most advanced technology in the world. The F-22 is one of the biggest pieces of advanced technology in the world, The f-22 can do some pretty amazing things and I'm sure the SU-37 can two but the reality is we wont ever know the Su-37 isnt being produced end of story. Yes the SU-37 is better at Maneuverability but the F-22 stealth hands down destroys it not to mention the laser that is soon being implemented on it. (DEW) which is in research/production phase will own every plane, you can dodge missiles and bullets but light is far to fast to dodge.
I agree that the F22 can beat the Su-37 without much trouble. Isn't it stealth? Thats a huge advantage.

One thing that should be noted though is that the Su-37 is quite dated. The latest Su-35 model is quite better form what I've learned.

Garm16
02-21-2009, 08:08 PM
Mig

You are just like the high rank officer during Vietnam war...thinks that missiles has 100% chance to hit a target and caused heavy lost for the F-4....

Su-47 CAN DODGE MISSILES

Su-35BM 2008 upgraded Su-35

equiped with AL-41F1A engine
took out the speed brakes
mid air refueling
increase air intake
new cockpit interface
Passive Phased Array Radar, PPAR radar

williejets
02-21-2009, 08:34 PM
my point is. you can't compare these fighters, because what we know or read is limited. there are many things classified about them, as many of the systems are in place today, and are being advanced. Nephilimafi, you and ai are on the same page about only knowing what we are shown and told. LexKaziDelfos, f-16's and f15s do their jobs well. but they are old. look at the year the f15s have been in service. we need a new fighter. in the f22 sortie survival rate, and mission success rates both have been 90% higher than both. its not a rant just a simple discussion. the engines were designed in the 60's with tcto's and few other changes the years. we are talking about fighters pretty much designed with the technology of the late 50's to mid 60's. the need for new fighters can't be stressed enough. Nov 2007, that f-15 that damn near fell apart. its an old feet. f15s and f16s cost is crazy to maintain them now.

WhiteKnight77
02-22-2009, 12:53 AM
Most of you are arguing for the most assinine reasons. How many of you are or have been in the military or even live near a military base? Being born on and living near Air Force bases my entire life, I have seen bombers, fighters and trash haulers of all sorts of varieties and age. I have also spent 6 years in the Marines as an jet engine/helo mechanic/crew chief. Right now, I am staying at a hotel barely 2 miles from the runway at Langely AFB, the first place to get operational F-22's. They are also made right outside my backdoor at the Lockheed Martin plant (they also make Sky Pigs, or C-130s) in Marietta GA which shares the runway with Dobbins ARB/NAS Atlanta.

Most of what you know about planes is only what the military will allow you to know as related by others already. The first order of business is you do not tell potential enemies the complete capabilities of your weapon systems. Sure, we have shown some of the F-22s abilities, just like the Russians have of their top of the line fighters, but we do not know their full potential.

While the 22 is expected to fight BVR, why do you think it has the capabilities to do what we have seen in the flight demo(I have a slightly better quality version of the Langley demo video). How many of you really paid attention to it? Notice that the backflips and Hammerhead stall and even some climbs are at slow speeds. Also notice that after the initial climb and slow down it executes a 90 degree turn (vertical to horizontal) and speeds off. During the Hammerhead, look at the stabilators, they move independently of each other and in differenbt directions. These maneuvers just barely hint at what the plane is capable of, especially in a dogfight (I alluded to being able to dogfight in a different thread previously).

New planes are expensive to build, old planes are expensive to maintain. Sometimes old planes get the job done (like the B-52) for most jobs, but in a fighter role, planes do not really last long. The stresses that aerial combat exerts on airframs does some pretty nasty things to it (like the F-15 that lost the front end of the bird some time ago).

As for killing the new government killing the F-22, it's possible as well as the F-35 and the V-22 programs. I tried to explain it to some of the people who work for the company I am working at (I am a contractor for an NDT company) who make parts for those aircraft, that they could lose their jobs. They said oh well, we want him for President and yes, Presidents can kill or continue weapons programs. Carter killed the B-1 and Reagan brought it back.

Food for thought.

Patriot93
02-22-2009, 12:59 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Thanks for your service man

DNAz5646
02-22-2009, 02:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif TAKE A BOW!!

williejets
02-22-2009, 04:56 AM
WhiteKNight77
you pretty much said what i have said, but i will admit you explained it a whole lot better than i did. I am a jet engine mechanic for the AF. i have been one for almost 8 1/2 years. I work on f15 engine, i worked B-1bs for 5 years. my in law is a f22 pilot who was stationed at LAFB. so i know why its expensive, but i also know its justified. both fighters. Although i wouldn't call it arguing. a few people on here tried to be neutral and explain that we don't know the full picture. so maybe with your clear cut explanation you have reminded them the military still keeps secrets. and i don't mean just ours.

thanks for you service

Zashark
02-22-2009, 06:53 AM
I think the F-22 is one of the best looking fighters to grace the skies! (just my opinion)

JSF-89
02-22-2009, 08:51 AM
Carter killed the B-1 and Reagan brought it back.

Ah yes, another shining example of why Liberals suck.
If it werent for Republicans we'd still be using cannons and muskets here in the great ole USofA.
But hey, at least our taxes would be a couple bucks cheaper right???

Pieman13
02-22-2009, 08:56 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Snazzyjdawg
02-22-2009, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
Most of you are arguing for the most assinine reasons. How many of you are or have been in the military or even live near a military base? Being born on and living near Air Force bases my entire life, I have seen bombers, fighters and trash haulers of all sorts of varieties and age. I have also spent 6 years in the Marines as an jet engine/helo mechanic/crew chief. Right now, I am staying at a hotel barely 2 miles from the runway at Langely AFB, the first place to get operational F-22's. They are also made right outside my backdoor at the Lockheed Martin plant (they also make Sky Pigs, or C-130s) in Marietta GA which shares the runway with Dobbins ARB/NAS Atlanta.

Most of what you know about planes is only what the military will allow you to know as related by others already. The first order of business is you do not tell potential enemies the complete capabilities of your weapon systems. Sure, we have shown some of the F-22s abilities, just like the Russians have of their top of the line fighters, but we do not know their full potential.

While the 22 is expected to fight BVR, why do you think it has the capabilities to do what we have seen in the flight demo(I have a slightly better quality version of the Langley demo video). How many of you really paid attention to it? Notice that the backflips and Hammerhead stall and even some climbs are at slow speeds. Also notice that after the initial climb and slow down it executes a 90 degree turn (vertical to horizontal) and speeds off. During the Hammerhead, look at the stabilators, they move independently of each other and in differenbt directions. These maneuvers just barely hint at what the plane is capable of, especially in a dogfight (I alluded to being able to dogfight in a different thread previously).

New planes are expensive to build, old planes are expensive to maintain. Sometimes old planes get the job done (like the B-52) for most jobs, but in a fighter role, planes do not really last long. The stresses that aerial combat exerts on airframs does some pretty nasty things to it (like the F-15 that lost the front end of the bird some time ago).

As for killing the new government killing the F-22, it's possible as well as the F-35 and the V-22 programs. I tried to explain it to some of the people who work for the company I am working at (I am a contractor for an NDT company) who make parts for those aircraft, that they could lose their jobs. They said oh well, we want him for President and yes, Presidents can kill or continue weapons programs. Carter killed the B-1 and Reagan brought it back.

Food for thought.

People like you is what makes me keep coming back to the forums. Thank you!

Dark-Wolf-F-11
02-22-2009, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Sgt.Smoke420:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eaglex72:
Israeli Air Force, i have heard from military people, has the best fighter pilots in the world.

I hear they cleaned up in War Games. Including the US.

They have to be. It is nature of the beast. They are on the front line everyday.

Also, weren't we (USA) supposed to be selling the Israelis a bunch of F-35B STOVL??

Naw man, your really backwards on this one. The US trains and sells Isreal all their Air Force soldiers and supplies. That is make such an effort to protect and help them whenever we can. They do have however, the #2 AF in the world, only behind us. Its due to us giving and training them. They are a US like AF, but not as lethal or quick as we are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Israeli armed forces are the best combat trained forces in the world, not necessarily the best equipment. They are very well trained and 'adaptable' to combat because since WWII they have been fighting nearly all the time!

WhiteKnight77
02-22-2009, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by JSF-89:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Carter killed the B-1 and Reagan brought it back.

Ah yes, another shining example of why Liberals suck.
If it werent for Republicans we'd still be using cannons and muskets here in the great ole USofA.
But hey, at least our taxes would be a couple bucks cheaper right??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even go there as it shows your lack of knowing history. Prior to WW2, it was Conservatives who didn't want us getting involved prior to Pearl Harbor. It was them who kept the military from having proper equipment for even training so much that to simulate tanks, they painted TANK on plywood panels and bolted them to trucks and infantry had no rifles.

It just happens to be that those who forget history tend to repeat it. It does not matter what political affiliation they have (for the record, I am conservative, but I fault all politicians for our current problems).

WhiteKnight77
02-22-2009, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by williejets:
WhiteKNight77
you pretty much said what i have said, but i will admit you explained it a whole lot better than i did. I am a jet engine mechanic for the AF. i have been one for almost 8 1/2 years. I work on f15 engine, i worked B-1bs for 5 years. my in law is a f22 pilot who was stationed at LAFB. so i know why its expensive, but i also know its justified. both fighters. Although i wouldn't call it arguing. a few people on here tried to be neutral and explain that we don't know the full picture. so maybe with your clear cut explanation you have reminded them the military still keeps secrets. and i don't mean just ours.

thanks for you service

I was born on a SAC bomber base in 61 in upstate NY. From there I went to another SAC bomber base in Louisiana (Bush flew there on 9-11) before ending up in Japan. Then we moved to SAC HQ in Nebraska (they also had a British attachement who flew a Vulcan Bomber) where Looking Glass is/was stationed. From there ended up at TAC HQ at Langley (Pops was a photo interpreter). In 74 the 94th TFS first started getting F-15s and and were the first squadron to get F-22s. I also have been all over Kadena AFB on Okinawa when I was stationed at the MCAS south of there (where the Habu, as known by the locals or SR-71 was also stationed). I met pilots of said bird and all they had on the patches was 3+ Mach (again admitted speed). They were pretty laid back, but wouldn't answer more detailed questions, even to other military personel.

JSF-89
02-22-2009, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSF-89:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Carter killed the B-1 and Reagan brought it back.

Ah yes, another shining example of why Liberals suck.
If it werent for Republicans we'd still be using cannons and muskets here in the great ole USofA.
But hey, at least our taxes would be a couple bucks cheaper right??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even go there as it shows your lack of knowing history. Prior to WW2, it was Conservatives who didn't want us getting involved prior to Pearl Harbor. It was them who kept the military from having proper equipment for even training so much that to simulate tanks, they painted TANK on plywood panels and bolted them to trucks and infantry had no rifles.

It just happens to be that those who forget history tend to repeat it. It does not matter what political affiliation they have (for the record, I am conservative, but I fault all politicians for our current problems). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes yes yes, i know my WW2, it is one of my favorite periods of history.
Remember though, prior to World War 2, the U.S. was an isolationist country from a political and military standpoint.
We traded with other countries but for the most part we kept to ourselves, remember how much it took for the U.S. to get involved in WW1??
We didnt want to break trade with the Germans until they kept attacking our civilian ships, which no doubt, was insanely stupid, because it woke up a sleeping bear. Dont Tread on me.

williejets
02-22-2009, 12:59 PM
I was born on a SAC bomber base in 61 in upstate NY. From there I went to another SAC bomber base in Louisiana (Bush flew there on 9-11) before ending up in Japan. Then we moved to SAC HQ in Nebraska (they also had a British attachement who flew a Vulcan Bomber) where Looking Glass is/was stationed. From there ended up at TAC HQ at Langley (Pops was a photo interpreter). In 74 the 94th TFS first started getting F-15s and and were the first squadron to get F-22s. I also have been all over Kadena AFB on Okinawa when I was stationed at the MCAS south of there (where the Habu, as known by the locals or SR-71 was also stationed). I met pilots of said bird and all they had on the patches was 3+ Mach (again admitted speed). They were pretty laid back, but wouldn't answer more detailed questions, even to other military personel.[/QUOTE]

yes we only know about the air craft what they let us know. there are still numerous things classified on f15s. i haven't been around as much as you. been deployed a few times, seen planes take off with bombs, and come back empty. been to many debriefs with the crews, but still i have no idea of what all the air crafts can do. at 7lvl school we discussed the sr-71. that engine is very complex. the whole altitude, and speed changing the airs properties hurts my head trying to learn how they figured it out.

Garm16
02-22-2009, 01:03 PM
Part of the SR-71's engine is ramjet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Brockwan
02-22-2009, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by williejets:
WhiteKNight77
you pretty much said what i have said, but i will admit you explained it a whole lot better than i did. I am a jet engine mechanic for the AF. i have been one for almost 8 1/2 years. I work on f15 engine, i worked B-1bs for 5 years. my in law is a f22 pilot who was stationed at LAFB. so i know why its expensive, but i also know its justified. both fighters. Although i wouldn't call it arguing. a few people on here tried to be neutral and explain that we don't know the full picture. so maybe with your clear cut explanation you have reminded them the military still keeps secrets. and i don't mean just ours.

thanks for you service

and also managed to bore the living daylights out of us. I want my two minutes of life back please.

williejets
02-22-2009, 02:00 PM
and also managed to bore the living daylights out of us. I want my two minutes of life back please.[/QUOTE]

i'm glad. because it's my fault you decided to read a thread that was six pages long, read my post, and take the time to try and get smart. then have the brains to ask for time back.

Brockwan
02-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by williejets:
and also managed to bore the living daylights out of us. I want my two minutes of life back please.

i'm glad. because it's my fault you decided to read a thread that was six pages long, read my post, and take the time to try and get smart. then have the brains to ask for time back.[/QUOTE]

ooh tuff talk, its almost like you're trying to sound intelligent. I said the post bored me, not the thread.

dragan56
02-22-2009, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by williejets:
the f22s top speed is classified and so is its service ceiling. i will not say the 22 is better than the 37 but as i have said and a few others, you can't base a judgment off of half the info available. the moves i have seen the f22 do opened my eyes as i never thought any plane could do them. so i can only imagine what it could do in a battle. now i have never seen a 37 so if it can do more than the 22 thats amazing. regardless of what have read its top speed and s-ceiling is classified. my brother in law is rapter pilot at nellis afb.

i agree with you i am a fan of the 37 and like i said ive been up close and personal with the 22 but yea there is clasified items on both planes we just estimate the speed and surface ceiling so in short i agree with you despite my earlier criticisms

WhiteKnight77
02-22-2009, 11:31 PM
Here is something else to think about. Back when the SR-71 was in service, it exclusively used JP-8 jet fuel while the rest of the Air Force used JP-4 (the Navy and the Marines use JP-4 and JP-5 with JP-5 used mostly onboard ships). The reason JP-8 was used was due to it's higher flammability limits compared to 4/5 and the heat generated in flight.

Now the Air Force still uses it service wide from what I see one can guess the reasons why.
Either the AF has some new ultra high altitude aircraft or there are some new speed demons. Now this is supposition on my part as I am unfamiliar with the engines used in the F-22, but I can tell you, to use a different fuel in the T-58 engines in the CH-46, you had to change a setting on the fuel control to allow for the thicker fuel to flow through it. Is the Pratt & Whitney F119 made to use it? I am not sure, but it very well may be.