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Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 11:25 AM
I am starting this thread as a place to centralize discussion with respect to the attack on Pearl Harbor. This is a spinoff from a thread started by Wilhelm Schulz, so as not to take that one off topic and also so that those who are interested in the Pearl Harbor would not be left out because the topic was being discussed elsewhere under a different title.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 11:26 AM
The "Gandhi" character referenced in the other thread was Captain Kameto Kurojima. I may post a bit more about him later, but just wanted to get this thread started.

Celeon999
02-21-2007, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
The "Gandhi" character referenced in the other thread was Captain Kameto Kurojima. I may post a bit more about him later, but just wanted to get this thread started.


Are you sure ? I believe they refered to Minoru Genda and just got the name wrong.

He worked out the plan and entire logisitics for the whole operation on Pearl Harbor.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Minoru_Genda.jpg

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 11:37 AM
Looking in the index of my copy of "At Dawn We Slept" I see the "Ghandi" character is listed as Captain Kameto Kuroshima, a slightly different spelling of the surname. Is colleagues referred to him as "Ganji" which is the Japanese form of Gandhi. He joined Yamamoto in the autumn of of 1939, serving as his senior staff officer. He was primarily a gunnery officer prior to joining Yamamoto and was primarily in charge of overall planning. As such, he was one of the important officers who evaluated the Pearl Harbor attack plan.

Japanese society at that time put an emphasis on conformity, and still does to some extent. He was eccentric to the point of weirdness. His first name, Kameto, means "tortoise man." It suited him well, as he loved to retreat into his shell when working on a plan. As such, that scene in Tora Tora Tora is an accurate depiction of his working style. He would sequester himself in his cabin with the lights off, only turning them on to scribble ideas as they came to him. He would eat his meals in his cabin instead of with his colleagues and allow an obscene accumulation of dirty dishes and glasses full of cigarette butts until forced to clean them up by the protests of his fellow officers. At the end, he would emerge from his cabin with a plan in mind and rapidly dictate notes of a fully worked up staff study.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
The "Gandhi" character referenced in the other thread was Captain Kameto Kurojima. I may post a bit more about him later, but just wanted to get this thread started.


Are you sure ? I believe they refered to Minoru Genda and just got the name wrong.

He worked out the plan and entire logisitics for the whole operation on Pearl Harbor.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Minoru_Genda.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm 100% certain. In fact, I looked up the reference to Gandhi on the TTT DVD as well as consulted "At Dawn We Slept" by Gordon W. Prange, the ultimate Pearl Harbor expert.

It is natural for us to assume that "Gandhi" was Genda because they sound similar, but I assure they are two different men, as outlined above.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 11:45 AM
There was a small core of men who did the major planning for the Pearl Harbor attack. Of course, as the plan grew, many other officers would have to assist with sundry details, but the initial core of officers working on the plan were:

Yamamoto
***udome [chief of staff]
Kuroshima [Gandhi - senior staff officer]
Genda [staff officer for air]

The overall objective of the attack on Pearl Harbor was to secretly bring the task force to within aerial striking distance of Pearl Harbor and then to launch an aerial strike, while avoiding both detection and counterattack by the Americans. As such, this required intensive planning for the maneuvering of the task force on the way to and from Pearl Harbor as well as the planning for the actual aerial strike. Thus, this monumental plan required the input of officers experienced at both the naval and aerial aspects of carrier operations.

Celeon999
02-21-2007, 11:56 AM
Ahhh now i know what my mistake was.

The scene in the trailer shows Kuroshima when the speaker mentions Ghandi. I remembered the scene from the movie and Kuroshima was speaking about "Genda's brilliant plan" and so i mixed both personalities up and assumed that Genda was the one seen in that scene. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

I believe that Kuroshima was the first one to support Genda's version of the operation plan.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 11:59 AM
In February, 1941, Genda delivered his preliminary draft plan to Rear Admiral Takijiro Onishi. It envisioned a massive carrier fleet delivering a knock out punch to the US Pacific Fleet at anchorage. His initial draft, which ultimately came close to the actual outcome, outlined the following requirements:

1. The attack must catch the enemy completely by surprise.
2. The main objective of the attack should be U.S. carriers.
3. Another priority target should be U.S. land-based planes on Oahu.
4. Every available carrier should participate in the operation.
5. The attack should utilize all types of bombing - torpedo, dive and high-level.
6. Fighter planes should play an active part in the attack.
7. The attack should be made in daylight, preferably in the early morning.
8. Refueling at sea would be necessary.
9. All planning must be done in strict secrecy.

In his discussion with Onishi, Genda said that he favoured a follow-up landing in the Hawaiian islands. The objective would be to deny the U.S. its largest and best advance base and also would put Japan in a commanding position for future operations: the U.S. would have to retreat to the West Coast and Japan would dominate the central Pacific. Genda assumed 10-15000 troops could take the islands, but this part of his plan was turned down, in order to allow Japan to concentrate on landings elsewhere in the Pacific.

In hindsight [the only sight I could have, since I wasn't born until 20 years later!] Genda's plan for a landing seems likely to have succeeded, given how successful Japanese landings were elsewhere in the Pacific. Had the Japanese succeeded in taking Hawaii, they also would have bagged the damaged battleships which were later salvaged and repaired and put back into the fight.

Stingray-65
02-21-2007, 01:24 PM
Just curious... has anyone here ever heard anything about the U.S. breaking Japanese codes prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor? I seem to have heard this in a documentary on code-breakers somewhere, but not sure.

Also, did the U.S. have radar in 1941? Britain was using it in 1940.

I also found it interesting that in recent years it has come to light that the U.S. fired the 1st shot at Pearl Harbor, sinking a Japanese sub. When this happened & it was reported, they were told to cease fire, that they were shooting at whales. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 01:32 PM
The US were doing a heck of a job decoding Japanese communications prior to WW2. They routinely read the diplomatic codes and had them decoded before the Japanese recipients did! The US were also reading a lot of the Japanes naval ciphers, but Kido Butai [the PH strike group] went into radio silence and fell from the screen. The USN assumed it to still be in home waters when it was actually at sea, heading for PH.

Pearl Harbor has an experimental radar setup, and it was not manned 24-7. It was under the control of the US Army, which was tasked with protecting the Pacific Fleet at anchorage. Part of the reason for the fiasco of PH was the division of responsibility for the defences. The priority of the Army was different from the priority of the Navy. General Short [Army] was preoccupied by sabotage, while Admiral Kimmel [Navy] was more concerned with an aerial attack on PH. But, it was the Army's show and ultimately they hold the main responsibility. Their primary duty was to defend the Fleet at anchorage and failed to do so. As seen in the movie, Tora Tora Tora, preliminary detection of the Japanese planes was assumed to be something else [a B-17 group being ferried to PH] and not followed up on.

shoot-kill-win
02-21-2007, 04:21 PM
Stingray-65:I also found it interesting that in recent years it has come to light that the U.S. fired the 1st shot at Pearl Harbor, sinking a Japanese sub. When this happened & it was reported, they were told to cease fire, that they were shooting at whales.



The commcander of the destroyer reported shooting at a sub but not that he sunk it, and I believe he did not report the exact location but just outside of harbor, I do not recall any reports of a cease fire because of whales, where did you hear that I would really like to know because I have not, it would be really funny if that was true.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 05:10 PM
That ship was U.S.S. Ward. Her commander, Outerbridge, logged attacking a submarine contact at the same time as the Opana radar screen was reporting its sighting of inbound planes, which were assumed to be B-17's. At 07:03 he logged "established sound contact on enemy submarine" and at 07:06 logged, "sighted black oil bubble 300 yards astern."

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 05:25 PM
Ward reported its attack on a suspected sub operating in the defensive area at 06:53. This was early enough warning, if acted upon, to have put the Fleet and Army on full alert. This was 62 minutes before the first bomb fell. Maybe not enough warning to get the ships out of the harbour, but perhaps enough to get the planes up in the air and the ships AA guns prepared.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 06:52 PM
The coming release of SH4 and this discussion thread have got me so excited, I have just popped my Tora Tora Tora DVD into the player. I'm watching it now on widescreen TV. Man, that opening sequence with all those Japanese sailors all spiffed up and the planes flying over the flagship are stirring me up. What a great film.

Edit: I make the common mistake of crediting Toshiro Mifune as Yamamoto in TTT. Yamamoto was portrayed by Soh Yamamura. Mifune played Yamamoto in Midway.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 07:01 PM
While doing some online research, I found this site and thought you guys might like it:

Tora! Tora! Tora! (http://www.toratoratora.com/)

These guys do air show re-enactments of the Pearl Harbor attack. I'd love to see this in person.

Kaleun1961
02-21-2007, 07:09 PM
On the subject of the movie, I thought you might enjoy this movie review:

TTT Review (http://www.reelviews.net/movies/t/tora.html)

There is a new generation of cyber-sub-skippers joining all the time. Some of them may have not yet seen this classic film. I'd really recommend they see it.

tambor198
02-21-2007, 07:35 PM
I'm going from memory here so please forgive me if I make a mistake.


The timing of the Pearl Harbor attack was screwed up by the Japanese ambassadors in Washington D.C. The ambassadors were to present Secretary Hull a list of demands that the Japanese deemed critical to continue the ongoing peace negotiations between the US and Japan, if those demands were not met than a state of war would exist between Japan and the US. The US had pretty much broken the Japanese diplomatic codes and had about two-thirds of the 25 part message that the Japanese ambassador was to deliver th Secretary Hull in their hands already. The person in charge of decoding the final message had difficulties which delayed the Japanese ambassador in giving the US Japan's message. The Japanese had planned the Pearl Harbor attack to the split second with the Japanese ambassador delivering Japan's ultimatum to the US, before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor began. This did not happen because of the delay in the decoding. So Japan's ultimatum to the US was delivered after the attack began.

The American code-breakers had deciphered many of the Japanese codes including some of the Naval codes. As December 7th approached the Japanese started sending out false messages to make the Americans think that the Japanese carriers were somewhere else. Then the Americans lost all trace of the carriers just before the Kido Butai left to make the trip across the northern Pacific on their way to Hawaii. Needless to say, the Japanese severely miscalculated the effect that the bombing of Pearl Harbor would have on the US. Instead of weakening the US resolve it strengthened it to the utmost.



tambor198 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

wm4668
02-22-2007, 09:57 AM
I always found it interesting that the Japanese followed a British example (the attack on Taranto, Nov 40) in their attack on Pearl Harbour - see this link

Taranto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto)

Minoos
02-22-2007, 09:59 AM
Just found a link to national geographic multimedia animation on the attack.

http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/ax/base.swf

A full text time line is available from the main page.
http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/

Realjambo
02-22-2007, 10:14 AM
Excellent Links Minoos! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ottoramsaig
02-22-2007, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
While doing some online research, I found this site and thought you guys might like it:

Tora! Tora! Tora! (http://www.toratoratora.com/)

These guys do air show re-enactments of the Pearl Harbor attack. I'd love to see this in person. I saw this air show at Lakehurst Naval Air in New Jesey, it was awesome, they even have a lone P40 attempting to takeoff and engage the nice collection of zero's. Great effects from exploding oil drums, awesome!

Celeon999
02-22-2007, 11:09 AM
Celeon has Tora Tora Tora and Midway on DVD.

OF COURSE http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


And yes i agree that opening sequence of TTT is one of the best ive ever seen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Especially with all the crewman and officers standing ready on deck for the arrival of Yamamoto.

It is so silent there you could hear a needle falling on the deck.

Celeon999
02-22-2007, 11:48 AM
Another thing:


I know that in the original audio version all japanese spoke japanese while in the german language adaption all japanese were dubbed in german.

My DVD version has the original english subtitles too. They were left in for copyright reasons and as they were part of the original film material.

Interestingly is that the content of the english subtitles is often completely different to what the german dubbing says.

The dubbing is also more complete. (You cant put everything they say into the subtitles as there is not enough time and space for that)

So it is not just different but they also say much more than is included in the subtitles.

I wonder which translation is the more correct ?


An example :

When the airplanes depart for Pearl Harbour , the admiral and his officers look down to the flight deck :

English subtitle :

Officer : "The men are in good spirits sir. They are eager to go."

Admiral "Yes...they are eager because they do not know the taste of battle."


German version :

Officer : "Unmatchable is this spirit, resolute to fight and ready to die"

Admiral : "(no yes from him he just nods), I envy this youth, they all have faith in the success of the undertaking"

Bucketlung
02-22-2007, 12:22 PM
The Japanese had bad luck with American carriers. The carriers were in the wrong place on Dec 7th and at the Battle of Midway.

Kaleun1961
02-22-2007, 02:50 PM
The Japanese had every right to expect the carriers to be in PH that Sunday. They had been observing the movement patterns of the Fleet for months prior to the attack. The carriers being away from Pearl on the day of the attack was a break from the pattern. I have no doubt that had they been in port, all of them would have been destroyed.

As the saying goes, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. If your victory depends upon the enemy behaving predictably, then you are in a bad way. The Japanese expected the Americans to react to their feint at Alaska. Nimitz ignored that, knowing in advance that Midway was the real target. Thus the Japanese were not expecting the carriers to be where they actually were. Also, they were expecting only two carriers, but the Americans pathced up one of their battered carriers and got her into action. I think it was Yorktown?

Stingray-65
02-22-2007, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by shoot-kill-win:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Stingray-65:I also found it interesting that in recent years it has come to light that the U.S. fired the 1st shot at Pearl Harbor, sinking a Japanese sub. When this happened & it was reported, they were told to cease fire, that they were shooting at whales.

The commcander of the destroyer reported shooting at a sub but not that he sunk it, and I believe he did not report the exact location but just outside of harbor, I do not recall any reports of a cease fire because of whales, where did you hear that I would really like to know because I have not, it would be really funny if that was true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I 1st read of this in a newspaper article a few years ago. A short time later, I saw a documentary either on the Discovery Channel or on the History Channel about it. The documentary included the search to locate the sunken sub. There were also some of the former crewman of the USS Ward who manned the gun that sunk it. They were elated when the sub was found. In the interview with these men, one of them said that they were told that they were shooting at whales & that was also the rumor about them that circulated afterwards. (I remember this because I laughed so hard.) They were happy to finally have undeniable proof as to them actually haven sighted & sunken a Japanese sub. I could be mistaken about the order to cease fire though. I'd have to see that documentary again to be sure.

It was quite a sight to see... that sub laying on the ocean floor with a huge hole right through the center of the conning tower, exactly where those men claimed they had placed the initial round.


@K61
You, Sir, are the definition of a gentleman & a scholar. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Kaleun1961
02-22-2007, 03:57 PM
There is an obituary in the April, 2007 edition of "World War II" for one of the pilots who got into the air at Pearl Harbor. Kenneth Taylor died Nov. 26, 2006 in Tucson, at the age of 86. Taylor was a P-40 pilot in the 47th Pursuit Squadron. Awoken by the sound of falling bombs, he and Lieutenant George Welch hopped into a car and drove 10 miles to Haleiwa airfield. Each of them shot down a Japanese bomber, although nobody knows for certain which scored first. They each flew two sorties that day; Taylor shot down 2 and Welch shot down 4. On his second sortie, Taylor was had a bullet pass through his arm and fragments went into his leg. Taylor served throughout the Pacific campaign and retired from the U.S. Air Force in 1967, having attained the rank of Colonel and from the Alaska Air National Guard in 1971 as a Brigadier General. He received a Distinguished Service Cross for his actions on Dec. 7, 1941, as well as earning the Distinguished Service Medal, Legion of Merit, Air Medal and Purple Heart.

Sadly, another of the Great Generation has passed away. Although WW2 veterans are passing away at the estimated rate [in the U.S.] at the rate of about 2,000 a day, if I recall correctly. Amazingly, there are still WW1 veterans alive. Canada's third surviving WW1 veteran passed away yesterday at the age of 107. Two surviving veterans remain. There are plans for a state funeral when the last WW1 veteran passes on, to honour those who served Canada during WW1. The significance of WW1 to Canada was that war proved us as a nation; prior to which we were still regarded as one of Englands "children." Because of the contribution we made to victory, Canada won respect as an independant nation, fielding its own Army.

Kaleun1961
02-22-2007, 03:59 PM
Stingray, thank you for your compliment. I blush.

VikingGrandad
02-22-2007, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
The Japanese expected the Americans to react to their feint at Alaska.
I hadn't heard about that before. What did the Japanese do in Alaska?

Kaleun1961
02-22-2007, 04:11 PM
They made some small landings at Attu and Kiska, islands off the coast of Alaska. The landings were intended to draw the American carriers north, but as I said, Nimitz didn't bite, due to intelligence which told him Midway was the real target. He did the best he could with what he had and set an ambush for Nagumo, which worked.

Stingray-65
02-22-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
Stingray, thank you for your compliment. I blush.

YW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif You just never cease to amaze, impress & educate me. You are a wealth of knowledge & your conduct is to be admired.