New to this civilian thing, what would you do...

[huggy87]

After ten years as a military officer I'm 6 months into a new civilian job overseas. Good job, good company, great benefits and pay. Problem is, my peers get twice as much vacation as I do for the same amount of work. Or rather, it wasn't a problem until I found out about it. You know, the whole it's not that you have it bad it's that your neighbor has it better kind of thing.

It wasn't a let's screw the new guy out of vacation thing (I get the same as all the other new hires in my company). It was that the employees in our overseas location were here when the contract changed hands two years ago and they were allowed to keep their good deal vacation plan.

At first it didn't bother me when I learned that they get twice the vacation as me. I barely paid much mind to it. I figured I knew what I was getting when I signed the contract, good for them, tough luck for me. But now, as I look at 2009's vacation schedule and see that my peers, who do the exact same job as me, are getting 4-5 weeks in the states while I will only get 2-3 I am bothered.

So what do you think: suck it up even though it bothers me, use it as leverage at the next raise negotiation, demand the same. Thoughts? Experiences?

[Breeze147]

Suck it up and use it in negotiations for the next contract.

Please don't be like the retired Navy Chiefs we have around here who start every sentence with "I spent 27 years in the Navy". Sorry, doesn't mean crap, you have 1 year here and I have 30.

[huggy87]

That would annoy me too. I bring up my military experience not as a virtue or through some sense of entitlement, merely to illustrate my lack of experience in this area.

[blairgowrie]

I don't think you have much choice huggy87. I think you are going to have to live with it for the time being. If all other aspects of your new job are good, then stay with your present company and try to negotiate more vacation whenever you can; otherwise start looking for another job. Sometimes it is better not to know what benefits others in your company enjoy. You could argue "it's not fair" but I am afraid nobody is going to listen too hard.

[JG52Uther]

Unfortunately soon people will just be grateful to have a job.Get used to the way things are done in civvie street,as getting screwed is a regular occurance!

[SeaFireLIV]

Originally posted by Breeze147:
Suck it up and use it in negotiations for the next contract.

Please don't be like the retired Navy Chiefs we have around here who start every sentence with "I spent 27 years in the Navy". Sorry, doesn't mean crap, you have 1 year here and I have 30.


Agreed. Though I have never been in the military. Don`t blow a good thing due to jealousy, especially since you have a nice job. In time, you may get further rewards by showing patience.

[leitmotiv]

Good luck, H. You can see why among businessmen most of the screwing they do is on paper. I have a friend who retired as a Commander in the USN. In the Navy he ran hospitals---in civvy street he is being forced to do grueling hours as a pharmacist by a bottom-lining boss. There is no justice.

[ploughman]

The problem, as I see it, is not that they get more vacation time, but that it ****es you off. Focus on it not ****ing you off.

Of course mention it next time your contract's up for renewal, a happy ship is an efficient ship and all that and your boss will hopefully want you to be happy in your position, stuff like this can be very divisive, you've got to wonder at a policy that allows this sort of iniquity.

[Outlaw---]

I hate to say it but welcome to the civvy world! Put up with it though and it will almost certainly pay off. If not with that company than with someone else. When I joined the engineering world I basically became a secretary b/c I could type fast. None of the technical stuff came my way b/c I was too busy entering data. Ironically, the guy that ran the department back then may be coming back to Houston and he just might end up WORKING FOR ME if he's not careful.

--Outlaw.

[LW_lcarp]

Thats the way things work in the civilian world. You start out on the bottom of the totem pole. Lower wage little to no vacation. You then get higher pay and more vacation as the years go by. So ten years from now some guy is going to get his undies in a bundle cause you have 4 weeks vacation and he only has two.

Or like mentioned above you can find a new job and be in the same predicament.

[DuxCorvan]

Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
Thats the way things work in the civilian world. You start out on the bottom of the totem pole. Lower wage little to no vacation. You then [hope to] get higher pay and more vacation [but all stays the same or worse] as the years go by. So ten years from now some [well-connected or a$s-kissing] guy is going to get his [promotion and 4 weeks vacation, while you get your] undies in a bundle cause you [know you should] have 4 weeks vacation and he only has two [months in the company].


Corrected. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[SeaFireLIV]

Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
Thats the way things work in the civilian world. You start out on the bottom of the totem pole. Lower wage little to no vacation. You then [hope to] get higher pay and more vacation [but all stays the same or worse] as the years go by. So ten years from now some [well-relationed or a$s-kissing] guy is going to get his [promotion and 4 weeks vacation, while you get your] undies in a bundle cause you [know you should] have 4 weeks vacation and he only has two [months in the company].


Corrected. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. That`s too true! I`ve had it happen.

[JG52Uther]

Tell 'em to 'get stuffed' and retire.Worked for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[jarink]

Originally posted by huggy87:
use it as leverage at the next raise negotiation

Preface your arguments for a better raise with something like: "While half the office was on vacation, I did..." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

I've been at my current job for 11 years. I get 12 days vac per year, plus 4 days worth of "discretionary time". Sometimes I really miss the 30 days leave per year I got in the military.

[ploughman]

You get 12 days? Wow, I got 25 days + public holidays in my first real job after I left college, now, of course, I work for myself and therefore everyday's a holiday (ie; no holidays).

[DuxCorvan]

I'm a public servant: sh*tty salaries, lots of free time.

I have 22 work-days vac per year -that's around four weeks- plus 8 days for discretionary time. National/local holidays apart.

Just mornings, Mon to Fri, 7 hours and a half (7:30 AM to 15:00 PM).

[JG52Uther]

For 20 years I worked a 12 hour night shift,avg 60-70 hours a week,and had about a month off a year.
Since 2003 when I turned 38 I have 365 days off a year.
I know which one I prefer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[b2spirita]

How did you manae that uther?!?!?!

[JG52Uther]

Lots of hours when I was working,+ a large redundancy package,+ some luck.
Not loaded,but I live on the same money now as when I worked 60 hours.Still not really enough though with the way things keep going up!

[VW-IceFire]

Huggy...I guess its a matter of...do the other people who are getting more vacation time have a reason for having more? I'm not sure if I quite understood the explanation but if its a matter of time spent at the company then its not unusual to start at the bottom and work up - in my limited experience.

[LW_lcarp]

Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
Thats the way things work in the civilian world. You start out on the bottom of the totem pole. Lower wage little to no vacation. You then [hope to] get higher pay and more vacation [but all stays the same or worse] as the years go by. So ten years from now some [well-relationed or a$s-kissing] guy is going to get his [promotion and 4 weeks vacation, while you get your] undies in a bundle cause you [know you should] have 4 weeks vacation and he only has two [months in the company].


Corrected. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. That`s too true! I`ve had it happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we all have at one time or another.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif But I have to say thats about right.

[Jambock_Dolfo]

Maybe look for a new job?

Seriously, not every job is to everyone's liking. Some have high pay but lousy vacation/days off schedule, maybe no freedom to move around, or might have to live in the desert, something like that.
Some companies offer less pay but you have the freedom to move around. Free/discount ticket agreements, block days off, home/annual leaves. You get the idea.

If you look around enough you should find a position that suits your priorities.

Other than that, just take it as it is, try to look at the bright side of things. If the bright side is not good enough to compensate for the bad things... well, move on.

Like Calvin said:"It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!"


-dolfo

[RAF_OldBuzzard]

Suck it up.

Look at it in military terms. Even tho you have the same GRADE, they have more time-in-grade, so they do out rank you, just as they would in the military.

While in the military each grade has the same 'perks/benefits', in civvy life more time-in-grade = more 'perks/benefits".

[huggy87]

Thanks for all of the inputs so far.

Just to clarify one point. We are all of the same seniority. My peers have been here three years, I have been here 6 months. However, as far as vacation accrual goes with my company all employees from 0-4 years are in the same bracket. After 4 years your vacation days goes from 10 to 12. My peers all get 20 days while I get 10 despite that we are in the same "newbie" bracket.

They get 20 days because that was what the contract read up until 2 years ago. The only thing better about the old contract was that there were more vacation days. When the contract changed they should have taken the good with the bad, but they let them keep the 20 days so it didn't seem as as if they were getting screwed by the new contract, despite the 20 days going against the company's policies. This is considered a hardship job and they didn't want to do anything to hurt retention.

Judging by the 3 second open-mouthed trout look my boss gave me when he mentioned the 20 days vacation, and I corrected him that I only get 10 days a year, I would say adding me to the 20 day thing was something that was on his to-do list when I was hired and then fell through the cracks.

It's nothing worth quitting over. It's a good job that would have been better had I never known my peers had it better. It is simply one of those things that bothers you and over time it occasionaly festers into an open wound.

I didn't realize it bothered me until this week. There were two reasons for it coming to a head enough to rant on here. One was the vacation schedule that I already mentioned. Although, one other thought is that every time somebody goes on vacation the other three pilots have to take up their slack. That is 6 extra weeks that I'm covering for them without getting the same in return.

For the other reason, I will have to give you some background info. You have to understand that nothing is easy over here. Despite this being one of the wealthiest countries on Earth they are still very third world in many ways, especially the government and bureacracy. Things that could be accomplished in the states online or with a quick phone call often require multiple visits in person. They keep their populace employed with ridiculously staffed offices that require reams of paperwork for even simple things. Most government offices and many businesses are only open in the morning, the same time we should be at work.

The other day I asked for the morning off so I could get my three kids settled at their first day of school in a foreign land. My peer, who is acting chief pilot and manager while the boss is away, told me to just take a vacation day. It is a fair enough request in the states, but in the states I wouldn't even be needed to get my kids settled. It is only because of this place that the father is needed. I found myself thinking "easy for you to say Mr. 20 Vacation day guy." We could easily use up all of our vacation days just taking care of routine business.

Yesterday, before I made this thread, I told him about the vacation discrepancy. He didn't believe me at first and honestly told me that "it's not right and that I should ask for more money". He is from the same dubious background as myself (ex-military) and his advice didn't stink check with me.

To those of you who advised me not to **** at work, I agree. That's why I'm ****ing/seeking advice here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. If you're still reading, thanks. I think we men tend to bottle stuff up too much until it boils over.

[rnzoli]

Don't let it bother you. From management perspective, a small cut-back in benefits cause a lot of problems, this is the simplest reason behind letting people keep their benefits at the change of company ownership/ change of company procedures.

Having 2 different set of benefits on the same positions also cause tensions, but they are smaller compared to the cut-back. Especially the 2 set of benefits can be worked over time, e.g., fluctuations/replacements over the years etc.

In short, they are in luck, you need to take this calmly, but you should always keep mentioning this imbalance in front of your line manager, that you are in the 10-day category, meaning that other things (less workload, permission to take half days off) should come into your favour in exchange for this.

From a colleague of mine, I heard a similar story: they started up a new company, and had to hire technical people from the competitors. They had to pay them very high due to the risks associated with a start-up. Later on the company stabilized and expanded in a slower rate, and for the slow expansion, they didn't want to pay the premium wages any longer, so the new recruits, who often did the same job as the old ones, received much less pay. The high salaries of the initial batch of people in the technical department has been a problematic area for almost a decade (!), until the fluctuation/internal transfers/inflation/alternative benefits finally eroded that difference. Cutting back on the initial wages were NOT possible and never seriously considered, the new guys had to live with this on the long run (but not forever!).

[Aaron_GT]

Since 2003 when I turned 38 I have 365 days off a year.

I anticipate that I will be working to at least 70. How on earth idid you manage to retire at 38? It's incredibly unusual.

[Aaron_GT]

Having 2 different set of benefits on the same positions also cause tensions, but they are smaller compared to the cut-back.

Cutting back might lead to the experienced staff moving to other jobs, which might not be good for a company.

[Aaron_GT]

The other day I asked for the morning off so I could get my three kids settled at their first day of school in a foreign land. My peer, who is acting chief pilot and manager while the boss is away, told me to just take a vacation day. It is a fair enough request in the states, but in the states I wouldn't even be needed to get my kids settled. It is only because of this place that the father is needed. I found myself thinking "easy for you to say Mr. 20 Vacation day guy." We could easily use up all of our vacation days just taking care of routine business.

Can you negotiate flexible working at all to help? E.g. afternoon off to help the kids, work a Saturday morning to compensate? Or is there work you could take home for when the kids are in bed to make up time. Negotiate with you other half to make sure it's not a regular thing, just a one off!

[erco415]

Welcome to the glamourous world of corporate aviation! In response to your question, if you can get your vacation bumped up, then do it. But if not, then console yourself that it sounded good to you at the time and if it really bothers you, then start pumping out the resumes and trade up for something that doesn't burn you. Keep in mind that what you've got might, in fact, be pretty good. A job I looked at before I got this one wanted you to wash the airplane, watch the CEO's kids or paint his fence if you weren't flying. And vacation? "We don't really have vacation, we try and take off when the airplane's in maintenance." The place I'm at sounds similar to yours - want personal time? Take a vacation day. No hard time off and if you're not careful then all that vacation time gets eaten up with birthdays anniversaries etc and the vacation pay is 15% of what we normally get per hour. This summer we had our first vacation in seven years with this company. What's worse, we only get paid if we fly, which makes having our biggest customers go bankrupt and lose their four airplanes especially hard. I'm looking to get something else, but the really good jobs, the guys on $80K salary flying 150 hours a year will make you crazy looking for them, those fall in your lap. I've concluded that anything with charter or management in it's name is no place for me to work. I'm looking for a company that's either one-horse, where everyone knows everyone, or one that's big enough that they've started treating pilots like employees. To wit, I asked a friend of mine whose company's flying has grown to the point that they are gone all the time, to ask their management which of their other employees think it's ok to go without a day off now and then? Anyways, best of luck to you! I've looked at some of the ex-pat flying, boy the money can be good, but there is usually a reason for that. Pm me anytime.
Cheers!

[Korolov1986]

I feel your pain, Huggy.

I just started a job last month, with only a degree and a certification to help me out - with no past job experience to fall back on. I had been trying for three months fresh out of college to find something that fell within my job description, and in the end all I could find was a simple tech support job. I graduated at the top of my class, yet the rest of my class all got great high paying jobs with benefits. One of the worst guys in the class got a job over me!

In my job now, the hours suck, the pay sucks, no vacation time, and no benefits! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

On the plus side, this job will give me much needed experience and it's given me better insight into what I'm capable of, so in the future I can demand more money and benefits from employers. There's always a bright side. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[LW_lcarp]

10 days after 6 months! Geez I got 5 days after 1 year and 10 days after 5. Been 7 years in the same company and have 12 days of vacation. And im the lead person of my department and have to cover for everyone when on vaca and out sick.

Guess im going to close this thread and not open it again.

[Cajun76]

Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Since 2003 when I turned 38 I have 365 days off a year.

I anticipate that I will be working to at least 70. How on earth idid you manage to retire at 38? It's incredibly unusual. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like he joined the military at 18, 20 years and your done, unless acceptance of higher ranks require a commitment of additional time.

He probably made E-6 or E-7, maybe higher if he wasn't in the slow moving USAF.