1911 pistol updated for 2011

[Jam_Dammer]

The 1911 pistol has already been updated for 2011 (and for 2013, the supposed date setting of GR3)

The redesigns have been in existence for 10 years now.

Please direct your attention to the below web sites, where you will find 1911 pistols that have been reworked and accurized and whos magazine capacities have been increased (18rds in 9mm, 16rds in .40cal, and 14rds in .45cal)

http://www.paraord.com/

http://www.stiguns.com/


Let's update the 1911 pistol for GR3!!

What do you think?

Jam Dammer aka Jam Dam*ner

[jchung]

The STI (a very nice gun) is still a 1911. It just has a double stack magazine, and a cheap polymer frame. IMO no pistol should have a polymer frame. I prefer my guns to be made of all metal.

Para pistols? I'm not even going to get started on those. If you have to have a double stack 1911/2011, go for an STI.

The 1911 has already been updated many times. Have you ever seen a current 1911 vs. an old Colt? Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nowlin, Kimber, Springfield, Ed Brown, and many others have continually updated the 1911 model.

A current 1911 can hardly be compared to an old 1911.

BTW, the only reason the 2011 model was introducted was so that the magazine capacity could be increased for IPSC competitions, etc... Most people that carry a 1911, still go for the tradtional format.

Polymer pistols are lighter, and in a race gun format with high cap mags, they are very accurate and fun to shoot. However, for a service 1911 the choice is always an all metal frame over polymer.

Polymer guns are cheap and not very good in comparison to a good 1911. I have owned and shot many HK, Glock, STI, etc... and they are all very inferior in quality, and accuracy when compared to a 1911. I have sold all of my polymer pistols, and now only have one custom Glock. The only reason I have kept this one is because it has been out of production for a few years (although Glock is planning one last limited production of 1,500 guns this year, and then it will be gone forever).

If you want the best 1911, go with a Les Baer, or Nowlin, as they will both guarantee 1" moa at 50 yards! Yes that is correct, 50 yards!

[Jam_Dammer]

Jchung,

Ahhhh a man who knows his weapons - appreciate your comments.

Reply with your "Yes" or "No" vote on having hi-cap 1911 pistols in GR3.

You said "no pistol should have a polymer frame" - does this mean you also don't approve of the XM8 rifle as well??

Please don't dismiss polymer framed firearms so quickly, they *are* the current state of the art design in pistol or rifle models.

Para pistols are all steel or aluminum framed and do conform to your need for an all-metal pistol. Para pistols are "good" quality, while the STI are "excellent" in comparison, but the Para beats STI in price by a 2 to 1 margin, which would be a large factor, should the two pistols compete in any future hi-cap, single action, military special forces trials.

Hi cap 1911s were not just born from the competition world. Para, a manufacturer of paint ball guns in Canada in the 1980's, saw the market opening for double stack 1911s. They were first to the punch in the hi-cap 1911 world, when they only offered their 1911 hi-cap frame kits for gunsmiths to take the slide from a single stack 45 1911 and create a complete pistol. Today, I think they offer over two dozen different, complete hi-cap pistols.

I'd take a hi-cap Para or STI over a 7-shot 1911 any day of the week...especially if I was a Ghost Team member in 2013, going to rescue the President.

BTW - which model/caliber of Glock is getting a last limited run of 1,500?

Jam

[jchung]

The Glock getting a last limited run of 1,500 is a model 24 .40S&W. Here is mine. 9" slide with a 6" barrel.

http://www.picturevillage.com/photo/data/bfba8a0b8904bb41f21794e7c676a06a/full_20637_p267839.jpg

BTW, check out my post again, the remark I made about the high caps being born out of competitive shooting was in regard to the 2011 models.

The Para... I'm not sure that I would feel comfortable with a Para as a carry pistol, as it often jams and is very unreliable. I know that STI makes high cap mags that are supposed to make the gun more reliable, but the mag is not really the cause of the problems.

For a secondary weapon, I'll take a Les Baer with a 1" moa guarantee at 50 yards. I'm not sure that a high cap is necessary for a secondary. It is only for when your M16 (primary weapon) is out and there is an enemy combatant right before you, so that you don't have time to reload. If there is more than one enemy "on you" you are probably screwed anyway, so what difference would it make if you died with more bullets in your pistol?

I don't have a problem with polymer when it is applied properly, but understand that on a pistol deformation for any reason can cause problems with magazine ingress and egress. This is why I like the nice heavy handle of the 1911 with a thick frame. Check out my post again, I was refering to polymer pistols, not firearms in general.

The XM8 is also having issues with "meltdown" in field tests, so there may be significant changes to the rifle before it sees production. Not to mention that the M468 may be the choice over the XM8.

Polymer is not really the best material for all applications, and even HK has limited use of polymer on their latest rifle called the 416.

Nice to shoot the breeze with a fellow gun buff. I don't mean any offense if you own a Para, or STI. Often the guns I talk about are guns that I also have owned, so I'm not trying to say what I have is better than what others have.

I'll even criticise firearms that I own, as some of my favorites are not exactly the best guns in the world.

[Jam_Dammer]

Nice Glock there. Yeah, I thought the longslide models 17L and 24L were already discontinued a couple years ago, so the special run is indeed "special."

Kinda makes me think GR3 should add the Glock 34 (9mm) and Glock 35 (.40) for this "Future Warrior" set game.

The Para guns are good guns now and days - not so good reliability wise in their early days - they're good-to-go even for carry/defense today.

I own a Kimber 45 and a Para P18 LDA 9mm, and I know a half-dozen other guys that own each pistol too and neither of them jam hardly at all, they're both reliable.

The 8-shot Les Baer 45 is great to 50 yards and beyond, I agree, but given the choice, I'd take a 14-shot Para 45 for combat.

The hicap STI or Para can do everything the old single stack 1911 can do, for twice as long, which is good, given the mass-hourde tactics of the enemy ai. Remember Somolia and the the CMH medal winners?

I don't intend to die in the game with more bullets in my pistol. Should a bunch of bad guys be "on me" I'll be taking twice as many of them down with me, and so I intend to "check out" with empty pouches and be at slide lock.

No offense taken. How could I be hurt by a guy who shoots a Tupperware pistol?? :-)

[jchung]

Lol. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It has been years since I have shot any tupperware pistols. I currently have a Wilson Combat CQB, and a Custom Kimber. Unfortunately, despite all the money I spent on the Wilson, the Kimber is actually just as nice.

My first gun was a Glock 17, then an HK USP .40, then a Glock 21, then an HK USP.45, and lastly the Glock 24 I posted. I have sold all of them, except for the 24, but I'm actually considering selling even that one.

There is a guy I shoot with, and we both used to be into Wilson Combat and Ed Brown 1911s until we started reading the results of many 1911 shoot outs, and I have to say that I was surprised with the results. They measured things like accuracy when shot from a vice, so much of the data was not based on personal preference.

The final tally was that Les Baer, and Nowlin came in first, then Custom Kimber models, and Wilson Combat, then Ed Brown, STI, Sig, Rock River (yes, Rock River!), and then many others I can't remember.

I was not surprised with the Kimber, since I really like mine as much as my Wilson. However, knowing what I know now, I would never have bought the Wilson. With the money I spent on it, I would have bought a Les Baer. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

What kind of Kimber do you shoot?

As far as the game goes, I really don't care who the manufacturer of a gun is as none of the guns will jam in the game anyway. However, in real combat, the manufacturer certainly matters.

[Jam_Dammer]

I own the Kimber Custom Target 45. I had the frame checkered 30lpi at Kimber, added a arched magwell, videcki trigger and had the frame hard-chromed and the slide reblued. It's a nice two-tone blue-silver finish and trigger breaks at about 3.5lbs. Sorry, don't have a digital camera.

DVC,
Jam

[jchung]

Sweet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif My Custom Kimber (a Super Match II) is pretty much the way it came from the factory. The only thing I did was add a set of Trijicon night sights.

Do you shoot any shotguns or rifles?

[shiftydano]

Originally posted by jchung:
The STI (a very nice gun) is still a 1911. It just has a double stack magazine, and a cheap polymer frame. IMO no pistol should have a polymer frame. I prefer my guns to be made of all metal.

Para pistols? I'm not even going to get started on those. If you have to have a double stack 1911/2011, go for an STI.

The 1911 has already been updated many times. Have you ever seen a current 1911 vs. an old Colt? Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nowlin, Kimber, Springfield, Ed Brown, and many others have continually updated the 1911 model.

A current 1911 can hardly be compared to an old 1911.

BTW, the only reason the 2011 model was introducted was so that the magazine capacity could be increased for IPSC competitions, etc... Most people that carry a 1911, still go for the tradtional format.

Polymer pistols are lighter, and in a race gun format with high cap mags, they are very accurate and fun to shoot. However, for a service 1911 the choice is always an all metal frame over polymer.

Polymer guns are cheap and not very good in comparison to a good 1911. I have owned and shot many HK, Glock, STI, etc... and they are all very inferior in quality, and accuracy when compared to a 1911. I have sold all of my polymer pistols, and now only have one custom Glock. The only reason I have kept this one is because it has been out of production for a few years (although Glock is planning one last limited production of 1,500 guns this year, and then it will be gone forever).

If you want the best 1911, go with a Les Baer, or Nowlin, as they will both guarantee 1" moa at 50 yards! Yes that is correct, 50 yards!

a para ord is a decent gun but yes id go with something different like a kimber(the best) with a hi-cap magazine or maybe they should put in a usp 45 or mk23 socom.

[jchung]

Originally posted by shiftydano:
a para ord is a decent gun but yes id go with something different like a kimber(the best) with a hi-cap magazine or maybe they should put in a usp 45 or mk23 socom.

I used to have two USPs and they both didn't een come close to comparing to a Les Baer, Nowlin, or even my Kimber. HK pistols may be decent for polymer guns, but ultimately they are not all that great.

BTW, Kimber's hicaps have cheap polymer frames, just like HKs, which is why I bought a Super Match II.

Les Baer and Nowlin offer 1.5" or less at 50 yards, and no manufacturer of polymer guns has ever offered anything even similar to that to date.

HK pistols may be good for an agency to buy a whole bunch of them at a cheap price, but true accuracy they don't even come close to a good 1911.

[Jam_Dammer]

shiftydano: "...or maybe they should put in a HK USP 45 or MK23 SOCOM."

I'll second the call for adding HK 45s to GR3, especially the MK23 SOCOM - I believe our special forces pretty much spec'd out every detail of that pistol and its sound supressor.

Super accurate 1911 pistols are nice and VERY expensive, but how would they work under battlefield conditions (dust, sand, dirt, mud, etc)?

The Glock 45 would also make a nice addition to the game (13+1 rounds capacity).

-Jam

[jchung]

Originally posted by Jam_Dammer:
Super accurate 1911 pistols are nice and VERY expensive, but how would they work under battlefield conditions (dust, sand, dirt, mud, etc)?

The Glock 45 would also make a nice addition to the game (13+1 rounds capacity).

-Jam

1911 pistols actually fair quite well in dust, dirt, and mud. Even in ISPC competitions you are running through a generally very dusty course.

Not to mention the fact that 1911s were in service long before HK even existed.

Currently cost is the big issue, as a good Nowlin or Les Baer will run you anywhere from $2,500-$4,000+. The military can get an HK for a few hundred a piece. There is no way that the military would spend that much on a sidearm.

Look at the current M16. It jams and the 5.56mm round has been far less lethal than it should be (Reports of many problems downing enemies in Vietnam, Somolia, Afghanistan, and now Iraq), but cost of replacing all of the guns and retooling for new ammo is a major issue.

There is a good replacement already in the M468, it has a heavier bolt assembly, so it does not jam like the M16, and the 6.8mm ammo can down an enemy with 1-2 shots, unlike the 5.56mm witch is using anywhere from 3-5 in CQB in order to make sure that an enemy is down and out. The M468 can even use the current recievers, but even so the expense is still a concern.

Cost is the major issue, not reliability, otherwise all sidearms would probably be a good'ol 1911. Wilson Combat 1911 pistols have shown to be able to withstand extreme conditions and a ton of abuse.

[Prozac360]

has any one herd of the Marines complaining about their m16a4 yet?

m16 isnt a bad design ... i think over the past 10 years it has seen a huge improvment from the originals.

Id say that it couldbe improved upon even more with some slight modifications to make field stripping easier it will do quiet well
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jam_Dammer]

Prozac - where's the rear sight on your AR15/M16 in your signature pic?

Any Marine issued with the weapon you've pictured would be complaining immediately.


-Jam

[Prozac360]

Its an m4 with a flat top ( rail system to quickly adapt sights )

you can put on detachable carry handel/ iron sights .. back up iron sights and weapon scopes / sights...

the same model rendered in 2 versions http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7259/m45gw.jpg

this m4 has most all SOPMOD parts made for it as well i just dont feel like putting them all into one scene to render them.

it has also been put into GR PC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[jchung]

Originally posted by Prozac360:
has any one herd of the Marines complaining about their m16a4 yet?

m16 isnt a bad design ... i think over the past 10 years it has seen a huge improvment from the originals.

Id say that it couldbe improved upon even more with some slight modifications to make field stripping easier it will do quiet well
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Unfortunately the M16 is not the best rifle for combat. The small light bolt assembly is prone to jam, it easily overheats, and the 5.56mm round is not very lethal.

Yes, I know that the military has gone up from a 55grain to the current 62grain bullet, but the round does not tumble readily as advertised, and it is just simply too light.

I like the M16/M4 series of guns, but there are many flaws that need to be addressed. This is why the M468 would be the perfect combat rifle. The 6.8mm 115grain bullet can reliably take down an enemy soldier in 1-2 shots, whereas the 5.56mm has often required more than 3 shots (Reports from Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan, and now Iraq), the bolt assembly is much heavier and does not jam (much like the AR10), and it is not prone to overheat.

[Prozac360]

i like the 6.8mm stuff too.