DRM is it really that bad? [Archive]

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grimgard

02-09-2010, 11:35 AM

I never understood the fear and panic DRM causes. I have plenty of games that use DRM for copy right protection and never had a single problem with any of them.

I do have a problem with people who pirate games, file share, use hacked CD keys, and basically cheat in any and every way they can.

If you are all so worked up about DRM then you should be angry with people who steal from game companies. If there were not so many thief’s out there then there would be no need for DRM. It's a sad sign of our society.

It's like saying I do not like the police because they hold me accountable for my actions, make me obey laws, and punish me when I break them.

If there were no people breaking laws then we would not need the police, and the same thing goes for DRM.

Wolfvram_2nd

02-09-2010, 12:14 PM

The problem is not the use of DRM, but the use of this particular DRM that requires a permenant internet connection for a single player game.

Digital Rights Management in and of itself is not an evil thing, however the methods that some companies use can be distinctly consumer-unfriendly.

Take for example a certain DRM not liking a certain brand of DVD drive, and the responce from the publisher was "Tough buy a new drive"

Or another one, A customer has bought the game, gets it home only to find it won't run as they have a perfectly legal installation of NERO on the machine.

Or in the case of Spore, you have bought the game, but you can only install it 3 times, with no provision for having to do reinstalls if somethings goes wrong with your game or computer.

Or in this case of DRM lets say I want to take a laptop to a relative's, who doesn't have the internet, and when I have a dull hour or two fire up SH5, oh look I can't!

The big problem that people have with the more draconian DRM is being treated like criminals when they aren't.
Which is also a problem the police face to use your anology.
I was pulled over for "Drink Driving" cause I didn't race away from a set of traffic lights. When the officer asked me where I'd been, and I gave him the name of the pub his responce was "Ooh we get a lot of drink drivers from there"
He then proceeded to try and verbally trip me up. He was most peeved when the breathalyser didn't budge off a zero reading. His whole attitude was that I was guilty, and he made this decision before he even saw me!
My feelings for the police took a noticable downturn after this.

grimgard

02-09-2010, 12:26 PM

I agree with your statement but it does not change the fact that companies need some sort of system to stop people from stealing.

If you or anyone else does not like the system (DRM) then you have the choice to not buy the game. I have never had DRM tell me my DVD drive is no good or My copy of Nero is illegal. I am not saying it has never happend to a people but I bet it's not enough to change the way DRM is used to copy right games.

AS I said in my OP it's a sad sign of the times.

The police officer was just doing his job when he pulled you over. Why would you take offense for the officer doing his job and making sure there are no drunk drivers on the street? Would you rather have him not pull people over and let them drive drunk as long as they are not getting caught?

Have a little more respect for the law and give the poeple who put there lives on the line to make sure you live in a safe society a break. God forbid you are pulled over and checked for a DUI. I am sure you would have no problem being checked for a DUI if you or some one you knew was killed by a drunk driver.

DSB007

02-09-2010, 12:46 PM

Your not everyone.
I could not install sh4 on my brand new pc with a brand new samsung cd/dvd rw drive due to this crappy DRM.

Spent 2 thousand dollars building this pc, then the drm screws me..
that's ******ed, just like ubis response of "tough buy another cd drive"
which is "EXACTLY" what they said to us.

You want a deterrent to theft?
Call the police.
Do some <span class="ev_code_RED">Deleted</span> investigating for once and actually try to find these people who hack, track their ip's, have them arrested.

DRM is like instead of trying to find the criminals you just put everyone in jail and call it a day.
Lazy and pathetic I call it.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Deleted</span>

Wolfvram_2nd

02-09-2010, 12:49 PM

I did not say I had a problem being pulled over, the problem I has was the police officer's general attitude towards me, which only got worse when he found I hadn't been doing anything illegal. I had been perfectly polite to him, I just expected the same in return.

In the UK the police can only pull you for if they have grounds to suspect you are doing something illegal. I would actually rather they could just do random stops, but not if they are going to treat innocent people as if they are guilty. We have a clause in our legal system that states you are innocent until proven guilty, but some police treat this as the other way round, and give the rest a bad name. Other dealings I have had with the police have been far better all round. Once after a car crash, and several times when I have had to report something/someone.

Yes the need for DRM is a sign of the times, but it is no good alienating your customer base to the point that you go out of business or you force them to turn to piracy to avoid the anti-piracy measures!

I currently won't be buying SH5 as I am on a very limited bandwidth connection (I have no control over this as I don't pay the ISP) and Ubi can't or won't give me an answer as to how much bandwidth thier DRM needs. I had been looking foward to SH5 prior to the announcement of this DRM, and if I ever get an answer, and it is such that I would be able to play the game without inccuring massive bandwidth charges, I will go out and buy the game.

To put this in light of another media format. If you were to buy a book, would you still do so if someone from the publisher had to undo a lock on the front of the book every time you wanted to read it? And if there was no one available, or you were travelling (i.e. on the train, plane, whatever) it couldn't be done as there would be no one to lock the or unlock the book for you?

Pankratz1980

02-09-2010, 12:53 PM

I've said it once, I'll say it again, just in case the Community Manager who once graced these boards, but disappeared just as quickly stumbles upon my post.

I will have no problems with such a copy protection provided it isn't cracked and a patch removing it is released approximately a year after a game ships.

Pirates quickly crack the DRM = it's ineffective, drop it entirely or immediately release a patch for legitimate users.
DRM makes pirating a nightmare or impossible, but no patches are released = no buy, I refuse to rent Ubisoft's games.

tambor198

02-09-2010, 12:58 PM

<span class="ev_code_RED">@DSB007

I've warned you a number of times about using profanity on these forums. Using asterisks to get around spelling out the words makes no difference. You will stop the profanity right now or face a seven day suspension

Understood!

</span>

BTW, SH4 does not use DRM, get your facts straight.

uniquewave

02-09-2010, 02:04 PM

It is getting really close to being pointless to try to protect your (as a creator) media. With technology it is almost instant and effortless to copy most forms of media; music, video, text. They might as well give up trying to protect the disc sales and make money off of selling related clothing and advertisements like the music and film industries. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Andritsos

02-09-2010, 02:30 PM

Im also immagine the reaction of peole that want assasins creed 2 PC....
I still hope for a patch that realeases it(at leats make it that works on registered Cd key o rsomething like that)
If i had settlers beta that has DRM i wanted to see what happens when i cout my internet cable...

grimgard

02-09-2010, 02:40 PM

Wow people need to relax! This is a game and copy protection were talking about not the end of the world.

I would hate to see how you react in real life.

skullcowboy_tx

02-09-2010, 02:59 PM

I get a kick out of people saying that DRM has never been a problem for them. That's great, glad to hear it. But it is, has and will continue to cause problems for a lot of people. Honest people who bought a product and for whatever reason are now precluded from using that product because of something put in place by the producer of that product.
Not one of those people? Or just not yet. Then we'll ask YOU if it's really that bad...

grimgard

02-09-2010, 04:18 PM

I have a simple solution for you, if you have such a huge problem with DRM then do not buy the game. Problem solved.

skullcowboy_tx

02-09-2010, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by grimgard:
I have a simple solution for you, if you have such a huge problem with DRM then do not buy the game. Problem solved.

Why thank you. I am sure I would never have thought of that myself. At least you didn't tell me to 'stop whining' or some such. Perhaps that comes later?
I'm not going to buy it. Or any other UBI product that requires me to have a persistent internet connection to play a single player game. And I am not going to just sulk off and go away quietly. UBI isn't getting my money and I want them to know why.
ta ta for now and have a GREAT day. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Adlerson

02-09-2010, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by grimgard:
I have a simple solution for you, if you have such a huge problem with DRM then do not buy the game. Problem solved.

For someone who registered today then treat regulars here like this you certainly don't come across as someone who's out to make friends.. It looks more like you're trying to troll, to be honest.

PurpleCity

02-09-2010, 10:59 PM

I agree with your statement but it does not change the fact that companies need some sort of system to stop people from stealing.

DRM is an example of a systemic failure of technology. Instead of solving a problem, a problem is simply externalized. This happens in many industries, piticularly banking. Pin numbers on credit cards, or captcha's on internet forms are examples of externalization. By shifting the problem to the end user, the responsibility is essentially deferred and inherited by the consumer.

DRM does not solve the problem of pirating. It simply proposes a temporary work around. This kind of quick fix is designed to fail.

Ironically, the only people that will be playing a non broken version of SH5 will be pirates.

Wolfvram_2nd

02-10-2010, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by PurpleCity:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I agree with your statement but it does not change the fact that companies need some sort of system to stop people from stealing.

DRM is an example of a systemic failure of technology. Instead of solving a problem, a problem is simply externalized. This happens in many industries, piticularly banking. Pin numbers on credit cards, or captcha's on internet forms are examples of externalization. By shifting the problem to the end user, the responsibility is essentially deferred and inherited by the consumer.

DRM does not solve the problem of pirating. It simply proposes a temporary work around. This kind of quick fix is designed to fail.

Ironically, the only people that will be playing a non broken version of SH5 will be pirates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely!

There is a quote which I think applies to DRM at the moment:
"Any Nation prepared to give up a little liberty to gain a little security will lose both, and deserve neither."

I may have the exact wording a little off, and I can't remember who said it, but I think it's pertinant here.

GertFroebe_neu

02-10-2010, 01:45 AM

Funny! After I said in another thread that I wouldn't care about DRM because I am online 24/7, my internet collapsed. Still no idea why, but I could imagine my frustration if I wouldn't be able to play SH5 in a situation like that.

Shiplord

02-10-2010, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by tambor198:
BTW, SH4 does not use DRM, get your facts straight.

That's wrong, at release it used SecuRom which cause the problems with some DVD drivers and other legal software such NERO, or Process Explorer a utility from Microsoft or in my case the DVD Authoring Software Pinnacle Studio which I need for my freelance business on my PC.

SecuRom was later patched out of SH4.

meco2

02-10-2010, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by grimgard:
I never understood the fear and panic DRM causes. I have plenty of games that use DRM for copy right protection and never had a single problem with any of them.

I do have a problem with people who pirate games, file share, use hacked CD keys, and basically cheat in any and every way they can.

If you are all so worked up about DRM then you should be angry with people who steal from game companies. If there were not so many thief’s out there then there would be no need for DRM. It's a sad sign of our society.

It's like saying I do not like the police because they hold me accountable for my actions, make me obey laws, and punish me when I break them.

If there were no people breaking laws then we would not need the police, and the same thing goes for DRM.

First of all!
The idea to stop piracy is good, the way to do it with DRM is, well good, but there must be a annother way...
Second of all,
I think that mutch (infact, probl. all of it) of what you says is correct and i do agree.
Me to have a problem with people who pirate games, file share, use hacked CD keys, and basically cheat in any and every way they can and break the laws of any kind.
But with DRM, Online every time?
i got time to play the game when its bad weather outside, and when its bad weather outside, there is allmost always a problem with my internet connection. that leads to my playtime will be lost due to technical probs...
Its not fun at all.
So, i rather keep play SH3 and 4 and keep the positive feeling for Ubi than risk the feeling by buying SH5 and maybee, be upset becouse of problems, not with the game itself, but with the connection.
Of course, piracy is a very real problem and it should be taken care of, but always connected by internet?
why not have it open for offline playing most of the time, and, say once week, or month, be forced to get online to UBI and download a new patch that prolonging the posibility for playing the game?
I am no compute freak in that sort of way so i dont know if its possible.
But there must be a way to keep it safe from pirate, and still not requrie or force the player to play the game through a dedicated server on the internet.
So, for now,and until i got a better internetconnection, i choose to not buy the game (but it truly looks nice)

Subsim

02-10-2010, 06:51 PM

shockboy2000

02-11-2010, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by grimgard:

If there were no people breaking laws then we would not need the police, and the same thing goes for DRM.

I dont see any connection between Ubisofts DRM and the police. Its not like we have a 24/7 connection to the police force to ensure each and everyone of us aren't up to something naughty every second of the day...and stopping us from doing anything if that connection is broken (isp/phone line/server issues).

It's just sad that those who travel, have shoddy net connections, are behind armed forces firewalls or whatever .. WILL be forced to acquire the game from alternative sources despite wanting to pay for it. And they will...we're all on this forum because we love SH and would love to play the next installment, yet just 32% say they will purchase it.

I'm all for copyright protection, but not at the expense of legit customers.

PurpleCity

02-11-2010, 11:14 AM

If there were no people breaking laws then we would not need the police, and the same thing goes for DRM.

Your analogy does not fit, a better analogy would be if all citizens were on parole and had to check in to a parole officer daily.

Only the honest people would be checking in, the criminals would be free as is the case with DRM.

Eoweth

02-11-2010, 01:52 PM

DRM has not, will not and will never prevent piracy.

It's only purpose is to convince shareholders a company is "trying to prevent piracy", to hurt "casual pirates" and to screw over paying customers.

I'm lucky enough to have internet connections where I'm gonna play SH5, but think it's a terrible and quite horrible idea to REQUIRE a connection to play the game at all. Especially with no "offline" mode like Steam has (where you connect to verify, then can play any games while offline). It's even worse that if you do have a hiccup of your completely unrelated and non required internet connection that your single player game will pause because Ubi is draconian in it's attempts to playfully swat at pirates.

walkirie

02-11-2010, 02:01 PM

ASAP ASAP http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I need to buy the http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif SILENT HUNTER 5 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Game ASAP

skullcowboy_tx

02-11-2010, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Subsim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by grimgard:
I never understood the fear and panic DRM causes. I have plenty of games that use DRM for copy right protection and never had a single problem with any of them.

I do have a problem with people who pirate games, file share, use hacked CD keys, and basically cheat in any and every way they can.

If you are all so worked up about DRM then you should be angry with people who steal from game companies. If there were not so many thief’s out there then there would be no need for DRM. It's a sad sign of our society.

It's like saying I do not like the police because they hold me accountable for my actions, make me obey laws, and punish me when I break them.

If there were no people breaking laws then we would not need the police, and the same thing goes for DRM.

Oh boy, do I agree! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So let me ask you a question. If we are going to equate copyright infringement with theft (and it is NOT the same thing, but I'll play along), would you be okay with having the police sit in your house with you 24/7 and keep an eye on you waiting for the off chance that you are going to do something unlawful? It's the latest and greatest service offered and will enrich your life experience too. Oh and by the way, you get to pay them to do this.

Shandiir

02-11-2010, 10:30 PM

I am a MORPGer and enjoying playing strategic games when I internet connect is down, happens alot! So my issue with DRM is not that I have to register and patch etc, its purely that I have to be online to play the game. I have another game from Atari that I bought to play single player, but I have to log in to both Steam and Windows Live, hence requires full time internet connection, so when I want to play I cannot if my connection is down. It was my first and last game I bought that required Windows Live to play.

So if Ubi want to make me log in to play their game I wont be buying it! I loved SH4 and was willing to buy the collectors edition of SH5, till I saw DRM online to play. Make it register to play and patch it to keep it going on a monthly thing, then I can live with that, but not every time I wamt to play.

This whole DRM thing has made me pull out my old Strat games to play when I feel like it not when the developer says I can.

SeaFireLIV

02-11-2010, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by GertFroebe_neu:
Funny! After I said in another thread that I wouldn't care about DRM because I am online 24/7, my internet collapsed. Still no idea why, but I could imagine my frustration if I wouldn't be able to play SH5 in a situation like that.

And this is the problem. Nobody thinks or cares about others until it happens to them.

This internet connection thing is bad, bad, bad. I shan`t be buying until it is removed.

Krotos

02-16-2010, 07:49 AM

Yes, DRM is really that bad.

I've bought and played every SH game there is, but there is no way in hell I will spend one red cent on SH5 if it is DRM -- never.

I was very excited about the release of this game right up the the moment I learned that it would be DRM -- my interest in it is now zero. I refuse to be told that I have to be connected to the internet to play a game I purchased. I often play games when I am away from home and unable to connect to the internet; if I cannot do that with a game, it is worthless to me.

SeaFireLIV

02-16-2010, 09:05 AM