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jyc2006
05-16-2006, 03:43 AM

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 03:43 AM

Zamolxis108
05-16-2006, 04:22 AM
You forgot an option that fits me better: I come from a long line of pirates, but I'm a heretic and turned against piracy in the last two years, after I understood the importance of respecting sb else's work.

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 04:34 AM
Aye, 'tis a salty day when an old seadog turns coat on 'is mates. Away with ye and yer whiny 'conscience,' ye priss! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me!

Pitsu
05-16-2006, 04:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jyc2006:
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know that you are miles from sea, in the middle of land rats and kings soldiers are walking around?

Jolly-Joker
05-16-2006, 04:44 AM
What kind of stupid bull is that question?
It's against the law, that's for sure. Now, if you allow excuses for breaking the law (for example because people would decide, it wasn't "bad"), there is no way to stop. Today we pirate game software, tomorrow we plunder companies (earn too much money anyway and are for sure "bad"), and next week we steal our neighbour's car (the chap is "bad"; he had it coming).

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 04:46 AM
QUOTE: "You know that you are miles from sea, in the middle of land rats and kings soldiers are walking around?"

Yargh... 'tis no mistake missy, I'm here giving the Princess my own special brand of 'adventure,' the kind she can't get from ye land-lubbers.

And now... for me dashin' escape http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 04:48 AM
Jolly-Joker,

Don't rush to judgement. This poll is designed to understand where different people are coming from. If you read some of my posts, you would understand where I'm coming from (besides the Princess' bedroom chambers).

So before you make such an antagonistic comment, check out the other posts first. Sheesh.

PS - If you want to join the debate, please post in the other threads, no the poll itself. This poll is reserved for daring tales of pirate debauchery.

Jolly-Joker
05-16-2006, 04:52 AM
Where legal matters are concerned I'd prefer you'd be less cryptic and more to the point. So what IS your point?

Rinpoo
05-16-2006, 04:57 AM
Priacy is indeed bad, if ppl dont buy the games afterwards. In my case I always buy games I like and play. And I think Demos don't show how games really are. Some sort of 5 day trail version or something would do much better.

Ahh yes and about the "News Update: Starforce Removed *Updated*" topic. There was written they are searching for an alternative. Well I got the best copy protection ever: Just use a plain serial key like warcraft or dawn of war.

Is there any Game out there hat hasn't been cracked? It's just a waste of money. Just follow the example The elder Scrolls IV did. Best would be to also to remove that damn CD check it's just annoying. And if ppl want to play online and the most want to, they'll need an original. And without copy protection u can make the game a bit cheaper and more will buy it.

Ydraliskos
05-16-2006, 05:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
What kind of stupid bull is that question?
It's against the law, that's for sure. Now, if you allow excuses for breaking the law (for example because people would decide, it wasn't "bad"), there is no way to stop. Today we pirate game software, tomorrow we plunder companies (earn too much money anyway and are for sure "bad"), and next week we steal our neighbour's car (the chap is "bad"; he had it coming). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

(Disclaimer: I'm still going to buy homam5, but it's one of the few games I'll ever buy. I respect the devs, and I see it as a donation, not a purchase really)

Breaking the law? Surely.

Is that particular law working to my advantage? Hell no, I want to pay for as little as I possibly can and not get caught. So I'll break it in a heartbeat.

It's immoral? Probably.

But I don't aim to be completely moral. I'm good to my friends, ok to my society and the country I live in, but frankly, I couldn't care less about the people I'm hurting, with piracy.
(except the brands their games I buy, but I still do it as a personal donation, not an exchange)

So to sum it up.

It's illegal and immoral yes. But it's unenforcable, and you won't burn in hell if you pirate games.

That's my opinion, and I hope I don't get banned for it, since this thread was exclusively made to discuss the subject

finkellll
05-16-2006, 05:28 AM
u still are being a jerk anyway. i pirate here and there, but for the most part i generally dont. the only time where i dont regret pirating is when i was promised a game/movie to be released on a specific date, and it doesnt come out on the release date.... (final fantasy 7 advent children)

Zamolxis108
05-16-2006, 05:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jyc2006:
Aye, 'tis a salty day when an old seadog turns coat on 'is mates. Away with ye and yer whiny 'conscience,' ye priss! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>People liked (had understanding for) pirates back then, sometimes, because usually they were stealing only from the rich, which were anyway thieves themselves in the first place. Same thing with the romantic story of Robin Hood and his men, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. But that was back then. Now pirates are stilling with NO morals at all from honest companies. Should these companies not protect themselves at all against piracy, they'll go bankrupt, and potentially great software (be that games or not) that some talented minds might have created, would be lost.

Now tell me where's the honor, the pride, the use of software pirates today?

akrav
05-16-2006, 05:37 AM
a poll about pirates and you didnt include ninjas in it??

http://orlyowl.com/piraterly.gif

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 05:39 AM
You're right finkelll,

I couldn't resist giving JJ a hard time for not reading the previous posts. It doesn't excuse my behavior, but I can't stand it when someone leaps to conclusions without reading first.

I'm not going to criticize your behavior... I mean, we've all engaged in piracy at one time or another, but if you would like to participate in the discussion, please check out the threads which I linked to, or the thread titles "Need help for Syvlan Campaign Mission 7," or something like that.

In my other posts, I'm not saying that people who pirate are automatically evil people... what I'm saying is that many people don't realize the costs and harms which piracy imposes on others.

You look at people like Zamaxis and others (including myself), who did frequently pirate at one time but eventually realized how harmful it was.

I created the poll for the purpose of seeing how many people came from different views. Sure, the options are general and cannot by any means represent all perspectives, but they summarized the major arguments which I've heard here and elsewhere.

That said, I hope you're not deterred from discussing any of the related issues with others here.

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 05:42 AM
LOL... Arkav, that's an AWESOME pic. Ninjas are also AWESOME.

Zamolxis, I feel ya. Honor 'tis a difficult thing to come by nowadays, yes indeed. Perhaps, matey, we might win some more converts yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 05:44 AM
JJ, I agree with you. Are you a law student/lawyer also? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Morality and the Law are separate, but where the law fails, morality may still redeem and preserve. Hmmm... I think I'll copyright that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT: JJ, what happened to your post just now? Hmm... maybe I'm seeing things... need more coffee...

Rinpoo
05-16-2006, 06:40 AM
I think it's no use to get emotional over this. Stealing is part of life, even animals steal food from other animals. And to say Priacy is bad or good is also wrong, there is no evil and good in this world. That paricacy harms may be in the most cases, but there are ppl who wont buy games, even if they like them. And they'll always find a way. It's important to make the best out of the situation. Good games will always sell.

Val-Gaav
05-16-2006, 07:32 AM
Generaly I'm against piracy ... but pirates are somehow closer to me then comercial companies .

There should be option in the pool "I'm against piracy but think that all software should be at least partialy free and opened"

Belive it or not but many people (and companies like mandrake) earn money on FOSS (Free open source software) How ? You can download Mandrive Linux for free from net , but u can also buy it (for a little fee if u campare it with MS OS prices) and have a manual and official help ...

I think the same should be with games ... Well maybe a bit diffrent , but lets face it if somebody likes a game he will buy it becouse he wants to support developer ... So good games will always earn money , even with pirates on a ship...


Another good way to fight piracy would be to lower the prices of games (clearly for many people those prices are to high right now)

Jolly-Joker
05-16-2006, 07:35 AM
I deleted the post because the moment I posted it, I saw it became pretty redundant.
Reading some of the posts here it looks like somewhere along the way school and civilization have completely failed. Or do you have an explanation why so many people seem to think the right of the stronger is the only law that counts and that is needed? It's probably because they don't have been on the receiving end. Yet.
Of course that could change; I mean, if some good-humored people decide to do some creative cosmetic surgery with Rinpoo's or Ydraliskos' face, just because, well, it looks to be a cool idea and they'll probably get away with it, things MIGHT look a tad different for them.

We are talking about people who HAVE access to a pc, right? Now, how about those who don't? Shouldn't they liberate one? If the guys with a pc can liberate software, how about the guys that can't afford a pc liberating one? I mean, the software comes for free, right? So that's not fair, isn't it? Come to think of it, why should only be those things for free? Games, Cds, dvds, come on! I mean, I have a car, but let's face it, there are better ones.

The_T_from_Thai
05-16-2006, 07:44 AM
Speaking in the name of former law student --I have left at Junior year because it do not suitable for me anymore-- & a person creating something and found my creation on some sites without my permission --I am Featured Artist at a fansite for The Sims named The Sims Resouce (http://www.thesimsresource.com/artists/The%20T)--,I found piracy is bad as hell --it is against the law and immoral. If the game is good they will buy it after they tried, but it is still wrong. I know that some people in some countries can not afford a copy since it costs an arm & a leg, but that is also not an excuse to against the law. There are diversity in peoples, but the true is still the true --Piracy is bad.

CopyRight Law
http://www.legal-database.com/intellectualproperty.htm



Look! A pirate ship coming! Fire them!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SandroTheMaster
05-16-2006, 08:00 AM
I'm from a country that has piracy as a very strong issue. What can I talk about it? IT DOESN'T HELP AT ALL.

Sure the poor can afford a game for R$ 10,00 or just download it, but by doing that they're dooming themselves to not be able to buy the next generation of videogames and PC upgrades, so they won't be able to play the next games anyway, since you can't make a pirate PC.

All piracy did here was to weaken our economy and increase the prices of nearly EVERYTHING related to games. In the end, we won't be able to even afford a PC.

Penguinslayer
05-16-2006, 08:00 AM
I believe the problematic thing with piracy is how abstract it is to "steal" data via the web. If I download a game from the internet it's not like a gamebox dissapears from the shelves of my local game-store. Since nobody loses any money they didn't have anyway it's hard to look at it as pure "theft" in the traditional sence. Let's say I'm a poor student, and wouldn't dream of buying any of the stuff I download anyway? What's the loss? So it all comes down to a matter of principles, really. I'm not pro piracy, I'm just anti commersial software, everything should be open-source http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Edo_555
05-16-2006, 08:17 AM
Is PIRACY bad?

For stoodent, who can't bought Micro$oft Windows and Word, but without them would be wery hard to graduate University piracy is...
Some soft cost much more.

But it is shame, if something like Heroes V is stolen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif And none who downloads piratic games can't bay they official.

Val-Gaav
05-16-2006, 08:30 AM
@Penguinslayer :

So I see there is another person who thinks like me and votes for :

"I'm against piracy but think that all software should be at least partialy free and opened"

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


@Zam:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Should these companies not protect themselves at all against piracy, they'll go bankrupt, and potentially great software (be that games or not) that some talented minds might have created, would be lost. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only wanted to address that part about great software (not games)

Almost every great software I have seen was free and open source ...
I'm yet to see a great comercial software ... ()

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Edo_555:
Is PIRACY bad?

For stoodent, who can't bought Micro$oft Windows and Word, but without them would be wery hard to graduate University piracy is...
Some soft cost much more.

But it is shame, if something like Heroes V is stolen http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif And none who downloads piratic games can't bay they official. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The truth is : That university should provide this software for student .... This how my university works ...

But from the other side : The same student could use :
GNU/Linux , OpenOffice or Abi word .... or countless other aps ... ODF (open document format) is a standard now ... and even MS plans to implement it in it future office suite (well we will see if it's true :P )

Rinpoo
05-16-2006, 08:36 AM
@Jolly-Joker

Well I don't know what you'r problem with me is but I never said that I support piracay. Perhaps my posts looked like it, but I never intended to make that expression.

What I just wanted to say is that piracy will always be there and there is no way cutting that out. And that it is important to make the best out of the situation.

p.s. And it seems school and civilization have completely failed on you too, since you can't write without insuting other people.

KrisKay
05-16-2006, 08:49 AM
I say it is bad.I've played pirated games mainly because I couldn't afford them which is not an excuse,but i used to say "hey, it's better than not having it". but I got sick of it mainly because pirated games are full of nasty things:crashes,more bugs,stripped content etc.Where I'm from,an original game is quite expensive,but I believe it's worth it and it's right to appreciate this way the devs work.Only thing I hate about original games is the requirement for the cd to be in the drive,thus reducing it's lifetime drastically.I really prefer creating an image and using that instead.

Jolly-Joker
05-16-2006, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rinpoo:
@Jolly-Joker

Well I don't know what you'r problem with me is but I never said that I support piracay. Perhaps my posts looked like it, but I never intended to make that expression.

What I just wanted to say is that piracy will always be there and there is no way cutting that out. And that it is important to make the best out of the situation.

p.s. And it seems school and civilization have completely failed on you too, since you can't write without insuting other people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why, did you feel insulted? Umm, didn't you say this in your post before the last?
"there is no evil and good in this world."
So what IF I would insult you? You said yourself there's no good and evil, so what?
And you said:
"Stealing is part of life"
So what IF I would steal from you? All part of life and neither good nor evil. So what is YOUR problem with ME?

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 09:03 AM
JJ,

Ok, I understand why you deleted that message. I still think it had some good points, but your call http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway, I hope that my other posts clarified things. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow, but keep at it with the discussion... maybe some people will change their minds.

Acheval
05-16-2006, 11:27 AM
Alright, folks, I've been watching this topic, and feel I need to make a statement now:

Regardless of how you (or I) feel about piracy, it is illegal in many of the countries in which Ubisoft operates, especially the United States and the EU. Given this, the jurisdiction of these two bodies governs the policies that Ubsioft enforces with regard to its products and services (these forums included). Discussing piracy in a favorable light could be construed as promotion of the practice. I would be well-within Ubisoft policies to halt all discussion of this topic right here, right now.

Additionally, community members seem to be incapable of remaining polite when debating a topic like piracy, which touches upon both legal and moral issues. Similar to the previous heated discussions about Starforce, if you cannot remain respectful and reasonable in this debate, or if you in other ways break Ubisoft forum rules, I will take a unilateral position and shut down all threads that discuss piracy. If I or the moderators shut a thread down, attempts to re-open it will result in account suspension.

I caution you to think very carefully before you pursue this topic much further, but will allow it as long as it stays under control.

Are we clear?

Justify my faith and forbearance...

jyc2006
05-16-2006, 11:44 AM
Roger that, chief. You heard him peeps, time to take off our pirate costumes and put on our ninja costumes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Akrav, do you have any ninja-parrot pictures? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT: That wasn't meant to mock you in any way, Acheval, in case it may be interpreted that way.

HealingAura
05-16-2006, 11:51 AM
I still don't get why this topic is not in the offtopic forum - this has nothing to do with Heroes of Might and Magic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif. Also, What's the point of having a discussion about stealing games in a forum that belongs to a gaming company? You might as well go to a Toyota forum like TOYOTANATION (http://www.toyotanation.com/) and post there a thread "what do you think about car theft?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Acheval
05-16-2006, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HealingAura:
I still don't get why this topic is not in the offtopic forum - this has nothing to do with Heroes of Might and Magic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A fair point. However, remember when we attempted to send the SF thread that way? We got complaints about polluting an otherwise cheerful and friendly forum with a very serious and nasty debate. I'd rather not add to that particular problem this time, too...

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 12:18 PM
I'm not a big forum poster and I don't like to watch people argue because they have no interest in actually listening to one another and just want to push their opinions which is like watching two dogs bark at each other across a fence. But I have been interested in the rise of piracy having been a long time gamer since Zork *grin* I have downloaded my share of old DOS games and old 80s music. I've also bought more recent games and albums (and been mostly disappointed with those purchases) than I've downloaded. I have no opinion either way and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I have just been thinking a lot about this and wondering if anyone else has thought about any of these things.

I recently read an article on "self help" and one person was talking about how if people were more selfless the world would be better etc. And one person talked about how his theory was akin to communism and how communism failed while capitalism didn't. His simplistic theory being that capitalism focuses on people doing what they feel is best to further themselves versus communism which focuses on people supposedly being selfless and thinking of the community. People are inherantly selfish, was his point and will always do what they need or want to to succeed before thinking of others.

Does the piracy community think it is trying to justify what they do because of the "capitalist" gaming companies who let's say push their games out unfinished in order to make money or whatever else pirates say is done?

I would say I have spent easily $200 on games in one lump sum (preordering or whatever the newest games) that were just ****, or wicked short, or poorly designed or needed a patch before I could even play them etc. So I kind of understand being dismayed at stuff these days.

Games are getting more exspensive, computer requirements are higher, so you need that $175 video card etc. Gamers are investing a lot of money in order to just play the games that they buy. Even the pirates themselves in some cases are buying the games they rip. (the old Robin Hood syndrome) I'm not justifying anything I'm just throwing thoughts out. But this is a capitalist society we live in, with people only thinking of what they want for themselves and striving for it.

Game sales are down? Like music sales? Is it because of piracy? Can this be measured? Is it because of piracy or quality of gaming or expense of gaming?

I know how much work it takes to download a game or find a working copy. I'm familiar with warez and whatnot. I suppose for computer savvy people it's semi easy if you know the places, know how to unrar something, apply a crack or whatever. The average person I don't think this is so easy for. I suppose they could ask their warez capable friends to get them copies but I doubt that happens as often.

The people who can get the games are the people capable of doing so and if they are capable of doing so then arent we talking about the core of gen x and y who are the main money spenders in society now? With their MILLIONS of dollars in openly disposable income? Teens, tweens, and 18 to 25 year olds. Isn't this the same community of gamers and tech savvy people who spend thousands on their computers to keep them cool and worthy of decent LAN parties? How much do these communities spend legitimately? If they didn't spend this kind of money then who would gaming companies be making these games for? Don't the actions of one group dictate the need for better games, better computers, better marketing etc for another group? I think there is a term for this in marketing.

Also stores are closing. Less people going to the mall. As the Internet becomes bigger. Why then are there not more places to buy and download games online? That whole instant gratification is part of that same gen x and y group I'm speaking about also. Why pay for a game, pay for shipping, wait 5 days to get it when all your friends are playing already because they downloaded a copy? Why go out and pay an inflated price at your local gamestop?

These are just things I'm wondering about and how they all connect together. I wonder how these connections have to do with more and more piracy. I wonder about the community that contributes more money to this nations economy than any other in the history of this country being targeted as the ones responsible also for its downfall both on and off the web. It's just interesting to me.

I might also add i'm studying to earn a degree in social psychology so I'm more interested in why people do things and less in the black and white "stealing is bad. piracy is illegal" statements. We all know this but it doesnt change the fact that crimes are still committed. The point is to find out why and maybe that will shed some light on how to make changes on either side.

Zamolxis108
05-16-2006, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Acheval:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HealingAura:
I still don't get why this topic is not in the offtopic forum - this has nothing to do with Heroes of Might and Magic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A fair point. However, remember when we attempted to send the SF thread that way? We got complaints about polluting an otherwise cheerful and friendly forum with a very serious and nasty debate. I'd rather not add to that particular problem this time, too... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Nah... this thread is not as poisoned with hate as that one. But I agree that it's also not the most cheerful. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

akito272927
05-16-2006, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Also stores are closing. Less people going to the mall. As the Internet becomes bigger. Why then are there not more places to buy and download games online? That whole instant gratification is part of that same gen x and y group I'm speaking about also. Why pay for a game, pay for shipping, wait 5 days to get it when all your friends are playing already because they downloaded a copy? Why go out and pay an inflated price at your local gamestop?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

znork
05-16-2006, 12:59 PM
Piracy is bad yes, no debate her. But i have for somtime tried to understand the publisherers of games. I have had the plesuer to debate fabrice on the issue and to put it milldly we dont see eye to eye on the topic. Well ill make this a simpel charge against ubi. In all its efforts and hard work ubi has done one thing aginst pirates and that is to fail! How come that ubisoft dosent stop running in to the wall? you do it time after time?

Its time for ubisoft to start to get real about fighting pirates. Fc you hanve my letter read it again! Its the soulution to piracy!

RamzaBehoulve
05-16-2006, 01:02 PM
I'm not for, nor against piracy.

I just think people without morale wouldn't buy the game either way and I think big companies should stop seeing a pirated copy as a copy lost or not sold. It's just not true and sometimes it's the opposite.

Jolly-Joker
05-16-2006, 01:03 PM
Revenantsoul.
I think, the biggest problem for the younger generations concerning the digital industry is the lost virtue og MAKING A CHOICE.
Whether it's movies, music or games (or anything else for that matter) the 1st worls (especially) is flooded with masses of products. If you go into a shop (or have a look at amazon or any other online shop), how is any one person supposed to have the time to look all the DVDs, listen to all the CDs and play all the games out there?
So the main thing to grasp is, you cannot play, watch and listen all the stuff out there; it's impossible.
Now, quality is something that cannot be produced in unlimited quantities. Most things are ****, 99% is ****. What people are not realizing is, that they have to concentrate on the really cool 1%. The rare CDs you'll listen to in 10 years. The movies you are going to watch twice; the games you'll play at least half a year and enjoy. And that they don't need the rest.
So people must learn again to make a choice. Not listen to the hype, but listen to their brains. Why pirating a copy of something that will very probably be crappy like hell, just because people spent a billion for advertising the stuff and eventually you feel you just have to get a look at it?
It's the way of capitalism to try and raise a need where none is. That has worked too well now.

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 01:05 PM
what I really love is my friend told me he BOUGHT the recent CSI game and he installed it. The game wouldn't run because it detected he had some software on his machine that it didnt like. Now I'm pretty sure that its no business of the game to determine what software is ok to have on your machine and what reason you use it for. If you paid for the game you should be able to play it. He ended up having to use a NOCD crack to PLAY the game he PAID for. That's just ridiculous.

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Revenantsoul.
I think, the biggest problem for the younger generations concerning the digital industry is the lost virtue og MAKING A CHOICE ...
It's the way of capitalism to try and raise a need where none is. That has worked too well now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, well said. And I agree. Instant gratification and wanting everything and anything that is available. But also your point that there is a market out there that pushes and pushes to this generation that they NEED to have everything and anything. You know the joke about the IPOD or whatever that is upgraded a week after that last version is put out. There has always been this brainwashing going on to the money spending generation to get them to buy more and want more ... and maybe thats partly an issue leading to piracy ... is the direct rebelion against that brainwashing. To instead of being lured to spend money and more money to have things, which is just marketing to get kids to buy ****, they are saying they will have their cake and eat it too. They are deciding what they will spend their money on, not the marketing and businesses out there trying to drive commericalism down their throats. That's certainly an interesting theory. Because if you have $1500 for an Alienware machine to play F.E.A.R then why will you not spend $50 more to BUY F.E.A.R ...? Is it because you are broke from upgrading your machine to be able to play it? I doubt people download games because they hate the companies that make them. There's other reasons for why they wont pay. Its not because of lack of money thats for sure. Convenience is certainly the issue. Indulgence also. Does all that disposable income make them decadent? Or is it actually good the picking and choosing. They obviously know what is worth spending OODLES of money on and what isn't. The support of the niche gaming community can make or break a company, its not a small voice.

Good points there Joker! Thanks for commenting on my post also!

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RamzaBehoulve:
I'm not for, nor against piracy.

I just think people without morale wouldn't buy the game either way and I think big companies should stop seeing a pirated copy as a copy lost or not sold. It's just not true and sometimes it's the opposite. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

People without morals aren't automatically pirates. And people with morals aren't automatically saints. No society is that black and white. And there is a code between a lot of communities ... even ones that engage in illegal acts that might surprise you as being strangly moral (within their own structure of rules).

Justice
05-16-2006, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
We are talking about people who HAVE access to a pc, right? Now, how about those who don't? Shouldn't they liberate one? If the guys with a pc can liberate software, how about the guys that can't afford a pc liberating one? I mean, the software comes for free, right? So that's not fair, isn't it? Come to think of it, why should only be those things for free? Games, Cds, dvds, come on! I mean, I have a car, but let's face it, there are better ones. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFE

and

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Acheval:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by HealingAura:
I still don't get why this topic is not in the offtopic forum - this has nothing to do with Heroes of Might and Magic . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


A fair point. However, remember when we attempted to send the SF thread that way? We got complaints about polluting an otherwise cheerful and friendly forum with a very serious and nasty debate. I'd rather not add to that particular problem this time, too... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFE too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif the tavern is gratefull to ya http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


else I pretty much agree with all those who are against piracy and think those who say all is gray and no bad and good are sad representativs of where the world is headin... Does anyone really want a world where no good and no evil is? Where stealing a car and killing it's owner is just as good as helping an old lady to walk over the road http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
Sorry if i'm rude... but I just don't get it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I personally believe that piracy and all other stuff like that just is a sign of how our society will be and where it is going... What is the point in keeping the law when only one ideology called cash survives? When those who really believe in good are being laughed at? Where morality and good deads are the stuff of fairy tales... People are eving starting to demand payment for helping in their childrens classes in school, orchestras, athletics... What kind of society is it that we are getting? Do we really want this society?

Piracy is neither the only sign of this... just think of all the games that are going that way now... The most idealistic and "good" faction in HoMM V seems to be the necromancers... i mean... Comeon! How can the companies expect that their customers will keep the law if they are helping to make it "in" and "cool" to be gray and don't believe in good or evil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

akito272927
05-16-2006, 02:06 PM
what is moral? maybe a guy buy pirated cd, but helps homeless people, and another has money buys a game but he is fasist that think the third reich is the solution to the world....you cant base moral on how much money you have or your intrests....

here you have two kind of people the one that live in a country in good shape and who dont....american or european(some of them) may be able to pay 450 dolares without problem...other cant and they cant even save for that so...if the people that cant buy a game used a download version....its ok for me...is not sale..so no lost for company....the guy that has the money but download well...that is a sale....

legally is wrong, moral depends....plus as said before..alot of LEGAL user stop buying original because of the bad, bad games released....if of your last 10 games 8 sucked...it a good reason to stop buying, companies can not think that they can release **** games for ever ans espect people to buy them......

znork
05-16-2006, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akito272927:
what is moral? maybe a guy buy pirated cd, but helps homeless people, and another has money buys a game but he is fasist that think the third reich is the solution to the world....you cant base moral on how much money you have or your intrests.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A game is not food!

Jolly-Joker
05-16-2006, 02:11 PM
I think, it's even worse, Justice.
It is a matter of convenience. Hypthetically, if people would learn from a big software leak and you could with your pc with some easy clicking get access to bank accounts and transfer big sums... easy as robbing children of their candy, right? A click here, a click there, and bang, one account empty, my account full.
The lesson is, make crime easy and being criminal is a matter of "doing the wise thing". Which is a direct consequence of the things our society proclaims: owning THINGS is what makes you happy.

Red_orbiT_
05-16-2006, 02:15 PM
Actually, it is rather difficult stealing candy from children. There could be parents or kind strangers nearby to give you a beating. And you'll be despised to no end.
Piracy does not make you despised, and it's completely without risks. I'd say it's a fair bit easier than stealing candy from a baby http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Xerx790
05-16-2006, 02:17 PM
In the USA you cannot return software. I have been burned by **** games. Even the demo may look good and still you are stuck. I call those game companies pirates.

So I am forced to peview the game, if I like it, then I will buy it. Only the full version is patchable and such.

If I lived in Europe where you can return the **** games, then I would feel different about it.

Oh, I do use fixed EXE so I can make a backup of my original CD and not have to torture my CD/DVD player with stupid copy protection which the pirates crack anyway (even SF).

Learn from GalCiv II. Also since Star Force did not get the GalCiv II or Nival contract, they leaked the game. If you do not believe me, go read it on the official GalCiv II forum website.

StarForce are bullies.

znork
05-16-2006, 02:18 PM
well jj what the gaming industry is doing is letting it happen withe there feebel atemtes to stop piracy! So well until there are more publisheres like stardok that waeks up en smell the coffy there will be more pirecy. I would take it so long ot actualy give muche of the fault over the gaming industry.

I also still belive piracy is wrong and there is no good excuse for it!

Put sombody at ubi should act to stop piracy for real not withe cp progs!

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I personally believe that piracy and all other stuff like that just is a sign of how our society will be and where it is going... What is the point in keeping the law when only one ideology called cash survives? When those who really believe in good are being laughed at? Where morality and good deads are the stuff of fairy tales... People are eving starting to demand payment for helping in their childrens classes in school, orchestras, athletics... What kind of society is it that we are getting? Do we really want this society? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously well said and I agree. That's why I said in my original post that what I'm interested in, as a student of social psychology, is the "why". What leads to things and what causes things. It's not because someone hates Ubisoft that they download a game. They could care less who made the game. There's other reasons. Societal? Definately. Absolutely.

Well put Justice.

I also like Akito's point about what is a sale ... It's interesting that companies don't consider sales unless there is money attached. I know by definition that is a sale but you can also "sell" someone on an idea or a point too. It's not always about money. How many "pirates" downloaded a game ... doesnt that mean there is demand for the game? What does that say about the game itself. Wouldn't it suck if you made a game and not even a pirate wanted it. If everyone and their grandmother is pulling illegal acts to play your game what does that say about it. Is the issue that you're not making money off of the demand?

Its like drugs. If drugs were "invented" in the U.S. and sold by "large white corporations" they'd be legal. But they aren't legal because "we" don't make them and "we" don't directly profit and who wants "the others" making money.

If a software company could find a way to make money off of piracy ... I bet they'd stop complaining about it. Like legalizing MP3 downloads. Can't beat em join em and make money from the interest in downloading for instant gratification.

I'd also like to ask ... arent most prereleased pirate copies leaked from the gaming companies themselves? So there is some kind of internal issue if you have an employee that gets something by leaking an alpha or a beta from the company to his warez friends. It's not just about the people that download:

You have the people that leak the copies from companies.

You have the people that BUY the game with their own money AND then rip it to distribute.

You have the people that would spend $1500 to upgrade a computer system to play a game they wouldnt BUY.

Theres three different types of people here with three different reasons. If you examined the reasons you might be closer to finding a solution.

FoxHero
05-16-2006, 03:26 PM
You forget me: pirates games and buys the ones he likes. Also, I take pride in supporting the companies whose games I like to play.
And games I don't like... I won't buy. Once companies start offering 3-day limited trials of fulls I will probably stop pirating all together.

Except for rare, old playstation games and SNES Roms. But honestly, there is no actual numers to this specialised kinda damage.

Wanna arrest me for that morale?

Rinpoo
05-16-2006, 03:27 PM
Now this topic has become really good.
I agree especially with revenantsoul and Justice posts, even with Jolly-Joker's post from "Tue May 16 2006 12:03."

It's the way I also feel about it, but well I'm not that good expressing myself with words. X_X

Swintar
05-16-2006, 03:41 PM
I'm wondering what happened to the copy protection on this game xD.

My super delux edition didn't seem to have a copy protection software O.o. (None that I notice actually, which is the best kind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.)

I mean, I could install it just fine, but it never asked for my keycode! Even after several hours of playing it still haven't asked for it though it's written on the manual xD. It's really odd I say :P.

Campaigner_1st
05-16-2006, 04:43 PM
Revenantsoul: I want to know where you would place me in regard to morals and such.

Iv'e bought lots of games for my consoles. NES, SNES, MegaDrive, Playstation and Nintendo 64. The costs were very high but still I bought and got burned sometimes. Today I regret spending all that money on stupid videogames so much that my stomach hurts when I think about it (seriously) and if I could go back in time I would change it without hesitation!

I learned from classmates that games for PC were free. They were also absolutely stunning (Quake, Duke 3D, HoMM II and StarCraft f.e) and I couldn't wait to get a PC and all the free games my harddrive could store.

It wasn't so easy to pirate on console so the choice for me was basically: "Buy cheap consoles and pay for games or buy an expensive PC and get free games". That choice was an easy one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

After I gotted my first PC in 1998 I never gotted another console and have only bought games that require cd-keys for online play (few exceptoins) and have always tried to get games as cheap as possible. If I couldn't download it, due to strong protection (StarForce), cd-key protected multiplay that I want a part of or if it's simply not availble I bought it at the cheapest store.

I voted for the second last option: "Piracy is immoral and hurts devs and publishers".

Yep, I know that but still have no problems with what I do. In the end, it all comes down to a basic question: "Why buy something when you can get it for free"?

I thought that my views were standard in this matter. So either you people aren't completly honest or I was wrong.

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 07:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Campaigner_1st:
Revenantsoul: I want to know where you would place me in regard to morals and such.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all Compaigner ... I'm not placing anyone anywhere. I dont like to see people argue back and forth about issues unproductively. I was trying to put some thoughts out there that would open the topic back up in a more constructive manner and that maybe tackled things in a different way or gave people a different way of addressing the issue. I dont have an opinion either way on what is right or wrong. I am just asking questions, thinking outloud and commenting on things that people have brought up since I posted in an effort to keep things rolling. I mentioned morals when I responded to a previous post that I felt was a bit too black and white. So I'm not putting anyone anywhere, nor would I presume to judge anyone for anything. I'm just simply asking questions. I have pirated and I have bought things myself and I have my own reasons. Like I said, I'm just trying to make the discussion more productive and thought provoking without being hostile or pointless ranting. I am glad that posters like Rinpoo feel things have become "really good" as a result. Anytime the forum moderator needs to come in a warn people that a thread is being shutdown is a time for a change of focus.

I am a very honest person and my views are open and honest about how I feel on what I myself do. My views are also honest about the questions I am raising. I can't speak for anyone else on their reasons. I'm just giving the discussion some different ideas. You can do whatever you like for whatever reasons suit you. As a future social psychologist (I graduate in another year) I can say that your statement "So either you people aren't completely honest or I was wrong." takes me aback. It's neither of those things actually. Just because I am honest doesn't make what someone else does wrong. Nor do my reasons for doing things have any impact on what you do. If you feel this thread is somehow judging you then that is your personal guilt or shame over your own actions. No one is targeting anyone specific here. We're just talking. If you want to keep downloading things for free because you can, go ahead. We're talking more about societal aspects that lead to piracy. I suppose your example of your own reasons is another point to be made about societal standards now - where people feel that don't have to pay if they can get things for free. If people could steal anything and face no consequences would they? Some people do. Like people who pump gas at night and drive off or people who try to take items through the "Self Checkout" line because no one is watching. That just boils down to simple dishonesty and selfishness. I suppose the same can be said about software piracy.

My point was though that there are more reasons for piracy than simple dishonesty and selfishness. That is what I tried to open the thread up to. Something a little less black and white and judgemental and more thought provoking.

When piracy or stealing rises in a society it means things are more out of balance. It means somewhere, something is wrong with how something is being done or made available to the general people. It also can indicate a change in the general attitude of the people about how they feel about those in power or those "making the decisions". That's more what I'm interested in thinking about and talking about more than right or wrong. Like FoxHero said ... "Once companies start offering 3day limited trials of fulls I will probably stop pirating all together." Maybe the issue is being able to really see the game, not just a demo or a, as penny arcade says , "Bullshot" of a screenshot. If all games were $20 would people still pirate? Probably. But would there be less? Maybe. So then is the issue cost of game versus value of game? Etc. These are interesting questions. Not "Is what I do right or wrong."

I hope that explains things better for you.

ShadowProject
05-16-2006, 07:33 PM
Piracy doesent hurt all companies. I whould guess that like 75% of the people who whats a game doesent know how or dont want to download it. The other 25% who download it either does it simply becuase they know how and need to get some use of their freakily fast internet connection.
Due to the piracy, gaming industy is harder and more risky than ever. BUT if they manage to create a game good enought to be enjoyed even by the hardcore gamers and pirates, they will be supported even by them. This simply forces companies to really put their souls into their work, else their games will only be bought by a few and the others who download it will throw it away after testing it.
The era of sinister companies that buy smaller ones and forces them to sell half finnished games once a week is over. As their games will be wellknown as bad long before it hit the shelves, thus wont be bought by the average gamer or the pirate.
Myself I've tested Heroes5, and solved the problems I had with the startup.
If the game whould been bad I whouldnt buy it, But I will, and u can see it as a: "good job Ubi" However, the lack of a Map Editor makes me a bit sad... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoxHero:
You forget me: pirates games and buys the ones he likes. Also, I take pride in supporting the companies whose games I like to play.
And games I don't like... I won't buy. Once companies start offering 3-day limited trials of fulls I will probably stop pirating all together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right I did forget, FoxHero. My apologies. I hadn't thought of that either. I think that's what I was elluding to when I wrote my response to RamzaBehoulve when I said "There is a code between a lot of communities ... even ones that engage in illegal acts that might surprise you as being strangly moral" I just didnt say it clearly.

But thank you for adding that. That certainly is another factor to consider as far as reasons behind things. It gives more support for giving people longer trials so they can really get a feel for the game and see what it has to offer as you were saying.

Good post!

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 07:51 PM
ShadowProject: Interesting about what you said about how piracy makes the industry harder and more risky for the gaming companies. I definately agree and that's what I was elluding to when I said that there was a kind of cycle to how the community is kind of putting their own pressure on companies to make better games, which then cost more money to make, which then makes the community more likely to pirate kind of thing. I know there is a term for this but I can't think of what it is.

At the same time isn't it interesting that games have become more sloppy over the years and also a lot shorter? I have noticed this myself, I don't know if anyone else has. Games are rushed, buggy, patch after patch after patch. And I know there are a lot of factors now companies need to design for .. video cards, CPU types, etc. So its harder to get that perfect product. But it just seemed back in the day games were made better and had more playing value. They weren't just, excuse me for saying "c-mshots", for $50 bucks. Do you see what I'm saying? Sometimes I feel like ... that's it? Maybe its a woman's perspective *laugh* But for $50 bucks I want more satisfaction. *laugh* Am I asking too much? I dunno. Games just are lacking somewhere. All eyecandy and little else. Maybe that's part of the issue to. Simple value. For my hard earned $50 bucks. I could go to the movies 5 times. (Not that the movies are much better value) But I have a choice of what to do. If I support the gaming industry with my dollars every year, is it too much to hope to see that reflected in the quality of games being put out? I have stock in a few gaming companies I support no matter what. My portfolio easily shows what industries I'm interested in. So I definately have a vested interest in how companies do but do they have a vested interest in me as a hard working customer buying their product?

Those "sinister companies" that you speak of are definately out there and they don't care about the money being spent. They know people will buy the games and then download 8 patches so they dont care if they finish before launch or not.

Thank you for your contributions to the forum and as a beta tester. I've done my share of beta testing also and it definately changes the perspective of whether a game will be worth the buy. Absolutely.

Sunjah
05-16-2006, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jyc2006:
Jolly-Joker,

Don't rush to judgement. This poll is designed to understand where different people are coming from. If you read some of my posts, you would understand where I'm coming from (besides the Princess' bedroom chambers).

So before you make such an antagonistic comment, check out the other posts first. Sheesh.

PS - If you want to join the debate, please post in the other threads, no the poll itself. This poll is reserved for daring tales of pirate debauchery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is complete and total BS. You are talking about STEALING!!! How could you even question if it's bad.

It is not a rush to judgment, I don't care what your situation is...YOU ARE STEALING (and that is wrong)!

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 08:36 PM
Sunjah: this is why threads go to **** because of all these emotions and personal judgement/commentary that are meant to ignite people. There's no reason for you to fly off the handle. Joker was making a good point ... this is about understanding and hearing where people are coming from. If you are that narrowminded - that meaning - if you could care less about anyone elses thoughts, views, opinions, and reasons - and only care to push your judgements on others then why participate in such a discussion. It doesn't promote discussion. These kinds of posts only promote emotional and irrational responses. Also, if you read the discussion lately we've moved on from issues of "bad" and "good" and "right" and "wrong" and are trying to EXAMINE the issue from different angles and thoughts about why piracy exists and why there are different kinds of pirates. I would recommend you read ALL of the discussion before posting such responses. It would help to continue things in an openminded direction that promotes thought and not slamming opinions. I think it's been going well and people have brought up some interesting points and thoughts. So far, your post is the only one recently to just be viciously judgemental and not remotely interested in the discussion. Again, I don't see how that helps anything.

On the semi related note I'd be interested in hearing more thoughts from Ubi on what we've been discussion. This is their forum after all and I'm sure they're paying attention. I'm sure they probably have just as direct of statements to make about piracy but I wonder if anything discussed so far is of interest to any Ubi person who may be watching that they might have something to say from the software end?

gimmeadog
05-16-2006, 08:47 PM
Yea, this isnt ethics 101.

Why is it bad? If you worked your *** off to make a great game, then it sold poorly because of piracy, and you lost your job for sequils/expansions, would you want to keep making great games, knowing you wont get paid well for doing your job?

Piracy = Stealing = Bad

And if the company makes no money from its product, do you think there will be a HOMM6?

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gimmeadog:
Yea, this isnt ethics 101.

Why is it bad? If you worked your *** off to make a great game, then it sold poorly because of piracy, and you lost your job for sequils/expansions, would you want to keep making great games, knowing you wont get paid well for doing your job?

Piracy = Stealing = Bad

And if the company makes no money from its product, do you think there will be a HOMM6? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We know that gimmeadog (and do you want a hot dog or a puppy dog what kind of dog do you want? *grin*). We're not debating "right" and "wrong" at this point. We're talking about issues and perspectives. We're discussing. I think we're all aware of the direct criminal and legal implications of stealing. If thats all we were talking about then this wouldnt be a three page thread. We're moving, or trying to, a bit beyond that and into a different focus and perhaps opening up thoughts that shed different light on the topic. No one cares that stealing is bad or wrong obviously. People are still doing it. So talking about it being bad or wrong is equally pointless. Let's talk about the whys and hows and reasons behind has lead to the rise in piracy. Such as societal implications, governmental, commercial, even corporate aspects that lead to more stealing and piracy in the society. How does the Internet figure in. Gen X and Gen Y brainwashed by corporate marketing to want everything and need everything. Our society built on gaining material objects and money is rampant for law breaking. There are REASONS for this ... that's what I'm trying to address.

Along the lines of what you said though, I'm interested in evidence showing a company going bankrupt of someone losing their job because of piracy. Is there such a documented case anywhere? If so is it up for discussion? Piracy is considered publicity by some companies. I've read a lot of articles about how companies reporting piracy increased public interest in the game. Sometimes a game is leaked FOR the reason. So that opens up a whole OTHER area which I touched on earlier. Is this ALL about the pirates or also about the software companies too.

China_Lee
05-16-2006, 09:06 PM
buy a legit copy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ZEHUT4UK
05-16-2006, 09:26 PM
Well, I can try to give one reasonable explanation for the piracy. There is just SO much information out there - everyone is trying to sell their product and maximize their profit, as that's how capitalism works. With so much info it is hard to decide whether the game, a song, or a movie is really worth it. Yes, there are websites that do the reviews and there are forums where people leave their opinions on the matter, but for each individual it is different. Some people liked heroes 4, some people hated it. Which side are you on? It's hard to decide without actually trying the game out. Yes, there are demos, but they are usually VERY short and hardly give a true representation of what the game really is.

Same thing with the music. I personally listen to a lot of music everyday. Not to the stuff they play on the radio though because it's all very commercialized and sounds all the same. They mainly play rap, at least here in US, and I'm used to different kind of music as I was born and raised in Russia. And it is always hard to find something that's really worth it. Sometimes you find the song that is truly a masterpiece (in your personal opinion at least) from an artist that you've never even heard about on some random cd you've downloaded from the web. In that case I usually try to find as much info on that artist as possible, download more songs, if they are available, and if I like them I'll order the cd, or go to the store and buy it to support the artist. This way you will get something you DO like. Now if some TV or a radio commercial tells you - "You need to buy this new CD from Britney Spears because it's da bomb!" - that is not trully you're opinion. it's an opinion of the person who invested in promoting Britney and now wants to get the returns from the investments. I think PR and media have too much effect on people's minds there days.

But that was all a little bit off topic. I'm sorry if my post was not completely relevant =)

FirstAidTent
05-16-2006, 09:45 PM
I wanted to buy a legit copy but this thread has conveinced me otherwise.

Sunjah
05-16-2006, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gimmeadog:
Yea, this isnt ethics 101.

Why is it bad? If you worked your *** off to make a great game, then it sold poorly because of piracy, and you lost your job for sequils/expansions, would you want to keep making great games, knowing you wont get paid well for doing your job?

Piracy = Stealing = Bad

And if the company makes no money from its product, do you think there will be a HOMM6? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Well said. It is so nice to see there are people who actually understand the issue and what is going on here.

If anyone wants to examine piracy and discuss it, simply discuss stealing and selfishness. That is all it is. There is no justification for it, and this *sympton* is the edge of the "I/me/mine" disease that so much of the world suffers from, which is why in an earlier post I said this leads to the world being a bad place.

It amazes me that people can go on and on trying to justify it. I need to stop reading this thread because it's obvious there are a lot of people that are far more concerned with themselves than morality.

That is my fault.

revenantsoul
05-16-2006, 10:49 PM
"If anyone wants to examine piracy and discuss it, simply discuss stealing and selfishness. That is all it is..."

You could only wish it was that simple. That's like saying the world is bad because people are bad. This predicate logic you use to describe the world around you is going to result in far more disappointment than you're experiencing reading this thread. Believe me.

Anyway, I did my best to try and salvage the topic and make it a little bit more interesting and thought provoking but it seems no matter what, small minds always prevail and the real core issues and relevant points get lost beneath narrow vision and personal judgements.

In the end, I guess people don't really care about the important reasons and just want to point fingers and come up with blanket statements to explain how the world works. Again, as someone who makes a living studying social events and how it relates to personal psychology (and who will soon have a Masters *WHEW*!) I can tell you that the world is not as simple as you'd like to make it. And words like "wrong" and "right" bear little relevance to how complicated the struture of humanity and society has evolved. If you really want to answer questions like the one originally posed, I hope you'll learn to look deeper and open your minds to more of the interlacing concepts surrounding it. I think myself and some others brought up some good points that have yet to be challenged. I hope they get discussed in a rational way sometime.

Thanks everyone who really contributed some good points! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Enjoy HOMMV everyone!

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 01:17 AM
I agree with all the previous posters who view these discussions as largely self-justifications for the act of piracy.

I also think those who are attempting to de-moralize (removing the act of morality from piracy) piracy have made some good points.

My thoughts:

Much of the discussion here is like a dog chasing its tail. People fail to see how the opposite viewpoints are connected to each other, and thus continue to focus on peripheral arguments.

To be more specific, the people who morally oppose piracy believe that people who support it, justify it, or have no problems with it are those who are morally gray, or lack any morals whatsoever. The people who justify or have no problems with piracy don't see it that way... they believe that morality is based on social circumstance, and since many of them live in less developed and less democratic countries, they resent the imposition of "Western" and wealthy moral beliefs onto them.

As pointed out by others, we should examine societal influences when we talk about morality. Yes, the condition of a society influences the moral beliefs of people living in that society. When people need to devote most of their paycheck to basic needs, payment for everything else which can be obtained for free is rationally disincentivized. If you live in such a society, this kind of behavior then becomes 'normal' and loses its moral implications, as pointed out by many of the posts here.

&gt;But simply because a behavior becomes 'normal' and loses its moral implications for those people does not actually make the behavior moral itself. All it does is signal a shift in that society into 'morally gray' thinking. People are confusing correlations with causation.

And the refute the contention that someone made earlier, in the US, we also view piracy as a less serious crime than murder, rape, robbery, arson, etc. Simply because the US is wealthy, compared to the rest of the world, does not mean that our legal priorities are any different. It simply means that there are more resources to enforce cyber crime laws, whereas in less developed countries, there aren't.

People have been missing the whole point of the people who oppose piracy, and their arguments. Simply because a behavior might be rational, does not make it moral. Simply because you live in a society where certain behaviors are now viewed as morally gray, does not justify the behavior itself.

Here, social instability is used as another self-justification for why there is nothing wrong with stealing one's ENTERTAINMENT. Ok, you live in a country plagued by war, poverty, and instability... if it's really that bad, WHAT ARE YOU DOING PLAYING VIDEO GAMES? Shouldn't you be hiding, scavenging, or working to build a better future? Give me a break, and don't exaggerate your plight to justify video game piracy.

To the people who are morally opposed to piracy, and who lament the symbolism for where the world is heading, I think we often forget that the society in which we live in shapes our moral beliefs and virtues. But moral beliefs DO NOT depend exclusively on society. Other influences, such as family beliefs, religion, communitarianism, and so on influence beliefs as well. The people who attempt to justify piracy would like you to believe that morality depends solely on the society which you live in. In all seriousness, perhaps the reason why they believe that is logical is because the educational systems of those countries are poor, and their societies have little social fabric or cohesion.

Consider the implications of a morally gray world, as JJ and the others have discussed. If the US wants to go into your country and bomb the hell out of it, and then summarily execute all suspected pirates because US corporations are pissed, is there any morality in that? No... don't judge us because you're not in our shoes. To execute all suspected pirates is aligned with our society's morals, and you have no right to criticize our methods because you're not an American. In a morally gray world, the strongest survive and justify their actions however they please.

Now, someone did make the good point that the law does not necessarily reflect morality, but instead reflects the preferences of special interest groups which are able to exert disproportionate influence over the political process. In response, I would agree with non-enforcement of such a law, if the law in fact was not justified by broader social considerations than mere industry self-interest. But even if the passage of a law is motivated by self-interest, that does not automatically disqualify its social utility.

Let's face it: Some societies are better than others. I would much rather live in a society where members care about one another and are considerate, than one where people befriend you only out of naked self-interest, or are strongly inclined to put themselves first above others.

Yes, capitalist materialism undermines social cohesion in Western democracies. And that's something that greatly concerns me, especially when it manifests in the periodic corruption of US politicians. But let's accept the reality that human beings are materialistic in nature. Materialism is bad when it rises to the point of motivating harm to others. It can be good when it motivates economic activity and productivity. It's easy to lament materialism, but there is always some degree of hypocrisy present, unless you choose to live the life of an ascetic.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 01:29 AM
QUOTING REVENANT: "We're not debating "right" and "wrong" at this point. We're talking about issues and perspectives. We're discussing. I think we're all aware of the direct criminal and legal implications of stealing. If thats all we were talking about then this wouldnt be a three page thread. We're moving, or trying to, a bit beyond that and into a different focus and perhaps opening up thoughts that shed different light on the topic."

Sorry Revenant,

While you may want to shift the focus of this thread into a discussion on the causes behind piracy, that doesn't justify exclusion of the moral reasons and explanations behind the shift. In other words, no substantive limitation of the debate is present here.

To do so would be unfair and artificial, since morality is always entangled into any social context or event.

Should you wish to devote a new thread to address the topic which interests you, please feel free to do so.

That said, I think a lot of very good points have been made by many, and I hope people feel welcome to contribute their thoughts, as long as the contributions are in line with the Terms of Use (ToU) and the guidelines which Acheval laid out.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 01:42 AM
QUOTING REVENANT: "Anyway, I did my best to try and salvage the topic and make it a little bit more interesting and thought provoking but it seems no matter what, small minds always prevail and the real core issues and relevant points get lost beneath narrow vision and personal judgements.

In the end, I guess people don't really care about the important reasons and just want to point fingers and come up with blanket statements to explain how the world works. Again, as someone who makes a living studying social events and how it relates to personal psychology (and who will soon have a Masters *WHEW*!)" END

&gt;Once again, you are attempting to limit the scope of the discussion. If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean that they have a 'small mind.' It simply means their perspective is different.

QUOTE: "We're talking about issues and perspectives." END

&gt;So why doesn't that same standard apply to people who disagree with you?

Listen, your studies of sociology are valuable to this discussion, but they by no means are authoritative on any of the issues discussed, just as my legal studies are not. We cannot draw generalizations and assume that they are applicable for the rest of the world. What is important is the use of logic in constructing and deconstructing another's argument.

Referring to your 'educational credentials' proves little, especially when used to support general assertions. Education only goes so far in understanding pther perspectives and reality.

PS - From one scholar to another: You used the word 'predicate' incorrectly. Predicate can only be used as a verb or noun, not as an adjective. Check the link below.

QUOTE: "This predicate logic you use to describe the world around you is going to result in far more disappointment than you're experiencing reading this thread."

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/predicate?view=uk

&gt;This triviality is not motivated by malice in any way, just thought it would be helpful in your future intellectual endeavors.

Rinpoo
05-17-2006, 02:05 AM
Well let the flamers flame, if we don't put oil in the fire it wont grow.

I've started playing video games almost at the beginning of their creation. I didn't start with ping pong, it was a bit further away, with Loom from Lucas arts. At that time I as 6 or 7 years old. I've watched the developement of games for 16 years now and it's really frustrating. Most games are only remakes of games that were already made. The only difference is the graphics, of course good graphics are nice for the eye, but if you've played alot of games, mostly you don't care about graphics anymore. Best example for this would be First Person Shooters, they differ only in a few gameplay aspects and most in graphics. So for the older gamers it's become hard to get to play new innovative games. For the young ones it's of course new land, since they don't know the old ones. I personally think that most companies target the newer generations, since there will be always new ones. And it's easier to copy something than creating something new.

For the piracy aspect we have already a lot of points why ppl do it.
So how do we get those pirates to buy the product?
First we need a protection, if the protection is flawless then the problem would be solved. But since every game copy protection we know of was cracked, it's of no use. Now what to do. It's very hard to think of something. Well let's get opinions of others and start a thread in the Heroes 5 forum about it.

Now seriously I also watched the german heroes 5 formus and they also have had a discussion about piracy. So did UBI perhaps seed some seeds? And does it perhaps has to do with 3DO and the previus heroes 4?

If yes I would be glad and proud to help by contributing my thought and experiance in this thread.

In my opinion it's impossible to get every pirate to buy the original game.
The only way to get more of them is by making the game a multiplayer game and using a serial key that is needed to play the game online. And of course to make a good game and give it good support. If we take a look on Wacraft and Starcraft from Blizzard. Even now after years there are still people playing starcraft and warcraft. In Korea they even play Starcraft as some kind of national sport. So why are these games so popular? First they have a really good support and balancing, and even after many years there are still patches beeing made. A long beta test phase, if Im not mistaken I can remember they made a one year beta test for warcraft 3. Then a very good Map edior, very easy to use and with a complex scripting language. That even allowed to modifiy the game that much, that games in the game could be crated. To name a very popular user made map: dota allstars.

My 3 points what is needed to get a game to success:

- long time to develop and perfectioning, let the artists have time to create

- singleplayer with good story is mosly very important, if it's not good,
the multiplayer has to make up for the singleplayer mode.

- let the game grow, even if it changes completely. Let the fans, the gamers have some freedom to modify the game. And since they mostly aren't professionals, they need a tool they can use.

With those points the game can't fail. Just analyse games Like Starcraft, Warcraft and Half-Life.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 02:11 AM
Rinpoo,

I agree with what you said.

To answer your question about whether Ubi planted seeds for this discussion, I believe that they probably didn't. This discussion was originally started when people who had pirated copies came here asking for help. The moderators have exercised difficult restraint in not weighing in, but have been following the discussion.

MaskOrModulo
05-17-2006, 02:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jyc2006:
PS - From one scholar to another: You used the word 'predicate' incorrectly. Predicate can only be used as a verb or noun, not as an adjective. Check the link below..
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact I think he talked about "first order logic", also called "predicate logic". This is the kind of formal logic that deals with quantifiers (for all x ... / there exists an x ...) and predicates, e.g. B(x) == "x is bad".

first order logic on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_order_logic)

Sorry for the nitpicking and for going completely off-topic on my first post on this board.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 02:54 AM
lol,

Mask, you're right. My mistake. I briefly skimmed the wikipedia entry, and thought that predicate logic (taken for a noun as a whole) applied only to mathematical analysis.

Eh, I wouldn't worry about going off-topic... we'll quickly be steered back anyways http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ampuhaukka
05-17-2006, 03:35 AM
First of all, i didn't read the whole topic 'couse its too long and i'm lazy.
Piracy is in my opinion sometimes bad and sometimes good, example when you download a game made example Elactronic Arts, no harm is done, 'couse they have loads of money anyway, and i would lose about half of my own buying that 50" game. I'm a pirate mostly, I don't see what harm there is to download TV shows that are not even shown in the country that i live in, ex. prison break, what is btw. the best tv show ever, but anyway, there's no harm IMHO. But i do buy stuff that i could just pirate from the net sometimes, i will buy homm5, why? because i'm a fan, and a true fan don't ware the game, and because there is small companies behind the game development, who i want to support. And i want to ask a q wrom all of you: do you see yourself buying a single cd of a band that you dont really like, but there is that one good song? or do you just get it illegaly wrom the net, in 5min. from home? I hope you got my opinion of piracy.

MaskOrModulo
05-17-2006, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I briefly skimmed the wikipedia entry, and thought that predicate logic (taken for a noun as a whole) applied only to mathematical analysis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry, I didn't quite get that now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
For one thing "mathematical analysis" also has a wikipedia entry, but I guess your meaning was "analysing things with mathematics". If you really meant "mathematical analysis" then I don't have any idea what you're talking about, due to my rather vague understanding of the topic.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The other thing I didn't get was the following:
Did you mean

I) after reading my post, you checked the wiki entry, found out your error about "predicate" being an adjective, but now you nevertheless think that revenantsoul was wrong in using it, because it only applies to mathematics.

II) before reading my post, you already checked the wiki entry, but thought it didn't apply here, because we're not talking mathematics. After reading my post you found out, that it actually applied.

my answer to II) no worries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

my anser to I)
When you say something like "All people who are software pirates are bad" in fact you're using predicate logic. You got your quantifier (All), you got your predicates (is pirate, is bad) and you got your implication. So you get:
for all x who are human: pirate(x) ==&gt; bad(x)

Pointing out that this is a limited view of the world seems quite a good point to me.



I'm actually sorry, this reads a bit like a flame up till now, but that really wasn't my intention, i just didn't get your meaning.

Ok now that this is taken care of, I'll try to steer this thread a bit back on topic bs sharing my views on pirating software and this thread.


What I find interesting here is that there seem to be two basic, very different viewpoints. On the one hand there are people who are against pirating on the grounds that it is against the law and not moral, on the other hand there those who think that the morality of pirating depends on one's one intentions and circumstances.

I think a lot people here will be familiar with the simplistic alignment categorization of D&D, where character's moral perspectives are described on the axes
(good: benevolent, altruistic / evil: selfish, sadistic)
and (lawful: obeys authority&tradition / chaotic: no special respect for authority&tradition).

I feel quite stupid for bringing this up in a moderately serious thread like this, I also don't think it's a suitable tool for understanding society or anything of the like, but it just seems to fit so amazingly well for some posters.

Those who see authority and law as supreme moral instances, necessarily view people as immoral, who set their own moral standards. On the other hand, they themselves seem morally dogmatic und overtly rule-fixated from the other group's perspective.
This runs completely independent of whether a person thinks he's "doing the right thing"

I'd like to make the following observations:
- Nobody obeys all the rules (be they law or social conventions) of a given society. So in my opinion arguing solely with the "lawfulness" or "morality" of an action, necessarily results in hypocrisy. Speeding is also against the law, and now hands up everybody who has -at all times- absolutely obeyed the speed limit. (and owns a car)
Moreover law and morality have taken some pretty extreme forms in the course of history, so one should exert caution when using them as guides.

- If someone downloads a game he would never have bought, there is no actual damage done. The same applies if someone downloads a game he has bought or will buy. If you think that's wrong, show me an example.
A friend of mine (honestly now!) downloaded HOMM5 because otherwise he would have to wait until end of may for it (that's the release in Austria). When it's released he's surely going to buy it. He jokingly said that he was angry at Ubisoft, because they forced him to download the game by releasing it so late here. Was it against the law? Yes. Textbook question: Was it immoral?

- If someone downloads a game he would otherwise have bought, there's real damage done.

So, if there theoretically was a way to determine, whether you would have bought the game, we could assess if there was damage done by pirating the game. Because we cannot and probably never will be able to do that, we have laws that forbid pirating these games, no matter what's the reason behind it.

Now there are (for me) two reasons to obey a law:
- I agree with the law, because it states my moral views.
- I am afraid of getting caught

When I pirate a game I'm not really afraid of getting caught, so let's cut reason 2.
Does the law state my moral views? No, not completely. Only when I would have bought the game otherwise, but didn't because I downloaded it, then see it as morally wrong.

So now: Why should I obey this law, although I'm not afraid of getting caught and it doesn't completely coincide with my own moral views? Now there are some reasons I could think of:

I have more trust in the moral views implied by the law, than in my own moral vies.

I am afraid, that I "taste blood" and start completely ignoring my moral views alltogether.

I want to set a good example for other people.

None of these reasons apply for me, so the question remains:
Why should I obey the law?

Malfurius
05-17-2006, 04:56 AM
I only buy software if it cant be pirated XD, i rather have that extra 40 bucks in my own wallet instead of giving it to some greedy rich ppl.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 06:25 AM
In response to Mask:

I meant that I thought predicate logical was an analytical tool used in solving mathematical equations. I had skimmed the entry before your post, but should have read it more carefully.

But had you read my response more carefully, those additional questions would not have been warranted. I said 'thought,' (which is past tense) didn't I? Additionally, the language "applied only to mathematical analysis" is pretty clear, since only excludes everything else. What other mathematical analysis is there?

&gt;&gt;&gt;

Yes, I agree with you, the assumption that all people who pirate are bad people is a limited and simplistic view of the world. However, that is different from the assertion that the act of piracy itself is not bad.

I'm not going to address all the points you have raised, since many of them have been addressed by other posts, but here are some of my thoughts on the prospectively new assertions you may have made:

Indeed, everyone has broken the law at some point. Some laws are poorly written. Others are poorly (or maliciously) intentioned. What matters is that sufficient and real due process exists to preserve individual rights.

Regardless of a law, there are gradations to moral behavior in breaking a law. Obviously, breaking the law to rape a child is severely immoral. Breaking to law to speed, so you can get to work faster? Less moral implications. More implications if you're speeding in a school zone. The point is, the morality of law-breaking behavior depends on the context.

Yes, law and morality are often separate. Morality asks us to consider our own actions and the impact on others. Law serves other ends, and sometimes moral ends also. Copyright law is motivated by both moral and other concerns. I fully understand if you believe there is no immorality in your own actions, since others are not harmed.

Here are some articles discussing the losses which piracy incur:

http://www.webcpa.com/article.cfm?articleid=13039

http://asia.cnet.com/news/systems/printfriendly.htm?AT=...-39037054t-39000006c (http://asia.cnet.com/news/systems/printfriendly.htm?AT=21205235-39037054t-39000006c)

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~bac2/piracy/paper/paper.html (http://www.cc.utah.edu/%7Ebac2/piracy/paper/paper.html)

Now, I'm sure you'll dispute the facts and figures in these articles, but I'd like you to present some articles and information as well to support your assertion that no harms are created. Simply because harms are difficult to measure, does not mean that they are not there.

Given the nature of anonymous piracy, it is no wonder that the exact losses are difficult to measure. The offensive tactic of disputing facts and figures, while offering no evidence in support of your own position, is unfair. Of course, the industry interest groups have the ability to fund such studies, and bias might be present. But you still cannot outright dismiss a claim simply due to a personal belief that bias is present.

And I disagree with your characterization of the two major viewpoints. You left out a large category of people who believe that piracy is immoral, regardless of what the law says about it. The latter parts of your post are aimed at deconstructing morality, so you obviously are aware of this perspective. I don't understand why you failed to include it.

Once again, I hope that the topic does not devolve into a "it's my beliefs and situation against yours... since you're not in my shoes, don't judge me." I'm not saying that's what your doing, but that is the most commonly articulated (and fallacious) base argument.

Also, you articulated convenience reasons to ask the question whether piracy is immoral in that context. *Simply because obtaining something legally is less convenient that pirating it, that does not address the morality of the action itself. So if it was easier for me to steal clothes rather than waiting at the checkout counter to pay, somehow morality is not implicated? I don't know what assumptions you were using to conclude the opposite, but please spell them out more clearly. (The 'convenience issue' also has been widely discussed already.)

By definition, the belief that my own interests justifies theft, irrespective of the harms faced by others, is a SELF-JUSTICATION. Sure, you can try to attack whether harm is present or not. If you can prove no harm, that may support the proposition that piracy is less immoral than previously believed.

Simply because those us who view piracy as immoral use moral language, somehow that makes us dogmatic? I'm afraid that kind of logic leads to the conclusion that any moral judgements are dogmatic, and re-enters us into the 'morally gray' discussion of my previous post.

That simply supports my assertion that people who pirate will justify their behavior however they please, however illogically. It is some form of perverse moral belief that they somehow are right in their actions, and that those who criticize their activities are in essence, the real wrongdoers. Exemplified by a criminal who calls his victim and society self-righteous when she wishes to hold him accountable for his behavior. The criminal is arrogant enough to believe that his 'clever' reasons make him different from other criminals throughout history.

And I will state this EXPLICITLY: The movement is already underway in the US and EU to enforce copyright protection laws, so justify at your own risk.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 06:35 AM
To answer you last question, Mask:

You shouldn't. Instead, you should do as you please, and hope that your justifications win over the court of law when you are caught.

Should moral constraints fail, that's why we have the law. If everyone in this world was giving, considerate, kind, and thought of others first, we WOULDN'T need the law, even where disagreements arose.

In response to Malfurius: You're not seeing how that logic illustrates your own greed. Yet another example, out of countless HUNDREDS made in this forum, of self-justification.

My patience has run thin. I have not heard many persuasive arguments which would warrant stripping intellectual property of protection, nor as to why piracy poses no moral problems. All I have heard are self-justifications, some more honest than others.

Think what you will, but remember that law enforcement is not going to be sympathetic.

I'm not going to address any more self-justifications, unless they actually raise persuasive arguments.

I don't mean to be harsh with you Mask, but it appears that you and I have very different moral beliefs and attitudes toward the law. It is possible to rationalize any immoral act, and dangerous consequences will flow from societal acceptance of such rationalizations, as evidenced by the propaganda behind the Holocaust and other genocides throughout history.

But the approach which you have adopted, aka moral relativism, does nothing to prevent your concerns of moral oppression, or oppression in general. If anything, moral relativism is used to justify all sorts of nasty things, such as human rights abuses worldwide.

I think what is important is that no one group is allowed to impose their moral preferences upon others. Moral standards need to be developed, but they should derive from democratic and representative process and dialogue. Simply to say that the dangers of moral oppression justifies an absence of any universal standards whatsoever is a tenuous conclusion.

International standards, both moral and legal, are developing in regards to respect for intellectual property at a remarkable pace. And while you may view these standards as an intrusion upon your own moral autonomy, that is a strange defense for using another's property without their permission.

ShadowProject
05-17-2006, 06:35 AM
This thread is really going deeper than I thought was possible. And that this subject was this deep was beyond me aswell.

I've always looked at piracy from my own situation. I got money, I can buy a game every month as gaming is my main interesst and the main thing I whould put my money on. But the Internet gives you altenatives thats hard to resist. let me give you a bit wierd example: :P

What if you suddenly noticed you have been granted special powers to be able to get anywere u want and with unlimited speed and being invisible? "man with these powers I whould be able to enter that store and take a TV and bring it home so fast it whouldnt even dissapear form the shelves and no one whould notice it!".
You whouldn't buy that TV if you didn't have these powers and as it is taken with such speed it rather duplicated than got stolen. Noboy is harmed but YOU get a new TV. YOU get happy and the others are happily unaware of the theft.

I know this has been brought up before but this wierd angle maybe gives you a hint how it feels to be able to download somthing that you otherwise whould have to go to a store and buy.

Go buying a game or simply download it is not a very difficult choice for me. Even thought, I've always been lawfull and I belive in good and morality.
Despite this, I've fallen under the addicting piracy. It started with getting a burned cd of a game from a friend, and few years later I downloaded music. When some of my frieds comes over and someone says "hey lats play that old game over there in multiplay!" Maybe Im the only one who got it so we have to create image files of the CD's so every one gets one. We probobly uninstall the game when we are done anyways so who is harmed due to these nostalgical hours of joy? It's when it turns into downloading just for the sake of downloading It's gone way wrong as I see it.

I don't download games or music to punish the greedy companies, I do it becuase I can and that nothing can stop me. Mostly I've decided I will buy the game after that Ive tested it anyway.
There is some more reasons why I prefer downloading games.
One example is the game Dragonshard that I had downloaded, loved it in single play but when I bought it to be able to play online I noticed that their multiplay suked and was very unstable and unbalanced.
Also I've bought games that didn't work on my computer. A total waste of money,
Another reason for starting downloading is that every one does it! at least every one around me, like my classmates (we even get some softwares from our teachers that they copied themselves!)
And I sometimes get requests from someone in my family about movies, music and such they whould like me to find so they don't have to buy it. In other words, piracy is normal. At least in my comunity. I think I got qute a good moral compared to people around me. As I try to avoid downloading things I don't really want.

I still support producers by buying games and music that I really like. I even got two bought CD's of Warcraft3 Expansion! (But I still uses cracks and Virtual CD's so I dont have to damage the original ones.) I will probobly buy Heroes 5 and not even open the box as I wont need to!

Examples of games ive downloaded, tested and later bought is Dragonshard, F.E.A.R, Oblivion, Heroes5 (not bought yet but I got he cash in my pocked, redy to be spent).

Maybe my point of view gives you some more insight to one way of piracy, I don't know but one thing is for sure, piracy won't be stopped. every lock can be picked so protection only gives the companies a little more time before their game is cracked and distributed for free across the Internet. (as the cracking atempts starts even before the game is released the protection is rather pointless)
The true way for companies to make money of their games is to keep up their work when the game is out. And to give good support and updates for registered users only (CD keys that must be uniqe for each registered player). Let the game be free but if you want to be supported as a player you need to pay. That will give a friendly aproatch to gamers and making them more willingly to support the developers.

The reason that I've thought about this is becuase I have dreams myself to one day be a part of a company that produces games and therefore can imagine how it whould feel to get your work distributed for free. Let the game be free but the support cost, thats how it should be done. And before u think that the money you get from support isn't enough to cover the expences, well then the game wasnt as good as you thought as noboby seem to care to get the support.
Making games is not for anyone. Either you got the magic talent and you success or you haven't and therfore fail, thats how it should be.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 06:52 AM
Shadow,

A great and informative post. I agree with you, piracy won't be stopped, but it can be minimized through proactive law enforcement, as well as company attentiveness to games.

I know how addictive it is to pirate something. The sheer convenience of downloading something makes piracy much more preferable than waiting for a legitimate copy, in our instant-gratification times.

For the companies, the real way to minimize piracy is to keep updating the game, allowing only those with legit and unique CD keys to update, and offering more multiplayer options. Just look at the success that Blizzard has had http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope Znork and the others read your post.

I'm actually halfway between options 3 and 4 of the poll. I too have bought games which don't work on my system, through no fault of my own. Some I've had to download CD cracks to get them to work.

Your post was very excellent and fair. I hope you comment more in the future.

akito272927
05-17-2006, 07:08 AM
As to the question in this post....is not bad, it just not legal. As said before form other person, there are culture isuues and economic ..that shapes your way of living.Most of you wont understand this, as i read here, lot are saying stuff about that were you live doesent matter, or that if live in a crapy country you should be doing something to help cpountry, ect..As i cant understant fully americans or Europeans because i leve in other society is the same for you...most of the countries not represent good sale or sales at all, you should be chassing you own country man that had the money but downloaded.

Ydraliskos
05-17-2006, 07:21 AM
JJ..

Out of curiosity... How bad is piracy for you?

Do you really hate software pirates that much? To the extent to wish they get their faces bashed in?

If a friend of yours was pirating software, would you punch him, or stop talking to him?

Because yeah, I will be the first to admit that piracy is bad and immoral, but morality isn't binary.

So I'm just curious how condemnable is the piracy characteristic on a person, for you, because honestly, I think you're overreacting.



ALSO, a different aspect of the subject.

Software piracy is propagation of information, technically. I don't see how it can be stopped. (don't misunderstand, I mean this in a technical way.)

Notice no other law is entirely based on the people's goodwill not to break it, but have enforcing measures.

So, I think society and the law system need to rethink the copyright system on digital products quite a bit...

Secret_Holder
05-17-2006, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akito272927:
As to the question in this post....is not bad, it just not legal. As said before form other person, there are culture isuues and economic ..that shapes your way of living.Most of you wont understand this, as i read here, lot are saying stuff about that were you live doesent matter, or that if live in a crapy country you should be doing something to help cpountry, ect..As i cant understant fully americans or Europeans because i leve in other society is the same for you...most of the countries not represent good sale or sales at all, you should be chassing you own country man that had the money but downloaded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of corse piracy is a bad thing. There is only one thing to say: If it's illegal it's bad, and piracy has becoe real bad (many thanks to the internet for that).
Here's an example: A man really wants to have a TV, so he can watch his favourite show, but he can't afford one. Is it then okay for him to go and steal a TV? The answer is NO.
You talk about third-world countries, and the poverty there. But even though someone lives in poverty, they shouldn't be allowed to pirate a video-game. For me it would be anothere thing if we were talking about inpoverized people stealing food, wich I think would be okay, if they couldn't afford it.
But when were talking about video-games, it's just not the same thing. Video-games are luxury wares, wich we can live without, food isn't for ex.

MaskOrModulo
05-17-2006, 08:01 AM
in response to JYC2006 May 17 2006 05:25

Sorry, I missed the past-tense, that's why I asked.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes, I agree with you, the assumption that all people who pirate are bad people is a limited and simplistic view of the world. However, that is different from the assertion that the act of piracy itself is not bad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
With the sentence "All people who are software pirates are bad", I just wanted to show, that predicate logic actually applies outside a mathematical context. I could also have used the sentence "The mother of my brother is my mother". It was not part of an actual argument or any opinion I hold. But since I tried to show something on the basis that you didn't accept it, namely that first order logic can be applied outside of mathematics, which it turns out you did, talking about it is kind of useless.

As to the moral graduations of breaking laws, point taken. I rephrase the following way:

Using legality and social moral standards to argue why something is immoral is an "appeal to authority", that doesn't really explain anything. What I wanted to express is, if I may quote you here, that
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the morality of law-breaking behavior depends on the context.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I believe piracy is harmful to the economy. I hope you don't feel offended that I only skimmed the articles, but I never argued that piracy was not harmful in general, so I'm not quite sure why you posted them. I just stated three cases:

1) I pirate software I would never have bought 2) I pirate software and later buy it
3) I pirate software and don't buy it. If I wouldn't have pirated it, I would have bought it.

And then I said, that an actual monetary loss only takes place in the third case. Obviously I can't really say "for me it's case 1, so it's okay if I pirate", because we do not actually know if we had bought it otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The offensive tactic of disputing facts and figures, while offering no evidence in support of your own position, is unfair. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't dispute any facts or figures. It's interesting that you dedicate quite a large part of your response to arguing against a view I don't hold. So if you happen to wonder how I could miss your past-tense "thought", here's your chance to reread my post and try to find where I said: "piracy causes no harm" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm gonna save you the trouble and quote from my post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- If someone downloads a game he would otherwise have bought, there's real damage done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As to the two categories I mentioned, my categorization was not meant to be final or complete in any way. I just pointed out that these viewpoints exist, but thanks for pointing out a third major category. I just felt that "individual morals" vs. "common social moral standards" was a theme here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Also, you articulated convenience reasons to ask the question whether piracy is immoral in that context. *Simply because obtaining something legally is less convenient that pirating it, that does not address the morality of the action itself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll chance a wild guess here and assume that you wrote this in response to the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A friend of mine (honestly now!) downloaded HOMM5 because otherwise he would have to wait until end of may for it (that's the release in Austria). When it's released he's surely going to buy it. [...] If you can prove no harm, that may support the proposition that piracy is less immoral than previously believed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So maybe you missed the part where I said, "When it's released he's going to buy it". I see why what he does has to be illegal (because we can't prove that he'll buy it), but I don't see why it's morally wrong for him to do it, there's simply no harm involved. Comparing this to stealing clothes somehow seems misplaced.

I am more and more convinced that you actually didn't read my post very carefully, because in the last part of your post. again, you devote a large part of your response to addressing a belief I don't hold. (that I'm self justifying my belief that pirating is harmless)

I just wrote down my thoughts on when I consider pirating not to be immoral, apart from it's legal status and you misunderstood me as arguing that pirating was in no case immoral.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Simply because those us who view piracy as immoral use moral language, somehow that makes us dogmatic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I said was:
If you accept the law and moral social standards as supreme moral authority, then you will seem dogmatic to those that rather follow their own moral guidelines. It's interesting you count yourself to the first group so willingly.



I have to admit that I got quite angry, while formulating this response, when I realized that you didn't actually try to read my post. Two times you devoted lenghty parts of your response to opinions I don't hold. I know myself how easy you can miss things in other peoples posts, and I am myself aware that I've probably missed quite a bit in your's now, but let's try to be more careful now okay?

Ydraliskos
05-17-2006, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaskOrModulo:

If you accept the law and moral social standards as supreme moral authority, then you will seem dogmatic to those that rather follow their own moral guidelines. It's interesting you count yourself to the first group so willingly.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! This is the point I had lost hope of getting across, but you said it perfectly.

Justice
05-17-2006, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ydraliskos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaskOrModulo:

If you accept the law and moral social standards as supreme moral authority, then you will seem dogmatic to those that rather follow their own moral guidelines. It's interesting you count yourself to the first group so willingly.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! This is the point I had lost hope of getting across, but you said it perfectly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Meaning that it only are idiots or konservative people who actually follow the rules and think of other people than themselves?

akito272927
05-17-2006, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Secret_Holder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akito272927:
As to the question in this post....is not bad, it just not legal. As said before form other person, there are culture isuues and economic ..that shapes your way of living.Most of you wont understand this, as i read here, lot are saying stuff about that were you live doesent matter, or that if live in a crapy country you should be doing something to help cpountry, ect..As i cant understant fully americans or Europeans because i leve in other society is the same for you...most of the countries not represent good sale or sales at all, you should be chassing you own country man that had the money but downloaded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of corse piracy is a bad thing. There is only one thing to say: If it's illegal it's bad, and piracy has becoe real bad (many thanks to the internet for that).
Here's an example: A man really wants to have a TV, so he can watch his favourite show, but he can't afford one. Is it then okay for him to go and steal a TV? The answer is NO.
You talk about third-world countries, and the poverty there. But even though someone lives in poverty, they shouldn't be allowed to pirate a video-game. For me it would be anothere thing if we were talking about inpoverized people stealing food, wich I think would be okay, if they couldn't afford it.
But when were talking about video-games, it's just not the same thing. Video-games are luxury wares, wich we can live without, food isn't for ex. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if it illigal is bad?? lets put an example....if you are on the street and someone attacks you, you kill him because your life was in danger..for the law a crime was commited, but it was in self defence it was JUSTIFIED.....
here the case is similar not the same but similar...the game cost to much in some place to concider buying...so you download...if you dont download no harm is made because you have never bought that game anyway.......understant??
yes is piracy but no harm because it wasent a sale the first time....other thing is if you dont buy an you can aford the game....

MaskOrModulo
05-17-2006, 08:24 AM
jyc2006:

I just read your second response to me, and I've found out that now I've become a moral relativist...

I don't really know whether I'm supposed to be amused or angry. It's okay if you miss some phrases when reading my posts, but upon reading what you write about me, you would think that you know me personally.

As to the whole Holocaust subject:
I actually am from Austria, which doesn't lend me any special credibility, but is interesting nonetheless http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
If you didn't discriminate Jews here during Hitlers reign, you were acting *AGAINST* the moral and legal standards of the time.

edit:

Justice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Meaning that it only are idiots or konservative people who actually follow the rules and think of other people than themselves? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No... meaning that some people orient themselves more on laws and social standards, while others create their own moral systems. And then there are those in between. It's like religion: some people prefer organized traditional beliefs, while others like to create and mix.

If we only had one of the two sorts of people we would all be dead by now, or still in ethical stone-age. How lucky we are to have both.

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 08:49 AM
Mask,

Points very well taken. Now my turn to clarify:

Much of the language in my post was directed at pirates in general, not you in particular. I should have clarified the parts when I was responding to you specifically, as opposed to general arguments articulated. Sometimes when I used the word "you," I actually was speaking in a relative sense. In the future, I will replace "you" with "one" unless directly responding to someone.

For example, when I say something like "But you still cannot outright dismiss a claim simply due to a personal belief that bias is present", contextually speaking, I am not referring to your comments, since they didn't assert that at all, but what I have heard to be used in the past in claiming that the reports are biased.

Nut then again, my apologies for the ambiguity.

Ok, now for a little more order... I'm going to try to address the points you raised in order, but if I miss one, please don't think it is motivated by disrespect in any way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1. About the predicate logic... it appears we agree and have resolved any confusion.

2. If I may quote: "So, if there theoretically was a way to determine, whether you would have bought the game, we could assess if there was damage done by pirating the game. Because we cannot and probably never will be able to do that, we have laws that forbid pirating these games, no matter what's the reason behind it."

I understood this section as saying that since it is difficult to measure the harm, we apply blanket laws, which don't assess the contextual impact of piracy on different industries or companies. I married that interpretation with the assumption that you were taking a position commonly advanced by people who assert that piracy poses no harms, to reach my conclusion that you were asserting that anti-piracy laws themselves are unjust because they don't take into account different contexts.

Acting from this mistaken conclusion, I submitted articles supporting the conclusion that in the context of the software industry, pirating creates economic harm. My apologies for jumping the gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I understand now that you were simply commenting on the quantitative difficulty in measuring the impact of piracy.

3. The "offensive tactic" comment was not directed at you particularly, since you didn't actually ask for evidence about the harms of piracy. That was directed more at others who have repeatedly called for the submission of such evidence, without offering any of their own. I realized later that the comment may have easily been interpreted as an inflammatory, personal attack, and came back here to edit it out. Then I saw your post, and am now writing this response http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

4. I appreciate you pointing out your perspective on one of the main themes, I thought it was an effort to limit the discussion, as some previous posters have attempted. My apologies for jumping the gun again.

5. Convenience argument - Yes, I did fail to read this part of your post carefully. This doesn't justify my negligence, but once I started reading the first two sentences, I thought... "Here we go again, another convenience argument." Sorry, I should have given you more credit, as the rest of your post raised some very good points.

6. WUOTE: "Those who see authority and law as supreme moral instances, necessarily view people as immoral, who set their own moral standards. On the other hand, they themselves seem morally dogmatic und overtly rule-fixated from the other group's perspective.
" END

By this time, I had stopped reading carefully, and assumed that you were articulating arguments similar to the hundreds of posts which justified piracy. I missed the important word "seem" in your second sentence, as it indicated the actual thrust of that paragraph.

IN SUMMARY: My apologies for not fully reading the latter parts of your post. My patience for dissecting every argument posted has run out, especially since many of the arguments are redundant and weak. That frustration had biased me towards your post, and led me to draw conclusions which weren't warranted.

Looking back in this new light, you post has made some excellent points.

Also, I will be more clear in the future when I am referring to the specific poster, or referring to the general public. About half of my post was designed to deal with, all at once, many of the assertions which I've read over the past few days. It would have been wiser to break that post up into two separate posts.

Thanks for calling those things to my attention, however limited and frayed my attention may now be http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 09:02 AM
Mask,

QUOTE: "I just read your second response to me, and I've found out that now I've become a moral relativist..."

Yes, once again, I didn't read the latter part of your post closely after I had formed my own assumptions at what your post was getting at. Again, my apologies.

About your point regarding the Holocaust: Indeed. Even though supporting or protecting Jews was seen as violating the moral and legal norms of the time, the moral conscience of many of those who may have protested these new "morals" was quelled by moral relativist logic such as "We are the proud Aryan nation. Our values are superior and different from the lesser races. We are the chosen, the rulers. Christian beliefs or the beliefs of others have no application to us, because we are superior and transcend those beliefs."

Yes, while this is a loose argument, the point I'm trying to get across is that the partition of another group as "other" and the creation of newly developed (and/or self-justified) 'morals' for your own group (e.g. the Aryan race) serves to legitimize the atrocities against the 'others,' who now do not to fit within your system of 'morals.'

Citizens of Nazi Germany were still called on to treat their fellow Aryans with the highest conscience and respect. This demonstrates the creation of exclusive group 'morals' for Nazi citizens.

I draw this analogy to the partition of video game developers and those whose livelihoods depend on the gaming industry as the 'other.' Some pirates view themselves as operating in a different moral context than the developers, and thus this legitimates the harm that the pirates cause upon the 'other.' Developers do not fit within the moral system of the pirates, since they are all greedy, wealthy capitalists living in the wealthy nations of the world. The world of the developers and the world of the pirates is so different, it is impossible to apply the same morals. And that's how moral relativist logic goes.

I know that was really complex... do you understand what I'm getting at? Please ask me to clarify if necessary.

EDIT: By no means, am I equivocating the crime of piracy to the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany and other genocidal regimes.

Zamolxis108
05-17-2006, 09:06 AM
Oh boy. So many long posts. Who's got time to read them all? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Jolly-Joker
05-17-2006, 09:09 AM
Ydraliskos.
First and foremost: there is no way around the fact that software piracy is theft. Can it be justified? No, because the only end is personal gain and greed. Whether you live in a land where software is comparably expensive or not, what kind of excuse is that? No matter the land, there will always be things you would like to have, but can't afford. If you can afford a pc and the internet connection to download, it cannot be so bad.
Games, movies, CDs, all that stuff is in no way necessary, so there is no other motive for downloading it than greed. If you download it to get it sooner than it will be available in your country the motive is still greed (or maybe impatience) - you cannot wait. The motive is always personal, based on the deliberate decision to get this thing - NO MATTER WHAT. So the motive is low.
Now, downloading pirated software is a theft that is rather easy done - therefore another point's comes into play: it's not only an action of greed, it's one of cowardness at that. Most people wouldn't dare going into a shop and actually lifting a game - but downloading, yes why not? No risk.
Furthermore it's an action that is disrespectful - disrespectful of the artists and the people who made all of this possible.
To forestall all chitchat - to make things clearer, let's talk about pirated movie dvds. A game is something where I would accept something like, well, I download pirated software to get a better impression; if I like the game I buy it; if not I wipe the download from my hd. That's a bit different with a movie, right? You cannot really say, well, that new blockbuster Tom Hanks movie MIGHT be interesting, but it might be not; so I'm going to download and look and decide afterwards. In the good old days you'd actually have to go into the movies - or rent a video half a year later - to check for yourself and it was completely possible you didn't like the movie at all - after having paid for and seen it.
So there is no noble explanation; it's not out of need, it happens out of greed. It happens because people don't want to accept they cannot accept that you have to pay for things and that you cannot have everything you want - when there is an easy way out. It's a bit like stumbling upon something - a purse with some money in it. No name, no address, but a phone number. Now what?

That said we are, after all, only humans and not perfect.
Personally I won't ever look pirated movies or listen to pirated music. I know people who do. They know, I'm against it. I think, it's something everyone must decide for themselves. Games, why should I pirate them? If I have an interest in a game I either buy it, when it's published. Those games are very few because most games don't interest me. Then there are halfway interesting games which I may buy when they drop down in price. Lastly, I can buy used games at Ebay's - cheap. That's a good thing for adventures - you'll play them once and that was that, so why keep them? Buy and sell. Works fine.

Secret_Holder
05-17-2006, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akito272927:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Secret_Holder:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by akito272927:
As to the question in this post....is not bad, it just not legal. As said before form other person, there are culture isuues and economic ..that shapes your way of living.Most of you wont understand this, as i read here, lot are saying stuff about that were you live doesent matter, or that if live in a crapy country you should be doing something to help cpountry, ect..As i cant understant fully americans or Europeans because i leve in other society is the same for you...most of the countries not represent good sale or sales at all, you should be chassing you own country man that had the money but downloaded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of corse piracy is a bad thing. There is only one thing to say: If it's illegal it's bad, and piracy has becoe real bad (many thanks to the internet for that).
Here's an example: A man really wants to have a TV, so he can watch his favourite show, but he can't afford one. Is it then okay for him to go and steal a TV? The answer is NO.
You talk about third-world countries, and the poverty there. But even though someone lives in poverty, they shouldn't be allowed to pirate a video-game. For me it would be anothere thing if we were talking about inpoverized people stealing food, wich I think would be okay, if they couldn't afford it.
But when were talking about video-games, it's just not the same thing. Video-games are luxury wares, wich we can live without, food isn't for ex. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if it illigal is bad?? lets put an example....if you are on the street and someone attacks you, you kill him because your life was in danger..for the law a crime was commited, but it was in self defence it was JUSTIFIED.....
here the case is similar not the same but similar...the game cost to much in some place to concider buying...so you download...if you dont download no harm is made because you have never bought that game anyway.......understant??
yes is piracy but no harm because it wasent a sale the first time....other thing is if you dont buy an you can aford the game.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saying it's okay to download pirated games if you wouldn't have bought them because of the price? Wich is maybe the most stupid pro-piracy argument I've ever heard. If you can't afford a game, get a job!
Also, I don't know what you meant with that justified homocide argument. And please, if you are going to respond to this post, write so I can understand you.

akito272927
05-17-2006, 09:31 AM
What if the game never is for sale were you live?

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 09:37 AM
QUOTE: "What if the game never is for sale were you live?" END

Order it ONLINE. If you have access to a source where you can download an illegal copy, you have access the the company's website. Simple as that.

Secret_Holder
05-17-2006, 09:49 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
It couldn't have been said better.

Justice
05-17-2006, 09:51 AM
I agree with you Secret... but tune a wee bit down... you are a bit to much on the offensive...

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 10:23 AM
Yeah, maybe that was a little too direct. Point taken.

akito272927
05-17-2006, 10:47 AM
online? yes and ubi will send it to every part of the world?
i have a 56k modem so i dont download anything...pages take ages to load http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

i wont pay 60% for a game.

ZartaxTW
05-17-2006, 10:48 AM
Is piracy bad?

The debate here seems to revolve around two things. Law and morality.

First, let's throw the "It's illegal and therefore bad!" argument out the window. The law is not the guideline of what to do and not, it is what you are ALLOWED to do. During apartheid it was illegal for blacks to use the same bus as whites. Do you think breaking this law is bad? But the law has changed a lot since then and it probably will in the future too. What do you believe they are going to think about piracy in a hundred years? The point here is that just because something is illegal it's not bad.

Also, if it was legal to download full games, would you do it? If you change the way you act based on law and still claim it's "bad" or immoral beacuse of law you are a hypocrite not admitting the only reason you are not pirating games is your cowardice.

Second. Moral has no international standard and what one person think is immoral another doesn't. Neither has "higher" morals than the other, just different. I like to think that a good guideline for moral is that an act that hurts another in one way or another is immoral, though there are situations that doesn't apply to this. "No harm, no foul." as jyc2006 put it in another thread. This brings me to what act is moral and what act is immoral depends VERY MUCH on the situation.

Let's look at rldragons example. He claimed to live in serbia where the standard salary was about 100" and each month there is always bills, rent etc to pay. A normal PC-game cost 50". The majority of people will NEVER afford a game. So they download them. Is this immoral? Let's look at the facts:

1. They would never buy the game otherwise, so the developer don't really loose profit. No harm, no foul.

2. They are probably happier when having access to games than when not.

Net: No loss, happier people.

So let them have the game! Let them play! It's not like it affects anyone elses affections or happiness, unless you are a mean old bastard that can't stand happy people. As you can guess, I don't consider their act of piracy immoral.


Another example: Me. I live in sweden and don't by any means consider myself poor, but that doesn't mean I like to spend money on ****. I do download games now and then and the ones I like, I buy. Downloading games in advance for me is a way to evaluate if the game is worth my money. Now, here there might be "harm" since without this chance to evaluate a game I might buy some bad games now and then. But why should I expose myself, be vulnerable and let the developers decide wether or not I make a good deal? It's equally "immoral" of them to release a buggy game, do massive PR and "fool" people into buying the game. Is it really immoral of me to assure that I don't get fooled? Not downloading a game I am not absolutely sure I want is like not looking at a car before I sign the contract.


Yet another example: Some rich kid (yes, I know it's the stereotype for annoying people!) pirates a game, loves it and plays it every day/week for two years never considering to buy it. THIS is immoral! He cleary has the money. He clearly likes the game - know that his money is not wasted. He abvoiusly would have bought it if he couldn't pirate it. So, the developer loose profit they earned putting man hours into the game.


Sorry for any misspellings, I'm in a rush.


P.S. Ghosts are actually caused by Chuck Norris killing people faster than Death can process them.

akito272927
05-17-2006, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ZartaxTW:
Is piracy bad?

The debate here seems to revolve around two things. Law and morality.

First, let's throw the "It's illegal and therefore bad!" argument out the window. The law is not the guideline of what to do and not, it is what you are ALLOWED to do. During apartheid it was illegal for blacks to use the same bus as whites. Do you think breaking this law is bad? But the law has changed a lot since then and it probably will in the future too. What do you thing they are going to think about piracy in a hundred years? The point here is that just because something is illegal it's not bad.

Also, if it was legal to download full games, would you do it? If you change the way you act based on law and still claim it's "bad" or immoral beacuse of law you are a hypocrite not admitting the only reason you are not pirating games is your cowardice.

Second. Moral has no international standard and what one person think is immoral another doesn't. Niether has "higher" morals than the other, just different. I like to think that a good guideline for moral is that an act that hurts another in one way or another is immoral, though there are situations that doesn't apply to this. "No harm, no foul." as jyc2006 put it in another thread. This brings me to that what act is moral and what act is immoral depends VERY MUCH on the situation.

Let's look at rldragons example. He claimed to live in serbia where the standard salary was about 100" and each month there is alway bills, rent etc to pay. A normal PC-game cost 50". The majority of people will NEVER afford a game. So they download them. Is this immoral? Let's look at the facts:

1. They would never buy the game otherwise, so the developer don't really loose profit. No harm, no foul.

2. They are probably happier when having access to games than when not.

Net: No loss, happier people.

So let them have the game! Let them play! It's not like it affects anyone elses affections or happiness, unless you are a mean old bastard that can't stand happy people. As you can guess, I don't consider their act of piracy immoral.


Another example: Me. I live in sweden and don't by any means consider myself poor, but that doesn't mean I like to spend money on ****. I do download games now and then and the ones I like, I buy. Downloading games in advance for me is a way to evaluate if the game is worth my money. Now, here there might be "harm" since without this chance to evaluate a game I might buy some bad games now and then. But why should I expose myself, be vulnerable and let the developers decide wether or not I make a good deal? It's equally "immoral" of them to release a buggy game, do massive PR and "fool" people into buying the game. Is it really immoral of me to assure that I don't get fooled? Not downloading a game I am not absolutely sure I want is like not looking at a car before I sign the contract.


Yet another example: Some rich kid (yes, I know it's the stereotype for annoying people!) pirates a game, loves it and plays it every day/week for two years never considering to buy it. THIS is immoral! He cleary has the money. He clearly likes the game - know that his money is not wasted. He abvoiusly would have bought it if he couldn't pirate it. So, the developer loose profit they earned be putting man hours into the game.


Sorry for any misspellings, I'm in a rush.


P.S. Ghosts are actually caused by Chuck Norris killing people faster than Death can process them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Dergos
05-17-2006, 11:16 AM
oooh you will burn burn inhell damnation

(only to pirates)

VeNtRuE-666
05-17-2006, 11:26 AM
piracy bad? sure yes.. but wtf i dl hommV for free, cause i cant buy it now , i'llenjoy my hommv copy till i can purchase my original version , they gived us a beta , some1 gived us the full one , i'll give myself the original one when i can buy it. not 100% fair , k , but i'll buy it lol

Secret_Holder
05-17-2006, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justice:
I agree with you Secret... but tune a wee bit down... you are a bit to much on the offensive... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Well maybe a little bit...

djoffer
05-17-2006, 03:35 PM
First of all, yes piracy is bad easy as that. And yes it is stealing, and no if you have 30000 mp3 files on your computer it doesnt mean ou would have went out and bought 3000cds, but you might have went out and bought 50cd hence the artists loose money.
Personaly i dont hate/look down on people who pirate games/music/movies etc. and i do it to some extent myself, but what really sickens me is all the people trying to justify it with weak arguments like:" well games are to expensive" or:" i wouldnt have bought the movie anyway so the company did loose money!" Seriously if you want to steal(yes downloading is stealing) atleast be man(or womanhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) enough to admit what you are doing...
Lastly am i the only one who find the argument:" well in my country i only make 100 dollars a month and games cost 50 dollars, so i have no choice but downloading" a bit funny, i mean if you only earn 100 bucks a month, how the F*** do you afford a pc worth 1500-2000 bucks so you can play the damm game?? not to mention the internet connection bill each month? geez grow up folks...

jyc2006
05-17-2006, 03:40 PM
Thanks for your honesty and insight, djoffer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

djoffer
05-17-2006, 03:47 PM
hehe just my opinion, like it or nothttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rrace
05-17-2006, 07:27 PM
Yep. I think it's bad. The companies lose money.

BUT - I used to work for Ubisoft years ago (among other game companies as a coder/designer), and I know just how much money these games make. On occasion I download games made by companies I don't particularly like (though the games are still pretty good, I won't lie) just to be spiteful. I have to admit though.. gamers are not the ones to be asking about morality. I bet we've all played the 'Grand Theft Auto' games. Don't ask us about morals!

So my position on this subject is this: good or bad, right or wrong.. who cares? The game companies still make more money than I'll ever see in my entire lifetime - off just one release, and that's what it REALLY boils down to, isn't it?
Now, if the topic were downloading 'Spice Girls' CD's.. that's a different subject.. lord knows they could use the royalties, I'm sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

FirstAidTent
05-18-2006, 03:30 AM
Thanks, guys. I always thought piracy was evil. You have convinced me otherwise. Guess I'll save my moola on the original version and just download it.

Secret_Holder
05-18-2006, 03:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So my position on this subject is this: good or bad, right or wrong.. who cares? The game companies still make more money than I'll ever see in my entire lifetime </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you are right, the companies still make money. But for me it's more of a moral question as I see piracy as stealing.

djoffer
05-18-2006, 04:38 AM
Interplay,Black isle, Troika, Origin and the list goes on. In case you are wondering is that some of the companies who have gone bankrupt within the last copple of years.. so yeah the company does make a ton of money, when they make a golden title but between those there is always a lot of misses...

akito272927
05-18-2006, 06:31 AM
A pc is afordable bacuase they give you with credit card in your own coin, long payments plans...so with little money you buy a comp. A game like homm is hard to find , they just dont sell it. there is one guy that bring them so he charge you 80 dolaars for it. with that money i buy a hard drive or memory, even a procesor(low end stuff but lets you play most games)....in my country...internet is cheap and is in my own coins so internet for me cost like 20 dolars a month, is a lot cheaper that an 80 dolar game.

money is now justification is a reality for a lot of people...like or not as some said...till i can aford i will go to the guy that sell them for 3 doolars and get a copy..

rrace
05-18-2006, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Interplay,Black isle, Troika, Origin and the list goes on. In case you are wondering is that some of the companies who have gone bankrupt within the last copple of years.. so yeah the company does make a ton of money, when they make a golden title but between those there is always a lot of misses... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aye.. but on that subject I'd blame mismanagement of funds rather than production costs. Even if the game is a real stinker, it still is going to make at least 10X the money put into it. But when the big boss man gets cocky and buys a ten million dollar mansion and a couple of new ferarri's for the driveway (not to mention the extravagent ******s in japan and the cocaine to fuel the party - ya I said it!), it has a way of eating up the cash pretty quickly. Wait.. I forgot the legal staff....
Bottom line, the games aren't that expensive, nor the marketing (though I'm sure the advertising costs a pretty penny) - but it's the men at the top that run the companies into debt, shut it all down liquidating stock, and then open up a new project. God help the designers! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Rinpoo
05-19-2006, 02:11 AM
RRACE U SAY IT!

Rinpoo
05-19-2006, 02:17 AM
Those speculators made the gameing today pretty bad. Games lost thair quality, are released to early, have bad support. Developers and desingers are slaved like hell. Have to do 16H a day in a lot of cases and if they demand something, they get answers like there are enough ppl out there wanting to do your job.

Hell why want kids these days want to be game designers? It's not that neat of a job.

dimon3000
05-19-2006, 03:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by djoffer:
Lastly am i the only one who find the argument:" well in my country i only make 100 dollars a month and games cost 50 dollars, so i have no choice but downloading" a bit funny, i mean if you only earn 100 bucks a month, how the F*** do you afford a pc worth 1500-2000 bucks so you can play the damm game?? not to mention the internet connection bill each month? geez grow up folks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're not correct. Here in Russia my parents make 300 dollars a month. Also computers here cost about $500 due to cheap labour and stealed/repared parts that our computer shops use in computers. So I can afford middle-end PC every 2 years. But computers games that cost $50 and have low replayability are too expencive for me.
PS I won't buy pirate version of HOMMV because game made in Russia usually cost less than $20.

Jolly-Joker
05-19-2006, 04:06 AM
The game will cost $5 in China and Russia is what I've heard.

dimon3000
05-19-2006, 04:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
The game will cost $5 in China and Russia is what I've heard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure about China but in Russia cheapest DVD version costs $12.

Jolly-Joker
05-19-2006, 04:36 AM
Then maybe the 5 bucks were what Ubi gets.