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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:40 AM
When i attempt on this i always come so fast that i no way can hit an other plane, or i come in to slow and get a couple of fighters on my six which apperantly cannot be eh zoomed away from. Either something brake off my plane, or my controls are so stiff i cant hit something at all, or, i black out. Therefore i always end up turning and etc, even with a p39 ( i shot down 10 planes one camp. mission with almost full real though when turn-fighting)

Is there some planes that not at all are suited for B&Z? Wich are good at it?
Thanks in advance

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 05:40 AM
When i attempt on this i always come so fast that i no way can hit an other plane, or i come in to slow and get a couple of fighters on my six which apperantly cannot be eh zoomed away from. Either something brake off my plane, or my controls are so stiff i cant hit something at all, or, i black out. Therefore i always end up turning and etc, even with a p39 ( i shot down 10 planes one camp. mission with almost full real though when turn-fighting)

Is there some planes that not at all are suited for B&Z? Wich are good at it?
Thanks in advance

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:14 AM
Most german planes are good, so the ME-109(mostly G series and later, F series is a good turn fighter), FW series, ME-262, Some of the Yaks are also good. The P-39 is a good TnB fighter I think, I dont really fly it so I dont know.

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 06:58 AM
Hi

Just so you won't feel alone I'm having the same trouble.
I can't seem to keep a p-39 clear turning or zooming. I'm getting to feel that it's definately me and simply more practice is needed.

I have tremendous trouble shaking people off when I'm online, and I guess I'll either figure it out or be terminal cannonfodder, but I'll put the blame on me first.

good luck
wbuttler

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 07:13 AM
The main thing desired in a B&Z plane is the ability to destroy a target aircraft in one attack. If this is done, other performance factors become irrelevant (b/c the opponent is dead).

I like the FW-190 for Z&B, because of the firepower. P-47 is another good choice, as the responsive elevator makes it possible to react to a vertical evasive manuever made by the enemy, and the gun scatter guarantees scoring hits. Any other plane could work as well, provided you can destroy or disable the opponent in an initial attack.

Generally I would focus on Z&B with the heavy, high loaded planes, simply because a turnfight isn't an option in their case.

The trick is to manuever to a position where you can make a successfull attack, and without exceeding your Vmax. If you are more than 1000m higher than your opponent, you should probably use reduced throttle to keep your speed manageable.

Message Edited on 06/15/0312:18AM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:17 AM
wbuttler,

Try flying I-153. Since its slow, you'll spend almost all of your time trying to evade. lol. You WILL become good at evasion if you do it over and over!

One thing to keep in mind: long slow turns dont bleed speed/ energy. Hard turning gets you in trouble because a good BnZ'er will just wait till you've 'fought yourself out' with all those evasive moves and then pounce while you are slow.

Remember to roll when things get desperate. ;-)

As far as BnZ practice: Moving ground targets are a good way to learn. Not only do you have to figure out how to shoot them, but if your approach is off, you slam into mother earth. Not much room for error in that situation. It will force you to become a better BnZ'er. QMB against lots of unarmed bombers helps too (especially at 1/2 speed).

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 08:44 AM
The road to success with BnZ, begins by not expecting anything exotic about it.

BnZ is a defensive and passive concept of air combat tactic - once the enemy spots you, it's effectiveness is probably reduced to less than half of what it originally was.

The high rate of closure itself makes it tough even against planes that are going straight and level(especially with planes that aren't heavily armed). Now if the enemy knows you're coming, and starts to evade, I'd bet the average hit percentage would drop under 2~3%.

Don't expect to knock out planes with pure and clean BnZ. In most of the cases, you'll soon find out that even the greatest of pilots who claim that they always BnZ, actually shoots down planes with other forms of E-fighting. BnZ in most cases, is nothing but just the first few phases of putting the pressure against the lower target, so that they are cornered and cannot evade when the "real" aggressive attack comes in.



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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 09:08 AM
Hi,

If you have problems with the high closure rate, then you can do the following:

1. Change your Zoom of view. When you are far away, zoom hardly in. You can see the opposites flight, angle, etc. That you need for hitting it beeing much faster. When you are closing, change to WIDE- view, or you will very often crash into your target. In wide, you first see only a dot, but from looking zoomed, you know your target's flight path. In WIDE view, wait until the target is great in your screen.


2. Your speed has only to be higher than that of your target and has not to be the absolute top speed of your plane.
In BnZ your Energy level has to be such higher, that you can allways decide, to break off the fight.
If you have a target turning on level, you have to watch it and estimate it's energy level, then you have to attack with a HIGHER, not the HIGHEST Energy level.
A plane flying full flat turns has a low energy level, so you don't have to boom at it with 700 Km/h

3. Smooth stick- handling. After shooting, don't pull too hard. The smoother your movements on the stick are, the less energy you bleed.
BnZ is a very smooth thing with wide vertical turns.

4. Use the prop pitch between 90% and 50% (Bf-109F - K)
Keep RpM between 1800 and 2800. 3000 and more should be met only for very short time. Throttle at 90% and Proppitch between 50% and 90%. All shorter than 90% (95% for example) bleeds only energy, even in a vertical Zoomclimb.
Change the proppitch, when the rpm falls below 2500. Then is the moment to switch one notch to a shorter Prop-position.



Morgenstern

The_Blue_Devil
06-15-2003, 09:55 AM
The true key to BnZ is one word.."ADVANTAGE." Always attack from above and with surprise..that way the bogie doesn't turn and spoil the bounce. Attack from the high six or above and in the sun. Always bounce at full speed and continue past the enemy at full speed. Hartmann said I begin an attack from full strength/speed and I evade in the same manner. If done correctly the enemy will die before he knows he was being attacked.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-15-2003, 11:02 AM
& you need speed. Pay attention to your radiator settings.
Before attacking you should have good altitude advantage & plenty of speed - & a cool engine! When you´ve reached the desired alt, first thing to do is to cool down the engine.
Open radiator & close it again when engine temp is ok. Automatic radiator control is not an option during combat as the radiator works as an airbrake. Close the radiator when engine temp is down & avoid using more than 100% power
- then you should not overheat.
Set your aim a few a/c lenghts in front of the target & keep it there until you are VERY close - never lose sight of you enemy & do not turn too hard. If your attack fails then flat out & start climbing again.

S!

M0NS



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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 01:25 PM
All good advice so far.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BnZ is "I might not kill you" BUT "You definately won't kill me" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Always attack the highest bandit
If you are not the highest, disengage - extend
Close your radiator on attack - less drag
After your pass, resist the temptation to loop (VVS Types can loop well)
Extend out of guns range first, if in the 190 roll and jink a little to throw off their aim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Once out of guns range perform a shallow pull-up to conserve speed and try to get back to your original altitude before attacking again.
Wear the enemy down and try and damage him, even if you don't outright kill the bandit damaging him will give you more of an advantage.

If the bandit dives DO NOT follow him, he is trying to get you into a Co-E situation - avoid!

If you are engaging 1 bandit and know you are safe then you can start yo-yo's to get the bandit into your gun envelope. A wide 45 degree climbing turn is good in the FW 190 and Bf109 - but be careful not to get down to his (lower) energy state.

BnZ works best when a pair of you (Rotte) can attack the bandit together. Either using double-attack (line abreast - both enegage simultaneously) or Loose-Deuce (1 attacks 1 covers). With LD (loose-deuce) one should attack the bandit, then (after ensuring the leader is clear) the 2nd aircraft attacks. This puts the bandit under great pressure. If the bandit decides to attack one of your ac then he will have to try and climb after it (as it extends) which will give you a classic Drag 'N' Bag situation /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif If he just keeps evading and breaking you can take your time and chew him up, eventually killing the bandit or forcing a crash-landing/bail-out.

JG5_UnKle

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 04:49 PM
Well like the others said:

high advantage
higher speed
don't turn if your enemy turns away, get up and try again.
use a plane with strong guns, BnZ in an Emil is not really useful cause you'll probably not destroy the enemy with one hit. FW190 is surely the best one. I like the A8 the 2MK version. You usually need only one hit.

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 04:50 PM
2 Easy Steps Bud:

First you BOOM then you ZOOM.

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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 07:24 PM
A lot of my BnZs end up with me at almost a 90 degree dive angle on the bogey I'm going after. Obviously this is quite a low percentage deflection shot.

Is there some manuever to bring your angle down, or when this happens, do you just pull up and try again?


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.

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:43 PM
Im new to B&Z as well having only flown the IL2 uptil now.

Now Im flying the Yaks, and after the inital stalling everytime I banked/turned my head or sneezed, I am able to go against 2 x HE111 with a fair success rate. Havn't moved on to a faster enemy yet as Im scared :-) My main tactic is to stay high and chop the throttle down to about 60% before rolling into the dive inverted (can't drop the nose quick enough the right way up). This way I maintain my speed without shaking the plane to bits. Must remember to increase speed after the dive tho.

I also noticed a huge increase in kills when I changed my narrowest Field of View (Delete key as default)from 35 degrees to 50, that way when I 'zoom' in on the enemy to see them without being too close.

Might try going against a fighter soon.



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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 08:52 PM
Gershy wrote:

- use a plane with strong guns, BnZ in an Emil is not
- really useful cause you'll probably not destroy the
- enemy with one hit.

Perhaps you mean the F2? Of the early 109s the Emil has the strongest armament. Two 20mm cannon plus the two 7.92mm MG. You get both those cannons and MGs on target with a good burst and you can cut a Sturmovik in half.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:41 AM
Morgenstern wrote:
3. Smooth stick- handling.

... guess doing b&z with only the keyboard wouldnt lead to a very great sucsess...?

Zayets
06-17-2003, 12:11 PM
I think you can't BnZ in offline mode against enemy fighters. With bombers is OK. I hve tryied that countless time. Once you are round .4 - .5 , they will break off. There's never a surprise for the AI fighters. They are always knowing that you re coming. BnZ with them can be some fun but only if they are already wasted their ammo. Otherwise don't even think about it. Bnz is a choice when you fight against human players in a "full real" server. Otherwise , everybody will spot you using external or icons. You can BnZ bombers AI , but there's no need , unless you wanna practice , you can come steady at their six aand shoot from .5 -.6.
Please don't understand me wrong , the effectiveness of BnZ maneuver is highly dependant on the FIRST PASS. If the opponent have a good climber and is an AI plane the odds are changed , you'll become the target. The only chance you'll have is that they would waste ammo. That's my impression about this.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:19 PM
Relax, I have the same problem too

I think the point of B&Z is that you stay alive longer and only occasionaly down something - certainly I do - then I get bored or respond to all of the "come back and fight me" stuff.

Why don't you try Boom and Boom instead?

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:22 PM
good to see a topic like this - I remember when I started flying, these were the topics of discussion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The temptation to follow a turning bogey after the dive is the biggest mistake you can make.

If you simply resist this urge, you will be bnz'ing and begin to learn. For me it's a matter of patience - instead of thinking "There he is! I have him so close, I know I can loop and get him!!!" Which will fail you nearly every time, think "He has just bled a bunch of energy to make that sharp turn - If I simply extend out a bit , I can hit him when I come back around with an advantage"

For me - that is what it is all about - the best time I've ever had is working with another pilot and bnz'ing on the enemies.

Try the p47 - it's fast and forces you to bnz by it's very nature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Better to have a slight angle attack than a steep one - if that is the case, you need to extend a bit and come in fast and gradual.

S!
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Message Edited on 06/17/0311:25AM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 02:17 PM
BnZ the BnZ-ers. Attack when they're most vulnerable.

You climb to an altitude above the highest BnZ-er and you observe his attacks on bandits below him. You fly a little bit higher than the altitude where he keeps topping out with his zoom climbs.

Ideally you make your attack (the boom part in your BnZ attack) when the BnZ-er is pointed straight up, hanging on his prop as he's looking back down over his shoulders. That is when the BnZ-er is slow and unmaneuverable. Even if he saw you and wanted to evade, there's not much he can do then.

Your attack doesn't even have to be a steep dive at high speed. You can intercept the straight up pointing BnZ-er while you are flying level yourself. Ideally the bottom of your attack dive should then coincide with the top of his zoom climb.

But always keep a sharp lookout for higher bandits then yourself and don't hesitate to disengage when you see one.
You can always come back later with more alt.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:03 PM
Boom and Zoom by Andy Bush from SimHQ

Part 1
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_024a.html

Part 2
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_025a.html

Part 3
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_026a.html

Links are listed at my website also.

FYI it is offensive tactic and not defensive as someone mentioned. It's the type of flying real life pilots did to stay alive. Getting into dogfights had a real good chance of getting you killed. Not a lot of fun for some folks though if you don't get into one. :-)

Tailspin
Tailspin's Tales
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm