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Celeon999
01-22-2007, 12:49 PM
I wanted to post this in your "Der Untergang" review thread but...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Comparing actors and real characters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgYS0SOq380)


The most astounding are Himmler and Keitel.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Clones maybe ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

MarkSynthesis
01-22-2007, 01:12 PM
Goering didn't look very close at all, in my personal opinion, but some like Himmler and Eva Braun seemed quite close.

Messervy
01-22-2007, 01:33 PM
Not as lookalike but the depiction of Goebels was also very good.
Particulary the way he spoke.

And Speer was also very good, as he had that calm and distant attitude.

Celeon999
01-22-2007, 01:52 PM
Personally i think that the actor playing Goebbels (Ulrich Matthes) didnt looked anything like him.

The voice and style of speaking was indeed good though.

But he would fit Rudolf Heß much better than Goebbels http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Look for yourself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Some work on the eyebrows and voila ! Heß is back ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Rudolf Heß

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0f/Rudolf_He%C3%9F.jpg/250px-Rudolf_He%C3%9F.jpg

Ulrich Matthes

http://www.weltimkino.de/medien/images/thumbnails/4254_160.jpg

But who performes Goebbels very good is Sylvester Groth.

He plays Goebbels in the new comedy movie "Mein Führer" (which isnt sooo good afterall by the way) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://files.koeln.de/bildergalerien/albums/uploads/kino/mein-fuehrer_galerie/mein-fuehrer11.jpg

Messervy
01-22-2007, 02:10 PM
With quick photoshop job (the jaw included) he could indeed pass as Rudolf the looney. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/Messervy/UlrichMatthesasHess-1.jpg

Celeon999
01-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Messervy:
With quick photoshop job (the jaw included) he could indeed pass as Rudolf the looney. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/Messervy/UlrichMatthesasHess-1.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VikingGrandad
01-22-2007, 05:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

klcarroll
01-22-2007, 05:51 PM
Hey Celeon;

On this side of the Atlantic, the whole Rudolf Hess thing is still something of a "puzzlement":

What is the current German spin on the whole strange affair???

Goose_Green
01-22-2007, 05:58 PM
Watching that brief YouTube vid is quite scary - some of those actors & actresses look very close to the real people. Have to agree with Goering tho - didn't look like him at all. Goebbels is very close but the actor is too guant and skinny - his eyes look as if they will pop out. Hitler played by Bruno Ganz is quite close too.

As usual Celeon you deliver that knock out punch - excellent post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Celeon999
01-23-2007, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Hey Celeon;

On this side of the Atlantic, the whole Rudolf Hess thing is still something of a "puzzlement":

What is the current German spin on the whole strange affair???


What do you mean exactly ?

klcarroll
01-23-2007, 07:25 AM
Well, ....In the U.S. there are still more theories about the real intent of his 1941 flight than there are about the "Bermuda Triangle".

....Also, many still wonder why he was the only prisoner in Spandau for the last 21 years of his life. That extended imprisonment, after Baldur von Schirach and Albert Speer were released in 1966, seems bizarre. (To say the least.) What were the Four Powers (particularly the Soviets) so worried about??

...And finally, his death by suicide at the age of 93 seems to be in keeping with the whole bizarre tale.

I was wondering what the current German public opinion is on these three points.

Messervy
01-23-2007, 07:39 AM
What were the Four Powers (particularly the Soviets) so worried about??

One of the explanations is that it was the only way they could maintain military presence in West Berlin.

Celeon999
01-23-2007, 08:47 AM
There are some theories regarding his flight to Scotland.

The most plausible theory is that Heß wanted to contact the Duke of Hamilton (from which he believed he would be the head of the british peace movement) to negotiate a cease-fire with him.

Some historians claim that Hitler ordered this strange undertaking but that does not match with the facts.

Hitler was furious as he recieved word of this. He had Heß's adjutant arrested.

Officialy the nazi government declared Heß to have become mad.


Yes there are still some mysteries surrounding his imprisonment in Spandau and his death there.

He was found guilty of "crimes against peace" and participating in "planning and preparation of aggressive war"

He was given a life sentence for this (this was the first controversy as many people believed that this was too harsh for his minor role in all this)

Like the other inmates , Heß asked to be released after 20 years but this was rejected by veto of the soviets. This was also criticised (even by Winston Churchill who wrote that Heß deeds were more a result of a mental problem than intention and 20 years were more than enough for him)

Heß died in the Spandau prison in 1987, officialy he commited suicide.

After the official autopsy by the british doctor James Cameron , Heß family ordered a second autopsy which results greatly differ from the things Cameron wrote into his report.

This was the beginning of the theory that Heß was killed by the british SAS although nobody could ever come forward with an explanation on why the SAS should kill the over 90 years old Heß.



His son Wolf Rüdiger Heß founded the "Rudolf-Heß-Society" in 1989.

Its intention is to correct the historical picture of Rudolf Heß. Wolf Rüdiger Heß died in 2001 and since that time his wife leads the organisation.

The secret british files on Rudolf Heß will be released in 2017 and maybe answer some questions.

Kaleun1961
01-23-2007, 11:43 AM
Seeing as how this thread title was addressed to me personally, I must post here to say thank you to Celeon. As regards Hess, I suspect there is some dirty secret under the Russians' bed that they didn't wish to be revealed, or perhaps they were simply being vindictive. Maybe they thought Hess went to Britain to persuade the UK to crusade with the Germans against the Bolsheviks? Stalin through the course of the war was always suspicious that the West would sign a separate peace with Germany, allowing the Germans to then throw their entire war effort against them. Whatever the reason, it is odd that the seemingly feeble minded Hess was the one to be most harshly punished [of those imprisoned, which of course does not include those who were executed. Speer, as the brilliant minister for armaments, caused far more damage to the Soviets than did Hess, who was already before the onset of the war marginalized and outmaneuvered by the ambitious Himmler, Goering, Bormann et al. Speer served, if I recall correctly, 20 years? Yet it is Hess who truly served "life." Why?

Celeon999
01-23-2007, 12:18 PM
Well, the soviets were'nt happy with any of the sentences implied by the nuremberg trails that were not death ones.

I remember a docu in which one of the american or (was he british ?) i cant remember, well he was one of the people involved into the trail on the allied side and said that he spoke with the soviet judge Nikitchenko and his alternate Volchkov before it began.

Nikitchenko asked him how long the trail will take because he has other important things to do.

He found that to be an odd question because nobody could knew that at this time.

So he said "I have no idea , i dont dont even know who long it will take to see all the evidence."

Nikitchenko laughed and said "Yes, yes of course" "I hope it wont take too long." "We should hang them as fast as possible and then go to dinner, im hungry"

And at this point he realized why Nikitchenko asked at all.

He thought that this would be a fast show trail and that the decision to sentence everyone to death has already been made.

He propbaly thought that this would work just like the trails he knew from home and that the comment with "seeing the evidence" was just a joke. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

klcarroll
01-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Wow! ......That's an interesting insight into Soviet "Justice" in the postwar period!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Celeon999
01-23-2007, 12:41 PM
Wikipedia



One of the charges included conspiracy to commit aggression against Poland in 1939.

The Secret Protocols of the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of August 23, 1939, proposed the partition of Poland between the Germans and the Soviets; however, Soviet leaders were not tried for being part of the same conspiracy.


For logical reasons http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kaleun1961
01-23-2007, 12:49 PM
The ironic tragedy of WW2: The war was started to save Poland's independance, and at the end of the war Poland is enslaved.

Stingray-65
01-23-2007, 08:59 PM
Sadly, Soviet "justice" @ the end of WWII was a circus. They often had their verdicts long before there was ever a trial. A good example of this is in Erich Hartmann's biography wherein details his Soviet conviction as a war criminal:

Page 234
In the so-called courtroom, behind a rough wooden desk sat the Russian war judge, a slab-faced man with thinning hair and a fat belly. Erich was given his charge sheet, which already had his "twenty-five years at hard labor" sentence written on it and signed by the judge. A group of perhaps fifty Russian civilians sat in the courtroom watching Soviet legal apparatus in action. When he heard his named called, Erich stepped up to the bench.
"I want to know why I am charged with war crimes, and the specific nature of the charges," said Erich
The judge looked at him beadily.
"Yes, you are Hartmann, the Black Devil. The great pilot, yes? The big war criminal, yes?"
"The great pilot, yes, perhaps. War criminal, no."
The judge opened Erich's dossier and ran a blunt forefinger down an index.
"From this," he said, "it is quite obvious that you are a war criminal."
He went leafing through the dossier until he found what he was looking for. He looked up at Erich triumphantly.
"Charge One. You participated in the illegal, brutal and unprovoked attack on the Soviet Union, and destroyed a great quantity of Soviet war material, including at least three hundred and forty-five expensive Russian aircraft."
The judge was warming to his administration of justice.
"Charge Two. In the central sector of the Russian Front on 23 May 1943, you attacked a bread factory. Before your attack, the bakery was producing sixteen tons of bread daily for the Soviet people. After your attack, the factory was able to produce only one ton of bread."
The judge paused briefly to glare at Erich.
"Charge Three. In a village near Briansk, you killed seven hundred and eighty Russian civilians, including women and children...."
Erich could no longer contain himself.
"Am I permitted to defend myself against these charges?"
The judge smiled icily.
"Of course. We are not Fascists in Russia. We have justice here."
"I shot down Russian aircraft, just as your pilots shot down German aircraft, as a soldier of Germany. It was my duty. That is not a war crime."
"And what about the destruction of the bakery?"
The judge was gouging away abstractedly at his fingernails. Erich shook his head in incredulity, but continued his defense.
"I never shot at or in any way attacked any bread factory. Where was the building located?"
The judge gave a bored sigh. He scrabbled briefly in the dossier.
"In a village near Smolensk," he said.
"But that is nowhere near where I served. That was in the area defended by Fighter Wing 54. I was with Fighter Wing 52 on the southern sector of the front."
The judge nodded knowingly.
"Yes, oh yes. All the war criminals were somewhere else when the crimes were committed. Or so they say."
Erich stubbornly continued his defense.
"Charge Three is absolutely false. I never killed any Russian civilians, let alone children. How can you possibly accuse me of slaughtering Russian civilians on such a scale?"
The slab-faced judge plunged again into the dossier.
"We don't just accuse you, Hartmann. We prove you did it. We have justice here. Under the Soviet system of justice there are no innocent people in our jails."
"Well, then, prove to me how I killed seven hundred and eighty civilians. I engaged only in aerial combat, against other armed aircraft manned by your soldiers."
The judge twisted a little in his seat. He picked up his gavel and waved it at the Russian civilians sitting in the room.
"Take these people out. Clear the court. They have seen enough of these war criminals."
The judge pored over the dossier again while the guards herded the Russian spectators out the door. When they had left, the judge looked up, ready to proceed.
"Now, Hartmann. Do you know how many rounds of ammunition your Me-109 fighter carried?"
"No, not exactly. About three hundred rounds for each of the two machine guns and about one hundred and fifty rounds for the twenty-millimeter cannon...."
The judge was reading now from the dossier.
"....with the eleven hundred and twenty rounds of ammunition carried in his aircraft. Major Hartmann did therefore brutally murder seven hundred and eighty innocent Russian civilians--"
Erich broke in on the absurd recital.
"But I fired only at Russian aircraft in the air. Don't you understand that?"
The judge nodded.
"I do understand that. I understand perfectly. But you don't seem to understand that when you fired your guns all the bullets did not go into the other aircraft. They fell to the ground. There they killed our innocent civilian people. Seven hundred and eighty of them. You see how easy it is to prove that you are a war criminal?"
Erich smiled resignedly at the sheer nonsense of the proceeding. The judge burst out laughing. He threw his head back and roared, his double chin jumping like jelly.

Page 224 - 225
The man who tries to meet irrational individuals with rational arguments is doomed to fail in his quest for reason. The perverse world they inhabit is upside down and back-to-front -- a negative of the world of normal men. In Erich Hartmann's own words:
"The Russians -- by which I mean the NKVD psychopaths -- have a mentality that no rational Western-educated individual can comprehend. You can kill your father there, and confess it to the police, and they may confine you for two years. If you steal something, that is inconsequential. The Russians laugh if you don't steal something. But if you say that the American Chevrolet is better than the Russian Ziss car, then you will get twenty-five years in jail. If you say Stalin, or Khrushchev, or Brezhnev is a bad leader -- whichever one of them happens to be leading Russia at the time -- then they will hang you or give you life imprisonment. Many of our prison mates were Russian citizens who had violated current Red dogma. They were men with gumption and reason, but the NKVD ensured that they stayed out of circulation."

Joyrider1953
01-24-2007, 04:09 PM
As an aside, my mother was on duty as a "Special" [auxiliary policewoman] at Maryhill Barracks in Glasgow the night Hess landed. She helped to process his paperwork as the male officers locked Hess in a cell until someone from intelligence showed up. She remembered the girls in the office going down the hall to ogle "the Nazi" and said they thought he was rather handsome. I thought that was an odd comment, until I realized that she always said I was handsome too. Before hearing this story, I had written her compliments off as nice motherly bias, but thanks to Hess I learned it was simply my mother's bad taste in men.

Celeon999
01-25-2007, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by Joyrider1953:
As an aside, my mother was on duty as a "Special" [auxiliary policewoman] at Maryhill Barracks in Glasgow the night Hess landed. She helped to process his paperwork as the male officers locked Hess in a cell until someone from intelligence showed up. She remembered the girls in the office going down the hall to ogle "the Nazi" and said they thought he was rather handsome. I thought that was an odd comment, until I realized that she always said I was handsome too. Before hearing this story, I had written her compliments off as nice motherly bias, but thanks to Hess I learned it was simply my mother's bad taste in men.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Look at Goebbels. Not exactly a Brad Pitt either.

But nontheless he had lots of girlfriends for some odd reason. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif