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Dawnfang
12-08-2007, 02:42 AM
Hey all,

I was wondering, is it possible to visit the HaKotel HaMa'aravi, or simply The Kotel (the western wall from the second temple period (516BCE-70CE)? It must be somewhere in the Old City of Jerusalem near the Mosk dome, but I can't seem to find it. Anyone?

kew414
12-08-2007, 02:57 AM
Of course you can! You can also find the Empire State Building right next to the cathedral http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Sorry, I have no idea if that building is in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Well, if you know where it is and what it looks like etc. and can't find it, I don't think it's in the game...

Dawnfang
12-08-2007, 03:01 AM
Well, it wouldn't be that silly a thought, since Ubisoft said the cities in the game resemble the cities as they used to be (sort of). So, I wouldn't be suprised to find it, eventhough I haven't found it till now.

Anyone else? I know it must be somewhere near the mosk.

kew414
12-08-2007, 03:09 AM
Hmm.. Well good luck with finding it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I'd look, but reloading is a pain in the backside >_<

ACfanboy12
12-08-2007, 11:53 AM
Well, there must be something wrong with UBI's records, because Jerusalem (using the scale in the game) is about twice as big as they made it.

It an iner garden, and an outer garden, where there was an Oasis, and some very important buildings are "missing"

AirRon_2K7
12-08-2007, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by ACfanboy12:
Well, there must be something wrong with UBI's records, because Jerusalem (using the scale in the game) is about twice as big as they made it.

It an iner garden, and an outer garden, where there was an Oasis, and some very important buildings are "missing"

Really? I'm so suprised that Ubi didn't make it exactly as it was. Gosh. Damn. Darn it.

MDS_Geist
12-08-2007, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by ACfanboy12:
Well, there must be something wrong with UBI's records, because Jerusalem (using the scale in the game) is about twice as big as they made it.

It an iner garden, and an outer garden, where there was an Oasis, and some very important buildings are "missing"

Since the game isn't required to be historically accurate, this shouldn't be so surprising. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would imagine the interest was in creating a quality game rather than trying to recreate Jerusalem from a millenia ago.

ACfanboy12
12-08-2007, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by MDS_Geist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfanboy12:
Well, there must be something wrong with UBI's records, because Jerusalem (using the scale in the game) is about twice as big as they made it.

It an iner garden, and an outer garden, where there was an Oasis, and some very important buildings are "missing"

Since the game isn't required to be historically accurate, this shouldn't be so surprising. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would imagine the interest was in creating a quality game rather than trying to recreate Jerusalem from a millenia ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I love your avatar >.>

I think they didnt reacreate the garden thing is because you would be leaving the actual city... I dont know... maybe there werent sufficiant records that actually said it had a garden, or oasis. I was actually there though, I am very certain, there were references to people coming to the garden to prey, and berry loved ones (and I think Kindgom Of Heaven shows the big oasis thing too).

MDS_Geist
12-08-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by ACfanboy12:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MDS_Geist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACfanboy12:
Well, there must be something wrong with UBI's records, because Jerusalem (using the scale in the game) is about twice as big as they made it.

It an iner garden, and an outer garden, where there was an Oasis, and some very important buildings are "missing"

Since the game isn't required to be historically accurate, this shouldn't be so surprising. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would imagine the interest was in creating a quality game rather than trying to recreate Jerusalem from a millenia ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I love your avatar >.>

I think they didnt reacreate the garden thing is because you would be leaving the actual city... I dont know... maybe there werent sufficiant records that actually said it had a garden, or oasis. I was actually there though, I am very certain, there were references to people coming to the garden to prey, and berry loved ones (and I think Kindgom Of Heaven shows the big oasis thing too). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks.

Kingdom of Heaven was nowhere close to historically accurate.

Jerusalem had a number of gardens, but in terms of an "oasis" you're likely referring to the Shiloach, a spring downhill from the city.

Dawnfang
12-09-2007, 02:41 AM
Shiloach or not, where is my Western Wall? It wasn't that hard to incorporate in the game right? It's just a wall!

MDS_Geist
12-09-2007, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Dawnfang:
Shiloach or not, where is my Western Wall? It wasn't that hard to incorporate in the game right? It's just a wall!

Well, it's really quite a large wall. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I haven't had a chance to pick the game up yet, but when I do I'll look for it. If you can go to the Dome of the Rock try to go over the Eastern wall. Should be there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ronmossad
12-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Bump...

So was this ever addressed? I just finished the game the other night and after going back and forth to where the wall "should" be - namely facing the al Aqsa mosque...there is a giant wall that looks different than the rest of the walls surrounding the Temple Mount structure *POSSIBLE SPOILER* (the wall where Majd Addin is running his little execution party). *END SPOILER* However, it seems to be referred to "Solomon's Temple" or something of the sort.

In fact, there's no mention of the Western Wall anywhere in this game. So I'm guessing that's not it (not only because it looks nothing like it at all whereas all the other landmarks look pretty identical).

So the question is, was this something they kept out of the game because it would be difficult to do? Or was it something they kept out for some religion-related reason?

If there's a way we could get an answer from an actual employee of ubisoft, that would rule.

Oh and the game is unreal...I'm telling all my friends to get it. And the ending has me doing more historical research than I ever did in HS. lol

MDS_Geist
12-31-2007, 11:30 AM
There is no reason to leave it out for religious reasons. Calling it Solomon's Temple makes a certain amount of sense given that the 2nd Temple was built where the 1st Temple once stood. It's not accurate, but this is a video game and not a history book.

ronmossad
12-31-2007, 11:43 AM
I hear that...the only thing is that the Western Wall was never part of Solomon's Temple...it was built as part of the restoration of the second Temple by Herod. But you are correct it is just a video game and not a history book.

I guess my only qualm is that they did such a good job of recreating the city of Jerusalem but not the Western Wall. I've been there a lot of times and they even nailed the mountains that surround the city - I was blown away the first time I saw it. I just don't understand why they made the wall in the game look so different.

I mean it's clear that's where it's supposed to be and the place looks different than the rest of the wall that surrounds the Dome of the Rock complex (just like in real life)...I just don't understand why they couldn't make it an accurate depiction - since they did such an amazing job with everything else.

DreamerM
12-31-2007, 12:37 PM
How old is the Kotel?

If it came along more recently then the 1100s, then it wouldn't be in the game.

According to Jade and co. they had things like old city plans to go off of, so my guess is if it was there back then it's there in the game.

ronmossad
01-01-2008, 05:48 PM
Well it's supposed to be a remnant of the 2nd Temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. I'm not sure what condition it was in, but archeologists say at least the bottom few rows of stones are approximately 2000 years old. So it should have def been there during the Crusades. Although it is possible they didn't refer to it as the "Western" or "Wailing" Wall until later...

MDS_Geist
01-01-2008, 10:34 PM
The Kotel is mostly around 2,000 years old. It was around in the time period the game is set in. It was referred to as Hakotel HaMaaravi in Later Tannaitic as well as Amoraic literature. It's distinct appearance is due to the Herodian dressing of the stone, with each stone having it's own border cut into it around the edges. In the time period the game was set in, the Kotel was in rather better condition than it was sixty years ago.

Perhaps the programmers did leave it out to avoid some religious tensions by having to give it a name. But given that this game generally involves Christians and Muslims, they don't attach any particular significance to the Wall at that point in time.

Dawnfang
01-02-2008, 10:43 AM
Wow, nice to see my thread is alive again! Thanks for the reply guys.

Anyway, my own explanation for the missing wall is the fact that it might be offending jews if you were able to climb it. After all, it is some sort of holy relic and climbing it could be considered wrong. However, we CAN climb the temple dome, so there goes my explanation of it being offending to climb holy building...

So... no answer yet...

ronmossad
01-02-2008, 08:32 PM
I'm not sure Jews would be more up in arms about climbing the Western Wall than Muslims would about the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque. Which isn't a shot at Muslims, just that I don't think there'd be a problem with it or at the very least I can't see how it would be any more offensive than anything already included in the game.

MDS_Geist
01-02-2008, 10:28 PM
Climbing it would not be offensive to Jews. It was the wall to the outer courtyard and has no inherent holiness. It is a "relic" only in the sense that it is all that remains of the 2nd Temple, beyond what is buried on the Temple Mount itself. Since the Waqf is actively destroying whatever it can we don't know what else is left.

The only issue I can think of is that some Muslims would choose to take offense at calling it the Western Wall since they deny that there were two Temples on the Temple Mount. Those extremists would prefer to call it the "Al-Buraq Wall" where al-Hakim and other later Israel-based Muslim rulers claimed that Muhammad tied his magical flying horse Buraq.

Dawnfang
01-03-2008, 07:43 AM
Wtf is a Waqf?

MDS_Geist
01-03-2008, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Dawnfang:
Wtf is a Waqf?

The Waqf if is the Muslim organization that the Israelis gave control of the Temple Mount to in 1967 as a gesture of peace and goodwill.

ronmossad
01-03-2008, 04:48 PM
Geist - I think you hit the nail on the head with the Al-Buraq stuff. I spent 16 years in Orthodox yeshivas and can't for the life of me think of why any Jews, Orthodox or not, would be offended to see the wall or hear it referenced in the game.