WHAT A GRAIL STRUCTURE SHOULD DO/GIVE? [Archive]

Monteniger

07-16-2005, 01:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
A grail should not do much.
or maybe no grail, just awesome artifacts in the obilisks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.There should be a grail in h5 and the h3 way.Maybe way of getting the grail should change - you could listen to rumors in the tavern and start exploring and it should be heavily guarded.Or you must work out some riddle that mapmaker makes or smth.No diging http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And there are already many buildings where you fight creatures and get artifacts and resourses so there is no need of degradeing obelisks.

Polaris2013

07-16-2005, 07:58 PM

I think the "grail" should be radically altered.

1) Obelisks may show locations of multiple digging sites. One way of doing this having multiple types of obelisks just like there are multiple types of teleporters; however, there are other solutions which also work.

2) Each digging site's contents are fully scriptable by the mapmaker, ie. it would be like picking up a Pandora's Box. The mapmaker knows which which obelisks map to which digging site. Digging sites still have the potential to be in either random or fixed locations (at map start). If nothing is specified, the default contents of each digging site is 1 random, non-banned relic artifact and is placed on a random walkable tile. There are no special objects which may only be obtained from digging.

edit:
One additional point, through the course of campaigns and packaged maps, some of the obelisk types could be used as "lesser" obelisks, by convention. These obelisks would guide to less valuable digging sites, creating a precedent for mapmakers. Although nothing need be special about these obelisk types, by convention it will be expected that they lead to less valuable rewards. This creates tiered obelisk values which may be ignored if a map calls for it.

NailagCiad

07-17-2005, 01:40 AM

Why didn't you just say that it should be done as in H4 and be done with it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BLC_Sky

07-17-2005, 01:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monteniger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
A grail should not do much.
or maybe no grail, just awesome artifacts in the obilisks... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree.There should be a grail in h5 and the h3 way.Maybe way of getting the grail should change - you could listen to rumors in the tavern and start exploring and it should be heavily guarded.Or you must work out some riddle that mapmaker makes or smth.No diging http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And there are already many buildings where you fight creatures and get artifacts and resourses so there is no need of degradeing obelisks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can defeat heavently defending, you don't need a grail anymore...

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

07-17-2005, 08:28 AM

Hmmmm...what "should" a grail do? Well, let's see....first off, the grail should be fairly difficult to aqcuire. The h3 method on this would be fine. Secondly, the results of installing the grail in your town....I always thought it should increase your town creature growth rate. I look at it like this heavenly artifact will draw more supporters to your cause. So with that in mind, I think it should also increase your diplomacy skill as well. If your heroes don't have diplo...then it acts as basic diplomacy. Otherwise it's a 20% bump to your skill in it. The increase in income is also a must. Otherwise, these extra troops you'll be getting can't be purchased. I don't, however, want it to be such a big bump in income like it was in H3. It should be a healthy increase, but not enough to buy ALL the added troops due to the grail. In other words...if the grail increases troop production in such a way that you'd get 1 extra titan, 2 extra nagas, 3 extra genies, etc...THESE troops will total "x" amount of gold. The increase in income from the grail should be LESS than "x" amount. You need to still have choices to make even after the grail.

I don't, however, want to see game breaking features for the grail. Yes, I'm talking about the skyship (view all), the Aurora Borialis (all spells), and even the Diety of Fire (all week of imps). The extra increases should ALL be town-based bonuses. Increases to the garrisoned troops stats is a decent idea here. But you get the idea.

I also don't want to see the multiple obelisk configuration from h4. There should only be ONE grail treasure. If you want something else, put it in a quest or a pandora's box.

simon_cowell

07-17-2005, 10:47 AM

One thing about grail I didn't like from previous homms is that grail was completely useless to the army that carried it until they bring it to the town and build grail structure.
Yet the grail, the holy grail, that most of us think of when the "grail" is mentioned, was extremely useful to the army that posessed it. It is told to make the army virtually undefeatable. While we don't want undefeatable armies, it would be nice if grail was seriosly boosting army's power by 1) maxing morale and luck 2) completely healing all units after each turn 3) reducing effects of anemy's spells 4) giving one "divine" uber spell. Etc.

BLC_Sky

07-17-2005, 11:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by simon_cowell:
One thing about grail I didn't like from previous homms is that grail was completely useless to the army that carried it until they bring it to the town and build grail structure.
Yet the grail, the holy grail, that most of us think of when the "grail" is mentioned, was extremely useful to the army that posessed it. It is told to make the army virtually undefeatable. While we don't want undefeatable armies, it would be nice if grail was seriosly boosting army's power by 1) maxing morale and luck 2) completely healing all units after each turn 3) reducing effects of anemy's spells 4) giving one "divine" uber spell. Etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You want to do one of these things, or all?

grotesc

07-18-2005, 09:47 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Hmmmm...what "should" a grail do? Well, let's see....first off, the grail should be fairly difficult to aqcuire. The h3 method on this would be fine.[QUOTE]

In my opinion, in H3 was easy to FIND the grail. You only have to go to two or three obelisks to find it. And in some cases, just one! the condition is to have at least 60% of the map discovered, wich is not a such a difficult task in a multiplayer game. The real trouble is the logistics that implys, digging for it and leaving your castle vulnerable to your opponent. But finding it in my opinion is easy and this I want it changed. Harder is better!

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

07-18-2005, 01:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by grotesc:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Hmmmm...what "should" a grail do? Well, let's see....first off, the grail should be fairly difficult to aqcuire. The h3 method on this would be fine.[QUOTE]

In my opinion, in H3 was easy to FIND the grail. You only have to go to two or three obelisks to find it. And in some cases, just one! the condition is to have at least 60% of the map discovered, wich is not a such a difficult task in a multiplayer game. The real trouble is the logistics that implys, digging for it and leaving your castle vulnerable to your opponent. But finding it in my opinion is easy and this I want it changed. Harder is better! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I agree with you. When I said the H3 method would be fine, I was referring to the method. Meaning one set of obelisks, not multiple configurations. Simply have each obelisk reveal LESS of the puzzlemap. Or have MORE puzzle pieces. Another possibility would be to have some requirements to visiting obelisks. Like your hero must be a certain level, or you have to pay something, but simply revealing less information would be the easiest solution.

Another possibility would be this. In order to dig up the grail you must have a specific artifact...the grail shovel. This shovel is acquired by visiting all the obelisks on the map. Just an idea. :O)

Leto_II

07-18-2005, 03:37 PM

I like the grail from h4..I also enjoyed the multiple obelisks

grotesc

07-19-2005, 02:23 AM

A grail shovel?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif How about a metal detector? Just kidding...!

the idea is that finding the grail should be really hard. You should really use your intelect in finding it, prove to have skill in battle and prove also that you deserve that extra bonus that the grail shall give you.

Rumors in tavern http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif, hero requirements http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif,a puzzle map with lots of pieces to discover http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, riddles at the obelisks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif are good ideas!

But not the GRAIL SHOVEL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

d_a_n_u_t

07-19-2005, 02:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by grotesc:

the idea is that finding the grail should be really hard. You should really use your intelect in finding it, prove to have skill in battle and prove also that you deserve that extra bonus that the grail shall give you.

Rumors in tavern http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif, hero requirements http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif,a puzzle map with lots of pieces to discover http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, riddles at the obelisks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif are good ideas!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
i totally agree...the grail should be "the ultimate structure"..the one that can give you a higher chance to win the game, so you will have to prove yourself in order to get it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BLC_Sky

07-19-2005, 02:58 AM

In the time you are looking for the grail, ill kick your but! And take over your castle...

znork

07-19-2005, 03:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
In the time you are looking for the grail, ill kick your but! And take over your castle... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try me.

It intesting that when you find the grail that the army carring it gets nothing. They shold at a minimum get full moral. I would hope that finding the grail would boost the tropps a littel. But what shold the grail be it could boost youre hero giving him infinet knowlege. Giving him 10 levels or somthing like that. Mybe he becoms imortal. The grail dosent have to be staue in the town. It can be like a libbrey and obilisk for the hero. The holy grail in old lore was suposed to give eternal life. Making the hero imortal, meaing if he loosens the battle he pops up in youre town. But in modern lore the grail is information, give him levels and power.

BLC_Sky

07-19-2005, 03:28 AM

znork

07-19-2005, 03:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by znork:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
In the time you are looking for the grail, ill kick your but! And take over your castle... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try me.

It intesting that when you find the grail that the army carring it gets nothing. They shold at a minimum get full moral. I would hope that finding the grail would boost the tropps a littel. But what shold the grail be it could boost youre hero giving him infinet knowlege. Giving him 10 levels or somthing like that. Mybe he becoms imortal. The grail dosent have to be staue in the town. It can be like a libbrey and obilisk for the hero. The holy grail in old lore was suposed to give eternal life. Making the hero imortal, meaing if he loosens the battle he pops up in youre town. But in modern lore the grail is information, give him levels and power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 levels is much... very much. You can dig up the grail with 7 heroes in your army, and they all go 10 level +... Or lets say you got a level 27 hero, he will be suddently level 37.

About the popup in castle thing, if you lose, your enemy gets al your artifacts... The grail is an artifact, so he won't be imortal anymore... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ist just ides i get youre point on balancing maybe a fix number of xp insted.

and if the hero is imortal he dosent lose the artifacts. It the grail no som smal time artifact.

BLC_Sky

07-19-2005, 03:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by znork:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by znork:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BLC_Sky:
In the time you are looking for the grail, ill kick your but! And take over your castle... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try me.

It intesting that when you find the grail that the army carring it gets nothing. They shold at a minimum get full moral. I would hope that finding the grail would boost the tropps a littel. But what shold the grail be it could boost youre hero giving him infinet knowlege. Giving him 10 levels or somthing like that. Mybe he becoms imortal. The grail dosent have to be staue in the town. It can be like a libbrey and obilisk for the hero. The holy grail in old lore was suposed to give eternal life. Making the hero imortal, meaing if he loosens the battle he pops up in youre town. But in modern lore the grail is information, give him levels and power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 levels is much... very much. You can dig up the grail with 7 heroes in your army, and they all go 10 level +... Or lets say you got a level 27 hero, he will be suddently level 37.

About the popup in castle thing, if you lose, your enemy gets al your artifacts... The grail is an artifact, so he won't be imortal anymore... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ist just ides i get youre point on balancing maybe a fix number of xp insted.

and if the hero is imortal he dosent lose the artifacts. It the grail no som smal time artifact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You lose relic artifact after you have been defeaten... And those are also not 'som' smal time artifacts...

znork

07-19-2005, 03:51 AM

Do you mean defeted in loose alle youre towns. The relic is lost withe the hero who had it no more grail.

If you meand defeted in i lost the battele. Then the relic saves you so you dont loose all the items. Or mayb you loos alle youre item expet the grail.

BLC_Sky

07-19-2005, 03:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by znork:
Do you mean defeted in loose alle youre towns. The relic is lost withe the hero who had it no more grail.

If you meand defeted in i lost the battele. Then the relic saves you so you dont loose all the items. Or mayb you loos alle youre item expet the grail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ment the bold part

znork

07-19-2005, 04:06 AM

Ok.
1 The grail by som magcial means when you are deffeted removes you body withe alle youre items to youre castele and lets you live.

or

2 it just save you mening you loose alle youre items except the grail. It can be like a tatoo or somthing the enemy hero cant loot.

BLC_Sky

07-19-2005, 04:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by znork:
Ok.
1 The grail by som magcial means when you are deffeted removes you body withe alle youre items to youre castele and lets you live.

or

2 it just save you mening you loose alle youre items except the grail. It can be like a tatoo or somthing the enemy hero cant loot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tatoo idea is cool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

memetics

07-20-2005, 03:00 AM

The "holy grail" phrase is figurative - not literally the mythic christian version of the holy grail of their christ. The phrase means something like "that which is the ultimate treasure." Anyway, I don't remember it's being called "holy" in Heroes - it can be unholy, too, right? (Depending on who finds it.)

I like the Heroes 3 idea of having it installed in a town, but I also like the idea of having to carry it around with you. That way, it can be taken from you, as well.

Whatever the grail is, it should give something unique depending on the town (or hero) type. It shouldn't be totally unbalancing, but it should give an advantage that is commensurate with the risk and time it takes to find.

I mentioned in the other thread ('THE GRAIL, THE HOLY GRAIL, THE MIGHTY GRAIL') another idea for finding the grail: that you'd gather clues as to its location, and then you'd have to piece together the "puzzle" in that way. Clues could be generic, then have specific info. filled in, like: "Two days' journey north of Castle Anthrax," or "in the cursed land of the Necromancers," which would work in a random map, or they could be designed specifically for specific maps: "Dig three paces south of here to find your next clue." Clues could be combined with scraps of maps, too. The point is that there are more-interesting and challenging and (dare I say) fun ways that this can be done than just the Heroes 3 way.

I agree that if it becomes a structure in a town, the grail should give you more recruits and more money, along with some other special attribute - preferably NOT just related to town defense. But I think I'd like the idea of it being an uber-Relic artifact that a hero has to carry around: it's something that weaker armies can use to turn the tide of the war, which would make it worth hunting for - but it also could make the more-powerful armies undefeatable. And it can be taken from the hero (with the right force and strategy). Such are the risks and rewards of the grail.

But I'd also be happy with no grail object.

If it's just going to give you gold or experience, then it's a Pandora's Box. The grail should be something different.

And now for something completely different...

digibruce

07-25-2005, 05:26 PM

Because I always played hyper-aggressively in H3 and using all the "suspect" techniques (projecting force using hero chains, working the turn order and weekly growth) and copious reloading - making the game more of a strategy puzzle game than a realistic strategy game - I never, ever, ever built a grail structure.

That goes double for multiplayer - with aggressive play, the game is over well before anyone gets closed to building a grail structure. That is, if you ever get that far before you run out of (real) time.

Salventus

07-25-2005, 05:51 PM

I think a Grail Structure should permenently give all your units where ever they are on the adventure map maximum moral. Grail structures aren't suppose to be something magical it's like a statue and should be like a symbol of a "God" and should fill a role of worship.

grotesc

07-26-2005, 12:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by digibruce:
Because I always played hyper-aggressively in H3 and using all the "suspect" techniques (projecting force using hero chains, working the turn order and weekly growth) and copious reloading - making the game more of a strategy puzzle game than a realistic strategy game - I never, ever, ever built a grail structure.

That goes double for multiplayer - with aggressive play, the game is over well before anyone gets closed to building a grail structure. That is, if you ever get that far before you run out of (real) time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right, but in some cases, this aggresive play is fruitless in a multiplayer match with a competent opponent. And when you must move to plan B, the grail is an option!

Power_Lich

07-26-2005, 01:35 PM

Maybe not The Grail, maybe... Source of domination, A Wonder... I don't know, but it always makes me think of the biblical cup (which rather would destroy Necropolis/Inferno than enforce it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) But this is just a detail.

It should be an object hard to acquire and worth searching for at the same time. Maybe a combo of obelisks and buyable information (at special places) that helps you find out where the "X" is. The grail structure could either do something unique (depending on faction) or generally increase the growth and give you a fair amount of money ...or both, but the important thing is - it has to be destructible (for the enemy forces) giving them the possibilty to steal the grail and transport it to any other town.