Everybody: read and understand. This is the enemy. This is stealth.

[XyZspineZyX]

A lot of people in here talk much about Su-37's, F-22's, Eurofighters, Raphales, etc. as if those planes are the ones that will confront each other and as if their technical capabilities are the important ones in the wars of today. Well, you can have fun with discussions of their pros and cons, but don't try to fool yourselves into thinking that their radar signatures, top speed, etc. are what's important in the conflict of today. Also, don't talk as if the confrontation between the US, Russia, China and Europe is the prime conflict today. That's all cold war thinking.

Today we fight a common enemy who utilises stealth perfectly to hit us in our nations capitals. I'm talking about the stealth capability of muslim fighters who use airliners to hit the Pentagon, who wear civilian clothes to attack a theatre in Moscow and who use their seemingly expendable women and children to blow up soldiers and civilians in Chechnya, New York, Paris, Iraq, Moscow and Israel.

That's the real enemy and it's our common enemy. It's the common enemy of modern civilisation and of countries that embrace modern life, such as China, Russia, Europe, Israel and the US.

It's the war we are fighting now and the war we will be fighting for the next 100 years, it's called modernity against the middle ages or civilisation against barbary.

Soldiers have always had a tendency to fight the "last war" and not the next one. I'm afraid that air-to-air combat will not be a major feature of this war, so I wonder why so much effort is going into making (and discussing!) these weapons which will be as relevant to the war we will fight as the cavalry was to World War I.

The muslim fanatics (i.e. a large portion of muslims) have already taken the battle into the West and have a large presence in every Western country. They are in the backyard and cannot be bombed out with JDAM's. Their main weapon is breeding (sorry to say it like that, but it's true) and their tactic is to always push at the weakest point, the point of least resistance.

It's OK to discuss modern military aviation in a forum like this. Just don't fool yourselves into thinking that jet combat is the important factor in the war WE ARE IN.

Freycinet
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Message Edited on 06/12/0303:32PM by Freycinet

[XyZspineZyX]

A lot of people in here talk much about Su-37's, F-22's, Eurofighters, Raphales, etc. as if those planes are the ones that will confront each other and as if their technical capabilities are the important ones in the wars of today. Well, you can have fun with discussions of their pros and cons, but don't try to fool yourselves into thinking that their radar signatures, top speed, etc. are what's important in the conflict of today. Also, don't talk as if the confrontation between the US, Russia, China and Europe is the prime conflict today. That's all cold war thinking.

Today we fight a common enemy who utilises stealth perfectly to hit us in our nations capitals. I'm talking about the stealth capability of muslim fighters who use airliners to hit the Pentagon, who wear civilian clothes to attack a theatre in Moscow and who use their seemingly expendable women and children to blow up soldiers and civilians in Chechnya, New York, Paris, Iraq, Moscow and Israel.

That's the real enemy and it's our common enemy. It's the common enemy of modern civilisation and of countries that embrace modern life, such as China, Russia, Europe, Israel and the US.

It's the war we are fighting now and the war we will be fighting for the next 100 years, it's called modernity against the middle ages or civilisation against barbary.

Soldiers have always had a tendency to fight the "last war" and not the next one. I'm afraid that air-to-air combat will not be a major feature of this war, so I wonder why so much effort is going into making (and discussing!) these weapons which will be as relevant to the war we will fight as the cavalry was to World War I.

The muslim fanatics (i.e. a large portion of muslims) have already taken the battle into the West and have a large presence in every Western country. They are in the backyard and cannot be bombed out with JDAM's. Their main weapon is breeding (sorry to say it like that, but it's true) and their tactic is to always push at the weakest point, the point of least resistance.

It's OK to discuss modern military aviation in a forum like this. Just don't fool yourselves into thinking that jet combat is the important factor in the war WE ARE IN.

Freycinet
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Message Edited on 06/12/0303:32PM by Freycinet

[XyZspineZyX]

Good post Freycinet, but only two very brief points. The wars you speak of are not new, and they will not be over with in 100 years. In fact I believe they will exist as long as we do.

Ever since their existence, aircraft have had pivotal roles creating history.


- I am a vegetarian not because I love animals, but because I hate plants! - Cain

[XyZspineZyX]

True, this is the war of the 21st century BUT we should not abuse the "fight against terror" in empirealistic ambitions and self benefit.

______________________________________________

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/grave2000ca/f-15.JPG


Message Edited on 06/12/0301:06PM by Grave2002

[XyZspineZyX]

i take offense on how u are usin the word muslim, seems like ur meanin all muslims are terrorist

Message Edited on 06/12/0301:31PM by Reptile241

[XyZspineZyX]

not all muslims are muslim fanatics and terrorists fortunately..

Freycinet
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[XyZspineZyX]

lol Special Forces is the best wapon against terrorists.

here is some pics of Russian soilders fighting the terrorist scum

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/chechnyamilarms38.jpg


http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/chechnyamilarms23.jpg


http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/chechnyamilarms03.jpg

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img002/chechnyamilarms11.jpg

[bigvette]

Moshkovskiy32 wrote:

-
- here is some pics of Russian soilders fighting the
- terrorist scum

Those terrorist scums being those in Chechnya? Talk about the wrong war to fight, and Russia had the gall to condemn the US for liberating the Iraqi people?

[XyZspineZyX]

Well was "liberating Iraqi people" part of war on terror? As I said people who fight terror should not abuse this cause to fight for other things.

______________________________________________

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/grave2000ca/f-15.JPG

[britgliderpilot]

Good post . . . .


However, I know I'm going to get flamed for this . . .
They are fighting for their beliefs. We do not agree with them, and we certainly do not agree with their methods of imposing them or their methods of waging war.

But are our methods of waging war on them (as we have seen so far, anyway) any better than theirs?
It's very questionable whether more civilians killed in the crossfire by US troops than US civilians on 9/11 is justifiable.
(I'm gonna get REALLY flamed on that one)

But they see civilians as legitimate targets - that's bad - but should we not be proving we are more civilised by not killing civilians?

It's difficult to say you're more civilised if you're not doing that. If you want to use other reasons to justify those wars, then do and it makes it much, much better.

If you say you actually want to restore peace and some form of justice to a country ravaged by war for so many years and are fed up with the world doing nothing, then do so. But don't BS around.
Something better aimed at US government, but hey, they're not around. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


You're probably applying a little bit of overkill here.
Saying it's the enemy of civilisation and modernity becomes a very grey issue, really it does. The Chechynans in the Moscow theatre were wanting an end to their war. That is an extreme way to go about it - but hey, nobody else listens to them otherwise.

I think in that scenario they were trying to restore peace - civilisation.

Would the Chechens be pissed if Russia hadn't invaded?

Just a question. And the answer brings you the answer to who is really being uncivilised . . . .


Having said all of that - I do so very much hope that this phase of attacking third world countries is over, and war on terror actually in our respective countries is underway.

Come to think of it, you did say that war can't be fought with JDAMS . . . .

Hmn.

So just a good post then.
However, I don't think the war against terrorism can ever be won. It is one of the sad prices of freedom - allowing people to think what they want will result in some people taking that interpretation of Islam . . . . you can't win.



Glider pilot . . . . twist and turn

[XyZspineZyX]

I mostly agree with you britgliderpilot, you have a very strong point there.
Its just you reffered to war in Chechnya and that got me thinking. The general population doesnt want independence and are certantly tired of the war and are accepting the Russian government with giving them highest autonomy in the Russian Federation. However, those that are against Russian occupation of Chechnya(those include wives of killed Chechen rebels, which have conducted a number of suicide missions in and around Chechnya for past month, in which case they didnt specifically targeted valuable military and government objectives, rather more Chechen civilians died in those attacks. The Chechen population does not want anything to do with the Chechen rebels who are being payed and supported by foreign terrorist organizations and even governments in Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

______________________________________________

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/grave2000ca/f-15.JPG

[XyZspineZyX]

britgliderpilot, I'm with you, and I don't like the people who justifies the war on Iraq relating it to the war against terror.

Iraq has been an stalinist dictatorship, not muslim, it was one of the few countries where women could study and have the same rights that the men could have, In fact Bin Laden was against Hussein because he was not a "real" Muslim for him. when people talk about suicide bombers, why do you think they do it.

well, I think that if i lived in poverty all my life, my relatives die thanks to the american or Israeli bombs in Gaza, Afghanistan, Irak,... and the only people who give me "education" and healthcare is Hamas or Al Quaeda, I think I would do the same thing.

I'm not justifying the attacs, I'm just saying that I can understand why they do it.

[moe777]

@britgliderpilot:

Just one comment (not really a flame).

- They are fighting for their beliefs. We do not
- agree with them, and we certainly do not agree with
- their methods of imposing them or their methods of
- waging war.
Doesnt mean we should sit back and take it. I do agree with your civilian comment to a degree, yes we should not target civilians, and I do truly believe we dont, unfortunately sometimes civilians get injured, but I refuse to believe our forces deliberately target them. And that is what seperates us from the terrorists, they target civilians because they see all of us as targets, we only see the terrorists, not all muslims as targets, the problem being the targets we are looking for are hard to physically distinguish from a civilian until they blow them selves up in malls, or fly planes into buildings - just like the first poster said, they have mastered stealth, we need to develop a better radar to pick them out before the incidents and not after.

Hope this wasnt taken as a flame, wanst intended as one, just my opinion and belief's.




* You know the world is messed up when:
* The best golfer is a black guy,
* The best rapper is a white guy,
* The French are accusing the US of being arrogant,
* And Germany doesnt want to go to war.

* You know the world is messed up when:
* The best golfer is a black guy,
* The best rapper is a white guy,
* The French are accusing the US of being arrogant,
* And Germany doesnt want to go to war.

[britgliderpilot]

It wasn't taken as a flame - the disclaimers on these boards are getting more profuse every week /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


You certainly shouldn't sit back and take it.

Picking them out is sometimes very difficult indeed . . . . If you read the stories of those who knew the 9/11 hijackers, most of them didn't appear very religious - a lot of suicide bombers don't. And if they don't appear religious . . . .


Best thing you can hope for is to install chemical sniffers on buses and public buildings, and a very alert security guard who has a chance of taking out the bomber immediately. Non-fatally if possible, but instantly.

Hell, you'd probably be better off cancelling the F22 and using the funds to do that . . . .


- Doesnt mean we should sit back and take it. I do
- agree with your civilian comment to a degree, yes we
- should not target civilians, and I do truly believe
- we dont, unfortunately sometimes civilians get
- injured, but I refuse to believe our forces
- deliberately target them. And that is what seperates
- us from the terrorists, they target civilians
- because they see all of us as targets, we only see
- the terrorists, not all muslims as targets, the
- problem being the targets we are looking for are
- hard to physically distinguish from a civilian until
- they blow them selves up in malls, or fly planes
- into buildings - just like the first poster said,
- they have mastered stealth, we need to develop a
- better radar to pick them out before the incidents
- and not after.


Glider pilot . . . . twist and turn

[XyZspineZyX]

I totally agree on the issue of not killing civilians. And I believe our military forces are very much improving in this area. Compare the number of civilians killed in Vietnam with the reduced number killed in Iraq (I & II). We're improving (with the exceoption of Russia which still fields a Vietnam-era army).

That said, it really is difficult to avoid civilian casualties when fighting an enemy that disregards civilian losses completely. Muslim fanatics actually see losses among their own civilians as a media victory. They are inhumane even towards their own people. They fight out of mosques and generally do what they can to magnify losses among the non-essential lives on their side.

As for understanding the muslim fanatics and terrorists (maybe "radical islamists" is a better word for them). I certainly do understand them. Their crazed beliefs are not exactly complex. However, I don't like what I see. Understand and like are two different things. I just know I hate their guts, they hate our guts, and the war is on and declared from both sides.

As to why they hate us, I guess it springs from ignorance, inferiority and insecurity. They are ignorant of our world because they were never properly informed about it. They feel inferior because the see we are richer and more powerful. And finally they feel insecure, because they see in our world a society that challenges their supremacy (men over women, mullahs over politicians, etc...). As for believing that the West exploits them, well, that may have been so in the past, but it is no longer the case. The US gives bigger support to Egypt than to Israel, case in point (and the examples are legion).

Freycinet
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[XyZspineZyX]

Freycinet wrote:
- A lot of people in here talk much about Su-37's,
- F-22's, Eurofighters, Raphales, etc. as if those
- planes are the ones that will confront each other
- and as if their technical capabilities are the
- important ones in the wars of today. Well, you can
- have fun with discussions of their pros and cons,
- but don't try to fool yourselves into thinking that
- their radar signatures, top speed, etc. are what's
- important in the conflict of today. Also, don't talk
- as if the confrontation between the US, Russia,
- China and Europe is the prime conflict today. That's
- all cold war thinking.

If I understand this right, all the major wars are in the past and we will not see a WWIII. I certainly hope so.


- Today we fight a common enemy who utilises stealth
- perfectly to hit us in our nations capitals. I'm
- talking about the stealth capability of muslim
- fighters who use airliners to hit the Pentagon, who
- wear civilian clothes to attack a theatre in Moscow
- and who use their seemingly expendable women and
- children to blow up soldiers and civilians in
- Chechnya, New York, Paris, Iraq, Moscow and Israel.

Terrorists hit below the belt. I agree.


- That's the real enemy and it's our common enemy.
- It's the common enemy of modern civilisation and of
- countries that embrace modern life, such as China,
- Russia, Europe, Israel and the US.

I feel our real enemy is complacency, the antithesis of diligence. Modern life leads to this, we forget the ales and tribulations of others because we are in our comfort zones.

- It's the war we are fighting now and the war we will
- be fighting for the next 100 years, it's called
- modernity against the middle ages or civilisation
- against barbary.

The war of the haves and have-nots.

- Soldiers have always had a tendency to fight the
- "last war" and not the next one. I'm afraid that
- air-to-air combat will not be a major feature of
- this war, so I wonder why so much effort is going
- into making (and discussing!) these weapons which
- will be as relevant to the war we will fight as the
- cavalry was to World War I.

Because of History, After WWI, came WWII. Why? Because we forgot about history and became complacent. Germany was defeated, all was well. We build weapons that seem as over kill so that we won't be attacked by a million man army that has nothing but sticks. A deterrent. Let me ask you a question, if Israel were to get rid of there weapons, or stop producing them, what would happen to them? Because our weapons are so over the top, we should just tone it down a bit because they are awfully powerful? I don't think so.

- The muslim fanatics (i.e. a large portion of
- muslims) have already taken the battle into the West
- and have a large presence in every Western country.
- They are in the backyard and cannot be bombed out
- with JDAM's. Their main weapon is breeding (sorry to
- say it like that, but it's true) and their tactic is
- to always push at the weakest point, the point of
- least resistance.

I think we have two different issues. Terrorists, and how to deal with them, and The World, and how it will look in the future. Now, that said, what would happen if terrorists some how acquired a nuke, or an a-bomb, or chemicals, or bio weapons? Would they hesitate to use them? Most importantly, where would they get these? I don't believe that we will stop terrorism in my lifetime. I do believe that we need to make sure that we are doing everything in our power to prevent them from getting WMD. EVERYTHING.

- It's OK to discuss modern military aviation in a
- forum like this. Just don't fool yourselves into
- thinking that jet combat is the important factor in
- the war WE ARE IN.

I agree, it is only important for the war that we don't want to be in. A deterrent. I don't feel that appeasement is the answer. Help me out, the point of this topic is, the world powers(USA) spend far to much time and energy on super expensive, dangerous, and effective weapons. When they should be trying to stop terrorism. Right. Then please tell us all how to stop terrorism, we over here in the U.S. are dying to know.


"The Peacock will be on time, fan his tail."

William Frederick "Bull" Halsey

[XyZspineZyX]

Well, not with 300 fighters, or how many you'll end up being able to afford of the F-22, that's for sure.

I believe human intelligence (humint) to be the biggest part of the answer. Look at Israel: they always seem to know where the Hamas people are hiding.

Special forces, Arabian and urdu speaking specialists will be essential.

Airforce-wise, cheap missile-wielding drones with a long loiter-capability will be important. Spectre gunships too. The Airborne laser also, probably. And a rapid heavy-lift capability will be essential for force-insertion. Maybe in the shape of "ekranoplan"-planes like the one Boeing is contemplating.

I haven't got all the answers, but I certainly believe the huge sums spent on fighters would be better spent in other places. Remember, this is a deadly war, we can't allow misspending for sentimental reasons. 9/11 was unfortunately only the beginning, I am quite sure of that. Pakistan and its nukes is falling to islamist radicals as we speak...

Anyway, I don't have the answers of course. that's why i'm posting here, to hear people's opinions.

Freycinet
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[XyZspineZyX]

If you don't keep a state of the art fighter force, how are you going to be able to keep up with the China threat?

Besides keeping an edge technologically is very important as it translate directly into your industry and economy, helps u retain some competitive advantage.

But I agree that a war against fundamentalism is actually going on, and has been going on for years. I hope our nations never downplay this and do everything needed to win it.

Nic

Message Edited on 06/12/0307:26PM by nicolas10

[XyZspineZyX]

nicolas10 wrote:
- But I agree that a war against fundamentalism is
- actually going on, and has been going on for years.
- I hope our nations never downplay this and do
- everything needed to win it.

Mon Dieu Nico, si tu dis ca je perds mes repères! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Freycinet
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[XyZspineZyX]

Looks like this thread has concentrated on terrorists and radical Muslim elements.

To be honest, if you go back and replace these terms with "extremists" or "fanatics", you cover not only the current situation, but past wars and conflicts as well. Any time someone takes an idea and pushes it beyond the pale, you have trouble. Sometimes deadly trouble.

Northern Ireland? Two sides that polarized and moved to the extreme ends of the argument, the folks in the middle were the ones who got hurt the most. Cold War? Heh... how many examples would you like? WWII? Well, certain elements in the Axis could be described as fanatical. WWI? Iran/Iraq War?

Perhaps something more modern... Microsoft v. Linux? RIAA v. everyone? Usenet flame wars?

Most fanatics are young people without jobs or education. Give 'em education but nothing to do, they'll find things to do... probably things you don't want them doing. Give 'em jobs without education, they'll look at the people above 'em in social status and feel like they're being taken advantage of. They'll probably be right too... but now they're pissed and can afford the more expensive toys to "set things right."

Fighting fanaticism with bullets will protect you in the immediate term, but will just breed more fanatics who now think they're getting "revenge". That whole "you shot my Pa, now we's gonna be feudin!" syndrome... Only two things can end it: One side lays down and dies, or both sides agree that the cost isn't worth the fight anymore. For that second thing to happen, BOTH sides need to be educated, and willing to look beyond their immediate grievances.

It's the extremist who takes a good idea and warps it into something bad. Its the fanatic who values a THING or an IDEA above human life.

Trouble is...there are these nasty little ideas like nationalism, freedom, self-determination... hmm...

The Spartans had it right - "Moderation in all things."


***
Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity.
***

[XyZspineZyX]

- The Spartans had it right - "Moderation in all
- things."

Yowser! The Spartans, I'm no Spartan, but I do love Moderation, but not in ALL things.

"The Peacock will be on time, fan his tail."

William Frederick "Bull" Halsey

[XyZspineZyX]

I`ve read recently an interesting analysys by a russian professor - he thinks there is no organized global terrorist network but a lot of independant structures. they often work together, but that doesn`t make them a net.
Osama, for example is only one of leaders of one of these groups, nothing more. That`s why the way the international community tries to fight them is doomed (especialy when you use bombers and fighters and tanks to fight terror). In fact the world community fights the results, not what caused them. And often uses this results for their own purposes mostly conected with bussines interests and greed for more power.
That`s not the way to succeed

[XyZspineZyX]

I haven't read the posts that come after that Russia-Chechnya reply, but Chechnya has always been a part of Russia, but the people there are resisting the Russian ''occupation'' for more than 100 years, so it's not surprisingly that it has become such a bloody mess.
But I do condemn all those Chechen and Russian people thet exploit the situation to sell arms to Al-Queda and so to the Chechen terrorists or "freedom fighters" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

[XyZspineZyX]

From what I hear from various sources, partly the Chechens have a "national" wish to be free of Russian domination, and partly a lot of Chechens who grew up in the Soviet state are afraid of a future under a Chechen, islamist leadership, because it will be fundamentalist and probably chaotic and clan-based (as in the years of de-facto independence in the 90's. Especially women such as teachers and doctors suffered when the Russians first left Chechnya in the 90's because they went back under 100% male domination. Hard to go back to, when you have tried a degree of freedom, as Iranian women can testify.

Freycinet
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[XyZspineZyX]

hey what's up everyone? You know what? what i like about this thread is that you can actually here everyones opinion, and no one has flamed anyone else. and now i want to flame you all. just kidding. So doesnt anyone here like airplanes? naw just kidding again. I think that terrorism will always continue when there are people out there who can not be controled, when they get out of control. demonstrating your view is cool, until it comes to killing others to get your point across.

anyway anyone see this pic yet. its on the Navy's official website.

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/030612-N-4374S-002.jpg


http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/030609-F-3677M-036.jpg

[britgliderpilot]

Nice photos - off topic, bandwidth chewing, but very nice . . . .
What ship's the chopper on?

And that looks like an Su25 to me - is that a Sidewinder it's got strapped under the wingtip?
It doesn't look very Russian . . . . very weird. Have another look.


And I particularly like the way you said The Navy . . . . there's more than one, and given they're Russian aircraft . . . /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
Remind anyone of Hot Shots?
We go on about Hornets in USAF markings . . . . EW5894 Phallus with "The Navy" written on the side . . . /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



Glider pilot . . . . twist and turn

[XyZspineZyX]

I've missed something here. That's an A10.

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[britgliderpilot]

You're quite right, I'm an idiot. It's an A10.


Ahem.

For some reason I thought those engine pods were attached to the sides of the plane . . . oops.
And the twin tail . . . and all the other points . . .

Why did I think it was Russian?

Note to self - before posting, engage brain . . . .


Glider pilot . . . . twist and turn

[XyZspineZyX]

"Look at Israel: they always seem to know where the Hamas people are hiding."

Yeah and they always claim that they killed a top-Hamas figure. I wonder how big this Hamas-leadership is... and every dead Hamas-leader spawns at least three new Hamas supporters...


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"It take 15,000 casualties to train a major general."

Ferdinand Foch

http://frenchnavy.free.fr/aircraft/rafale/images/rafale-036.jpg

[XyZspineZyX]

sorry for big pics, thought they were smaller. at least at beginning they were. Anyway, the ship is an Aegis destroyer and the bottom an a-10. was supposed to be my sig, but too big.

[XyZspineZyX]

jetmanf14 wrote:
- sorry for big pics, thought they were smaller. at
- least at beginning they were. Anyway, the ship is
- an Aegis destroyer..

Do you know when the picture(the KA-27 on the deck) was taken? I suspect that it might have been sometime in 1996 when the Kuznetsov was deployed to the Med. There were a couple of visits exchanged between the Russians and Americans.

Cheers,
JJ -


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[XyZspineZyX]

actually taken a couple of days ago on the 12th. op called Baltic Operations 2003. its basically an excersize to help prepare for crisis. Ship is USS Vella Gulf (CG 72).


Here's a link to another pic of same time.

http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=8163

[XyZspineZyX]

jetmanf14 wrote:
- actually taken a couple of days ago on the 12th. op
- called Baltic Operations 2003. its basically an
- excersize to help prepare for crisis. Ship is USS
- Vella Gulf (CG 72).
-
-
- Here's a link to another pic of same time.

Really? - damn I should have known about that - kind of close to home /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Anyway, thanks for the link /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Cheers,
JJ -

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[XyZspineZyX]

sure no prob. i am always tryin to keep up foreign relations. No seriously i think there should be more of those and then have a huge full scale mock with U.S., Russia, UK, and some others then we can all see some cool stuff all together, like a Naval display from U.S., Russia, and UK like an airshow. F-14, SU-33, and a Harrier or somethin loud.

[XyZspineZyX]

jetmanf14 wrote:
- sure no prob. i am always tryin to keep up foreign
- relations. No seriously i think there should be
- more of those and then have a huge full scale mock
- with U.S., Russia, UK, and some others then we can
- all see some cool stuff all together, like a Naval
- display from U.S., Russia, and UK like an airshow.
- F-14, SU-33, and a Harrier or somethin loud.

Yeah - but isnt that basically what BALTOPS is? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif - a dozen or so nations showing off their hardware /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - ok not much in the way of fighter jets - but still.

I remember one of my friends went to such a "gathering" here in Denmark a few years back - was onboard a US Burke-class destroyer, and saw "a Russian destroyer", which from his description must have been one of the Sovremenny-class vessels of the Russian Baltic Fleet - both "very impressive" he said. I somehow manage to miss it every time something like that goes on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif .

The airshows in this country appear to be strictly NATO oriented - the last I went to, the only "Eastern touch" consisted of a couple of AN-2s from Latvia /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif - although I believe the Germans brought a MIG-29 last time around.

Cheers,
JJ -



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[XyZspineZyX]

These are all very good posts people but please keep in mind that unless you actually go to a war, you are unfortunately full of brown stuff. Iraq needed liberating. You should have seen how the masses are forced to live there. They lived in their own excrement, in fear of the Saddam Fedeyeen and the Ba'ath party. Don't let sound and video bites on CNN tell you how the world is. Don't let some college professor tell you how things are either. They're shut-ins also. You actually have to see it for yourself. I didn't realize myself how bad perception has become skewered until I was rolling across a border with a rifle in my hand.

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[XyZspineZyX]

hey who brought that up? I was just tryin to bring the counties together.

[XyZspineZyX]

nevermind

[XyZspineZyX]

You can beat terrorism. You just have to go and relentlessly kick its ***, wherever it is. Kadafi in Libya is an example. He was supporting terrorist who were machine gunning European airports. We (America) went in and bombed the crap out of Kadafi's palace and killed some of his family. After that no more machine gunning in airports. Its pretty simple, you just have to go and smash the leaders who are supporting and leading terrorism. That's the whole point of Iraq. We don't want their oil. We don't want their land. We just want them unable to aid and support terrorism.



_____________________________________

Anyone who takes online discussions too seriously and actually takes personal offence to anything that is said, should undergo shock thearapy -- Aces High (social worker and self proclaimed *** of the forums. Just because I'm so nice in real life!)

[britgliderpilot]

It's off topic now and will shortly descend into Flame War number four thousand . . . .


BUT.
I would slightly agree with that idea - if there was any proof, of any kind, that the regime in Iraq supported terrorism.

And there hasn't been.
If there is - show it to us. If there isn't . . . . well you can't . . . . so you don't . . . and oh my. I am forced to conclude Iraq didn't support terrorism.


There are far bigger threats than Iraq for supporting terrorism.

You can't wipe out terrorism by attacking whole countries, whatever you say.

Bin Laden is a millionaire himself.

Saudi is doing more for Al Quaeda than Iraq was (it's built into the very system there), we know this for certain . . . . but did the US invade Saudi?

Nooooo, they didn't. It's all very weird.


Where was Iraq mentioned anyway?
Or did I miss that bit?


Glider pilot . . . . twist and turn

[XyZspineZyX]

I am sorry, but this thread has to be locked, for 2 reasons:

1) It has great flamewar potential given the statements made.

2) It is completely off topic at this point, with politics dominating. As I recall, this is the "Aviation Forum".