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Real_King_Louis
04-06-2005, 07:14 PM
What to Keep (and improve on).

What to Ditch (and never look back).

And all sorts of shades of gray in between.

- K -

Real_King_Louis
04-06-2005, 07:14 PM
What to Keep (and improve on).

What to Ditch (and never look back).

And all sorts of shades of gray in between.

- K -

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-06-2005, 08:16 PM
Spell schools....those are keepers.
Mysticism, Eagle Eye, Sorcery....those could either be dumped, replaced with arti's, or completely overhauled.
Wisdom....could be redone and set up to work in conjunction with hero specialties or hero levels. It should be more automatically gained if you want it. Maybe just make it a choice more often?

Dog_in_Black
04-06-2005, 08:38 PM
Something to consider - A point buying system. I'm trying to think of a way to make it simple, but give some roleplay ability to customize heroes more.

You get a certain number of spells at first level, and based on your heroe's class you learn other spells automatically, but you also get points to buy spells at various map and town locations. Want to save up to use Armageddon? Well, you need 100 points to purchase that and should have that at 5th level (provided you have the fire magic skill).

The idea needs fleshed out obviously, but it's based on a desire to have more flexibility by hero in what spells they learn.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-06-2005, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dog_in_Black:
Something to consider - A point buying system. I'm trying to think of a way to make it simple, but give some roleplay ability to customize heroes more.

You get a certain number of spells at first level, and based on your heroe's class you learn other spells automatically, but you also get points to buy spells at various map and town locations. Want to save up to use Armageddon? Well, you need 100 points to purchase that and should have that at 5th level (provided you have the fire magic skill).

The idea needs fleshed out obviously, but it's based on a desire to have more flexibility by hero in what spells they learn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. Very D&D-like for sure. And unfortunately for a game like heroes...to complicated. Find a way to simplify it...and I'm game. What about using it kinda like the tower's library. All the towns can build mageguilds, but the points or levels or whatever give you the option to add a spell of your choice to a level of your mage guild. There'd have to be all sorts of restrictions though. Otherwise everyone would be picking the game-breaking spells (tp, dd, resurrection, etc)

Cool idea though. It needs more suggestions though.

Btw...welcome to the den Blackie!

OZFirst
04-06-2005, 09:13 PM
Call me simple-minded, but I would like to see more offensive spells, elimination of silliness like Eagle Eye, and cutting down on defensive and buff spells that all basically do the same thing --- stoneskin, bless, protection from nothing, etc etc etc.

Dog_in_Black
04-06-2005, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dog_in_Black:
Something to consider - A point buying system. I'm trying to think of a way to make it simple, but give some roleplay ability to customize heroes more.

You get a certain number of spells at first level, and based on your heroe's class you learn other spells automatically, but you also get points to buy spells at various map and town locations. Want to save up to use Armageddon? Well, you need 100 points to purchase that and should have that at 5th level (provided you have the fire magic skill).

The idea needs fleshed out obviously, but it's based on a desire to have more flexibility by hero in what spells they learn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. Very D&D-like for sure. And unfortunately for a game like heroes...to complicated. Find a way to simplify it...and I'm game. What about using it kinda like the tower's library. All the towns can build mageguilds, but the points or levels or whatever give you the option to add a spell of your choice to a level of your mage guild. There'd have to be all sorts of restrictions though. Otherwise everyone would be picking the game-breaking spells (tp, dd, resurrection, etc)

Cool idea though. It needs more suggestions though.

Btw...welcome to the den Blackie! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you and Hiya Sir!

Yep, maybe I've been playing too much D&D lately. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree it could get complicated (which no one wants) but hopefully something like it could get implemented.

I think if you just picked a new spell or two when you went up a level that wouldn't take too long. And if you had a chance to learn more (a structure similar to a university as you mentioned above, but for spells) based on your level -and expertise in a certain magic school)

Hmm, anyway, it's worth pondering more. This and the skill system will be the subject of many, many discussions I'm certain.

Ghasteater
04-07-2005, 01:13 AM
I think must be skills that give abilities to cast High level spells of this school, must be scomdary reuirments, but they a common skills, not branches of that magic scill as in Heroes 4.

Example: have some aditional magic skills:
blessing (1-st levl= less cost, 2-nd levl= stronger effect,3-rd levl= masseffect, singl spell reamainat spellbook)
curses (the same effects)
Damage (10, 20, 30% I think is good enough, may be some high spells can adittional effects as stun or distupting ray)
Area (less cost, 1 hex higer effect, 2 hex higere effect, old versionof spells is remain)
Healing/summoning (less cost, stronger effect, Strongest effect and blessings/cure)

And for example life magic recuirments (I think that 3 levl gradation will be enough) Lvl 1 -none Lvl2 - blesses lvl1 Healing lvl2 lvl3 blesses lvl3 Healing lvl3

Death None, damage lvl1 curses lvl2, damage and curses lvl 3

Chaos= area+damage

Natura= Area + Blesses (Some spels like quiqcksand is good but NO lesser summons)

Order=Blesses +Curses
Or

Air= Blesses + Damage
Water= Healing + Blesses
Fire= Damage + Area
Earth= Healing + Curses

That is wery raw idea sorry i don't think too long on it...

Qrystal_Dragon
04-07-2005, 03:11 AM
This brings to mind how useless some spells were in H3 such as Hypnotise and Forgetfullness. I also remember Dimension Door and Town Gate being the must have spells in H3. Then in H4 they made the Hypnotise and Forgetfulness spells way to powerful. Town Gate became more restrictive and Dimension Door disappeared. I will admit that I like the spell system in H4 better as it gears towards the heroe type whereas in H3 any old bloke could have anything. I'm sure the wonderful wizard designers will come up with a more balanced blend of the twohttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pitsu
04-07-2005, 03:30 AM
Yet another idea is to make some potentially imbalancing spells cost you ressources. Lets say for casting dimension door or rescurrection a magican needs to sacrifice a crystal or gem. That would limit overuse of certain spells.

In regards of magic schools/secondary skills, as I said elsewhere, H4 style is more interesting than H3.

Lich_
04-07-2005, 04:56 AM
Definately, H4 spell system was a big step forward, from general spell system in Heroes 3. I do not think that they would take a step back and make all spells general and easy to obtain to every faction.

RexMund1
04-07-2005, 10:00 AM
The offensive spells need to ramp up better than they did in homm III

anything that was related to the number of hit points being affected was useless in the second month no matter how strong your power was. If a warlock with 35 power can't hypnotize a stack of pikemen in week 13 it is a useless spell.

I would like to see magic as a viable option as a focus. The game has always been about the creatures and I don't want to see that change but I'd like to have the ability to create a magic hero and have him truly balance a might hero

Sighurd
04-15-2005, 09:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Definately, H4 spell system was a big step forward, from general spell system in Heroes 3. I do not think that they would take a step back and make all spells general and easy to obtain to every faction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely!

BaronZealot
04-15-2005, 09:27 AM
Eagle Eye would have been all right if the chance to succeed would have been 80 or 90%. Mysticism would have been all right if it would have been a percent of your total mp.

Logan_HP
04-16-2005, 06:25 AM
I also think, that H4 spell system was much better. Too powerful spells like Dimension Door and Fly should not appear back in Heroes5 - those spells, in my opinion, spoiled the gameplay in HMM2 and HMM3 in most of cases.

What I still miss in HoMM (and what we had in MM) is Light and Dark magics. What about them?

My suggestion is to create 6 spell schools (each spell school for each town type) - Air, Fire, Water, Earth, Light and Dark. Spells like Prayer, Divine Intervention, Bless will "go" to the Light school, and the majority of Death spells - to Dark school.

RexMund1
04-18-2005, 12:42 PM
I hate the idea of eliminating Dimension Door and Fly...
Yes they were unbalancing in a multiplayer game on a medium map..

but chasing down the AI on an XL map without town Portal, Fly or DD would be a HUGE frustrating waste of time.

keep the spells in and leave the option to keep them off the map.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-18-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RexMund1:
I hate the idea of eliminating Dimension Door and Fly...
Yes they were unbalancing in a multiplayer game on a medium map..

but chasing down the AI on an XL map without town Portal, Fly or DD would be a HUGE frustrating waste of time.

keep the spells in and leave the option to keep them off the map. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*seconds that motion*

Yep, you've got to keep those in there. If you're worried about them ruining the balancing...then what you SHOULD be concerned about is not those spells but rather having a competent mapmaker. A good mapmaker will take those things into account and limit their use dramatically.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Qrystal_Dragon:
This brings to mind how useless some spells were in H3 such as Hypnotise and Forgetfullness. I also remember Dimension Door and Town Gate being the must have spells in H3. Then in H4 they made the Hypnotise and Forgetfulness spells way to powerful. Town Gate became more restrictive and Dimension Door disappeared. I will admit that I like the spell system in H4 better as it gears towards the heroe type whereas in H3 any old bloke could have anything. I'm sure the wonderful wizard designers will come up with a more balanced blend of the two <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Qrystal....since when was Forgetfullness a useless spell in H3?!? Apparently you never fought against a good ranged-troop player. That spell is EXTREMELY useful with expert water. (or is it advanced? I remember there is a spell that goes mass one level early...a bug most likely) And not to be picky...but Town Gate was the H1 spell. Town Portal was H2/3. Town Gate was far from being an overly powerful spell. You couldn't pick-and-choose what town you wanted to portal to with Town Gate. Automatically sent you to nearest friendly town. But I still want Town Portal in H5. I LOOOOOOOVE that spell. :O)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by BaronZealot:
Eagle Eye would have been all right if the chance to succeed would have been 80 or 90%. Mysticism would have been all right if it would have been a percent of your total mp. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice changes. Simple and effective. I personally couldn't stand those 2 skills in H3, but those little changes would make them very usefull. I'd also probably alter the spell levels you could learn from Eagle Eye.

Beltion
04-18-2005, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
since when was Forgetfullness a useless spell in H3?!? Apparently you never fought against a good ranged-troop player. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ranged player? What about all those stacks of ranged units? A throng of grand elves could decimate your lower level units if they were allwoed to shoot at you, but casting a spell and turning them from 2x shooter to 0.5x mellee units brought a smile to my face.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Town Gate was the H1 spell. Town Portal was H2/3. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Town gate was in H2, and sort of in H3 as well. In H2 Gate was a lvl 4 spell and Gate a lvl 5 one. In H3 Town portal with basic earth magic worked as town gate IIRC.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaronZealot
Eagle Eye would have been all right if the chance to succeed would have been 80 or 90%. Mysticism would have been all right if it would have been a percent of your total mp. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree about the Eagle Eye... I just checked my manual and Expert EE in H3 gave a 60% chance. That means that you're one treasure class artifact from reaching close to your suggested figures, and nobody took the skill anyway.

And for mysticism it would have probably made the skill useful if it gave not two, three and four points but twenty, thirty and fourty mana points.

Pitsu
04-19-2005, 02:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beltion:

I disagree about the Eagle Eye... I just checked my manual and Expert EE in H3 gave a 60% chance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It had? Didn't feel like that. Anyway, one of the problem was that capturing a town and visiting a mage guild was way more effective way to learn spells. I wonder how useful would eagle eye be in H4, if it would allow learning spells from schools that you lack skill for.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
04-19-2005, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beltion:
Ranged player? What about all those stacks of ranged units? A throng of grand elves could decimate your lower level units if they were allwoed to shoot at you, but casting a spell and turning them from 2x shooter to 0.5x mellee units brought a smile to my face. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's what I was saying. Maybe I wasn't clear. But Forgetfullness was a great spell against ranged troops. If you ran across a player who was exceptionally good with ranged troops, that could be a game altering spell imo.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beltion:
Town gate was in H2, and sort of in H3 as well. In H2 Gate was a lvl 4 spell and Gate a lvl 5 one. In H3 Town portal with basic earth magic worked as town gate IIRC. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you. I was pretty sure it was in H2 as well, but when I went back and looked in the manual, I saw Portal. I forgot to look at the Level 4 spells. D'oh!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Beltion:
I disagree about the Eagle Eye... I just checked my manual and Expert EE in H3 gave a 60% chance. That means that you're one treasure class artifact from reaching close to your suggested figures, and nobody took the skill anyway.

And for mysticism it would have probably made the skill useful if it gave not two, three and four points but twenty, thirty and fourty mana points. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but then you're having to waste an artifact slot just to bump up a skill to make it moderately useful. Giving it a very high percent chance for sucess at expert level will make it useful. Add on a arti...you could get it to 100%. Now it's VERY useful. :O)

And as for the mysticism....yeah, it needed to give more points back. That's why I like the percentage of your maximum mana idea. Simply bumping it up to 20/30/40 would be a bad idea imo. Think of getting mysticism at a low level. You'd never run out of spell points. That takes away too much strategy imo. Having it as a percentage makes it useful throughout the game.