HAWX: the obvious questions

[RawKryptonite]

I'm stoked about this game.

The obvious questions:

1)Didn't recognzie that fighter, will the game have real fighters or all fictitious ones?

2)Will it be more like Over G Fighters (sim-like) or Ace Combat(up close arcade-like)?

3)Will there be an offer to buy it with a flight stick set like AC6 did?

4)Will there be a PC version so I can use a PC flight stick set?

5)INCREDIBILY important (buy it or rent it issue here): <span class="ev_code_RED">is there a good quality cockpit view?</span>


This is all good news, much better than another GR at this point.

[CrazySunDog]

yes, important questions.

if it leans towards AC6, it will be very avoidable.

[Beccera]

Hello mates!

I'll try to do my best to answer your questions.
1) In both images we've been shown, those two are real fighters. In the screenshot, it's the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon while in the video, it's the Dassault Rafale. For now, seems it's gonna be realistic planes. I bet it'll be mixed up with near-future planes (which are not yet in service) as a few UCAVs, for exemple.
2) This will probably be between both, as in all Tom Clancy's title. It's at first for entertainement but will still be realistic. I hope we'll see chaffs and countermeasures!
3) Would be pretty cool if it's a good quality joystick with a throttle. I'd definitely buy one.
4) There is a PC version, just have a look over IGN. There's a few interesting info there and probably more coming.
5) I'd say yes, but it depends on your opinion. It will probably be more of a HUD than an actual cockpit display. Personally, I like that better since a panel partially hides the view. Moreover, I read somewhere (maybe that was for EndWar) that pilots had googles allowing them to "see thru" their plane. But nothing sure on that point.

I'd throw in some more information. It seems to be some connection between GR and EndWar; we hear of some "Mitchell" commander in the EndWar book as well as a mention of the Ghosts. There are some other links between I don't remember of.
As it there is also a connection between HAWX and GR as it's seen in the video, it seems obvious on my end that those games are all going to be a whole. And if you look on the tail of the Rafale (in the video), we clearly see what looks like to be an hawk... like GRAW's Firehawk squadron.

I personally played AC6 two days nearly non-stop (well, I slept when when I wasn't sleeping or eating, I played lol) when I rented a X360 for two days. I thaught it was breathtaking and had a captivating scenario, along with fast-paced action and pretty good graphics. I'd buy one immediately if it existed on PC.

Hope that helps some of you guys and gals!
FoxLeader

[Brettzies]

Where's the screenshot?

here it go~! (http://media.pc.ign.com/media/966/966357/img_5413520.html)

[MeanMF]

Originally posted by RawKryptonite:
3)Will there be an offer to buy it with a flight stick set like AC6 did?
Corollary: Will it work with the AC6 flightstick?

[Medieval64]

1. i read thru the article on www.ign.com, (http://www.ign.com,) but didn't mention whether the planes are real or not

2. if anything, i bet it'll be a fusion between Ace Combat and Bazing Angels (btw, the same devs behind Blazing Angels are making Tom Cancy H.A.W.X)

3. not sure about a flt-stick, though i wouldn't be suprised if it's compatible with the AC flt stick or maybe ubisoft will contract logitech to create one

4. It's coming out for PC, Xbox 360 and PS3

5. it's looks like a buy to me...as for a flight deck view, it' didn't say (though we will find out more soon)

[Beccera]

I would add two things:
-Release date is set for Fall 2008
-The F-16 shown in the screenshot Brettzies linked to is from the USAF.

[MeanMF]

Originally posted by Medieval64:
2. if anything, i bet it'll be a fusion between Ace Combat and Bazing Angels (btw, the same devs behind Blazing Angels are making Tom Cancy H.A.W.X)
Really? Ugh... The horrendous screen tearing in Blazing Angels made it unplayable for me - I felt physically ill after 5-10 minutes. Hopefully they've figured out how to get rid of that.

[Beccera]

A copy-paste of the interesting part out on IGN:

Developed by Ubisoft's Bucharest Studio, HAWX lets you pilot more than 50 planes in dogfights across the sky. Set in 2012, HAWX imagines a world that has become increasingly dependant on private military companies (PMCs). With PMCs increasingly gaining power, we sit on the precipice of a global conflict. Sounds like a good enough reason to hop in your fighter jet and shoot down some bogies.


HAWX features an Enhanced Reality System (ERS), which is meant to make even the average pilot feel like Iceman. ERS includes radars, incoming missile detection, an anti-crash system, damage control system, tactical map, information relay, weapons trajectory control and allows players to give commands to their AI squadron. With the Assistance Mode flipped on, the ERS will put pilots into a maximum safety mode. Think of it like having all the assists turned on in a racing game. You get more freedom and control with Assistance Mode off, but you will also be at greater risk without the full protection of the ERS.

My other plane's a stealth bomber.

Fortunately, you won't have to fight alone. HAWX supports four-player jump in co-op throughout the campaign. There is also a Vs. mode where up to 16 players can battle online for experience points and in-game cash, which is used to unlock new weapons.
The article: http://pc.ign.com/articles/864/864062p1.html
The trailer video: http://media.video.ign.com/ev/av.html?dlURL=http://xbox...flv&object_ID=966360 (http://media.video.ign.com/ev/av.html?dlURL=http://xbox360movies.ign.com/xbox360/video/article/864/864037/hawx_040208_trailer_flvhighwide.flv&object_ID=966360)



It clearly says "Captain Mitchell" and "Ghost Leader". Also from what we know of EndWar, seems it's set between GRAW2 and EndWar (that last one is ~2022) while HAWX is ~2012.

As for the HUD, have a look at the trailer, at 1:18. This will probably look like this.

And I hope there's gonna be proper joystick configuration as Blazing Angel's config literall s*cks!!!! And please, an ingame config panel. Not a dam*n launcher!

[Slickrick2345]

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/863/863558p1.html

There is the article with the video. I myself am a big fan of flight combat games and must say, after reading this article i am very intrigued on how this is going to turn out.

[RawKryptonite]

It'll need a normal cockpit view to be a purchase. I don't buy that HUD only or tailview..."junk".

This may end up a PC purchase for me since I just got a flight stick for that anyway. Would MUCH rather have MP/co-op on the 360 though.


NEXT Big Question (the hard one):
What will the PC recommended hardware be? (and then double it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).



...and pure blooded flight sims are entertainment too, I don't want to see this come out a friggin Blazing Angels. I'm fine with "more or less-sim" like OGF or even AC6 gameplay, but Blazing Angels is going too far.

[zterrans]

The trailer was a bit confusing, but reading this makes a little more sense. Was trying to figure out why a French fighter was being used by an American pilot to support a Ghost team.

Looks promising.

[CrazySunDog]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RawKryptonite:
It'll need a normal cockpit view to be a purchase. I don't buy that HUD only or tailview..."junk".

This may end up a PC purchase for me since I just got a flight stick for that anyway. Would MUCH rather have MP/co-op on the 360 though.[QUOTE]

O, to play this on my 360 with my Saitek X52 flight stick!!

Oh well will never happen.

[RawKryptonite]

Originally posted by CrazySunDog:

O, to play this on my 360 with my Saitek X52 flight stick!!

Oh well will never happen.

Just got mine this week. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
If the 360 version comes with a stick package, that'll be mighty tempting. Otherwise, there's the PC.
I wonder if MS has a 360 peripheral up their sleeve that might be put out about the same time that we haven't heard of?

[Brettzies]

Originally posted by RawKryptonite:
If the 360 version comes with a stick package, that'll be mighty tempting. Otherwise, there's the PC.
I wonder if MS has a 360 peripheral up their sleeve that might be put out about the same time that we haven't heard of?

You could buy AC6 with this:

Flight Stick (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/19/ace-combat-6-flight-stick-bundle/)

But you couldn't buy it seperate for some reason. Haven't checked in a while, maybe you can now. It would suck if you had to buy a whole new flight stick for HAWX if you already had the AC6 one.

[Mr.Hanky2005]

Originally posted by RawKryptonite:
I'm stoked about this game.

The obvious questions:

1)Didn't recognzie that fighter, will the game have real fighters or all fictitious ones?


It looked like a Eurofighter Typhoon.

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/06/eu_bw50/image/bae.jpg

Please excuse the slightly large image.
http://www.ejvk.com/Wallpapers/Wallpapers_021.jpg

[zterrans]

The poster who suggested a Rafale is correct:
EDIT: Got the pictures smaller, but the poster below got in the evidence first

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/zterrans/rafale_3.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/zterrans/rafale_1a.jpg

[Beccera]

I confirm it's a french Dassault Rafale. Look at the intakes position and at the vertical stab as well as the cockpit area and the wings position. That's a Rafale for sure.
I'm a lot into aviation; the Rafale is one of my tops.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_W0ZyhtvT4q8/Rmb5Jak9R3I/AAAAAAAABqg/0t9UEBhkraA/s400/Dassault-Rafale-11.jpg

EDIT:
@zterrans: Grilled XD
And maybe you should look at reducing your image size?

EDIT 2: Ah, ok you saw it. Thanks for solving it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[zterrans]

By the way, the intakes are shaped differently too, and the nose and cockpit of the two seem different (I can't explain that one, but the Rafale sort of reminds me of the front of an F-16 for the first few feet)

[OUTFOXEM]

Why is there an American flying a European jet?

I got a bad taste in my mouth already...

[Beccera]

Maybe it's European Enforcers Corps (see EndWar) that's supporting the Ghosts?
Nothing tells us it's american, except for the Firehawk logo which we aren't even sure it is...

[capteenix]

Originally posted by Beccera:
Maybe it's European Enforcers Corps (see EndWar) that's supporting the Ghosts?
Nothing tells us it's american, except for the Firehawk logo which we aren't even sure it is...
Will we ever see a realism of Flight simulator, in Tom Clancy branded games?

[neuralgod]

Does anyone remember this? http://www.mondoxbox.com/immagini.php?view=1&id=34589

This is the previously announced Tom Clancy's Air Combat getting a new name. GRAW-like HUD and cockpit camera.

[capteenix]

Originally posted by neuralgod:
Does anyone remember this? http://www.mondoxbox.com/immagini.php?view=1&id=34589

This is the previously announced Tom Clancy's Air Combat getting a new name. GRAW-like HUD and cockpit camera.
Meh, looks like GRAW expansion pack. recycled graphics and Interface.

And I found the Trailer pretty funny, I mean, He drops a smart bomb which turns into a rocket all of a sudden?

and who does fly that fast below the building level?

[RoundeyeSamurai]

Why do you assume it is a "smart bomb"? There are a lot of rocket propelled ordenance that disengage from the plane before firing the engine up.

[RawKryptonite]

Originally posted by Brettzies:
You could buy AC6 with this:

Flight Stick (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/19/ace-combat-6-flight-stick-bundle/)

But you couldn't buy it seperate for some reason. Haven't checked in a while, maybe you can now. It would suck if you had to buy a whole new flight stick for HAWX if you already had the AC6 one.

I looked for it, but it's hard to find it new other than Ebay. Then they usually want too much for it.

[capteenix]

Originally posted by RoundeyeSamurai:
Why do you assume it is a "smart bomb"? There are a lot of rocket propelled ordenance that disengage from the plane before firing the engine up.
Because the pilot is dropping unit-27 from what I see. It's a smart bomb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf-jQWHZ5es
More about rafale.


And since when did ground troops talk to air force units? I thought the order comes throught the command.

[Livi70590]

2. if anything, i bet it'll be a fusion between Ace Combat and Bazing Angels (btw, the same devs behind Blazing Angels are making Tom Cancy H.A.W.X)


Urgh. Blazing Angels' control scheme.

[GameHunter77]

There hasn't been a good flight sim or aerial combat game since Crimson Skies. I'm hoping that this game is the end all in the genre.

I hope to see some gameplay footage at E3.....hint..hint.

[Cons72]

Originally posted by zterrans:
The trailer was a bit confusing, but reading this makes a little more sense. Was trying to figure out why a French fighter was being used by an American pilot to support a Ghost team.

Looks promising.

Still doesn't make sense. Why is a French plane, being flown by what sounds like an all-American golden boy?

Ubi is moving their franchise from what used to be the realm of realistic possibilities to fantasy junk stories. The plausibility of the earlier Clancy Games along with the more realistic game play is what attracted me to them. (Exception being the co-op campaign story in GRAW2 if you separate it from the Mexico bullocks).

As long as Ubi is going to move towards Sci-Fi, there are other titles that I would rather play in that genera.

[neuralgod]

I hope to see some gameplay footage at E3.....hint..hint.
No need to wait so long, UbiDays is next month http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[silentstriderm]

Originally posted by capteenix:

And since when did ground troops talk to air force units? I thought the order comes throught the command.

Gotta love that cross-com

[PB0_shadow]

Originally posted by GameHunter77:
There hasn't been a good flight sim or aerial combat game since Crimson Skies. I'm hoping that this game is the end all in the genre.

I hope to see some gameplay footage at E3.....hint..hint.

IL2 serie (IL2-1946 has them all) has been the best combat flight sim on the market for some years now (warbirds). A sim but with difficulty settings made so as to play almost arcade for those who wish

For jets, Falcon 4 or Lock:On serie...

[xMisterVx]

So... any chance this is going to be as awesome as Ace Combat? The screens sure look nice, but what about epic storyline and missions... and don't forget crazy-*** futuristic bonus planes.

[DualThrone]

Originally posted by capteenix:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RoundeyeSamurai:
Why do you assume it is a "smart bomb"? There are a lot of rocket propelled ordenance that disengage from the plane before firing the engine up.
Because the pilot is dropping unit-27 from what I see. It's a smart bomb </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget that it could just be 'sexed up' for the purposes of the trailer.

[vince4unow]

All

Here is a link to the game coming attraction:

http://www.destructoid.com/introducing-tom-clancy-s-h-a...his-good-79511.phtml (http://www.destructoid.com/introducing-tom-clancy-s-h-a-w-x-air-combat-has-never-sounded-this-good-79511.phtml)

[OUTFOXEM]

Originally posted by Beccera:
Maybe it's European Enforcers Corps (see EndWar) that's supporting the Ghosts?
Nothing tells us it's american, except for the Firehawk logo which we aren't even sure it is...

Nothing tells you he's American? Are you serious? Does he need to be wearing a helmet with stars and stripes painted all over it?

If he's not American, then he's Canadian. They're no more likely to be flying a European plane than we are.

I ask again:

Why is there an American flying a European jet?

[OUTFOXEM]

Someone asked if there were going to be real planes in the game. There are two screenshots now posted on IGN of an F-16 so it looks like there will be.

Whether they'll be called by their actual military designations or not is still up in the air though...

[MeanMF]

I'd like to see what is going to set this game apart from the Ace Combat series. So far it feels very, very similar.

[Raide]

All I can say is this...get your Top Gun theme ready. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

[Livi70590]

Originally posted by MeanMF:
I'd like to see what is going to set this game apart from the Ace Combat series. So far it feels very, very similar.

It takes place in an entirely different world. Silly.

[Cons72]

Originally posted by Livi70590:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MeanMF:
I'd like to see what is going to set this game apart from the Ace Combat series. So far it feels very, very similar.

It takes place in an entirely different world. Silly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be the magical, mystical Ubiverse <-- I am trademarking and copy writing that, by the way. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[silentstriderm]

So I assume we unlock cash through both the single player and multiplayer for new planes and weapons? The IGN says in multiplayer, but I would guess it is in both modes?

[RawKryptonite]

Originally posted by OUTFOXEM:
Someone asked if there were going to be real planes in the game. There are two screenshots now posted on IGN of an F-16 so it looks like there will be.

Whether they'll be called by their actual military designations or not is still up in the air though...

They can call it what they want, just give me an A-10 in there somewhere. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hope this won't be all dogfighting, that can get old. Need to work some real ground support. Would like to drop a few bombs too.

[zterrans]

The pilot is likely American, judging by the accent. The plane itself it sparsely marked, with only a single yellow icon on the tail fin as some sort of marker.

It might be a private military aircraft, assuming that at that point PMCs were granted access to military craft. A lot of games are running around that theme, and I believe it was mentioned that one was involved with the enemy in the game. Maybe given the circumstances, they needed to call in non-military airpower for that mission, perhaps because proper assets were elsewhere, or simply not viable for the assignment. Its not much of an explanation, but its something for the moment.

[RawKryptonite]

Could be a joint strike force involving several nations. Gotta say, I don't care. LOL

The more flight options the better IMO. I didn't complain that the FAMAS and AUG were available in Ghost Recon either. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Cons72]

Originally posted by zterrans:
The pilot is likely American, judging by the accent. The plane itself it sparsely marked, with only a single yellow icon on the tail fin as some sort of marker.

It might be a private military aircraft, assuming that at that point PMCs were granted access to military craft. A lot of games are running around that theme, and I believe it was mentioned that one was involved with the enemy in the game. Maybe given the circumstances, they needed to call in non-military airpower for that mission, perhaps because proper assets were elsewhere, or simply not viable for the assignment. Its not much of an explanation, but its something for the moment.

That is kind of people's point about the story we are given so far being rediculous. In 2012 - 4 years from now - there are private military contractors flying $50 million jets in support of the US in response to an attack by another private military against the US?

[silentstriderm]

Originally posted by Cons72:
That is kind of people's point about the story we are given so far being rediculous. In 2012 - 4 years from now - there are private military contractors flying $50 million jets in support of the US in response to an attack by another private military against the US?

see below:

Originally posted by Cons72:
That would be the magical, mystical Ubiverse

[Beccera]

If you look over the Internet, you'll see various "Agressor" private squadrons flying military jets. The only thing they don't have is real bombs and missiles however most have all the avionics (Radars, ECM, HUD,...). Some links to those private companies' websites:
http://www.topaces.ca/index.html
http://www.nlcas.ca/
http://www.atacusa.com/
http://www.redair.net/home.html

And those are only a few of them.

Moreover, if you look here: http://www.globalplanesearch.com/view/all/AllMIMC.htm
You'll see numerous (ex)military jets YOU could buy, with the money. They're not 5th generation fighters but still... You can see MiG-29s, Mirage F1s, SEPECAT Jaguars, and a few older ones. There even were F/A-18, F-16s,...

Still regarding the accent, maybe this is only the accents... This is an hint, but I wouldm't say it's actually a proof about that.

[Beccera]

Originally posted by RawKryptonite:
Could be a joint strike force involving several nations.

I'd rather believe this. I think this is a very plausible theory.

Someone has brought up this (in the second page; see the following quote). Here we see a few more planes. A Rafale again, an F35 Lightning II (shooting the Rafale!?!?), and F16 Fightning Falcon and an F-15E Eagle (E is the ground attack version...). Those planes are all multirole fighters, which will make me think we'll see aerial combat & ground attack.


Does anyone remember this? http://www.mondoxbox.com/immagini.php?view=1&id=34589

This is the previously announced Tom Clancy's Air Combat getting a new name. GRAW-like HUD and cockpit camera.

[Cons72]

Originally posted by silentstriderm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cons72:
That is kind of people's point about the story we are given so far being rediculous. In 2012 - 4 years from now - there are private military contractors flying $50 million jets in support of the US in response to an attack by another private military against the US?

see below:

Originally posted by Cons72:
That would be the magical, mystical Ubiverse </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. Nice. Now can you get the red, white and blue bullseye shield, also? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[Lyle311]

Originally posted by Beccera:
Hello mates!

I'll try to do my best to answer your questions.
1) In both images we've been shown, those two are real fighters. In the screenshot, it's the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon while in the video, it's the Dassault Rafale. For now, seems it's gonna be realistic planes. I bet it'll be mixed up with near-future planes (which are not yet in service) as a few UCAVs, for exemple.
2) This will probably be between both, as in all Tom Clancy's title. It's at first for entertainement but will still be realistic. I hope we'll see chaffs and countermeasures!
3) Would be pretty cool if it's a good quality joystick with a throttle. I'd definitely buy one.
4) There is a PC version, just have a look over IGN. There's a few interesting info there and probably more coming.
5) I'd say yes, but it depends on your opinion. It will probably be more of a HUD than an actual cockpit display. Personally, I like that better since a panel partially hides the view. Moreover, I read somewhere (maybe that was for EndWar) that pilots had googles allowing them to "see thru" their plane. But nothing sure on that point.

I'd throw in some more information. It seems to be some connection between GR and EndWar; we hear of some "Mitchell" commander in the EndWar book as well as a mention of the Ghosts. There are some other links between I don't remember of.
As it there is also a connection between HAWX and GR as it's seen in the video, it seems obvious on my end that those games are all going to be a whole. And if you look on the tail of the Rafale (in the video), we clearly see what looks like to be an hawk... like GRAW's Firehawk squadron.

I personally played AC6 two days nearly non-stop (well, I slept when when I wasn't sleeping or eating, I played lol) when I rented a X360 for two days. I thaught it was breathtaking and had a captivating scenario, along with fast-paced action and pretty good graphics. I'd buy one immediately if it existed on PC.

Hope that helps some of you guys and gals!
FoxLeader

Oh so very well put, I am too an Ace Combat fanatic, and was saddened with their move to Microsoft. But maybe this game will be of some worth.

Personally, Ace Combat doesn't suck to me, though I've yet to play 6, but I have the slightest feeling this one will. Just down there in my gut.

[silentstriderm]

Originally posted by Cons72:

LOL. Nice. Now can you get the red, white and blue bullseye shield, also? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I wish!

[GrahamD]

I for one am a great fan of the HUD view. The most unrealistic thing in any flight sim is the restricted field of view and no matter how beautifully rendered, cockpit graphics eat into this further. The HUD only view is also great with a Fresnel lens system.

[Beccera]

Originally posted by GrahamD:
I for one am a great fan of the HUD view. The most unrealistic thing in any flight sim is the restricted field of view and no matter how beautifully rendered, cockpit graphics eat into this further. The HUD only view is also great with a Fresnel lens system.
+1. I agree.

But, as this is not everyone's opinion, I think it would be a great plus anyway to have it no matter each's personnal opinion since it would probably be roughly a 50-50.

[GrahamD]

I doubt it's 50:50, I think I'm in a minority. I'm just hoping it remains an option. Being able to toggle between views should keep everyone happy.

[RawKryptonite]

I'd like to see a host option in MP to restrict players to cockpit view.

[scoutrecon1979]

Originally posted by silentstriderm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cons72:
That is kind of people's point about the story we are given so far being rediculous. In 2012 - 4 years from now - there are private military contractors flying $50 million jets in support of the US in response to an attack by another private military against the US?

It is possible. I mean look at our military now. We already outsource a lot of the contracts regarding tactics and ops to include high priority targets to civilian counterparts. i.e. private security companies to mention one.
see below:

Originally posted by Cons72:
That would be the magical, mystical Ubiverse </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[DGTP430]

Originally posted by RawKryptonite:
I'm stoked about this game.

The obvious questions:

1)Didn't recognzie that fighter, will the game have real fighters or all fictitious ones?


You didn't recognize that fighter? C'MON!!!!