I recently discovered an extremely easy trick to find your target in large groups.

[Sprint-Please]

It's this skill called Charge. It's bloody amazing. It doesn't matter what lengths your target goes to, in order to hide, it can find him/her indefinitely. There's a weakness though, it can be countered with Smokebomb, Mute, and Throwing Knives, but it is easy to get past these...

Here's a trick:

1. Go near to your target so that they cannot have any reaction time to defend themselves.
2. Charge

Bonus: Your meter does not got all the way to discreet, you can easily get your target without using a neuron, while having a silent bonus!

Why this tactic is awesome:

1. Can be used extremely near to your target, thus no chases and absolutely no reaction time to retaliate.
2. It changes stun over kill priority, charge used against an offensive charge will win.
3. No thought process needed.
4. Pretty much invincible, all you have to know is the general area your target is in.
5. Targets cannot dodge because they are trapped in their groups, they will trip over NPCs and fail!

AMAZING!

<STRIKE>This was satire.</STRIKE>

This skill desperately needs to be balanced out.
Let's start with making Charge unable to use when two feet from your target.

[StarScream391]

Its perfectly fine, if I was the target I would climb a wall high enough to avoid this..

[Sprint-Please]

Originally posted by StarScream391:
Its perfectly fine, if I was the target I would climb a wall high enough to avoid this..

You must have a pretty fast reaction time, because pretty much everyone uses Charge two-five feet from their target. |: That's less than a second to move away, and you have to account for lag.

[gtfomysteak]

Every stratagem has its counter.
Runners are countered by guns and throwing knives (and intelligent players who intercept them), while hiders are countered by "seeker" abilities, such as firecrackers, templar vision, and charge. If you see someone who consistently uses charge, target them before they get close and smoke them. Or run like hell. That works too.

[SniffyPenguin]

If you stand next to me in a huge crowd, I'll just walk out and punch you in the face once you're close enough, without abilities.

[monkeyuncle8]

smokebomb stops charge also you cant poison with charge

[gtfomysteak]

Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
If you stand next to me in a huge crowd, I'll just walk out and punch you in the face once you're close enough, without abilities.
Really... And that works?
I think you need to play against better players.

[Sprint-Please]

Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
If you stand next to me in a huge crowd, I'll just walk out and punch you in the face once you're close enough, without abilities.

How often does that work? Hahahaha. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by gtfomysteak:
Every stratagem has its counter.
Runners are countered by guns and throwing knives (and intelligent players who intercept them), while hiders are countered by "seeker" abilities, such as firecrackers, templar vision, and charge. If you see someone who consistently uses charge, target them before they get close and smoke them. Or run like hell. That works too.

I know, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Firecrackers - Smokebomb & Flee. Templar Vision - Glow like a Christmas Tree. Charge doesn't have enough limitations, it can be used from any distance, its only limitation is the lack of turning angle, but its irrelevant because the compass shows where the target is. ):

I would prefer for Charge vs. Defensive Abilities to be on the same level, (I know that they are, but the window for defensive abilities is none when Charge is used right beside your group). S:

[SniffyPenguin]

Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
How often does that work? Hahahaha. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


You'd be surprised how effective naked stunning is due to the inherent latency in all AC:B MP games.

If you're only a character space or two away and I run at you and stun from a large, morphed crowd, there's no possible way you can counter it unless you were already trying to assassinate me.

Also, charge's disadvantage is its cool-down and restricted usage (on ground only).

[gtfomysteak]

Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gtfomysteak:
snip

I know, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Firecrackers - Smokebomb & Flee. Templar Vision - Glow like a Christmas Tree. Charge doesn't have enough limitations, it can be used from any distance, its only limitation is the lack of turning angle, but its irrelevant because the compass shows where the target is. ):

I would prefer for Charge vs. Defensive Abilities to be on the same level, (I know that they are, but the window for defensive abilities is none when Charge is used right beside your group). S: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's actually not true. Charge does have its drawbacks, as you lose any other bonuses you may have been able to acquire (incognito goes to silent, while hidden goes out the window). Templar Vision, when used out of sight or on an elevated position, can make it nigh impossible to escape your pursuer, while still allowing a pursuer to retain bonuses. Firecrackers has its limitations I agree, but all in all, a socially-hidden stealth player actually gets the short end of the defensive stick when compared to a roof runner with charge and smoke bomb.


Originally posted by SniffyPenguin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
How often does that work? Hahahaha. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


You'd be surprised how effective naked stunning is due to the inherent latency in all AC:B MP games.

If you're only a character space or two away and I run at you and stun from a large, morphed crowd, there's no possible way you can counter it unless you were already trying to assassinate me.

Also, charge's disadvantage is its cool-down and restricted usage (on ground only). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Few intelligent hunters will get that close to a crowd group unless they've already ascertained your identity. Again, you should compete against better players if this works very often.

[Serrachio]

Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
It's this skill called Skittles. It's bloody amazing. It doesn't matter what lengths your target goes to, in order to hide, it can find him/her indefinitely. There's no weakness though, it can never be countered with Smokebomb, Mute, and Throwing Knives, but it is easy to get past these...

Here's a trick:

1. Go near to your target so that they cannot have any reaction time to defend themselves.
2. Skittles

Bonus: Your meter does not got all the way to discreet, you can easily get your target without using a neuron, while having a silent bonus!

Why this tactic is awesome:

1. Can be used extremely near to your target, thus no chases and absolutely no reaction time to retaliate.
2. It changes stun over kill priority, Skittles used against an offensive Skittles will win.
3. No thought process needed.
4. Pretty much invincible, all you have to know is the general area your target is in.
5. Targets cannot dodge because they are trapped in their groups, they will be too busy tasting the rainbow!

AMAZING!

<STRIKE>This was satire.</STRIKE>

This skill desperately needs to not be balanced out.
Let's start with making Skittles able to use when two feet from your target.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[SniffyPenguin]

Originally posted by gtfomysteak:
Few intelligent hunters will get that close to a crowd group unless they've already ascertained your identity. Again, you should compete against better players if this works very often.

I don't choose my opponents, the matchmaking does.

However, I am in the top 30 in the world in 'Team Mode' Templar Score on XBL. I play against both very good and very poor players. I was simply explaining a counter to pursuers who hang around morph groups.

Please don't talk down to me.

[DarkVictory23]

This seems to be a common complaint, but without moves like Charge, than moves like Morph are too strong. So where does the 'balancing' act end? You change charge, you gotta change morph, which means you gotta change firecrackers, which means you gotta change etc., etc.

As other have already said, there are counters to charge and charge counters other things. Charge already has a distinct weakness in a very long reload time, so if you waste it offensively on a morphed group, you aren't going to be able to use it when you see your pursuer on your back a minute later.

[C_MAN_2117]

Originally posted by gtfomysteak:
That's actually not true. Charge does have its drawbacks, as you lose any other bonuses you may have been able to acquire (incognito goes to silent, while hidden goes out the window).


Actually that's not true, I've gotten Hidden Incog charges before. Just gotta do it just right (and no, I didn't have disguise).

P.S. It's a pain to snip quotes.

To OP: Don't really have a problem with Charge at all. If I get killed by it, its because:
A) I let them sneak up on me, and they used Charge for a quick reveal.
or
B) I let them close in on me in hopes of a naked stun while they try to reveal (abilities on CD), but they use charge.

Both situations it's my fault.
In A, could've been more aware.
In B, I could have ran, or used one trick I learned from Astlans manhunt video where you run up then drop back down for a stun/kill.

[obliviondoll]

Except in Manhunt, where it sometimes shows up to break up stunlocks, I've never died twice in a match to the same player using Charge, ever since I got the timing down for Smoke Bombs.

And on Manhunt offense, Firecrackers + defensive Charge = miss.

[MrGerbz]

Charge is largely fine, except that it automatically finds your target in a crowd.

[Vorschk]

I find using the morph ability more affective. Simply because if you charge at your target they can simply drop a smoke bomb and stun you and gain a few points . Also with the morph ability they have less time to improvise than if you charge directly at your target.

[Serrachio]

Welcome to the Forums, Vorschk.

[Aveen130]

You want to know a real trick for finding a player in a group, well a standing still group, trick doesn't work in mobile groups. U may of noticed that if you target an NPC in a group standing still, its animations reset. For example when your standing in a still group, your character, as well as other NPCS, are doing animations that look like their talking to each other like wave their arms around and bobbing their heads. If you target them, they suddenly stand still not doing any animation and then start over again. However if you do this on a human player their animations don't reset and they continue normally. Happy hunting guys!

[Assassinsyk]

I´ve got to show my support here.

Completely (or largely) agree with OP. To show I mean business, i shall put little numbers in there and call it a list.

1. I completely support charge´s purpose: to balance out morph, basically. For experienced players, only morph is a problem, since two/three of the same character can often quite easily be revealed through line of sight. The "overpowered" label would IMO come from way too much points. Compare it to gun: yes, gun has a purpose in this game 5% of the matches, when there´s a friggin santa claus going from roof to roof, and you cant get to him, or dont have the time. Gun his *** down, get a long cooldown and very little points, but at least get the kill. With charge, you can get 5 times the points (yes, hidden is totally possible. makes sense, that an assassin can run SO FAST NOBODY SEES HIM). Plus it´s guaranteed on defense too. So why is this NOT overpowered?

2. Because "you can counter". This is BS. You think you can, since you´ve met sucky players trying it out for the first time. I can counter firecrackers too, just by spamming stun. Obviously, I´ve been cracked by newbs. The times you, or I, have countered charge, we had time to hear the sound, and react. Even if you didn´t react, the player would´ve gotten discreet, which shows how bad he was. When you die and they get incog or silent, even superman couldn´t have gotten away because, of the mechanics. We know that there´s more lag and glitches than UBI had thought, and charge counter works in THEORY, but not in the real world when you have a good player against you.

3. Your answer? Anticipate, and mute before they use charge! This is again merely possible on Captain Obvious and his General Marching Band. Good players aren´t obvious, and even if you suspect them, you don´t mute or smoke when they´re out of range unless you know charge is all they use.

4. Oh, and I´ve been charged on a roof as well.


Here´s the short-version: We need to have charge for it´s purpose (although I think it´s cheap, I see the delicate balance), but it does not deserve as many points, since (while waiting on less lag) it cannot be countered when done right, making it a hidden gun with templar vision and bonus. Tweak it!


Side-note: just turned on my game, and my profile sets are not erased, for the third time in four days. Scary.

[STYJ]

It is really simple . If your pursuer can get so near you then you deserve to die .

[yuanxd]

A target morphed on a 5+ walking group is as annoying as charge (even you knowing who is him, is a PAIN to lock).

I don't use charge btw.

[STYJ]

I admit I use charge . It's cheap , no doubt .

But if I can get so close to you to use charge then really , I'm just making your death quick and fast . I don't want to have to stalk you for a minute just to figure out who you are , just like how Astlan plays i.e. not wasting time .

[Grygier]

Most skilled players keep mental notes of persona abilities and how they use them so I wouldn't depend on this.

[Assassinsyk]

@ Styj: If you can´t pick me out from the crowd or kill/stun me without autopilot, you don´t deserve the points.

[STYJ]

Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
@ Styj: If you can´t pick me out from the crowd or kill/stun me without autopilot, you don´t deserve the points.

Oh you wanna bet ? :P In fact, you won't see me coming because I'm gonna play like captain awesome .

Add me on PSN , i'll play with you .

Pkltan .

[obliviondoll]

I've... pretty much never used Charge.

It doesn't work that well, you see.

I don't call it overpowered, because I don't think it is.

Like I said earlier, I have yet to be successfully Charged twice in a Wanted or Alliance match by the same player, since unlocking Smoke Bombs.

I'm willing to accept that a players skilled at using the ability could probably do so, but players who are skilled at using Edward Vision can get higher-scoring Aerial/Acrobatic/Incognito kills on me multiple times in a match, with a little bit of luck.

Players skilled with just picking a player out from a group could Poison me for more points as well, and have done so multiple times in games before (I usually alternate between getting Lures, Stuns, and deaths against skilled Poison-users, as opposed to getting stuns almost every time like I do with Charge)

And I also mentioned before, Firecrackers vs. Charge = miss. Unless the target/pursuer is already lined up PERFECTLY, Charge doesn't auto-aim when you're blinded. At least, it's looked that way when I've been using Firecrackers on offense in Manhunt. Haven't really tested them against offensive Charge, but I already counter that well enough with Smoke, or just running up the nearest wall when I don't have a better counter available.

[Archosakun]

Tried charge, didn't like it. End of the story for me.

[STYJ]

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
I've... pretty much never used Charge.

It doesn't work that well, you see.

I don't call it overpowered, because I don't think it is.

Like I said earlier, I have yet to be successfully Charged twice in a Wanted or Alliance match by the same player, since unlocking Smoke Bombs.

I'm willing to accept that a players skilled at using the ability could probably do so, but players who are skilled at using Edward Vision can get higher-scoring Aerial/Acrobatic/Incognito kills on me multiple times in a match, with a little bit of luck.

Players skilled with just picking a player out from a group could Poison me for more points as well, and have done so multiple times in games before (I usually alternate between getting Lures, Stuns, and deaths against skilled Poison-users, as opposed to getting stuns almost every time like I do with Charge)

And I also mentioned before, Firecrackers vs. Charge = miss. Unless the target/pursuer is already lined up PERFECTLY, Charge doesn't auto-aim when you're blinded. At least, it's looked that way when I've been using Firecrackers on offense in Manhunt. Haven't really tested them against offensive Charge, but I already counter that well enough with Smoke, or just running up the nearest wall when I don't have a better counter available.

Firecracker vs charge = miss but I don't think anyone would use charge from it's maximum range . At least I never did .

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by STYJ:
Firecracker vs charge = miss but I don't think anyone would use charge from it's maximum range . At least I never did .
Thanks for the confirmation.

My point is... Suspect pursuer approaching? Suspect they'll use charge, better safe than sorry - drop Firecrackers, problem solved.

And when a Manhunt team relies heavily on Charge to begin their stunlocks... Good luck on that when I show up.

[STYJ]

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by STYJ:
Firecracker vs charge = miss but I don't think anyone would use charge from it's maximum range . At least I never did .
Thanks for the confirmation.

My point is... Suspect pursuer approaching? Suspect they'll use charge, better safe than sorry - drop Firecrackers, problem solved.

And when a Manhunt team relies heavily on Charge to begin their stunlocks... Good luck on that when I show up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

we should play against each other in MH . I wanna see how you use fire crackers . I've only used fire crackers in MH to get double stuns . Lol . Cause pursuers don't move when they're blinded . xD

[Assassinsyk]

Originally posted by STYJ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
@ Styj: If you can´t pick me out from the crowd or kill/stun me without autopilot, you don´t deserve the points.

Oh you wanna bet ? :P In fact, you won't see me coming because I'm gonna play like captain awesome .

Add me on PSN , i'll play with you .

Pkltan . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHA, a duel, then. At sunrise! Or sunset, so I won´t oversleep.

But seriously, I´m sure there are legit uses for charge. I´m sure some have mastered the art of lag, and can counter.

Also, Oblivion, I think outcome on the second or third time a player uses the ability on me is beyond the point. Given they have a long cooldown on it, and 6 other potentially targets, it´s not the biggest of odds they´ll charge me all round. But they still get massive points from each kill, and most times I can still beat them so I´m not saying it´s ruining the game or my fun, I just don´t think it´s within the ideology of the game. Honostly, I suspect that the possibility of getting hidden from it is a glitch or a loophole, since this is the "only" thing in the game that just doesn´t make any sense. Players have learned to take advantage of this, just as you will come across someone who can score hordes of points by utilizing the 2x score to the max when already in first place, giving them 2500k kills when this perk is ACTUALLY to give the poor sap in last place who can´t get any kills a chance to catch up.

That smoke can stop charge, and they even say so in game, but the chance of this happening without lag-cluster is REALLY slim unless you PREDICT that they´ll charge, I think further strengthens the theory that charge is on paper just a way to balance out morph, but has found useful beyond the original purpose.

But once again, I like the challenge of dealing with it although I rage to high heavens whenever they get me, and I think it belongs in the game, I just don´t agree on the handsome reward they get from doing nothing themselves and that it requires minimal to no skill in a skill-based game like this.

[obliviondoll]

Whispers make Charge EASY to predict though.

As does the compass vs defensive Chargers.

And... 2500k? I haven't seen anyone get that many points in a 5 hours sitting yet, let alone a single kill... (Yeah, I'm being a smart@%&, don't take this too seriously). But the actual argument here is the abuse of the 2x Loss Streak, not the abuse of Charge. Poison or Smoke/Focus would still get more points than Charge can.

And STYJ, I'm sure we'll get to run into one another in Manhunt sometime. Should be fun. After my initial experimentation with it, I've really only used Firecrackers on Manhunt offense, and pretty much never used them for defense (I'll be swapping them in to replace the Gun on what used to be a Captain Awesome build). Also, you may need to correct your post - MOST pursuers don't move when blinded.

[Phyxsius-]

Originally posted by Sprint-Please:

Why this tactic is awesome:

1. Can be used extremely near to your target, thus no chases and absolutely no reaction time to retaliate.
And who`s fault is it for getting so close?
2. It changes stun over kill priority, charge used against an offensive charge will win.
ONLY when one on one. If the Charge has picked a different target, you will just pass each-other, with the hunter killing and the defender just hitting the wall.
3. No thought process needed.
Subjective just as Templar Vision and "NPC lock glitch" or "in this area NPC`s won`t ever come" - Rome under the arches at the speaker comes to mind among others.
4. Pretty much invincible, all you have to know is the general area your target is in.
Only after the first TWO steps. Which are BIG steps: a lot of things can happen within that time-frame
5. Targets cannot dodge because they are trapped in their groups, they will trip over NPCs and fail!
See 1. If he got that close, then you deserve it.

This skill desperately needs to be balanced out.
Let's start with making Charge unable to use when two feet from your target.
Let`s start by making Smoke Bomb and Mute instant abilities instead of "half second" abilities. I am entitled to make this request because, just as you don`t like the "auto-aim", I don`t like "lag". My reason is better than yours, since mine is objective. Not fair, I know.


Regarding point 2:
1.Defensive charge can be and IS countered by: any aerial that occurs within the first 2 steps; any ground hunter that is close enough to have a assassination icon; any knife thrown after charge started; any firecracker dropped; any wall humping.
2.Offensive charge can be and IS countered by: any offensive used Mute/SB; any knife; any wall humping; any hay-bale.

Plenty of ways to avoid it. We appologise for the lack of the "I Win Button".


Originally posted by Assassinsyk:

1. The "overpowered" label would IMO come from way too much points. Compare it to gun: yes, gun has a purpose in this game 5% of the matches, when there´s a friggin santa claus going from roof to roof, and you cant get to him, or dont have the time. Gun his *** down, get a long cooldown and very little points, but at least get the kill. With charge, you can get 5 times the points (yes, hidden is totally possible. makes sense, that an assassin can run SO FAST NOBODY SEES HIM). Plus it´s guaranteed on defense too. So why is this NOT overpowered?
Charge is used just as a "normal stealthy approach". If I got that close I deserve my kill.

2. Because "you can counter". This is BS. You think you can, since you´ve met sucky players trying it out for the first time. I can counter firecrackers too, just by spamming stun. Obviously, I´ve been cracked by newbs. The times you, or I, have countered charge, we had time to hear the sound, and react. Even if you didn´t react, the player would´ve gotten discreet, which shows how bad he was. When you die and they get incog or silent, even superman couldn´t have gotten away because, of the mechanics. We know that there´s more lag and glitches than UBI had thought, and charge counter works in THEORY, but not in the real world when you have a good player against you.
Down to the player and personal skill. Those tools exist. It is how you use them that makes the difference.

3. Your answer? Anticipate, and mute before they use charge! This is again merely possible on Captain Obvious and his General Marching Band. Good players aren´t obvious, and even if you suspect them, you don´t mute or smoke when they´re out of range unless you know charge is all they use.
Down to the player and personal skill. Some are better than others, be it from practice or talent.

4. Oh, and I´ve been charged on a roof as well.

Here´s the short-version: We need to have charge for it´s purpose (although I think it´s cheap, I see the delicate balance), but it does not deserve as many points, since (while waiting on less lag) it cannot be countered when done right, making it a hidden gun with templar vision and bonus. Tweak it!
No ability can be countered if done right. Either we tweak them all or none.

[BeckWrecks]

I NEVER use charge. Maybe I should start using it more when I play.

[Assassinsyk]

Whispers what?! They make pursuers easy to spot, not their actions predictable? And glad you mention it, since by using charge combined with whispers, you can attack any blendgroup and get the stun, no matter how stealthy your pursuer might be.

And yeah, I´ve seen a 2500 kill, although more rare after templar grading. 1250 kills are rare, but not impossible? Probably combined with a streak or something, but the point is still that it´s because of an exploit, and i´m positive that´s not why UBI put it in there.

BTW: Some guy just throwknifed me, then ran and poisoned, making him break chase and giving him 100 points. Still laughing.

[MR-SMITH1994]

old trick....

[tallinn1960]

Originally posted by monkeyuncle8:
smokebomb stops charge also you cant poison with charge

Smoke bomb is not a reliable counter to charge. More often then not it is wasted. But I think as well charge is not overpowered. I do not bother to become a victim of that. If you force your pursuer into charging you, you make him loosing points. No poison, no focus, no hidden, the best he can hope for are some smaller boni and/or a streak bonus.

I do not use charge for a couple of reasons: as an offensive ability it does not add to your points like poison or disguise. As a defensive ability it is better, but I prefer smoke and mute here. And I feel like an idiot everytime charge is missing which can happen. Btw. the best counter to charge is step aside perpendicular to the charge direction. It is humiliating as well to the other player. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[obliviondoll]

You said 2500k (which is 2.5 million, or 2500000) before. Which is why i'd followed my comment up with the "I'm being a smart@%&" bit. It wasn't to be taken seriously.

And whispers make the pursuer easy to spot, and when you've seen them use Charge, you know the safe range to let them reach is slightly further than it would be against someone without the ability.

On the other hand, if you've been hit by a defensive Charge, you know the whispers will give you away to an extent, so you use better tactics on the approach - one of my favourites is sending a Morph group in from one side of the target while actually approaching from the other - they charge the empty group, and I lock on, join the nearest blend group to their new movement path, and even if I don't get the kill, I know I've got at least a minute in which I can hunt them Charge-free.

And there's also always the "Aerial Kill" option, and you haven't even tried to counter my suggestion of using Firecrackers against Charge yet.

[Assassinsyk]

@ Phyxsius

1: "That close"? The range is beyond smokerange, and I saw you coming and was ready to smoke, however the margins on this is too small for consistancy in a laggy game with too many factors involved.

2: No, its not about skill. See above. These tools are -supposed- to exist, and might have done so when UBI tried this on their supercomputer pre-release, and I´m sure they never waited 20 mins in a lobby before each match either. However, this is how it is on my end: I can press smoke the second they press charge, meaning I haven´t heard the sound and was gonna throw anyway, and I´ll counter. Other than that, no chance. Obviously same with knives. That is not how it´s -supposed- to be, and I think you´ll understand that no matter how much you love charge.

3: Player and skills develop intuition, meaning the result of all previous experiences. If all previous experiences you have with a certain player is that this player uses charge, you might be right and ready to smoke before they charge. But you aren´t psychic no matter how good you are, and when I´m approaching my target I am always dynamic and my plan for what to do can and will change depending on everything and nothing. Saying you can predict a random player and read their ability is borderline foolish, saying this is what it takes to counter charge has already crossed the line, and frankly just helps my case.

"If a Templar uses charge, predict it and have a smoking bomb on the ground -before- they press the button". Thanks, UBI.

There is room for error when using charge, but it´s up to the gods of lag and poor players, unlike anything else in the game. Same as with using smoke to counter smoke, it´s not SUPPOSED to be like that, but happens none the less. Players who use this frequently loves it of course, since it saves their behind, but as long as the lag is as is, this and charge should be tweaked, nothing else, since nothing else is so minimum margin.

[Assassinsyk]

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
You said 2500k (which is 2.5 million, or 2500000) before. Which is why i'd followed my comment up with the "I'm being a smart@%&" bit. It wasn't to be taken seriously.

And whispers make the pursuer easy to spot, and when you've seen them use Charge, you know the safe range to let them reach is slightly further than it would be against someone without the ability.

On the other hand, if you've been hit by a defensive Charge, you know the whispers will give you away to an extent, so you use better tactics on the approach - one of my favourites is sending a Morph group in from one side of the target while actually approaching from the other - they charge the empty group, and I lock on, join the nearest blend group to their new movement path, and even if I don't get the kill, I know I've got at least a minute in which I can hunt them Charge-free.

And there's also always the "Aerial Kill" option, and you haven't even tried to counter my suggestion of using Firecrackers against Charge yet.


ARGH, vicious circle. Whenever I respond something else that needs to be adressed pops up. Sorry, got carried away.

2500k, my bad, embarrassing.

Crackers-thing: I pretty much ignored this since you mentioned manhunt, and I only play wanted. However, I wont use this since I like my profile of poison/smoke & mute/smoke. It´s the most versatile, it´s the one I know best, and I don´t bring a gun if there´s one runner any more than i´ll have an dedicated slot for the one charger in the room.

Most importantly, I´m not in here for tips on counters, I´m here to show my disbelief that what IS suppose to counter in theory doesn´t really work for real.

[Phyxsius-]

1. Either down to player skill and/or player choices of the best course of action, or bandwidth - both irrelevant to Charge as a game mechanic.

2. You saw the hunter. You can run and drop a Smoke Bomb behind you, to delay him. Instead, you tried a stun. You failed. Personal skill. IF you didn`t see the hunter... you are dead. IF you are paranoid, you can run anyway and see if red arrows pop behind you. You failed. Personal skill.

3. Wrong angle. "Your mandate is to survive". You survive by either running or stunning. Both are not linked to hunter`s abilities. If I have identified "THAT NPC" to be a player I can do one of the following TWO things: RUN or STUN. Each additional second I am sitting idle is an additional risk - but don`t blame the hunter or one ability for your choices.

4.
There is room for error when using charge, but it´s up to the gods of lag and poor players, unlike anything else in the game. Same as with using smoke to counter smoke, it´s not SUPPOSED to be like that, but happens none the less. Players who use this frequently loves it of course, since it saves their behind, but as long as the lag is as is, this and charge should be tweaked, nothing else, since nothing else is so minimum margin.

The fun in games in general is that players will always end up with "unforseen" combinations, or "strange" usages for the tools provided. You are just annoyed that they "don`t play as you want them to". Adapt.

As to tweaking.. I`ll say again:


This skill desperately needs to be balanced out.
Let's start with making Charge unable to use when two feet from your target.
Let`s start by making Smoke Bomb and Mute instant abilities instead of "half second" abilities. I am entitled to make this request because, just as you don`t like the "auto-aim", I don`t like "lag". My reason is better than yours, since mine is objective. Not fair, I know.

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
Most importantly, I´m not in here for tips on counters, I´m here to show my disbelief that what IS suppose to counter in theory doesn´t really work for real.
Well, other than Throwing Knives, which I've only succeeded with once, I haven't had much trouble getting the counters to work in Wanted, Manhunt, or Alliance.

And I mentioned Firecrackers alongside Manhunt because that's where I've used them MOST, not because they don't work equally well in other game modes.

[Kutter28]

I find I`m starting to use charge more lately. Mostly trying out new profiles though and it seems to be working for the most part.

[Assassinsyk]

Alright, you guys are both articulated, intelligent dudes, and I will stop digging more of my own grave my discussing things other than the basics, since i´m sure to lose.

Let me occams razor this:

"the appeal and pleasure" of the game and all the ways countering it is easy put aside, we know for a fact that UBI intended for charge to be countered by smoke. I feel it´s a fact, but a little bit more relative, that it´s not working as it should. This should be fixed, is all I´m saying, not looking for alternative solutions or justifications around it. In my opinion, this isn´t my opinion (funny paradox), but UBI´s. Just letting them know, just like any other is letting them know of <random glitch> or MM-troubles. I can play around both blender lag and MM-troubles, but I prefer to get it fixed.

I know smoke isn´t supposed to be instant, I assume that mute will be faster, but really don´t know. But with the lag-factor, I think a little tweaking is in order as well, since it does nothing but cripple the game when it´s at it´s worst.

[Phyxsius-]

Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
Alright, you guys are both articulated, intelligent dudes, and I will stop digging more of my own grave my discussing things other than the basics, since i´m sure to lose.
You, sir, are one of the VERY FEW "non-zealots" around here. Thank you and congrats.

Let me occams razor this:

"the appeal and pleasure" of the game and all the ways countering it is easy put aside, we know for a fact that UBI intended for charge to be countered by smoke.and throwing knives
I feel it´s a fact, but a little bit more relative, that it´s not working as it should.Benchmark would say this: IF given enough time for the smoke bomb to deploy AND given non-kill at that point, Charge is stopped. OR, IF throwing knives are thrown when charge did not kill yet, Charge is stopped. OR, IF firecrackers are thrown when charge did not kill yet, Charge is stopped(not stopped per se, but avoided).

This should be fixed, is all I´m saying, not looking for alternative solutions or justifications around it.There is nothing to fix. The counters are working as intended or just as efficient against Charge, as game mechanic is concerned. How it is used is not a game-mechanic issue, but down to personal skill - you are confusing a bug for usage.

In my opinion, this isn´t my opinion (funny paradox), but UBI´s.Ubi has a counter for each ability, which is proven to work. Anything else is player usage, NOT game mechanic Just letting them know, just like any other is letting them know of <random glitch> or MM-troubles. I can play around both blender lag and MM-troubles, but I prefer to get it fixed.Not glitch and not broken.

I know smoke isn´t supposed to be instant, I assume that mute will be faster, but really don´t know. But with the lag-factor, I think a little tweaking is in order as well, since it does nothing but cripple the game when it´s at it´s worst.That was sarcasm to underline that one can use any reasoning to advocate a game change. It might even sound articulated, but it is ultimately wrong, because the issue is MY connection, not the actual ability.

[BeckWrecks]

"I recently discovered an extremely easy trick to find your target in large groups."

-Right when I saw this title, I immediately thought; 'OMG, they've discovered Templar Vision!'

[rocketxsurgeon]

Originally posted by BeCk41:
"I recently discovered an extremely easy trick to find your target in large groups."

-Right when I saw this title, I immediately thought; 'OMG, they've discovered Templar Vision!'

LOL
I had the same thought :P

[BeckWrecks]

Originally posted by rocketxsurgeon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BeCk41:
"I recently discovered an extremely easy trick to find your target in large groups."

-Right when I saw this title, I immediately thought; 'OMG, they've discovered Templar Vision!'
LOL
I had the same thought :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*haha, it only makes sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

[Assassinsyk]

@ Phyxsius:

First, haha, I mistook your sarcasm for a quote from someone else. Never we mind.

It seems it comes down to matter of opinion, and nobody will win that war no matter how much smoke and charge. You think it´s not broken, I think you are wrong. It´s just not as black/white as the way you summarized it, since I have been constantly saying it´s a huge difference between theory and reality, you can´t break it down to theory again by using your clever formula. IF smoke is thrown before charge, you MIGHT live, depending on lag. 9/10 matches, there is in fact lag, and for UBI to not take account for this is just lame.

Please don´t tell me to build another internetz, you´re telling me I need to adapt, and I´m telling you UBI needs to adapt, because the current net isn´t capable and reliable enough for these microscopic margins. It shouldn´t have to be nothing but foresight to counter charge (whether it be pre-smoke or pre-knife), it should do the job it´s designed to do, which currently, it rarely is (for 95% of the players, 90% of the times).

But yeah, this is me surrendering since I know i´ll never convert you anyway.

Edit: just to be clear, I know you didn´t tell me to build another net, just saw it coming and decided to smoke in advance. Nudge nudge wink wink.

[obliviondoll]

Well, I know I'm not a brilliant player. I'm decent, but I'm alert, aware, and I understand my abilities.

That's all you need to be able to consistently counter Charge.

As I keep saying, It doesn't work consistently on me, for anyone.

I can get killed by the same person multiple times in a match when they use Templar Vision, if they're good with it and have a little luck in their approach.

That doesn't happen when I'm up against someone using Charge.

I don't use Charge, and I don't die to it often. That's not "opinion" - it's fact.

You're saying Phyxsius is using theory, but that it can't be applied realistically. I'm saying that I HAVE applied most of what he's saying, and I can do so consistently. The timing of Smoke vs. Charge needs to be different from vs. a normal running approach, just like the timing against a runner is different from against someone a stealth approach.

When you know the timing for your chosen ability, you CAN consistently prevent the person using Charge from getting their kills/stuns.

Not broken, any more than running, or stealth play, are broken.

[Assassinsyk]

I mean, when even the people defending charge, and even you who doesnt use it, say you "just have to predict the ability" and act almost prior to it being used, that's a good indicator of some need fir tweak.

If we say you dont have a problem, good for you, but it's like just because Some Dude in Wherever can get in a game in a heartbeat doesn't mean the matchmaking isn't limping since I can make my dinner while waiting. A lot of people have trouble with this, and I have quite a few hours of gameplay under my belt so I know it's not down to how or when, it's about the mood of Internet that particular day. Is there any disagreement that mute or smoke sometimes bites you, and you get killed by someone you muted before (on your end of the console) they were within range? No, we know this, and we know it's lag, but not necessary how to fix it with current internet/technology. With smoke lag it sucks cause you get killed, but with charge, they get tons of points and win, and that's a whole other league of suck. It's just a bitter thing, but I understand how the users of it says they want to keep it as is.

Another bottom-line would be that although you MIGHT counter it, the odds are slimmer than with any other ability except for gun, but at least that isn't a homing missile, defensive, and racks up all the bonuses.

[Phyxsius-]

First and foremost: I am using Charge since I unlocked it offensively, solely in Manhunt. I recently begun using it in defense (2 weeks), because Mute is almost impossible to use due to lag in most cases. I DO prefer Mute over Charge for defense. So, as you can see, I don`t speak theoretically.

Second, I will take as example a professional game, namely Starcraft 2. They tweaked several units and buildings because they were adding an imbalance in the game, in terms of a side having an unintended advantage over the others. They were NOT tweaked because of lag, which seems to be your main issue here. But because there was no counter to a specific tactic/strategy made possible by the said units and/or buildings

Now... onwards to our problems:


It seems it comes down to matter of opinion, and nobody will win that war no matter how much smoke and charge. You think it´s not broken, I think you are wrong. It´s just not as black/white as the way you summarized it, since I have been constantly saying it´s a huge difference between theory and reality, you can´t break it down to theory again by using your clever formula.
What I am saying and what obliviondoll was saying is not theory. Those are used PRACTICALLY, on the field. I was merely explaining WHY they are used in such a way. Don`t mistake theory for practice/experience
IF smoke is thrown before charge, you MIGHT live, depending on lag. 9/10 matches, there is in fact lag, and for UBI to not take account for this is just lame.
Lag IS NOT game mechanic. A game mechanic is to be judged SOLELY on its intended use and how well is accomplishes the said goal. OUTSIDE EFFECTS have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on a game mechanic. Lag is present in ALL games, that is why PROFESSIONAL GAMING is done at LANS and not over "Da Web". As long as you will play WITHOUT SEEING YOUR ENEMY you WILL experience lag. But to use the said lag as argument is wrong in this context.

Please don´t tell me to build another internetz, you´re telling me I need to adapt, and I´m telling you UBI needs to adapt, because the current net isn´t capable and reliable enough for these microscopic margins.
Hardware issue, ISP issues, Router issues, NAT issues, at best NETCODE issue - NOT ability.
It shouldn´t have to be nothing but foresight to counter charge (whether it be pre-smoke or pre-knife), it should do the job it´s designed to do, which currently, it rarely is (for 95% of the players, 90% of the times).
Charge can be and is countered by any number of previously named abilities and/or strategies. Personal usage is down to the player, not the ability.

But yeah, this is me surrendering since I know i´ll never convert you anyway.

Edit: just to be clear, I know you didn´t tell me to build another net, just saw it coming and decided to smoke in advance. Nudge nudge wink wink.

I mean, when even the people defending charge, and even you who doesnt use it, say you "just have to predict the ability" and act almost prior to it being used, that's a good indicator of some need fir tweak.
I defend charge against bad/wrong arguments. A while ago I proposed upon a "Purist Mode" the exclusion of Templar Vision AND CHARGE. So you see... I don`t particularily like it, but I use it, just as others do. - don`t try to nitpick this - take it as it is - your arguments are not good enough to warrant support. Also, this game IS based on prediction:
1. I need to predict a defender`s use of Smoke Bomb or I give a free stun
2. I need to predict a defender`s use of Mute, or I give a free stun
3. I need to predict my target, so I keep incognito and/or don`t just walk behind him like a moron
4. I need to predict my target so I time my Smoke Bomb or Mute

Do we "nerf" players as well?

If we say you dont have a problem, good for you, but it's like just because Some Dude in Wherever can get in a game in a heartbeat doesn't mean the matchmaking isn't limping since I can make my dinner while waiting. A lot of people have trouble with this, and I have quite a few hours of gameplay under my belt so I know it's not down to how or when, it's about the mood of Internet that particular day.
It`s about how you adapt to lag and/or to gameplay. Not ability related.
Is there any disagreement that mute or smoke sometimes bites you, and you get killed by someone you muted before (on your end of the console) they were within range? No, we know this, and we know it's lag, but not necessary how to fix it with current internet/technology. With smoke lag it sucks cause you get killed, but with charge, they get tons of points and win, and that's a whole other league of suck.
They get tons of points IF THEY USE IT POINT BLANK in offense = in which case YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE to be blamed for them getting THAT close.
It's just a bitter thing, but I understand how the users of it says they want to keep it as is.

Another bottom-line would be that although you MIGHT counter it, the odds are slimmer than with any other ability except for gun, but at least that isn't a homing missile, defensive, and racks up all the bonuses.
Offensive Mute and/or SB, wall-humping, running...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...0uCI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Od5aFK0uCI&feature=related) - recorded gameplay by supposedly one of Ubi`s people, as it is pre-order multiplayer footage.

1:00 - notice the usage of Smoke Bomb = to run - he didn`t even TRY to go for stun.
1:12 - notice how Charge is used - as a speed burst to put some distance and get to the wall faster = does it say anywhere that I can`t use an ability "outside the box"? The Ubi movie certainly teaches us different.
Worth to mention the Charge/Smoke Bomb profile too.(playerbase needed 3 (THREE) months to get to that conclusion)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw4hTcHIj0U - notice the Mute/Smoke Bomb profile (playerbase needed a month to get to that conclusion)
1:57 - "I drop a smoke bomb to help with my escape", NOT "I will drop a smoke bomb to stun my pursuer".

So the legit question I asked before is: "Why do you sit idle when you have identified your pursuer?"

Possible answers:
1. You didn`t see him approach, in which case you are dead
2. You refused to run for your life, dropping behind you either a smoke bomb to stop him, or a firecracker and turn fast, or a chase-breaker.

[Assassinsyk]

Wow. You are one tough bastard, and of course I mean that as the greatest of honors.

By now there are simply too many digressions and side-notes and allegories to address if we´re ever to make the finish line (although the journey is of course the goal), my head is exploding just trying to process everything. If this was your tactic, well played.

Now. Ok, I´m sorry if "game mechanics" was a wrongful use of words, Im calling different native tongue and little geek experience for the reason on that one. But I still think that there´s a huge difference between "lab testing" in vacuums and the way 6 million will play this game, like over the net not over Lan, and this can and should be accounted for within the programming. There will be an X delay, so increase the margin, so to make it effective in the purpose it was meant for. You can´t test a car in a wind tunnel-ish. That it can be used outside of it´s purpose isn´t relevant, since it´s been said by the horse´s mouth that "charge can pick out a target from a morphed group", and "smoke (and knives) counter charge". We will never agree on whether or not this is true, however.

I will continue on disliking this ability since I realize that "everything possible in the game is legal", but I will always feel that smoke to counter smoke or sabotaging others´ kills or blend, is a sore loser thing to do. Although it probably get´s you the points, for me it feels like taking advantage of a loop-hole. Like killing civs to get a 2X score (or however they do it). I will prefer to win by better play as in outsmarting and catching my prey with their guard down, rather than expoliting this. In Wanted, I mean, I have no opinion on Manhunt.

Btw, used to increase speed, you say? So charge: "guarantees" kill, guarantees stun, guarantee hitting your target, guarantee hitting your pursuer, can catch up to/run from, gives you shaitloads of points, and is in my experience practically impossible to counter unless said charger is ******ed. It does have an awful lot of advantages over it´s disadvantages, but not saying it´s overpowered or anything.

[Phyxsius-]

My goal is to explain my reasoning or apply logic or prove what I am saying, not to make anyone`s head explode http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am a very blunt type of person, so any explaining will sound just as blunt - an undesired side-effect for which I appologize.

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
Btw, used to increase speed, you say? So charge: "guarantees" kill, guarantees stun, guarantee hitting your target, guarantee hitting your pursuer, can catch up to/run from, gives you shaitloads of points, and is in my experience practically impossible to counter unless said charger is ******ed. It does have an awful lot of advantages over it´s disadvantages, but not saying it´s overpowered or anything.
Saying "and is in my experience practically impossible to counter unless said charger is ******ed" doesn't tell me that you're not a good player, doesn't tell me that I should be insulting (as some might in this situation) and tell you to learn to play...

But it tells me that you haven't got the timing down for countering Charge.

It IS possible to counter consistently when you know the right timing for your defensive abilities.

Just like a player used to dealing with runners will have trouble timing Smoke Bombs to catch a stealth player, or someone used to Smoking stealth players will usually throw Smoke too late against a runner, timing its use against Charge requires you to get practise to learn when to drop the ability.

[Airwinz]

I hate charge with a passion i love how people who use it think there good it should be 100 pt kills just like the gun as it requires little to no skill to use.

[Assassinsyk]

Oblivion, I meant "inexperienced or fresh", not "******ed". Let's say the auto spell got me on that one.

Also, when talking about countering I'ts implied that this is compared to other counters. You yourself talked about psychology, as in predicting a player would use based on previous experience with this player, which isn't necessarily necessary with other counters, making charge almost a "have your cake and eat it too"-ability. Again, compared to other abilities. But we're going in circles now, I have nothing new to bring to the table.

I hereby leave the torch to Airwinz. Good luck bro, you'll need it.

[trikky d]

Originally posted by Airwinz:
I hate charge with a passion i love how people who use it think there good it should be 100 pt kills just like the gun as it requires little to no skill to use.

This has been my thought as well, but I would say that it should be worth a little bit more than a gun kill.

I think if a player uses charge then they should only get at maximum a Discreet kill. There is nothing 'Silent' about the charge ability.

Make a charge kill 150pts max (before bonuses).

[Zoidberg747]

Every ability you cant counter isnt cheap. everyone complaining in here obviously have no idea how to counter charge therefore think it needs to be NERFED. Pathetic

[xCr0wnedNorris]

Originally posted by Zoidberg747:
Every ability you cant counter isnt cheap. everyone complaining in here obviously have no idea how to counter charge therefore think it needs to be NERFED. Pathetic

I think you should tone down with the replies to these kinds of posts. It's starting to look like you're just flat out insulting the posters. I personally don't like charge, not because I think it's invincible, but because I personally think it's kind of a cheap move. If you don't feel the same way then that's your opinion.

[rocketxsurgeon]

Originally posted by xCr0wnedNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zoidberg747:
Every ability you cant counter isnt cheap. everyone complaining in here obviously have no idea how to counter charge therefore think it needs to be NERFED. Pathetic

I think you should tone down with the replies to these kinds of posts. It's starting to look like you're just flat out insulting the posters. I personally don't like charge, not because I think it's invincible, but because I personally think it's kind of a cheap move. If you don't feel the same way then that's your opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3 posts left untill 1000 Norris! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And i personaly have nothing add to the charge discussion. I don't really like the fact that it gives you a guaranteed kill or stun.

[Zoidberg747]

It doesnt, if you mute them they will charge right past you. I dont care if you have a different opinion, thats fine. Its when they start insulting the people who use charge. I only use it to kill hen im up close, and usually get 400 points for it. Like i said, you have to figure out how to counter it, not post a thread asking ubi to change it

[xCr0wnedNorris]

Really? Was it something that was recently added to the game? I've muted charging pursuers and they've still killed me. Although recently I've noticed it happen frequently. I've also been able to stun charging pursuers a couple of seconds into it.

[Zoidberg747]

Yep, you might have to get used to the timing but it is there

[Assassinsyk]

Zoid: what is the forum for if not exchanging opinions and info? Both to othe players and developers. I had made a lot of effort in keeping it constructive and listing my reasons for my opinions (more time on this than any job application, ever) so for you to respond in this manner is nothing more than a middle finger at me.

On the mute-matter, it might work but it's a coin-flip thing with very little consistency, even if I mute before they charge. The consistency and lack of predictability of the counters for charge is on trial here, not an ability for picking out targets in morph group itself.

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
Oblivion, I meant "inexperienced or fresh", not "******ed". Let's say the auto spell got me on that one.

Also, when talking about countering I'ts implied that this is compared to other counters. You yourself talked about psychology, as in predicting a player would use based on previous experience with this player, which isn't necessarily necessary with other counters, making charge almost a "have your cake and eat it too"-ability. Again, compared to other abilities. But we're going in circles now, I have nothing new to bring to the table.

I hereby leave the torch to Airwinz. Good luck bro, you'll need it.
I knew what you meant by "******ed" - regardless of what word you put in its place, my point remains the same.

And actually, prediction is necessary with ANY ability you're countering, if you want to counter it consistently.

The difference is in the specific timing based on whether the person you're countering is walking, running, sprinting, or using Sprint Boost/Charge.

It's not an ability that requires any more prediction. It only requires different timing on your counters.

I've already said I don't use Charge, and that I don't use it because I'm terrible with it.

I don't find it to be a very useful ability, and I don't see it being any more successful against me than any other offensive ability.

EVERY ability can appear overpowered when it's used by a skilled player. But EVERY ability will also appear completely useless when the player isn't good with it.

Charge isn't overpowered. The players using it are better with it than you are with your defenses.

Practise more against people who use Charge. Get the timing right. Before my PS3 died, I was seeing Charge fail more often than it succeeded. When I'm back into my stride, I expect to see the same. Templar Vision, used well, is a more reliable way to kill me than Charge.

[wolfrikk]

I have to say I don't care for charge, but I do use it when in the Hunting mode of Manhunt. Morph is such a popular power in Manhunt, and Charge can get you a kill or two in Manhunt. It is pretty much useless in Wanted or Alliance IMO, so never use it there. I know I use Morph when hiding in Manhunt, and it is easy to get stuns when combined with Smokebomb, even a multiple Stun of two or three with long lasting smokebomb. The times I get killed in Morphed groups the most is because someone used Charge. I honestly don't see many people using charge in Wanted, which is what I play most.

[InfamousiXi]

charge is for lazy people http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

[Zoidberg747]

Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
Zoid: what is the forum for if not exchanging opinions and info? Both to othe players and developers. I had made a lot of effort in keeping it constructive and listing my reasons for my opinions (more time on this than any job application, ever) so for you to respond in this manner is nothing more than a middle finger at me.

On the mute-matter, it might work but it's a coin-flip thing with very little consistency, even if I mute before they charge. The consistency and lack of predictability of the counters for charge is on trial here, not an ability for picking out targets in morph group itself.

I was referring to the OP and a few other people not you, my main point though is you can smoke, mute, run away, firecracker and run away, climb a wall, etc. Theres too many ways to counter it for people to say it needs to be nerfed. Its impossible to counter when theyre two feet away but youre dead then anyway. I get annoyed when people use smoke bomb, but i dont think it needs to be changed. I ADAPT which is the advice I give all you guys who dont like charge.

[cptn_k]

Originally posted by wolfrikk:
I have to say I don't care for charge, but I do use it when in the Hunting mode of Manhunt. Morph is such a popular power in Manhunt, and Charge can get you a kill or two in Manhunt. It is pretty much useless in Wanted or Alliance IMO, so never use it there. I know I use Morph when hiding in Manhunt, and it is easy to get stuns when combined with Smokebomb, even a multiple Stun of two or three with long lasting smokebomb. The times I get killed in Morphed groups the most is because someone used Charge. I honestly don't see many people using charge in Wanted, which is what I play most.

I was only using charge in team games, but recently started using it on one of my profiles for wanted, along with sprint boost.
I've found it very versatile in working towards variety bonuses and getting me out of very tricky situations quickly.
I can kill practically anyone without taking time (yes cheap, but quick = variety sooner), and I can use it to stun and/or escape when needed (again various variety bonuses available here), and with sprint boost to fire off quick for an escape after a stun.
I tend to use this towards the end of a game, where I may have more than one pursuer, and still need a discreet/silent kill.

I don't tend to use it when I want big scores for TG in wanted though.

It does, however, slightly annoy me when I get charged while blending waiting for abilities to come back.
And I still haven't managed to counter a charge very well with smoke/mute/knives/charge, bad timing on my part http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Magnitudex]

Here's A Video Showing You How To Pick Out A Target In A (Morphed / Blended) Group) It's Called The Lock-On Trick
ACB Multiplayer Video - Lock On Tactic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fR3CUuL94)

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by Magnitudex:
Here's A Video Showing You How To Pick Out A Target In A (Morphed / Blended) Group) It's Called The Lock-On Trick
ACB Multiplayer Video - Lock On Tactic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fR3CUuL94)
Someone finally gives us a lock trick video.

Thank you.

[Assassinsyk]

Originally posted by Zoidberg747:


I was referring to the OP and a few other people not you, my main point though is you can smoke, mute, run away, firecracker and run away, climb a wall, etc. Theres too many ways to counter it for people to say it needs to be nerfed. Its impossible to counter when theyre two feet away but youre dead then anyway. I get annoyed when people use smoke bomb, but i dont think it needs to be changed. I ADAPT which is the advice I give all you guys who dont like charge.

Well, you did say "everyone complaining", but ok. Still think it's disrespectful to talk that way to anyone expressing their opinion though, and although you're just expressing yours there are better ways.

Everyone here is happy to be a part of a great community, unique in it's lack of flaming and full of general respect and courtesy. Barking like this is the surest way to make people not wanting to speak their mind, or start barking themselves.

[Sprint-Please]

Originally posted by Zoidberg747:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assassinsyk:
Zoid: what is the forum for if not exchanging opinions and info? Both to othe players and developers. I had made a lot of effort in keeping it constructive and listing my reasons for my opinions (more time on this than any job application, ever) so for you to respond in this manner is nothing more than a middle finger at me.

On the mute-matter, it might work but it's a coin-flip thing with very little consistency, even if I mute before they charge. The consistency and lack of predictability of the counters for charge is on trial here, not an ability for picking out targets in morph group itself.

I was referring to the OP and a few other people not you, my main point though is you can smoke, mute, run away, firecracker and run away, climb a wall, etc. Theres too many ways to counter it for people to say it needs to be nerfed. Its impossible to counter when theyre two feet away but youre dead then anyway. I get annoyed when people use smoke bomb, but i dont think it needs to be changed. I ADAPT which is the advice I give all you guys who dont like charge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize for having an opinion you disagree with. I dislike playing the game on auto-pilot, so I don't use charge.

Its impossible to counter when they're two feet away but youre dead then anyway.
Not unless your pursuer doesn't know who you are, but all you need to do is press a button.

It's also unfortunate that smoke and mute are lag-dependent and that firecrackers are not a perfect way of countering charge. Also, there are times where running away isn't an option, and I'm not always hugging a wall.

My only problem with it is when people use it out of laziness. But that's my opinion.

"But your pursuer gets a discreet instead of an incognito!"
I tested this today and I got an incognito. Yay.

Yes, I have countered charge, but I only get a chance to actually counter charge every 1/10 uses. (before you flame me for being a noob, you are downright idiotic to say that you can dodge it when it is used 2 ft from you).

The skill itself is balanced, the way it is used is abused. But what can I do about it?
The only way of adapting to charge is to remember who used it and telling the future.

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
I apologize for having an opinion you disagree with. I dislike playing the game on auto-pilot, so I don't use charge.

Its impossible to counter when they're two feet away but youre dead then anyway.
Not unless your pursuer doesn't know who you are, but all you need to do is press a button.

It's also unfortunate that smoke and mute are lag-dependent and that firecrackers are not a perfect way of countering charge. Also, there are times where running away isn't an option, and I'm not always hugging a wall.

My only problem with it is when people use it out of laziness. But that's my opinion.

"But your pursuer gets a discreet instead of an incognito!"
I tested this today and I got an incognito. Yay.

Yes, I have countered charge, but I only get a chance to actually counter charge every 1/10 uses. (before you flame me for being a noob, you are downright idiotic to say that you can dodge it when it is used 2 ft from you).

The skill itself is balanced, the way it is used is abused. But what can I do about it?
The only way of adapting to charge is to remember who used it and telling the future.
I'm not going to apologise for my disagreement with you, because I know we're both capable of being polite to one another through disagreement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

If your pursuer uses Templar Vision from a distance, picks you out, then gets close, it has the same result, except that their cooldown has already started to recover before they make the kill. Advantage: Edward Vision.

If they use the Lock Trick, they can get the same result without using an ability. Advantage: Abusing a glitch.

If they use Firecrackers, you're blind AND easy to pick out. If you're in a tightly-packed group, you're often trapped an unable to run as well. Advantage: FC or Charge are equal here, but have situational advantages.

If you let your pursuer get that close and you respond incorrectly to their action, then YES, you DO deserve to die.

If Smoke, Mute, Firecrackers, running, and wallclimbing are ALL "not an option" then you've put yourself into a vulnerable enough position that you deserved to die. Smoke isn't consistent against stealth players who cut into a run at the last second either. No ability needed, no cooldown used. Combined with lock trick this is basically Charge, but without a cooldown.

And yes, you CAN get Incognito with Charge, but to do so requires a specific Perk (Silent Hunt) OR for you to get REALLY close before activating it (within Smoke Range). And even with Silent Hunt, Firecrackers can be dropped to spoil your plan pretty easily, if your target suspects you.

There's nothing Charge does that can't be done just as effectively without it. The only real advantage is that it changes the required timing for your defensive measures. it doesn't make timing the Smoke/Mute drop more or less difficult, just different. If you can get the timing down, you'll find (as I did) that instead of only succeeding 1/10 times countering Charge, you'll only be failing that amount.

[Sprint-Please]

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
I apologize for having an opinion you disagree with. I dislike playing the game on auto-pilot, so I don't use charge.

Its impossible to counter when they're two feet away but youre dead then anyway.
Not unless your pursuer doesn't know who you are, but all you need to do is press a button.

It's also unfortunate that smoke and mute are lag-dependent and that firecrackers are not a perfect way of countering charge. Also, there are times where running away isn't an option, and I'm not always hugging a wall.

My only problem with it is when people use it out of laziness. But that's my opinion.

"But your pursuer gets a discreet instead of an incognito!"
I tested this today and I got an incognito. Yay.

Yes, I have countered charge, but I only get a chance to actually counter charge every 1/10 uses. (before you flame me for being a noob, you are downright idiotic to say that you can dodge it when it is used 2 ft from you).

The skill itself is balanced, the way it is used is abused. But what can I do about it?
The only way of adapting to charge is to remember who used it and telling the future.
I'm not going to apologise for my disagreement with you, because I know we're both capable of being polite to one another through disagreement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

If your pursuer uses Templar Vision from a distance, picks you out, then gets close, it has the same result, except that their cooldown has already started to recover before they make the kill. Advantage: Edward Vision.

If they use the Lock Trick, they can get the same result without using an ability. Advantage: Abusing a glitch.

If they use Firecrackers, you're blind AND easy to pick out. If you're in a tightly-packed group, you're often trapped an unable to run as well. Advantage: FC or Charge are equal here, but have situational advantages.

If you let your pursuer get that close and you respond incorrectly to their action, then YES, you DO deserve to die.

If Smoke, Mute, Firecrackers, running, and wallclimbing are ALL "not an option" then you've put yourself into a vulnerable enough position that you deserved to die. Smoke isn't consistent against stealth players who cut into a run at the last second either. No ability needed, no cooldown used. Combined with lock trick this is basically Charge, but without a cooldown.

And yes, you CAN get Incognito with Charge, but to do so requires a specific Perk (Silent Hunt) OR for you to get REALLY close before activating it (within Smoke Range). And even with Silent Hunt, Firecrackers can be dropped to spoil your plan pretty easily, if your target suspects you.

There's nothing Charge does that can't be done just as effectively without it. The only real advantage is that it changes the required timing for your defensive measures. it doesn't make timing the Smoke/Mute drop more or less difficult, just different. If you can get the timing down, you'll find (as I did) that instead of only succeeding 1/10 times countering Charge, you'll only be failing that amount. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see where you are coming from.
I do understand that every skill can be countered. Every skill has its pros and cons.

Current arguments I've noticed:

Topic: Charge in concept is balanced, but in practice it is overpowered.

Argument:
a) Charge cannot be countered when it is used really near you.
b) Charge requires no thought process, it is the 'easy' way out.

Counter-argument:
a) If you let your pursuer get that close to you, you deserve to die.
b) Charge can be easily countered with smokebomb, mute, and firecrackers.

What I said:
a) From a distance of more than two steps, why should charge be invincible?
b) Smokebomb and Mute are lag-dependent, and it is impossible to counter charge when it is being used from a short distance. Firecrackers also require a 'pre-emptive' strike.
c) If I take the time to fool/distract/hide from my pursuer, it shouldn't be taken away by pressing one button. Templar vision can be strategically used (behind a corner, on a roof, etc.) But charge is a form of auto-pilot, and requires no knowledge other than the general direction of your target. It can be countered, but it is mostly used near the target, leaving no time for the target to react.

This entire argument is more subjective than objective really, it depends on the person's play style.
(not to mention it is circular augmentative discussion, as well)

Pre-emptive, risking wasting a skill. Direct, risking of being too late. I'm more of a direct player...
I do not like to waste skills in hopes of countering something that may or may not happen.

Therefore in this case, let's just agree to disagree instead of calling people 'pathetic'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[obliviondoll]

Originally posted by Sprint-Please:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
I'm not going to apologise for my disagreement with you, because I know we're both capable of being polite to one another through disagreement. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
Therefore in this case, let's just agree to disagree instead of calling people 'pathetic'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry if that was how I'd come across.

Definitely wasn't my intent.

Agree to disagree it is.

[Sprint-Please]

I was referring to someone else, obliviondoll. Now I feel like I'm being mean! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Zoidberg747]

Dont make a thread though, Ubisoft probably isnt going to change charge just because of a thread. My two cents

[Assassinsyk]

Here's to hoping!

The chances are slim, but we know they listen.

[Phyxsius-]

The skill itself is balanced, the way it is used is abused. But what can I do about it?

Not abused. "Out of the box".

1. Smoke Bomb = primary use when running (example somewhere in this thread in some of the movie links) = "abused" for stuns.
2. Mute = primary use for disabling abilities to run (as per "Your goal is to survive") = "abused" for stuns.
3. Firecrackers = primary use for picking target out of a crowd = "abused" for forcing Smoke Bomb use or "abused" for drop and sharp turn in chase.
4. Decoy = primary use for escape = "abused" for naked stuns.

List can go on but we need to get one thing right: Using an ability outside it`s primary goal or intended goal/use is not abuse.. it`s just smart or "outside the box".

According to this thread`s logic we need to say that ALL abilities are "abused", which is stupid.

[EDIT]Also, the main issue is Charge and points: I am closing to my target, which is in a morphed group. I intend to use Charge for its primary use : pick my target out of the crowd. SO, I TOUCH the crowd, then, based on compass I charge and kill. Down to my target to tell if I am a player or an NPC - because if I got that close, as to get my FULL points for incognito - then my target did not see me, or assumed I am an NPC.

But from the hunted`s point of view we DO have a problem: Charge is a waste of time outside team-games, in which Morph is used, due to it`s long cooldown. Charge is the primary hard-counter to Morph. Which Morph is used ONLY in Manhunt as a strategy (it is used rarely in other game-modes, but not as a full tactic). SO it makes sense to walk around in a morphed group, if possible a full 4 man team, while the hunters take turns "screening" or hoping that SOMEONE picked Templar Vision to mark targets. Lost time equals 60 points per tick, isn`t it? Attacking one by one means free stuns, isn`t it?

So.. as long as you will use Morph, I will use Charge. Don`t like it... play Wanted or Alliance. But don`t claim Charge is broken, or cheap or pays too many points when you cannot see your hunter approach or want a "masked overpowered Morph".

Are we done now?

[El Zo1212o]

It is my opinion that charge should require a lock or -if used without locking- should kill the first persona it touches. Or perhaps have it work the same way as the gun and automatically lose any discretion bonus.

Edit:

Phyx:
if I got that close... then my target did not see me, or assumed I am an NPC.
Nonsense. If I'm in a crowd of seven morphed personae and I'm the only player, it is reasonable to assume that I will survive the encounter and, if the game is Manhunt, that I will get a stun as well.

[Phyxsius-]

Edit:

quote:
Phyx:
if I got that close... then my target did not see me, or assumed I am an NPC.


Nonsense. If I'm in a crowd of seven morphed personae and I'm the only player, it is reasonable to assume that I will survive the encounter and, if the game is Manhunt, that I will get a stun as well.



Nitpicking. This thread is full of ways of defending against charge so I did not repeat myself. The issue was about getting lower points for Charge regardless of distance. Now, the mechanic of Charge, for the ones that don`t know yet is this: After engaged, it will drain your stealth meter REALLY fast = in 3-4 meters you are full red, meaning only 100 points for 90 seconds of cooldown. So, if you want to be smart, you will go as close as possible to the morphed group in which you suspect your target is, in order to get incognito, risking all kinds of nice things = smoke bomb and mute being at least 2 of them.

In light of the above, my target, which is whining and crying how I am cheap in using Charge, can see me get close and stun me, or can`t see me get close, in which case I deserve my incognito. The main point was that the hunted can do all kinds of sensible things before I even get close, let alone pressing that button.

Additionally, the hunter is actively looking for you, so you can`t have a stun in this situation, if we are to use your dearest argument: "Ubi did not intend Stun to be used offensively": you hope for a naked stun forced by an error = you should run while dropping a smoke bomb behind you, if we are to play as Ubi intended (evidence somewhere in this thread in a demo movie from Ubi). Now... read again what I said.. and again.. and again.. Charge is Morph`s hard Counter = you keep anyone guessing EXCEPT the one that uses Charge, which will pick you out instantly (OR NOT, if he aims for the last 2, while you are 2nd in front - in which case he will hit the wall and you will get a nice free stun - didn`t you know?). Charge is no more or less "cheap" than Morph, or ANY ability.

In the future please try not to pass the opportunity to shut up if you twist or missinterpret my words.

[EDIT]Please note that I did not comment your opinion. I only explained my reasoning for the quote you provided.

[El Zo1212o]

Originally posted by Phyxsius-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Edit:

quote:
Phyx:
if I got that close... then my target did not see me, or assumed I am an NPC.


Nonsense. If I'm in a crowd of seven morphed personae and I'm the only player, it is reasonable to assume that I will survive the encounter and, if the game is Manhunt, that I will get a stun as well.



Nitpicking. This thread is full of ways of defending against charge so I did not repeat myself. The issue was about getting lower points for Charge regardless of distance. Now, the mechanic of Charge, for the ones that don`t know yet is this: After engaged, it will drain your stealth meter REALLY fast = in 3-4 meters you are full red, meaning only 100 points for 90 seconds of cooldown. So, if you want to be smart, you will go as close as possible to the morphed group in which you suspect your target is, in order to get incognito, risking all kinds of nice things = smoke bomb and mute being at least 2 of them.

In light of the above, my target, which is whining and crying how I am cheap in using Charge, can see me get close and stun me, or can`t see me get close, in which case I deserve my incognito. The main point was that the hunted can do all kinds of sensible things before I even get close, let alone pressing that button.

Additionally, the hunter is actively looking for you, so you can`t have a stun in this situation, if we are to use your dearest argument: "Ubi did not intend Stun to be used offensively": you hope for a naked stun forced by an error = you should run while dropping a smoke bomb behind you, if we are to play as Ubi intended (evidence somewhere in this thread in a demo movie from Ubi). Now... read again what I said.. and again.. and again.. Charge is Morph`s hard Counter = you keep anyone guessing EXCEPT the one that uses Charge, which will pick you out instantly (OR NOT, if he aims for the last 2, while you are 2nd in front - in which case he will hit the wall and you will get a nice free stun - didn`t you know?). Charge is no more or less "cheap" than Morph, or ANY ability.

In the future please try not to pass the opportunity to shut up if you twist or missinterpret my words.

[EDIT]Please note that I did not comment your opinion. I only explained my reasoning for the quote you provided. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You sure managed to put a lot of words into my mouth here. All I said regarding that quote was that your assumption that trying to get a lure makes me(and my kind) an idiot is false.