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View Full Version : Idea: Disappearing artifacts/resources



Plemenit
08-23-2007, 10:41 AM
What if there are some nasty powerful artifacts near your town that will disappear in some time (2-3 weeks for example)?
My idea is this; looting the territory around your castle is rarely fun - because you'll eventually loot it all. As time passes you have a stronger army and those few and little monsters pose no threat, thus making those battles uninteresting. I noticed that the most interesting battles against neutrals are fought early on, when you have a small army..

So, for example - there would be a few mummies and liches near your castle guarding that xy powerful sword - but with a catch, the sword will disappear in 3 weeks if you don't grab it earlier.
Why this? Because it's always wiser to wait and accumulate a stronger army to have no losses when fighting neutrals (to collect items) - since you CAN wait. With this system you'll be forced to fight very early on to try to collect some powerful items which will greatly help you later on.
(*Reality factor* -- you can imagine them disappearing because some sneaky thieves looted the items.)

Having mixed neutrals would also add to the fun-factor, of course . . . .

Plemenit
08-23-2007, 10:41 AM
What if there are some nasty powerful artifacts near your town that will disappear in some time (2-3 weeks for example)?
My idea is this; looting the territory around your castle is rarely fun - because you'll eventually loot it all. As time passes you have a stronger army and those few and little monsters pose no threat, thus making those battles uninteresting. I noticed that the most interesting battles against neutrals are fought early on, when you have a small army..

So, for example - there would be a few mummies and liches near your castle guarding that xy powerful sword - but with a catch, the sword will disappear in 3 weeks if you don't grab it earlier.
Why this? Because it's always wiser to wait and accumulate a stronger army to have no losses when fighting neutrals (to collect items) - since you CAN wait. With this system you'll be forced to fight very early on to try to collect some powerful items which will greatly help you later on.
(*Reality factor* -- you can imagine them disappearing because some sneaky thieves looted the items.)

Having mixed neutrals would also add to the fun-factor, of course . . . .

Elementalist.
08-23-2007, 03:17 PM
Yeah right. And then the guy that has been having his fights will attack you with a level and artifact advantage and kick your butt.
Besides in some cases you can't but wait because there are outrageous neutrals while your enemy may get easy ones.
It's not the same you facing rune patriarchs while your opponent has priests to defeat.

PhoenixReborn06
08-23-2007, 03:40 PM
What I would like to see in relation to artifacts goes back to heroes 2. In heroes 2 sometimes an army of (neutral) rogues would defend the artifact when you tried to pick it up. The random chance spiced things up.

They also had some that you had to pay a small sum for and if you refused to pay two times then the artifact would disappear.

Plemenit
08-23-2007, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elementalist.:
Yeah right. And then the guy that has been having his fights will attack you with a level and artifact advantage and kick your butt.
Besides in some cases you can't but wait because there are outrageous neutrals while your enemy may get easy ones.
It's not the same you facing rune patriarchs while your opponent has priests to defeat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And why do you think that your enemy will have good (disappearing) artifacts around his castle and you won't? Have you heard about balance, ever?

The same balance argument applies to your other 2 points.

Well, if you're so against spicing things up, I guess they should make a toggle for those who prefer the old boring way of dealing with neutrals (i.e. accumulate a massive army and squash them like ants).

nevermindspy
08-23-2007, 09:44 PM
You don't need a game feature this this..

Start playing online (especially at www.toheroes.com (http://www.toheroes.com) level) And you'll see that exactly what happends , If you don't get the xy artifect fast enough(In 3 weeks if you like time ) ,You'll lose.

GrumpyOldWiz
08-23-2007, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plemenit:
What if there are some nasty powerful artifacts near your town that will disappear in some time (2-3 weeks for example)?

Having mixed neutrals would also add to the fun-factor, of course . . . . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I know that some objects can be moved on maps (don't know if arifacts can) with scripting (so single player only.)

There are other ways a mapmaker could make the artifact inaccessable such as blocking the region around the artifact after a certain day or making the stack guarding it a lot stronger (both by scripting, so single player only.)

But consider that it is usually not wise to take a lot of creature losses to get any artifact no matter how powerful. Losing a lot of creatures would tend to weaken you more thatn the benefit of the artifact would strengthen you.

Yeah, mixed neutral stacks and neutral heroes would be nice.

Plemenit
08-23-2007, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nevermindspy:
You don't need a game feature this this..

Start playing online (especially at www.toheroes.com (http://www.toheroes.com) level) And you'll see that exactly what happends , If you don't get the xy artifect fast enough(In 3 weeks if you like time ) ,You'll lose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm talking about single-player-entertainment. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Plemenit
08-23-2007, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GrumpyOldWiz:



There are other ways a mapmaker could make the artifact inaccessable such as blocking the region around the artifact after a certain day or making the stack guarding it a lot stronger (both by scripting, so single player only.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's also a solution. As long as it prompts you to clear some nasty neutrals early on.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
But consider that it is usually not wise to take a lot of creature losses to get any artifact no matter how powerful. Losing a lot of creatures would tend to weaken you more thatn the benefit of the artifact would strengthen you.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's debatable. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Especially since it's your "early-on" small army and thus losses couldn't be supstantial.

hommfan
08-24-2007, 03:46 AM
I like the idea of disappearing artifacts / resources!
Having Assassins pop up, just as you want to grab the artifact is also a possibility. (Although they were predictable in Heroes II -&gt; almost every time an artifact was not guarded, Rogues would appear)

Unlocking special 'gates' at a certain day (or week) would slow down the game!

New idea: maybe some of the artifacts can be obtained without a fight?

Example: Hero has Luck of 4
Awed by the sheer luck of [Name Hero], the leader of the [Name Creatures, Upgraded] approaches carrying a white flag. 'Although my forces outnumber yours, your luck will change the outcome of the battle'. 'Please allow my troops safe passage in exchange for the artifact.'

Example: Hero has Morale of 4
Awed by the overwhelming morale of [Name Hero], the leader of the [Name Creatures, Upgraded] approaches carrying a white flag. 'Although my forces outnumber yours, the morale of your troops will heavily influence the outcome of the battle'. 'Please allow my troops safe passage in exchange for the artifact.'

Normandy09
08-24-2007, 05:50 AM
No offense but I dont really see hydras or something coming out with a white flag in one mouth.

ImperialDane
08-24-2007, 06:11 AM
That is where mixed neutrals would come in, there would be troops capable of negotiating a surrender..
Of course i am not quite sure as what to say about all this.

I mean vanishing artifacts ? They would have to go somewhere ? A mage's vault, or some collector perhaps, but not just vanish..

Moragauth
08-24-2007, 06:12 AM
Such a suggestion would be giving factions who can creep early another advantage. I do like hommfan's ideas though.

ImperialDane
08-24-2007, 06:14 AM
How would that be an advantage ? It is not as if that place would be lightly defended..

hommfan
08-24-2007, 06:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Normandy09:
No offense but I dont really see hydras or something coming out with a white flag in one mouth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Blushes* That's true.. Maybe it would overrate Luck and Morale as well, since both can already hugely influence a battle!

Phoss
08-24-2007, 07:22 AM
I think it's a fun and refreshing idea. I can see how it's not going to work in competitive duels, but for single player and recreational hotseat games I think it's a great idea. Maybe something like mobile neutrals with artifacts, so they would move around, or disappear after a couple of weeks and show up somewhere else on the map. That way you couldn't just sit back and wait for your army to grow before securing valuable resources and artifacts.

Moragauth
08-24-2007, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImperialDane:
How would that be an advantage ? It is not as if that place would be lightly defended.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is an advantage in that factions like Necro can amass force much earlier, and can cut their losses by substituting fallen troops for what they'll gain from Necromancy.

ImperialDane
08-24-2007, 07:34 AM
Well in that case it would seem they have the advantage no matter what.

Moragauth
08-24-2007, 08:36 AM
Good point, they'd get the artifact anyway (which proves GoW's point.)

ImperialDane
08-24-2007, 08:44 AM
But again, necromancy has been reworked, so if said vault had a substantial force to protect it, then the gain would probably not outweigh the losses from attacking said vault.

Plemenit
08-24-2007, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hommfan:


Example: Hero has Luck of 4
Awed by the sheer luck of [Name Hero], the leader of the [Name Creatures, Upgraded] approaches carrying a white flag. 'Although my forces outnumber yours, your luck will change the outcome of the battle'. 'Please allow my troops safe passage in exchange for the artifact.'

Example: Hero has Morale of 4
Awed by the overwhelming morale of [Name Hero], the leader of the [Name Creatures, Upgraded] approaches carrying a white flag. 'Although my forces outnumber yours, the morale of your troops will heavily influence the outcome of the battle'. 'Please allow my troops safe passage in exchange for the artifact.' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, sweet idea - it doesn't involve much tactic but it's very rpgish and that's nice for a change. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And the point of the guy who said how would a hydra bring a white flag etc. ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) -- you see, hydras (and other neutrals) can already flee and/or want to join your hero regardless if they're "sentient" or not.. so..

ImperialDane said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I mean vanishing artifacts ? They would have to go somewhere ? A mage's vault, or some collector perhaps, but not just vanish.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll quote myself: "(*Reality factor* -- you can imagine them** disappearing because some sneaky thieves looted the items.)"

**the items

ImperialDane
08-24-2007, 03:36 PM
But the items still need a place to go, and the thought was that instead of entirely elimating the items, they would just be harder to get.

Plemenit
08-24-2007, 07:33 PM
They travel back in time to a completely different dimension - Heroes IV. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

Come on.. those thieves are REALLY good thieves. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ImperialDane
08-25-2007, 02:29 AM
Apparently so, though i still would prefer some vault, or collector.. or super-thieves hideout