Close Quarter Combat (CQC/CQB)

[Trade_craft]

I would like to see some Close Quarter Combat action in the next Splinter Cell. Don't get me wrong here, I don't mean martial arts. There are no high kicks, fancy moves, or exotic weapons here. Everything is done to insure that you live through a zero-sum (life or death) conflict. MGS 3 implemented a little of this but I would like to see it expanded upon. It is a real combat system that SEALS and other spec-op groups use. What would happen if the enemy Sam tries to grab from behind would counter the move and attempt to disarm Sam? In a situation like this, you are in too close of a proximity to use your gun. This is where CQC come into play. For example, I would like to see the enemy counter Sam's knife and grab attacks so that Sam would have to actually engage the enemy instead of simply grab him from behind. Realistically a trained spec ops soldier or those Displace mercenaries would know how to counter some of Sam's moves. When Sam confronted Shetland there was a little cutscene of them grappling. That was CQC, but I want to be able to control that instead of watching it.

[Trade_craft]

I would like to see some Close Quarter Combat action in the next Splinter Cell. Don't get me wrong here, I don't mean martial arts. There are no high kicks, fancy moves, or exotic weapons here. Everything is done to insure that you live through a zero-sum (life or death) conflict. MGS 3 implemented a little of this but I would like to see it expanded upon. It is a real combat system that SEALS and other spec-op groups use. What would happen if the enemy Sam tries to grab from behind would counter the move and attempt to disarm Sam? In a situation like this, you are in too close of a proximity to use your gun. This is where CQC come into play. For example, I would like to see the enemy counter Sam's knife and grab attacks so that Sam would have to actually engage the enemy instead of simply grab him from behind. Realistically a trained spec ops soldier or those Displace mercenaries would know how to counter some of Sam's moves. When Sam confronted Shetland there was a little cutscene of them grappling. That was CQC, but I want to be able to control that instead of watching it.

[Shadow_Net543]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trade_craft:
Don't get me wrong here, I don't mean martial arts. There are no high kicks, fancy moves, or exotic weapons here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any credibility you may have had was completly destroyed here.

[Trade_craft]

Please expand on your comment Shadow_Net543

[HorTyS]

i think he's confused, i think he thought that by, "Don't get me wrong here, I don't mean martial arts. There are no high kicks, fancy moves, or exotic weapons here." you were saying that SC:CT is LACKING those features and that thats what you want it to have, but i know you just mean that you don't want the CQC to go that far, but to be more in-depth than it currently is... that IS what you meant isn't it?

[seekcolin101]

one porblem tahts metalgear solid 3s thing that be kinda stupid for them to copy splintercell is a realy stealthy game wheer u dont hide aalot mgs ur supposed to run away or hide but with the cqc it changes it why steal from another game???? o also mgs 3 subsestence will rule with the new camera angle and online play!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

[shootingsnipe]

Seek, what are you smoking I could barely understand that inreadable peace of **** you call a post (No offense meant) but I would like a little CQC, but not people countering grabs maybe for incapacitations you would use CQC, but why would you try to use a counter when there is an extrmely sharp knife up to you corradid arttery?

[Spekkio9]

Martial arts is much more than just fancy kicks. As a matter of fact, many Japanese arts do not throw kicks above the belt, and are limited to a front kick. Also, martial arts that are primarily concerned with kicking and punching are called "hard" martial arts. Shotokan Karate, Muay Thai, and Tae-Kwon-do are examples of "hard" martial arts. There are also "soft" martial arts -- those that focus on controlling your opponent through the use of momentum, pressure points, and joint locks. Hapkido, Aikido, and Judo are examples of "soft" martial arts.

The military certainly does use knowledge from martial arts in its training. However, since the military doesn't have time to train their soldiers for years, they keep it simple. They select a sequence of a few moves and ingrain it into their soldier's heads. In this manner, the training can be internalized to instinct rather quickly. Also, the military is not concerned with the legality of lethal moves. A martial arts student has to learn to adapt to the situation and use the according level of force; the military soldier only has to kill, which also aids in the simplicity of the moves taught. They are designed to incapacitate and kill the enemy quickly so that a long fist fight doesn't ensue.

As one moves up to special forces, such as Sam's position in the Navy Seals, a martial arts background becomes the norm, not the exception.

ANYWAY...back to the task at hand...

In SC1 and SC2, there is no way you are reversing Sam's grab. If someone can get behind you and put a proper choke hold on you, like Sam does in those games, you are dead. It's that simple. So your situation of guards "getting out" of the choke is completely unrealistic.

I will however state that I don't know what the hell Sam's hold is in SC3. It's awkward and to me seems completely unrealistic. Perhaps such a hold exists, but it doesn't seem likely as A) it's hard to put on someone, even by surprise since you are coming from behind and grabbing the right hand with your left or vice versa, which requires you to reach across someone's body -- all in all not good, and B) it's easy to break out of unless he's got that wristlock on REALLL tight.

[seekcolin101]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shootingsnipe:
Seek, what are you smoking I could barely understand that inreadable peace of **** you call a post (No offense meant) but I would like a little CQC, but not people countering grabs maybe for incapacitations you would use CQC, but why would you try to use a counter when there is an extrmely sharp knife up to you corradid arttery? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont understand what ur saying first u come off all rude then say no offense ok thats like saying f u then i dont mean it.
Get what ur saying straight what i meant was splintercell doesnt need cqc it would work if they used krav maga a fighting style used in the book since that makes since sam would know something like that. So please shooting snipe dont be a rude person unless you can get your point out!

[Shadow_Net543]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spekkio9:
Martial arts is much more than just fancy kicks. As a matter of fact, many Japanese arts do not throw kicks above the belt, and are limited to a front kick. Also, martial arts that are primarily concerned with kicking and punching are called "hard" martial arts. Shotokan Karate, Muay Thai, and Tae-Kwon-do are examples of "hard" martial arts. There are also "soft" martial arts -- those that focus on controlling your opponent through the use of momentum, pressure points, and joint locks. Hapkido, Aikido, and Judo are examples of "soft" martial arts.

The military certainly does use knowledge from martial arts in its training. However, since the military doesn't have time to train their soldiers for years, they keep it simple. They select a sequence of a few moves and ingrain it into their soldier's heads. In this manner, the training can be internalized to instinct rather quickly. Also, the military is not concerned with the legality of lethal moves. A martial arts student has to learn to adapt to the situation and use the according level of force; the military soldier only has to kill, which also aids in the simplicity of the moves taught. They are designed to incapacitate and kill the enemy quickly so that a long fist fight doesn't ensue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are a genius.

[DarKA55ASSIN]

i agree,there should be some cqc in the next sc simllar to mgs3 but more advanced

[rikakiah]

Spek, Sam has him in more than a "wrist lock"--it's more of a pressure point for control. Now, is it the best choice? Perhaps not. Would it work? Very likely, in most cases, yes. I do like how he knocks his target alongside the head first--very nice tactic to get his opponent from thinking about anything other than his head (until his wrist is under control and there's a knife against his neck, of course). The problem with pressure points is that they don't work on all people all the time. For example, I have an extremely high pain tolerance--most people can attempt most any pressure points and I will be able to work through it (save for a couple done by one or two REALLY skilled people I know. Just like his lethal attack from a grab, there's probably a more practical technique he could use... However, I'm in Kung Fu (a bit out of practice, but that's another issue) and our teacher is friends with a guy whose entire art form is basically pressure points. Let me tell you that a person who knows what he's doing in this area CAN control anyone with simple grabs and what would seem to be even light, escapable touches. It's actually humorous to watch his demonstrations--he'll literally be reading a book with one hand and have a student moaning for mercy in the other.

However, as to the matter of adding CQB techniques to the game, I think it will focus players more into combat situations than the game was originally designed for. It will encourage (by way of a cool "minigame" or just cool technique) players to make contact with the enemy. This should be the last thing an intelligence operative is trying to do, regardless with how skillful he may be at it.

[Spekkio9]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rikakiah:
Spek, Sam has him in more than a "wrist lock"--it's more of a pressure point for control. Now, is it the best choice? Perhaps not. Would it work? Very likely, in most cases, yes. I do like how he knocks his target alongside the head first--very nice tactic to get his opponent from thinking about anything other than his head (until his wrist is under control and there's a knife against his neck, of course). The problem with pressure points is that they don't work on all people all the time. For example, I have an extremely high pain tolerance--most people can attempt most any pressure points and I will be able to work through it (save for a couple done by one or two REALLY skilled people I know. Just like his lethal attack from a grab, there's probably a more practical technique he could use... However, I'm in Kung Fu (a bit out of practice, but that's another issue) and our teacher is friends with a guy whose entire art form is basically pressure points. Let me tell you that a person who knows what he's doing in this area CAN control anyone with simple grabs and what would seem to be even light, escapable touches. It's actually humorous to watch his demonstrations--he'll literally be reading a book with one hand and have a student moaning for mercy in the other.

However, as to the matter of adding CQB techniques to the game, I think it will focus players more into combat situations than the game was originally designed for. It will encourage (by way of a cool "minigame" or just cool technique) players to make contact with the enemy. This should be the last thing an intelligence operative is trying to do, regardless with how skillful he may be at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wouldn't work. I happen to be a second-degree black belt at a Tae-Kwon-Do/Hapkido school. On one of the days we were doing grabs and stuff, I wanted to try and recreate the choke he uses in SC3. Not only would it be impossible to put on anyone that wasn't half-dead since you have to reach around and across the subject's body (so you can forget it if he's a fat guy), there is no magical pressure point in your wrist that would debilitate you that much. The only thing that keeps the guy there is an actual wrist lock - look closely, he's twisting the wrist - where struggling only causes more pain and perhaps the wrist to break, and the fact that he has a knife to the guy's throat. There may be a pressure point in the wrist to AID the lock, but rest assured it's the wristlock that would have to be keeping the guy there. Keep in mind that Sam doesn't have the time to devote to mastering the art of pressure points to pull a Xena: Warrior Princess on someone. Anyway, as I mentioned before, to even get the hold on is next to impossible. There are much easier, quicker, and more effective ways to grab someone to put a knife to their throat.

You are correct in that some people do not feel certain pressure points and joint locks. It's amazing how some people squeal like a little girl at the slightest twist and others won't even wince unless you break it.

And I really want you to try to sneak up on anyone (not your 5 year old kid brother who can't do 10 pushups, I mean someone with reasonable size and strength) and in a matter of 1 second put that hold on someone, and put it on right meaning they can't escape. It can't be done.

[rikakiah]

True--I was confused as to your definition of wristlock. However, there is a pressure point on the underside of the wrist that is moderately effective. And combined with the wristlock you mentioned, would be effective at controlling many subjects. I wasn't really addressing exactly how Sam was getting him in that position (most techniques I've used have merely been counters, where the subject is already "offering" his wrist by making contact with me, and were from the front or side--not from behind). The head knock would definitely help (but would be effective for ANY technique Sam would try), but personally, he's already got the knife, why not just do a direct approach with that? Perhaps combined with your simple headlock? Could even use the head knock to keep him disoriented so he can't react in the split second your arm comes around the front of him, but overall, just keep it pretty simple. This would also result in a much more efficient "lethal" move, if the player so chose, as crushing the windpipe or breaking the neck would be even simpler from this position

[Spekkio9]

That's my whole point: the hold Sam uses in SC3 is just not at all realistic. If you knock someone upside the head, two things happen: 1. they get knocked out 2. they turn around and swing at you.

[ShadowofNH]

I think this should contain a warning about spoilers.

[SHNAG]

I'm a ticklish person, i always jump when i get a quick poke in the sides, so pressure points would likely work on me. But the knife to the neck and holding the wrist seems more complex then needed. It would be pretty hard to rest a knife on someones neck without killing them, while making sure they know its there, all the while finding that certain point on the wrist and avoiding a elbow to the gut. I found the orginal sc1 move of the head lock, with a gun to the head rather effective.

the purpose was to focus more on the darker side of sam, people would flip out if he had a knife and didn't threaten someone with it.

Off topic, isn't MGS idea of stealth action is a pacman style game play, and hiding in a box?

[stealth510]

yes indeed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[seekcolin101]

Never diss metal gear ! your just mad you couldnt play it cause u only got xbox or suck at it. Its more complex since theres no rador any more if you played the third one!

[SPROGGY]

I too dislike the wristlock Sam uses in SC3. It may be "cool", but its not a viable tactic in a realistic special operations scenario. When its an issue of life or death, you use whats tryed and true. I think Sam should do what his Navy CQD raining taught him, a one handed smother and the knife to the carotid. Simple, effective, and inescapable. I have to disagree with one point though. Although I can only speak about the SEALs, martial arts training outside of Dieters system is not common. The SEALs learn everything they could need in any given situation from CQD. Many of the operators dont have time to devote themselves to weekly classes, especially when so many martial arts now a days are filled with fluff. I agree whole heartedly however that they should include CQC in the next game. If you dont like it, you simply dont have to use it.

[pdogsniper]

Sam doesn't use a wristlock!
He reaches around the persons hand (the merc or whatever's right hand), and with Sam's left thumb he presses in. with his forefinger/middle finger, he comes around from the other side, with these fingers in place, the thumb applies pressure, causing lot's of pain. coupled with him pulling the merc's arm out, that's how his interrogation works. plus the knife. Now, i don't like this pressure point (it's on a nerve in your hand), and if the person is double jointed in his hand, it won't work.

If you want to try it for yourself, hold out your thumb from your forefinger (hand 1), and with your other hand (2), take your thumb and forefinger and squeeze on that fleshy part between thumb and forefinger on hand 1.

[sam_fisher091]

I've used the wristlock (or whatever it's called) on myself and my friends, and it HURTS LIKE HELL. If a professional soldier, WITH A COMBAT KNIFE, grabbed me, did that wristlock and placed the knife to my throat, anyone, even mercs and soldiers, are screwed.

[Spekkio9]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pdogsniper:
Sam doesn't use a wristlock!
If you want to try it for yourself, hold out your thumb from your forefinger (hand 1), and with your other hand (2), take your thumb and forefinger and squeeze on that fleshy part between thumb and forefinger on hand 1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL...

Well, I also happen to be certified in pressure points (although it's expired). The pressure point you speak of would not cause enough pain to hold someone in that position. Also, of all the pressure points we went over in the seminar, that one had the lowest success rate, meaning that it had the highest amount of people immune to it. The application of that pressure point is typically to loosen someone's grip if they are using two hands, so that you could get a grip to apply a wrist/finger lock. Of course if you couple this to a knife to your throat, one would be stupid to try and struggle.

My point, though, is that to get to that position is impossible because Sam's LEFT arm is grabbing the subject's RIGHT arm from across the front of his body. That is extremely awkward to pull off. I don't really care all that much cuz it's a video game, so whatever...but just saying IF he put on a proper choke hold like in SC1 and 2, then there is no escape so this whole counter into a CQB scenario thing is just not kosher.

[rikakiah]

Just a note on the head knock thing. It depends entirely on how hard Sam hit and how quickly he followed up with his next move. A solid smack with little real force will simply shock (as in suprise, not immobilize "shock") the victim and focus all his attention to the attack on his head, allowing the attacker to target another area of the body unhindered for a split second. Of course, we learned the technique more for escaping wrist grabs and the like (generally when your attacker is stronger than you), so I'm not really sure how much more effective than not doing it it would be for an initial strike on an already unsuspecting target from behind, but the concept could very well still be valid. Sam's followup would need to be very quickly executed after this strike, though (before the initial suprise wore off).

Also, I was (incorrectly) thinking Sam grabbed the target's left hand (meaning a much simpler move--no reaching around the front of the body). I'll have to watch it again (haven't been able to play much xbox lately) to see exactly how he does the reach around thing. Some sort of initial jarring of the target's thought process (ie smack to the head) would DEFINITELY be required to execute that move. But again, it would seem more flash than real effectiveness. I REALLY liked the gun to the head. It's simple, effective, and instantly ready to deal with other threats. With the knife, he's got to PUT THE KNIFE AWAY and THEN draw his pistol if another threat approaches him (particularly since the threat of killing the guy you're holding can't be a reliable deterrent). During this weapon exchange, your subject has time to at least drop down (assuming he's in too much pain to actually do an effective counter), which would compromise the hold AND his status as "human shield". The other guard would also have the opportunity for a shot without risk of Sam injuring the other guy in reflex (assuming a lethal, but not instant, incapacitation). The knife is cool and has its uses (breaking locks, lethal attacks--not grab finishing moves), but I think it falls short for the best option in an interrogation.

[shootingsnipe]

Look I am 94% immune to pressure points (meaning 94% of them have little to no effect on me) and those that do work have low effectiveness but there are to than can cause me extreme pain or discomfort one is in the joint of the jaw (not neccisarily a pressure point I don't think) and the other is a point you muse strike to cause me pain which is in the precise center of my back but, it is reduced in size from all of my muscle mass but this has little to due with my point.

I know a little about many of the forms of martial arts and mix my skills like bruce lee.
but, I have learned lots about soft martial arts like spek said and they can be effective. Hold like the one used in SC3 do exist and a friend of mine who is a delta opererator has used this exact move more than once. It is effective though the way it shows up when Sam does it is wrong the true way is to grab on the veins of the wrist and top this will reduce movement not cause loads of pain, and also by the way you grab that person you will be able to lock the shoulder if you do a strong enough stun move yes you must, must, stun them and then afther complete 2/3 of the move (stun and arm lock) you can use the knife to the jugular.

[SHNAG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by seekcolin101:
Never diss metal gear ! your just mad you couldnt play it cause u only got xbox or suck at it. Its more complex since theres no rador any more if you played the third one! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chill dude! Its all in good fun!

[Cheeserdude]

RANDOM FACT
RANDOM FACT
RANDOM FACT
if you read the book, you might know sam was trained in Krav Maga.

[shootingsnipe]

I have never heard of Krav Maga in my martial arts experience elaborate please.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[XyZspineZyX]

Krav Maga is an Israeli Martial Arts that basically means beat the hell out of the opponent by any way possible. And I tried the technique, pdog, and it didn't work on me. All I felt was a pressure that was almost ticklish. And I have a weakness to pain. I always cry mercy if I am calm. But angry is a different story. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
Edit: I found the point. It is between your point and middle finger. Right now I am typing with my left hand I hurt so bad. JESUS FREAKING CHRIST IT HURTS. And I'm a righty.

[pdogsniper]

No, i'm not saying it's the most effective, but I am saying that it's the pressure point Sam uses in CT. The wrist lock is effective, and would work better, imo.

[Shadow_Net543]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plutonium_Kenny:
Krav Maga is an Israeli Martial Arts that basically means beat the hell out of the opponent by any way possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is very stupid. This is the objective to any good martial arts.

Krav on the other hand is not very good for ACTUAL fighting, but more of self protection moves.

Also, with pressure point, alot of people dont realize that the style around them is a substyle, and is very ineffective by itself. But, combined with grapping of some sort, they are more effective(just one example).

[rikakiah]

They "style around pressure points"? Which style is this? Anyway, perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you, but I know a guy who really JUST does pressure points. Of course, to actually get to a pressure point, you have to grab somehow, so perhaps this is what you mean? I forget the name of the "style", but it's really all he does. I also have yet to see anyone do anything but tap the ground for mercy once this guy touches them. And I basically do mean just "touch"--for one demonstration, he was reading a book in one hand, controlling his subject with the other. Was quite humorous, actually, as the other guy was writhing and struggling to get free and this guy was just sort of casually moving to counter, all the while calmly reading his book... It IS a purley defensive style, though--it pretty much relies on an attacker initiating contact.

[Shadow_Net543]

Have you ever sparred? It is extremly hard to tap a certain small point of a moving opponent. And most fighters dont just get grabbed. Alot of people clinch, then blast in knees if the opponent gets close enough to grab, so by the time you can touch a spot your face would be pulp.

It's different on the ground though, where not as much moving is going on, and PP's ARE usefull(which os why I only use them while rolling with people).

[Spekkio9]

To be technical here, the actual term is control points. There are different types as well; some you would hit, some you would push, and some work with both.

For example, you would hit the control points on the lateral thigh, but you would push the supraclavicular one.

There was a chart I stumbled upon one day that had the human body mapped out and the effectiveness of 2 levels of strikes on each point. I was very surprised to see how many were fatal for a "full power strike". Must take a **** hard strike to do it, either that or it's inaccurate, but it exsts...I'll see if I can dig it up.

Added: here it is

http://www.barrel.net/vital-points.php

[Shadow_Net543]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spekkio9:
To be technical here, the actual term is control points. There are different types as well; some you would hit, some you would push, and some work with both.

For example, you would hit the control points on the lateral thigh, but you would push the supraclavicular one.

There was a chart I stumbled upon one day that had the human body mapped out and the effectiveness of 2 levels of strikes on each point. I was very surprised to see how many were fatal for a "full power strike". Must take a **** hard strike to do it, either that or it's inaccurate, but it exsts...I'll see if I can dig it up.

Added: here it is

http://www.barrel.net/vital-points.php </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the reason alot of them are vital isnt becauser of chi or anything like that, it's because it would damae an organ, or crush bones into the longs/hearts. And those are vital points, not pressure points, so it's a little different.

I do know what you're saying about the different I guees you could call them 'activation methods' of certain points, but once again, a trained fighter isnt going to just let you rub his arm because he thinks it wont work.

[HorTyS]

i remember reading the book and it saying that sam uses "krav maga style" or something like that, and there's one part where he's being carjacked in the desert or something and he uses this form of martial arts to take them all out, i just wish there was a little element of this in the next game.

[lactose_]

Just to get back to the original point of this thread:

There really isn't a need for CQB moves in a game like Splinter Cell. As it is, Fisher is already ridiculously overpowered in the way he can kill anybody with one slash of his knife, or knock out in one move.

Any new features to a game should seek to expand on its core gameplay tenets. For a game like SC, adding CQB moves, IMHO, will only dilute what makes SC so good in the first place.

[DarKA55ASSIN]

yes but sometimes if u got overcome by guards,u need to do something quickly and dispose of them fast or atleast in some way(thats what the shotgun attachement is for)so they might aswel add cqc moves because its too easy in sc:ct were u just run up to a guard and press one button and thats it,hes done for.the guards should be atleast a little more harder to kill and reverse these moves somehow(e.g. in mgs3 snake vs boss)

[cellfan88]

Well I think that the wrist grip works in SC3 if the guards were actually like that in real life, it wouldnt work in the first two, because back then the guards weren't little scared weiners, however, it works realistically in SC3, because those cowardly guards are scared to death from a rock falling down a stair-case. They wouldn't even try to get away because they have such little self confidence, and they have a knife pointed to their neck anyway, so I think the wrist grip works in SC3. Also if you catch my drift I think the guards need some remodelling, sure having stress is realistic, but not overdone like that, its silly.

[rikakiah]

Spekkio, nice find. I only lightly skimmed it, but it does list several points of the backbone as potential lethal attacks, so I guess Sam's lethal move from a grab isn't all that far fetched...

And Shadow_Net, I never said pressure or "control" points were a fighting form (I did mention my example's style was a defensive form). However, when Sam grabs someone, he's not in "combat" with the subject anyway--the subject is completely unaware, so Sam would have relatively easy access to whatever points he chose. I merely was stating my comments to say that these points ARE effective and could be used in Sam's case to control a subject for interrogation--not that this should be his "fighting style" if confronted by the enemy. Personally, Sam's fighting style should be a few rounds to the chest from his pistol or a quick neck slash with his knife. I wholey agree with lactose (and mentioned this earlier in this thread and others) that more combat moves available to Sam would corrupt the style of this game and create even more people trying to make contact with every enemy in the game--the "perfect" mission for an intelligence operative involves no one ever knowing an agent was near them (ie, 0 KOs, kills, or sightings). The game should focus on all the ways Sam can avoid confrontation (alternate routes, ways to create distractions, discrete ways to bypass security systems, etc) not more ways to deal with confrontation (deadlier weapons, more combat moves, multiple ways to kill someone, etc).

[Shadow_Net543]

OK, I understand what you were saying now, thank for clarifying.

[sam_fisher091]

The technichal solution to the wristlock/grab move is to make Sam go back to the old "pistol to the head" interrogation, and just hold them by the neck. Simpler, and more deadly.

[cellfan88]

I totally agree. I missed that from CT its so much better.

[DarKA55ASSIN]

yeh and plus it did look alot cooler lol,the way sam grabs people looks weird if you dont really understand what he is doing