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View Full Version : "When Superman lost his Supers" an analogy of context to SC Conviction.



Knot3D
05-28-2007, 10:39 PM
"When Superman lost his Supers" an analogy of context to SC Conviction. I'll tell you why i believe that SC Conviction is like a Super-less Superman ;

SC1,2 and 3 put the player in context of a covert nighttime operative. This story premise of being a 3rd Echelon Splinter Cell, translated into a fascinating blueprint gameplay design, distinguishing Splinter Cell as a game on it's own.

Yes, T&L techniques of the, then, new Geforce cards/chips were a novelty ; but the way SC used it was integral to it's core gameplay. It was very different from other stealth games because it wasn't about just staying out of line of sight of your enemies. The specific SC agent context provided the means ; items such as the LightMeter and NVG goggles ; to help you solve infiltration/exfiltration puzzles by using light & dark areas to your advantage.

Of course, it was only an approximation of reality ; that Sam wouldn't be detected in dark spots and thus, the LightMeter is something to be taken with a grain of salt when talking about 'realism' However, it was a pivotal pillar in the foundation of the core SC gameplay.

Then there was Sam Fisher. A veteran spec ops soldier. This premise translated into gameplay mechanics ; providing the player with special moves which are, in real life, exclusive to those special soldiers with huge amounts of such experience. The technique, finesse and stamina to perform moves like the crouched sneaking walk, the splitjump, the inverted neck grab etc. Those things, are first and foremost which define the fictional character 'Sam Fisher' to me.

All these marvelous ' ingredients ' form the foundation to what SC is to me, and many others. These ingredients created this context, exclusive to this game series ; thus 'giving' gamers, these very specific and special moves and gameplay, which most will never do or want to do in real life. They are in a way, the Super Powers of this game franchise. It's a premise which dictates the core SC gameplay.

Then... the SC Conviction previews came. A new game, which technically, jumps the bandwagon of next gen physics, animation blending and crowd Ai.

However, the game is given a whole different premise, seemingly playing a majority of the game as a fugitive. No more 3rd Echelon gadgets, no more use of Sam Fisher's experienced speciality moves. It takes away the SC Super Powers and it replaces them with things which might be more realistic in relationship to our true real world.

Except for some mad hand to hand combat/melee skills, this gameplay context comes close to something I, as a regular 29 year old civilian could pull off, or at least try. I'm not saying gamers should go outside on the streets now to play Mr Fugitive, but i hope you see that this Conviction game takes away the wonderful immersive experience of playing as a secret nighttime SC operative.

The 'jump' from civilian to fugitive is a whole lot closer than from civilian to splinter cell agent. Thus, it's easy to see why games like Metal Gear Solid keep their shine ; because they provide you gameplay action slightly removed from reality, but immersive, as a fictional reality on it's own. People are hyped for Assassin's Creed, because the time setting and Altair character, are extremely remote from real life, yet they'll convince and immerce you into their game world by means of special moves and gameplay circumstances.

My question to Ubi would be ; why not evolve upon, the core of SC Chaos Theory ?

Some people might say that they got bored of the same old same old and that this core has reached it's proverbial peak.

I highly disagree.

Kojima, tried to implement into MGS2 what SC is about : the MGS2 preview showed parts in the game where Snake would cast a shadow which could be seen/detected by enemy Ai ; you would REALLY have to watch out where you cast shadows. A noble strive, but unfortunately, he found that the PS2 was not able to have the Ai detect & recognize realtime casted shadows.

This is something, the SC games have not achieved either. Yes, they gave you the ILLUSION, that enemies could detect your shadow, but it circumvented the game it's shortcomings by means of 'smoke & mirrors' Ai.

Now, with next gen power, this would have been the ultimate opportunity to finally deliver this shadow gameplay in the way it was meant to be ; enemies, being able to 'read' your casted shadows, reflections and silhouettes ; this would bring back the challenging aspect to the core SC gameplay ; creating a challenging balance to your means of leverage ; LightMeter & NVG. This would imo, be the true next level evolution of SC CT gameplay, making the old games' "Super Powers" feel like fakes.

However, Ubi's not doing that. Next Gen developing is expensive and hyper physics dynamics and crowd Ai seem to be 'crowd pleasers' (lol) which are to them, the the supposedly 'money makers'. With Assassin's Creed already in expensive development and story franchises like 24 being pretty popular amongst a big audience ; it was probably logical to them, to choose to fuse these ingredients together and mold it into cost effective game development - instead of REALLY putting in an effort to evolve upon Chaos Theory gameplay core, as my example described it.

Knowing Ubi Montreal, the Conviction game will probably outshine SC DA and it might even be a pretty fun action game on itself. However, the core values, as Ubi likes to refer to the SC 'Super Powers', have been lost by their own doing and thus, it's a missed opportunity to let all gamers and potential gamers get to know the evolved core of SC1,2 and 3 gameplay core.

It's sad to see that some people and Ubi execs, want to make us believe that the evolution of CT has no future. MGS4, amongst some other games, will imo, prove that viewpoint to be the wrong one ; it's also sad to see some people try to ridicule MGS4 and they'll be probably be blind to see how that game stays true to it's essence, to it's Supers, while evolving the FUN of MGS.

MadamTampini
05-28-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Knot3D:
However, the game is given a whole different premise, seemingly playing a majority of the game as a fugitive. No more 3rd Echelon gadgets, no more use of Sam Fisher's experienced speciality moves. It takes away the SC Super Powers and it replaces them with things which might be more realistic in relationship to our true real world.

Except for some mad hand to hand combat/melee skills, this gameplay context comes close to something I, as a regular 29 year old civilian could pull off, or at least try. I'm not saying gamers should go outside on the streets now to play Mr Fugitive, but i hope you see that this Conviction game takes away the wonderful immersive experience of playing as a secret nighttime SC operative.

I like all the assumptions in your post. You're talking like you've played the game, and there has not been much information released about it.

Warrior0fLight
05-28-2007, 11:02 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif AND http://www.commoncomputers.com/scct/daposter.gif

HanzWolfgen
05-28-2007, 11:05 PM
Agree and disagree.

However, I think there is some nobility in Conviction. The title itself tells it. Splinter Cell has gone from unrealism and pretensiousness to modesty and reality. It's like 007 to Jason Bourne. A pure state of the art gaming keeps it simple, she does not try too hard to impress. I believe those who are up to realistic challenges are going to be facing a more dangerous enviroment with fewer and inferior resources. Sam Fisher and us, the players are compelled to show his/our real abilities. Now That is a challege.

As for MSG, remember the coolest fights were done without weapons... as Gray Fox said: "That's it Snake, hand to hand, the basis of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life on a weapon"

Sam's superpowers does not lie upon the SC-20k, the tri-goggles, or the suit. Sam's powers is within him.

Knot3D
05-28-2007, 11:06 PM
^ ^ You also have to admit that SC DA promised us a boatload of ínnovation goodies. When people were sceptic about SC DA, they were ridiculed as well.

MadamTampini
05-28-2007, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by HanzWolfgen:
Sam's superpowers does not lie upon the SC-20k, the tri-goggles, or the suit. Sam's powers is within him.

Bingo.

Stealth_chill
05-28-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by HanzWolfgen:
Sam's powers is within him.

well done young grasshopper! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Knot3D
05-29-2007, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by MadamTampini:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanzWolfgen:
Sam's superpowers does not lie upon the SC-20k, the tri-goggles, or the suit. Sam's powers is within him.

Bingo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Missing the point of my post. Sam Fisher, the character is one of the elements which provided the basics of the SC gameplay.

In SC Conviction, his persona is basically used as a a mere name.

randolfphe
05-29-2007, 12:17 AM
if they do the hand to hand combat, make sure it's based on special forces training and the like. then maybe the stealth athletics of the previous games can transfer over as overt close quarters combat...seeing as how we're pretty much dead set with the social stealth mechanics

MKCC14
05-29-2007, 01:23 PM
Well I got bored of MGS series and thats why I dont play it anymore. I tried to play MGS3 and couldnt. Yeah, I was a big fan of MGS but when SC came it was over. The same thing would have probably happened to me after another sequel or two i think, but starting with something that is new and that I havent tried before is something that will keep me coming back even longer.

This is just to me, though, personally.

Knot3D
05-29-2007, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by MKCC14:
This is just to me, though, personally.

Maybe so, because imo, MGS3 somehow brought back that MGS1 feeling to me... something i really missed in MGS2. Even though ,ironically, MGS2 mimics MGS1's events.

Anyway, MGS3 returned to roots (Metal Gear MSX) and innovated at the same time (camo system, jungle environment, Subsistence 3rd person cam) ; something which was crucial to the series because it re-established my faith in MGS as a series.

I hoped SC5 would return to roots as well, after the halfway side step named SC DA.

Shadowcancer55
05-29-2007, 04:18 PM
This isn't freakin star wars, Sam has no super powers, he doesn't have this super "power" inside him... IS this a stealth action game or a comic book??

I agree with the topic starter... that fisherest is silly...

braiog
05-29-2007, 04:40 PM
Here's my opinion.

SCC is not Splinter Cell. It's fine if Ubi wants to make a new game with the current feature lineup, but it's simply not stealth action, nor is it stealth action "refined".

But there are ways Ubi could have pushed the envelope of what SC-SCCT were in order to bring us a TRUE Stealth Action sequel (I'm considering DA a total flop not worthy of the SC name only due to technical difficulties)

And how does a developer go about doing this? Actively polling the community. Though I don't speak for the community, I think what we enjoy is a cross-section of gameplay, specifically garnered around a somewhat FPS based 1st/3rd person game that utilizes light and shadow, high tech gadgetry, subterfuge, on-your-feet thinking type of espionage that caters to "cloak and dagger" storylines.

Now, SC has taken that only so far. I'm sure if they sat down they could flesh out some really sweet ideas to push the series along. SC-SCCT sold well and were rated well. This is a success, so why not give the community more of what it wants.

The thrill was getting caught. Me, personally, I liked the fact that you gave us loadout types, but I always took STEALTH, ensuring that lethal action was my UTTERLY LAST choice to complete a mission. After all, I'm a spy. And the challenge in SC has always been doing the job, and not getting caught. Using your wits, looking at your surroundings, and overcoming those obstacles in devious and clever ways. Confusing your foes so that you sneak right past them, right behind them, or in all ways in a manner where they never knew you were there.

That was the thrill we enjoyed. And it seems to us that a generation of "THAT'S TOO HARD! Give Sam a Rocket Launcher!" players wanted to deviate this true form of Stealth.

Play on the fact that Sam is an operative. Give him more mo-capped methods of handling enemies in certain situations. Disarm a guard, armlock a cop to the wall. Real-life tactics that are true to the series, and revolve around the role that Sam play(ed), which was a highly trained, gadget-toting, night suit wearing, goggle-donning spy who could either kill you 4 times before you hit the ground, or complete his mission without anyone ever knowing he was there.

Sam's history has been ruined. And the only way we could get back to this type of gameplay and maintain the lineage of the series is to make a game that is a prequel to SC1. Maybe 'Splinter Cell' missions before they were called that and formed by Third Echelon.

SC is going the wrong direction, IMO. We're losing out on not only an addictive SP game type, but an addictive MP type as well.

MadamTampini
05-29-2007, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Shadowcancer55:
I agree with the topic starter... that fisherest is silly...

Just because you agree with an opinion opposite of mine doesn't mean you have to call me names http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

braiog
05-29-2007, 05:41 PM
Very true. Name-calling basically means it's come down to the realization that you cannot form a coherent or civilized debate with someone and to fill the void of failure, you just throw insults.

It's kind of a quick way of saying "I'm too stupid to form an intelligent response to your point."

Knot3D
05-29-2007, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by braiog:
Play on the fact that Sam is an operative. Give him more mo-capped methods of handling enemies in certain situations. Disarm a guard, armlock a cop to the wall. Real-life tactics that are true to the series, and revolve around the role that Sam play(ed), which was a highly trained, gadget-toting, night suit wearing, goggle-donning spy who could either kill you 4 times before you hit the ground, or complete his mission without anyone ever knowing he was there.

SC is going the wrong direction, IMO. We're losing out on not only an addictive SP game type, but an addictive MP type as well.

Actually... i believe ( thus a mere opinion ) that it's expanded elements & possibilities of close quarters combat & next gen physics which have lead to a game like Conviction.

SC1 did shine imo, because Sam only had one single combat move ; the elbow punch... and it was a fairly ineffective move at that. But that was exactly the POINT !

You shouldn't need to use it in the first place .... because we were supposed to sneak by without combat interaction. Yes, i am aware that the Ai was not really sufficient to counter, nor were the limited amounts of guards... but playing true to 'passing by or killing enemies without being detected by them first' made me restart the section if i screwed up. That's where the tensity of gameplay came from.

I am OK though with moves like the inverted neck snap, because it is a non reactive move ; if the guard didn't detect me i'd neck snap/choke him unconscious. If he DID see me, he'd rightfully shoot me down.

braiog
05-29-2007, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I guess I was trying to provide alternatives to the SCCT gameplay that allowed for core gameplay (where you try to evade detection), but then you also have the ability to use features that were not present in SCCT (Like how DA had a couple ground locking moves)

Shadowcancer55
05-29-2007, 06:48 PM
There is nothing to debate, you're just silly. Sorry calling you silly is insulting?

Cry me a river?

MadamTampini
05-29-2007, 06:57 PM
There is plenty to debate. In the context of your post, calling me "silly" is a put down. But this is extremely off topic to the thread.

Brownsnakeeyes
05-29-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by HanzWolfgen:
Agree and disagree.

However, I think there is some nobility in Conviction. The title itself tells it. Splinter Cell has gone from unrealism and pretensiousness to modesty and reality. It's like 007 to Jason Bourne. A pure state of the art gaming keeps it simple, she does not try too hard to impress. I believe those who are up to realistic challenges are going to be facing a more dangerous enviroment with fewer and inferior resources. Sam Fisher and us, the players are compelled to show his/our real abilities. Now That is a challege.

As for MSG, remember the coolest fights were done without weapons... as Gray Fox said: "That's it Snake, hand to hand, the basis of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life on a weapon"

Sam's superpowers does not lie upon the SC-20k, the tri-goggles, or the suit. Sam's powers is within him.

Maybe you read it wrong. he never said that those were Sam's " super powers". Here's what he said:

Then there was Sam Fisher. A veteran spec ops soldier. This premise translated into gameplay mechanics ; providing the player with special moves which are, in real life, exclusive to those special soldiers with huge amounts of such experience. The technique, finesse and stamina to perform moves like the crouched sneaking walk, the splitjump, the inverted neck grab etc. Those things, are first and foremost which define the fictional character 'Sam Fisher' to me.

All these marvelous ' ingredients ' form the foundation to what SC is to me, and many others. These ingredients created this context, exclusive to this game series ; thus 'giving' gamers, these very specific and special moves and gameplay, which most will never do or want to do in real life. They are in a way, the Super Powers of this game franchise. It's a premise which dictates the core SC gameplay.



Now first in my opinion the debate is about the core gameplay not Sam Fisher. So this means that fans that would take any SC game just as long as Sam's in it really shouldn't be voicing there opinion. Because quite frankly, if this next game returned to CT core gameplay you wouldn't be sitting here complaining about it getting too damb old and how you want something new.

The real debate is between those of us that want the core to return but improved greatly and those that would like a change to what we are witnessing now.

Of course unless those people actually say that they would love a SC game without Sam Fisher, which to me, as long as it's the CT core gameplay, I could care less who the main character is. Hell they could put a Frag Doll in his place. As long as it has them hiding in real enough shadows I could care less.

All I see UBI doing is changing a games gameplay in order to receive more money. They could care less about staying true to the fans, you know those that have bought every game like it was a religion.

I also feel that alot of people here don't remember the past. As with most SC games you get a wonderful impression of what the game "might" be like. I good example of this is the dynamic weather system that was previewed for CT. I've actually seen video on a sprinkler system that makes Sam all wet and as anyone could tell that wasn't put into the final product. Actually alot of things weren't put into the final product.

I just don't see where anyone could think that they pushed the CT gameplay to it's fullest. This is but one example of UBI not delivering what it has said would happen. So I say where was this example in DA? i didn't see any dynamic weather system, did you? Sure I saw a snow mission, where you couldn't see the enemy but they could see you.
It was on a next-gen console for god sakes. But till this day 95% of the SC fan base will tell you that CT was a thousand times better than DA.

Sure what there showing us now might be cool and new, but how much of it will actually make it into the final product. How much of this promised hipe will be there when you buy the game.
I for one think it's alot to be desired.

And who can say that without the goggles this is still a SC game?

It's the trademark for the series. They still have not delivered what was said. They still have not impressed upon me that they can make a next-gen Sc game. In my eyes they are basically saying that they can't do it so there going the easy route and taking the core from Assassins Creed and adding SC to it.

Does anyone believe that it's going to be as polished as Assassins Creed will be?

And one last thing. To HanzWolfgen.

Quote : Sam's superpowers does not lie upon the SC-20k, the tri-goggles, or the suit. Sam's powers is within him.
End of quote

The SC-20K, tri-goggles, and suit isn't his superpowers, you are right. There his character. Sam Fisher without any of those is just Sam Fisher and not a Splinter Cell.

LMFAO

Leviathon306
05-29-2007, 08:38 PM
I agree with the original post. While the crowd AI kind of gameplay looks interesting, this is not the Splinter Cell I learned to play and love. I feel that sort of gameplay would be better left to Assasin's Creed and Splinter Cell should continue its own traditional and trademark line of gameplay.

That isn't to say it should stay completely the same. There are some cool new things in conviction that I feel could be added to the traditional gameplay to make it better. For one, the ability to use anything in the environment to Sam's advantage. Some other things Ubi can strive to add would be a completely open world (to a degree that is) for missions, better AI (recognition of shadows, realistic responses, patrols, etc), more realistic placement of events, objectives, objects, freeform movement for Sam (ability to adapt to environment, say crouching lower to hide behind shorter boxes, ability to rappel from anything that wire can be secured to, etc) and the list could go on. Theres just so much that Ubi can do to the old traditional light vs shadow gameplay that this new step seems somewhat unneccesary. I for one would want to see Ubi re-revolutionize stealth gameplay by adding more new features to their signature Splinter Cell gameplay mechanics rather than step out and try to completely recreate an already established series into something completely new.

HanzWolfgen
05-30-2007, 04:04 AM
I dont know what could be improved from Chaos Theory. How about another pack of missions in which a splinter cell is sent off by his government to assassinate terrorist bosses and weapon contractors? If people are feeling they are losing the ninja of the story... well, Splinter Cell is more than playing ninja. In fact, from what I've read, people are could care less for Sam Fisher as long as the main character looks like an action figure. Lets face it, it all comes down to it's looks. The "Trademark" per se. I think a great deal of you have unsuccessfully associated yourselves with the character. In my opinion it is rather shallow and shortsighted. I enjoyed the original SP, PT, CT and DA (DA in a limited degree), I have approached every conceivable details; the game dynamics, AI, the trademark, shadow-light enviroment, sound detection, circumstancial responses, etc. They are all to be considered. But the story-line?

I am not saying SC's "trademark" should be neglected, but I am glad that Ubi is placing more emphasis on the storyline, and I am more of a story person myself. Metal Gear Solid's main success was due to it's movie like storyline and dramatic dialogues which Splinter Cell havent achieved yet. Hideo has managed to encapsulate it in one single game and I wished it ended there.

But with Sam Fisher, there seems to be alot of unfinished business, and if he was commited to assassinate every single terrorist on Earth then there would never be an End... and without an end there will be never a Story.

maiden_masher
05-31-2007, 07:27 PM
well its been a long time since i joined the forums but i wanna share my two cents about the SC:C....

for all the whiners, before splinter cell games comes out, you wanted sam to have cool moves like throwing knives, and including karate moves...and now that you have the karate chopping moves, you guys still complain...

if i were you, wait for the game to come, play it, and of course, enjoy it. if you don't like it, don't flame the company that made the game. because it's hard to satisfy gamers, especially nowadays.

i am excited for the SC:C because i'm a gamer and a fan of the franchise.

keep up the good work Ubisoft.can't wait for A:C and SC:C.

Knot3D
05-31-2007, 07:42 PM
Nonsense, all the critics - not whiners - have mostly been vocal about NOT wanting combat moves.

I have always hailed SC1 for having merely an elbow punch.

But of course... the blind hype boys will have their Tekken Cell indeed.

marinius
06-01-2007, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Knot3D:
Nonsense, all the critics - not whiners - have mostly been vocal about NOT wanting combat moves.

I have always hailed SC1 for having merely an elbow punch.

But of course... the blind hype boys will have their Tekken Cell indeed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
Lol, good one Knot - Tekken Cell! I completely agree with you, I always thought it was a better game when Sam wasn't able to run around slicing people up with his knife and knocking them out big time. A true stealth game has to be very selective about the number of and efficiency of the combat moves it gives its hero.

Knot3D
06-01-2007, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by marinius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knot3D:
Nonsense, all the critics - not whiners - have mostly been vocal about NOT wanting combat moves.

I have always hailed SC1 for having merely an elbow punch.

But of course... the blind hype boys will have their Tekken Cell indeed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
Lol, good one Knot - Tekken Cell! I completely agree with you, I always thought it was a better game when Sam wasn't able to run around slicing people up with his knife and knocking them out big time. A true stealth game has to be very selective about the number of and efficiency of the combat moves it gives its hero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, i was expressing it a bit black & white (i.e. exaggerating)...but the point still stands : i truly think most fans who played SC1, 2 and 3 stealthy were never the ones putting their play emphasis on brutal combat moves nor execution of guards, nor have they been expressing they'd want more of such action moves in the Splinter Cell franchise.

That's why those people are consistent in their criticism in regards to SC Conviction ; to me SC is about athletic exploration & evasion, NOT combat.

marinius
06-01-2007, 02:24 AM
Again, you're absolutely right.

If I may digress for a bit: With the release of Tomb Raider Anniversary these days I'm reading a few reviews in the newspapers in my country (Norway). Every single one of them focuses on the wonders of being able to take your time, explore the surroundings, figuring out your next move, not running into enemies for long stretches of time, generally praising that type of game experience as opposed to the purely adrenaline-based feel of many of today's games.

Although Tomb Raider and SC are quite different games, some of the things stated above I believe hold true for Splinter Cell as well. SCC seems to be going in the direction of a more fast-paced action-oriented game suited to the masses of gamers today with short attention spans. That strategy leaves other types of gamers wanting.

Georg_Maximus
06-01-2007, 03:05 AM
Hear, hear, Mr. marinius! It seems that the marked strategists whose job is to predict what people want, are often individuals with the mental maturity of 14 year-olds, with no other gaming experience than having wielded their guns in first person perspective. They should leave that job to people with a *real and genuine* passion for games - people like the fine ladies and gentlemen on this forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Release_15
06-01-2007, 07:21 AM
Lol a new creative stealth approach is not synonymous with catering to diehard tacticians wanting to play the same form of gameplay over and over again. Nor is it synonymous with catering to 14-year olds. Besides, it was said during an interview that SC is still focused on adult players... We saw a lot of combat in previous SC trailers, to show off new moves and gadgets. Did anyone play it that way?

marinius
06-01-2007, 10:40 AM
I bet quite a few people played that way, spraying bullets and going crazy with the knife whenever possible. But that's not really the issue now though.

Even you, Release_15, will have to admit that SCC looks to be far more action-oriented than previous SC-games. Ubi is talking up this "active stealth"-concept in a big way, and whether you agree with their decision or not, it seems pretty sure that more action will be required to get through the missions than before. There's just something about the two opposite concepts of "active" and "passive"...

Release_15
06-01-2007, 11:47 AM
Even you, Release_15, will have to admit that SCC looks to be far more action-oriented than previous SC-games. Ubi is talking up this "active stealth"-concept in a big way, and whether you agree with their decision or not, it seems pretty sure that more action will be required to get through the missions than before. There's just something about the two opposite concepts of "active" and "passive"...
I can't deny that, but I still believe that Montreal won't forget about hardcore stealth fans, and give players a chance to pass through most levels 'undetected', to use the traditional description. In Conviction, that will probably rank as 'without blowing up a hotdog cart every mission'.

But you're right: the controls/possibilities seem to be tuned to feature more combat. But I'm not against it: I've always wanted Sam to show off a little CQC kickass. Though I wouldn't want to fight my way through a level. That's just lame imo.

BurningDeath.
06-01-2007, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Release_15:
But you're right: the controls/possibilities seem to be tuned to feature more combat. But I'm not against it: I've always wanted Sam to show off a little CQC kickass.
...that's exactly what seems just wrong for me. Sam has always been a covert operative, his mission was "not to be there at all". I can't believe he drops that just because he's a fugitive now. In fact - I would expect him to use all the skills he developed to become a shadow again, completing his missions unseen, since hes like "america's most wanted" in Conviction, rather than fighting agains policemen causing chaos and mayhem on the streets. Thats just me, though.

Release_15
06-01-2007, 02:50 PM
that's exactly what seems just wrong for me. Sam has always been a covert operative, his mission was "not to be there at all". I can't believe he drops that just because he's a fugitive now. In fact - I would expect him to use all the skills he developed to become a shadow again, completing his missions unseen, since hes like "america's most wanted" in Conviction, rather than fighting agains policemen causing chaos and mayhem on the streets. Thats just me, though.
I respect that, and I understand where you're coming from.
But Conviction's not so much about causing chaos imo. It's just one aspect/possibility of the game.
If it's all mindless combat, I might pass on the game altogether. But I think there's a reason they still call it a 'stealth game'. I want to look beyond the demonstration and the hotdog cart explosion...

Plus, it would be nice to finally see Sam demonstrating why he's considered dangerous, aside from grabbing a lone guard into the shadows. It'll feel great not to have to load a save once I'm discovered. Not because the action starts, but because it actually looks fun this time around.

Black-S
06-01-2007, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Knot3D:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marinius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Knot3D:
Nonsense, all the critics - not whiners - have mostly been vocal about NOT wanting combat moves.

I have always hailed SC1 for having merely an elbow punch.

But of course... the blind hype boys will have their Tekken Cell indeed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
Lol, good one Knot - Tekken Cell! I completely agree with you, I always thought it was a better game when Sam wasn't able to run around slicing people up with his knife and knocking them out big time. A true stealth game has to be very selective about the number of and efficiency of the combat moves it gives its hero. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, i was expressing it a bit black & white (i.e. exaggerating)...but the point still stands : i truly think most fans who played SC1, 2 and 3 stealthy were never the ones putting their play emphasis on brutal combat moves nor execution of guards, nor have they been expressing they'd want more of such action moves in the Splinter Cell franchise.

That's why those people are consistent in their criticism in regards to SC Conviction ; to me SC is about athletic exploration & evasion, NOT combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats not true one bit. SC1; SCPT, SCCT and SCDA entirely revolved around using shadows and darkness to remain hidden. As soon as you entered the light and were discovered it became "combat". The same goes exactly for Conviction. You use the crowd as a means of stealth by simply blending in with your environment ie (crowds of people) and evading the police etc. Both forms of remaining hidden are equally as effective for the purpose they are used for. Its true that you have to make a distraction at some points in the game to attract police/guard attention, but its the same as whistling a guard to your position so you can knock him out.
It doesn't mean because your in daylight that you have to go around beating the **** out of every police officer you see and then turning around and defining that as "combat". To me that is just being a jack *** and it is an irrelevant point that has no justification is discussing whatsoever.

As for Sam's new close quarter moves, he is highly trained in Krav Maga and it does not make sense not to have new self defense moves as he is now on the run from some dangerous people and the new environments may require some new tactics to be put into use in order to be successful. Darwinism.

Knot3D
06-01-2007, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Black-S:
Thats not true one bit. SC1; SCPT, SCCT and SCDA entirely revolved around using shadows and darkness to remain hidden. As soon as you entered the light and were discovered it became "combat".

WTF !? Did i ever say the former SC's wouldn't have action as soon as you'd be discovered ?

OK, for you to understand, i will repeat this : many people who critique Conviction, criticize it for putting emphasis on that combat action. They were never the ones expressing feelings of wanting more combat and more combat moves in SC. I certainly wasn't

Of course, they'd be after you in SC1, 2 and 3 if discovered. If i was discovered i usually started over again from last checkpoint, because to me discovered = fail stealth mission.

Release_15
06-01-2007, 07:03 PM
It doesn't mean because your in daylight that you have to go around beating the **** out of every police officer you see and then turning around and defining that as "combat". To me that is just being a jack *** and it is an irrelevant point that has no justification in discussing whatsoever.
He's got a point. Minus the ******* thing.


Well, i was expressing it a bit black & white (i.e. exaggerating)...but the point still stands : i truly think most fans who played SC1, 2 and 3 stealthy were never the ones putting their play emphasis on brutal combat moves nor execution of guards, nor have they been expressing they'd want more of such action moves in the Splinter Cell franchise.

That's why those people are consistent in their criticism in regards to SC Conviction ; to me SC is about athletic exploration & evasion, NOT combat.

I'm one of those people (I try to knock out two guards per level as a max), and I seriously want this next game. So I'm not excited about 'Combat Sam'. I'm excited about all the stealthy sh** I can pull off in this new game. And just because this game isn't athletic in nature or set in the dark, and has the possibility for more intricate combat doesn't mean it will play that way. Maybe it will offer a choice, in a way DA failed to deliver on. Variety. Depth. Stealth, but in a different way. Without combat being a necessity. It's not combat because you see some action footage. Check the previous games' trailers if, like me, you're one of 'most fans who've played SC1, 2 & 3'. And hopefully owns both DA versions. You wouldn't want to miss the current-gen DA, I assure you. It's very close to Chaos Theory in terms of greatness imo.

ivnuzi
06-01-2007, 09:11 PM
Why does everyone act like the combat system is the main friggin point of the game. For crying out loud. It's still about hiding. You hide among people instead of shadows. Thus the combat side of this argument should not have even come up. For all of you who have a problem with the active stealth just pretend that the people are the shadows, how about that.

zoozilla
06-02-2007, 01:07 AM
There will always be different opinions. That's a fact. Ubisoft cannot please everyone. That's a fact. It's like when a beloved movie franchise or your favorite band goes in a completely new direction. Sometimes the change is good; sometimes it's not. There's no way to tell until the product is out.

OHM......(goes back into trance)

Release_15
06-02-2007, 06:35 AM
There will always be different opinions. That's a fact. Ubisoft cannot please everyone. That's a fact. It's like when a beloved movie franchise or your favorite band goes in a completely new direction. Sometimes the change is good; sometimes it's not. There's no way to tell until the product is out.
For some reason, I found that post to be very soothing... Nice.

Brownsnakeeyes
06-02-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by zoozilla:
There will always be different opinions. That's a fact. Ubisoft cannot please everyone. That's a fact. It's like when a beloved movie franchise or your favorite band goes in a completely new direction. Sometimes the change is good; sometimes it's not. There's no way to tell until the product is out.




But most times it's bad and then it either dies or goes back to what it was. lol

osborne10
06-02-2007, 09:00 PM
posted by (BLACK S) Thats not true one bit. SC1; SCPT, SCCT and SCDA entirely revolved around using shadows and darkness to remain hidden. As soon as you entered the light and were discovered it became "combat". The same goes exactly for Conviction. You use the crowd as a means of stealth by simply blending in with your environment ie (crowds of people) and evading the police etc. Both forms of remaining hidden are equally as effective for the purpose they are used for. Its true that you have to make a distraction at some points in the game to attract police/guard attention, but its the same as whistling a guard to your position so you can knock him out.
It doesn't mean because your in daylight that you have to go around beating the **** out of every police officer you see and then turning around and defining that as "combat". To me that is just being a jack *** and it is an irrelevant point that has no justification is discussing whatsoever.

As for Sam's new close quarter moves, he is highly trained in Krav Maga and it does not make sense not to have new self defense moves as he is now on the run from some dangerous people and the new environments may require some new tactics to be put into use in order to be successful. Darwinism.[/QUOTE]


i agree,and couldn't say it any better

ROLNIK
06-02-2007, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by MadamTampini:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HanzWolfgen:
Sam's superpowers does not lie upon the SC-20k, the tri-goggles, or the suit. Sam's powers is within him.

Bingo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
actually, it's his knife http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

aniket_nayak
07-06-2007, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by ivnuzi:
Why does everyone act like the combat system is the main friggin point of the game. For crying out loud. It's still about hiding. You hide among people instead of shadows. Thus the combat side of this argument should not have even come up. For all of you who have a problem with the active stealth just pretend that the people are the shadows, how about that.

People are crying about this because in previous Splinter Cells, you could shoot out all the lights in a place and run around without a problem. But with this new crowd shadow system, you will have to move from crowd to crowd. There is no way to shoot out something and spawn a crowd in front of you.

SPROGGY
07-06-2007, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Knot3D:
if the guard didn't detect me i'd neck snap/choke him unconscious. If he DID see me, he'd rightfully shoot me down.

Im excited for SCC, but this is something I sort of agree with. In the previews for SCC the guards are shown to line up for Sam and "put up their dukes". In reality the cops, feds would pull their firearms and subdue Sam using backup whenever possible. Im all for the new H2H, but it needs to be used in realistic situations. Sam needs to lure guards away from their backup or catch them going to the restroom and then incapacitate them. If he is cornered by a group then he needs disarm the nearest cop and then take the others out while they simultaneously try to subdue him. Sam may take some damage, and in that situation he SHOULD take some damage. The cops shouldnt be ******ed pushovers, they should be a legitimate threat to be avoided whenever possible.

halo_99
07-06-2007, 11:40 AM
I completely lost interest in the series immediately after Chaos Theory. When I heard about Double Agent, I was just "alright, cool". It completely lost the Splinter Cell feel. Instead of making it "Splinter Cell", they should just change the main character's name and give it a completely different title.

Assassin_Elite
07-06-2007, 03:22 PM
I agree with many of the posters in this thread, and I have a few things to say to hopefully defend the original poster.

If the Hitman games became driving games where you driver 47 from place to place and shoot at your targets from your car, never once leaving your vehicle, would it still be a Hitman game?

If the Halo games became RPGS where you control Master Chief as he explores the galaxy, gaining levels and abilities while fighting the Covenant on different planets, would it still be a Halo game?

If the Grand Theft Auto games became strategy games where you move your gang across a city and capture neighborhoods and territories so you can recruit more gangsters and eventually take over the city, would it still be a GTA game?

These all might sound like fairly interesting games on their own, but they are not Hitman games, they are not Halo games or GTA games, they take the characters, and put them completely out of their element, thus in the process, destroying the esscense of the character and the series. The same thing is happening to our beloved Sam. He, and the Splinter Cell games of the past (excluding next gen DA) have been all about infiltrating highly guarded and dangerous areas filled with many guards while wielding many high-tech weapons and gadgets which allow you to complete your objective without being detected, but also allow you to defend yourself properly when push comes to shove. This is all being taken away from the Splinter Cell series. It is almost as if with their latest games (Lockdown, Vegas, Conviction and DA, GRAW) Ubi is making completely new games but realize that if they slap an existing series's name on it, they can make more money.

Our only hope I believe is that by the end of Conviction, Sam will have cleared his name and gone back to doing what he does best. Please Ubi, don't kill our franchise!

RedemptionX
07-06-2007, 08:17 PM
last time I checked convictions is still a STEALTH game. From what I can see - the probabilities of being able to get through a level without detection is probably almost garaunteed, keep in mind these are the creators of the original Splinter cell..

Is it the light and shadow form of stealth that has existed for the past games? No. but it's still a stealth game - your analogy of GTA into a strategy game is therefor not really applicable towards this situation.

Splinter cell is based around Sam fisher - not NSA covert operations..obviously he was an NSA operative but the story revolves around Sam, the reason for their changing aspects of gameplay is to get more indepth into the characters life so the audience could get more attached towards him.

I loved the past Splinter Cells as much as the next guy but im always glad to see a story actually make progress in the character development. As braiog said in another thread - I would pay for a standalone version of the SvM but Im still greatly looking foward towards this game.

BurningDeath.
07-07-2007, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by RedemptionX:
last time I checked convictions is still a STEALTH game. From what I can see - the probabilities of being able to get through a level without detection is probably almost garaunteed, keep in mind these are the creators of the original Splinter cell..

Is it the light and shadow form of stealth that has existed for the past games? No. but it's still a stealth game - your analogy of GTA into a strategy game is therefor not really applicable towards this situation.

Splinter cell is based around Sam fisher - not NSA covert operations..obviously he was an NSA operative but the story revolves around Sam, the reason for their changing aspects of gameplay is to get more indepth into the characters life so the audience could get more attached towards him.

I loved the past Splinter Cells as much as the next guy but im always glad to see a story actually make progress in the character development. As braiog said in another thread - I would pay for a standalone version of the SvM but Im still greatly looking foward towards this game.
Fail.
How can anyone think they made the game following the story?
It's pretty damn clear that they stole the crowd thing from AC and made up some story around it.

aniket_nayak
07-07-2007, 02:50 AM
There has hardly been any character development in the first 3 SCs. Double Agent was the first step to bring about some character development in Sam.

Ahem, they "stole" crowd thing from AC. You know what they are made by the same studios. How can they steal from themselves...RFOLMAO.

marinius
07-07-2007, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by aniket_nayak:
There has hardly been any character development in the first 3 SCs. Double Agent was the first step to bring about some character development in Sam.

Ahem, they "stole" crowd thing from AC. You know what they are made by the same studios. How can they steal from themselves...RFOLMAO.

Splitting hairs once again aniket, seems to be one of your favourite activities these days. "Stole" is the wrong word, but the point still stands - they employ a feature for SCC originally created for one of their other games. That's not just lazy, it's a strategy that's gonna end up costing Ubi money by losing fan loyalty in the long run.

BurningDeath.
07-07-2007, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by aniket_nayak:
There has hardly been any character development in the first 3 SCs. Double Agent was the first step to bring about some character development in Sam.

Ahem, they "stole" crowd thing from AC. You know what they are made by the same studios. How can they steal from themselves...RFOLMAO.
Sheesh...come off you high horse, will you?
Everyone was able to understand what I wanted to say, so what's the matter?

SPROGGY
07-07-2007, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by BurningDeath.:

Fail.
How can anyone think they made the game following the story?
It's pretty damn clear that they stole the crowd thing from AC and made up some story around it.

I dont buy that. Theyve said they planned on doing this story line since WELL before DA even existed. SCC and AC may share some gameplay similarities, but I highly doubt they just built the SCC story line around the AC gameplay just to be lazy. That argument is nothing more than pessimistic speculation. The same goes for saying that Ubi will pay for it by losing customer loyalty. If the game is good then it will do well, period.

BurningDeath.
07-07-2007, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by deepego3:
I dont buy that. Theyve said they planned on doing this story line since WELL before DA even existed. SCC and AC may share some gameplay similarities, but I highly doubt they just built the SCC story line around the AC gameplay just to be lazy. That argument is nothing more than pessimistic speculation.
Okay - let's go through it once again: After SCCT, AC was already in developement at that time, they asked themselves what to do with the SC series. The crowd system has cost them quite a lot I suppose, so they either converted it into the SC world and slapped the fugitive story on it or they took the time to make a detailed storyboard and such and somehow found out that the basic gameplay would magically be the same as in Assassin's Creed.
I think the first possibility sounds more realistic, but you may decide for yourself, I'm not trying to convince you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

aniket_nayak
07-07-2007, 09:31 AM
If you are such a light/dark fanboy, why dont you just pop in SCCT disk and play.

And I don't really know why anti-convictioneers think Ubi is gonna listen to them because there are more number of people for the change. These people are here just to make us all miserable.

CoastalGirl
07-07-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by aniket_nayak:
And I don't really know why anti-convictioneers think Ubi is gonna listen to them because there are more number of people for the change. These people are here just to make us all miserable.
Ubi. Doesn't. Listen. To. Anyone.

And neither do you. No wonder you two get along so well!

aniket_nayak
07-07-2007, 02:40 PM
I am not bound by an oath to listen to people I meet on an internet forum.

SPROGGY
07-07-2007, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by BurningDeath.:
I'm not trying to convince you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Dont you worry, theres no chance of that happening http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif........ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif