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savior2006
04-15-2010, 11:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDqaUPxqj7Q
I saw this while skimming Machinema. I don't know if any of you see it. It's basically 4 guys debating (if you can really call it that) about whether stealth games will be seen in the future.
Tell me what you think about it.

savior2006
04-15-2010, 11:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDqaUPxqj7Q
I saw this while skimming Machinema. I don't know if any of you see it. It's basically 4 guys debating (if you can really call it that) about whether stealth games will be seen in the future.
Tell me what you think about it.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-15-2010, 11:15 PM
Seen it before.

Basically the argument is that most casual gamers haven't got the brain capacity to enjoy stealth games.

Not because they're stupid, just that they don't receive enjoyment from taking their time, being patient, planning and intricately laying strategies and tactics.

This generation of gaming will definitely see a decline in stealth gaming, though hitman didn't do too bad and Thief 4 is on the way.

Thief 4 will be the big marker on the health of stealth.

TF141Rook
04-15-2010, 11:20 PM
It's not a matter of paitence sometimes though. For me it's a matter of not being a masochist and deriving pleasure from being beaten into submission by game over screens. It's frustrating as hell and becomes the exact opposite of fun.

Dr__Cube
04-15-2010, 11:21 PM
I am with Sark; upper right.

And I agree with Shadow. Thief 4 will be the marker along with the new Hitman game whenever it comes out.

Goldeneye_006
04-15-2010, 11:24 PM
Stealth is not dead as soon as Beland isnt in charge of the next Splinter Cell Game and franchise.

savior2006
04-15-2010, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TF141Rook:
It's not a matter of paitence sometimes though. For me it's a matter of not being a masochist and deriving pleasure from being beaten into submission by game over screens. It's frustrating as hell and becomes the exact opposite of fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only the first two games really had that problem though. I couldn't beat SC for the life of me when I was young. Only the very last section of LAX Airport on Pandora Tomorrow gave me any frustrations. Taking out any challenge doesn't guarantee you a fun game.

Pigeons
04-16-2010, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TF141Rook:
It's not a matter of paitence sometimes though. For me it's a matter of not being a masochist and deriving pleasure from being beaten into submission by game over screens. It's frustrating as hell and becomes the exact opposite of fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Conviction was tailor made for you then. You know what is the exact opposite of fun? Winning and hardly trying. Boring. I like to have some degree of difficulty and required strategy. Conviction has none. Clancy is rolling in his grave. (well, he will when he dies)

SgtKevali
04-16-2010, 02:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
Seen it before.

Basically the argument is that most casual gamers haven't got the brain capacity to enjoy stealth games.

Not because they're stupid, just that they don't receive enjoyment from taking their time, being patient, planning and intricately laying strategies and tactics.

This generation of gaming will definitely see a decline in stealth gaming, though hitman didn't do too bad and Thief 4 is on the way.

Thief 4 will be the big marker on the health of stealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there any info about Thief 4 at all?

srwlml23
04-16-2010, 02:46 AM
I dont know if i even want to buy this game now, the love of a good stealth game seams to have gone from what people are saying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

thunderkatt
04-16-2010, 03:32 AM
Sorry guys, but I love ghosting and stealth as much as the next lover, but the fact remains that we are a tiny minority of gamers, even amongst fans who enjoy stealth games.

It's not in the interests of the developer to make games that are purely tailored to those who want to ghost levels - although if you look at the rather underlooked Tenchu Z (which effectively allows ghosting) it wasn't so well received by fans of stealth and regular gamers.

In Conviction's case what has gone wrong here is the fact the developer's definition of stealth is slightly different to what the 'ghosters' want, and due to the story and some tailored level design means they have effectively made it impossible.

Take the Kobin's Mansion level as a good example. You can ghost all the way to a certain staircase and then you're forced to interact with the game world, losing the element of ghosting. After this section you are then forced to take out various guards before you can complete your objective.

Now it would have been very possible for the level design to have it so that the target was alone in a back room and you could effectively sneak past the last few guards and interrogate the target without ever being seen or interacted with the game world, but instead they leaned towards an action climax for that level.

This is really down to the development team and their brief, because as you know it has been said that you can stealth your way through the game, which is in fact true for the most part, but the kind of stealth they are referring to is simply killing without being spotted (the exact same as Infiltration and Hunter Modes).

It's probably way too much to ask for a new mode ( one of the forum poster here suggested) which uses the same maps and tech as Infiltration Mode, but requires you to go from zone to zone undetected without killing and interacting.

Now if Ubi were in tune with the wants of the fans, then this mode would have already been included. The fact that it is not simply reiterates my initial point, which is very few gamers actually want this mode. And I say few in the grand scheme of things even if it may appear there are vast numbers on forums wanting this.

Eric_Steinway
04-16-2010, 03:44 AM
Anyone here played Death to Spies? That's a good stealth game.

HowlinLemon
04-16-2010, 04:05 AM
Players who like to ghost are definitely in the minority but what previous SCs did so well was to allow different play styles. I would play through once taking each encounter as it came, next going for 100% stealth score, next as Rambo using all my gadgets and again attempting the holy grail, ghosting. Good level design meant you could do any of these.

Ghosting in Conviction is possible to an extent but I don't think the developer designed the levels with it in mind at all so you will always be swimming against the tide. There's a certan way to play the game, with mark & execute, and yes it stealthy in that you can take some people without being detected but there are more unavoidable action sequences where the enemies know you're there and there certainly aren't as many options as previous games.

I think the fact gaming is so popular know, so much more so than when CT came out that it's in developers best interests to appeal to a braod spectrum of player. I think there's a space for more focused games, but it takes a brave developer to pursue them.


I played both Death to Spies, good games with a lot of tension. More in the bracket of Hitman and suffers a lot of the same flaws as a result. If I remember though on the hardest level you can't change clothes and that made it one of the challenging games I've ever played, stealth or otherwise. What was good I guess is that on easier levels it was accessable to everyone but on the highest difficulty it woul appeal to the stealth purists!

MiniAssasin
04-16-2010, 04:40 AM
ghosting in tenchu z is really easy though lol you went on the roof and ran to the target building and went through the ne of many entrances with sparse guards.

for ghosting to be any good you need a more linear confined environment so its difficult to get past people unoticed.

DoxilonQ
04-16-2010, 04:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
Anyone here played Death to Spies? That's a good stealth game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good stealth game? Are you serious? It's very bad Hitman rip off, the worst game I have ever played in my whole life.

Eric_Steinway
04-16-2010, 05:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DoxilonQ:
the worst game I have ever played in my whole life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either you're exaggerating or you don't play many games...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's very bad Hitman rip off </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it's a very good "hitman ripoff." It captures the setting and mood extremely well, offers diverse mission objectives, requires patience and thought, and can be extremely challenging (a good thing).

AI reacts realistically enough to your actions for the type of game it is (although they suck once combat starts). Don't get me wrong, I'd take Hitman any day of the week over this, but they're still fun games.

What don't you like about it?

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-16-2010, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SgtKevali:
Is there any info about Thief 4 at all? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much. I managed to get a look into the Eidos Montreal studios and have a look at their stuff, but it's all still in pre production.

They're continuing along the lines of the old steam punk L&S from the looks of it, but whether Garrett is the main character or not, is yet to be revealed. They're certainly hearing the cries of the fans on the matter though!

I recently conducted an interview with Mario Aguera (lead producer on the project) for CLICK magagzine [Ireland] and I'll pop it into this thread when it gets put up online. It should have been up a few weeks ago, so it should be soon enough.

As for Rook's comments about being beaten into submission, I really think that this was the case in the first 2 Splinter Cell games and it was a very frustrating part of the game, indeed. This has been removed for Chaos Theory and DA (in some areas) and it's a much more enjoyable experience for it.

TF141Rook
04-16-2010, 08:22 AM
I haven't played either in a really long time so I don't remember that but it sounds like I have to give those two another shot.

In any event I understand that a game that isn't as challenging isn't much fun, but I honestly found SCC the right level of difficulty. In my opinion it was actually harder to run and gun than it was to ghost, it only takes like four or five shots and then game over.

I don't think that the stealth game is dead however, it's one or two games in a matter of a couple of months, give developers some time. For a group whose creed is patience you sure need to practice it. Shadowfox mentioned Thief 4 so there and there.

LaurenIsSoMosh
04-16-2010, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by savior2006:
It's basically 4 guys debating (if you can really call it that) about whether stealth games will be seen in the future. Tell me what you think about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You'll be seeing a stealth game from me in the future if I ever manage to make it out of my garage.

AGENTxxxxx47
04-16-2010, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TF141Rook:
It's not a matter of paitence sometimes though. For me it's a matter of not being a masochist and deriving pleasure from being beaten into submission by game over screens. It's frustrating as hell and becomes the exact opposite of fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it's a matter of patience

sumoaltus
04-16-2010, 10:07 AM
The terms "ghosting" and "Conviction" are almost oxymorons given the context of this title. This story requires you to interact with the wetware in the environment thirty percent of the time due to the storyline.

Sam's - along with Archer/Kestrel in prologue - trying to find information about what's going down, and that requires some interaction. Yes there could be more opportunities for ghosting, but again, towards the end of the game the mercs/3E SC's begin to catch on, and Sam becomes the hunted.

TalkingToaster
04-16-2010, 11:36 AM
I doubt that stealth games are completely dead. This generation of games is about choice, both moral and gameplay wise. Which is one main reason Conviction has so many options for taking down enemies, either stealthily or guns blazing.

Secondly, as realism in games has arisen, stealth has been reduced because stealth games have always had this uncanny valley of disbelief associated with them (mainly due to console/programming restrictions). Take Double Agent and Hitman Blood Money for instance. Double Agent (especially on 360) had enemies looking at you from 20-30 feet away in broad daylight unable to see you. And when they did see you, no matter what the difficulty, instead of acting like real soldiers and calling for backup and flanking both sides of your position with co-ordinated squads covering each other's angles, they rushed in blindly one by one.

Blood Money (while one of my favorite games of all time) is again poor for realism. You shoot a guy and leave blood and guns on the floor yet no one notices. No one cares that there's a gun laying in the middle of the hallway they just pick it up and leave. Not to mention no one in stealth games has any peripheral vision.

Really though, with game tech the way it is, there is a limit to what you can include, and with gamers the way they are, there's only so much realism you can sink into a stealth game before fun goes out the window.

A real stealth game would have you cleaning up blood, stashing bodies in inaccessible areas, covering up bullet holes, picking up shell casings, cleaning footprints and taking five minutes to move through a room to make sure you're neither seen (even once) and don't leave any trace.

That may sound fun to the small minority of us who enjoy impossible challenges, but that wouldn't make a profitable game in a generation of gamers who are full of "blow up and shoot everything" that was started back in the 90s with Duke Nukem. And to be fair, Duke Nukem and the Doom guy were first on the scene and most popular, not Snake.

Eric_Steinway
04-16-2010, 01:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TalkingToaster:
This generation of games is about choice, both moral and gameplay wise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If that hadn't removed many of the features that gave you such choices from Conviction, I might agree with you...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Secondly, as realism in games has arisen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, what little realism there was in games is disappearing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">there's only so much realism you can sink into a stealth game before fun goes out the window. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This I agree with actually. I'm a big ArmA/ArmA II player, and the nature of that games gives it the most realistic stealth I've seen. It's unbelievably boring. Crawling extremely slowly across wide-open areas with people looking for you may be exhilarating in real life, but doing it while sitting at a computer screen isn't.

insanity76
04-16-2010, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TalkingToaster:
Double Agent (especially on 360) had enemies looking at you from 20-30 feet away in broad daylight unable to see you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And conversely you had enemies 100 feet away in the middle of a freakin' blizzard able to see you despite being in snow camo.

sumoaltus
04-16-2010, 01:39 PM
Yeah, actually in DA after I got to the landing sight during the tanker mission I would be seen when the guards just touched down in the helicopter.

Strange I know. Same when I was on the tanker during the mission.

TalkingToaster
04-16-2010, 02:30 PM
What's especially revealing is that I heard a rumor that one of the reasons the last Hitman game was called "Blood Money" was that when you killed someone in a violent way and left blood you had to clean it up to not be noticed. My guess is if that's true it was removed because it would be incredibly frustrating to have to plan that far in advance for most players and remove all incentive to use guns if you didn't want to be caught.

As for realism disappearing in games, I think the opposite is coming true in different ways. For instance, bullet drop is becoming an ever more popular concept in newer games (Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising and Battlefield Bad Company 2 both have it) and there was rumors that bullet travel time for sniper rifles was in Modern Warfare 1 (though I believe it was just lag). Far Cry 2 had propagating fire, intelligent flanking by enemies and realistic sniping (such as being too far away for enemies to locate your position).

Rainbow Six Vegas is also helping introduce modern SWAT techniques like breach-and-clear to modern gamers.

Besides, with the rise of the Tom Clancy brand lately, more plausible stories are popping up in games (the next Ghost Recon and Conviction excluded of course) instead of the old, tired 90's themes of stories ripped straight from direct to DVD movies.

I'm also thrilled that most game houses are adopting the concept of a "hot reload" where replacing a new magazine doesn't mean the weapon must be cocked again. =D

aceofspades2009
04-16-2010, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TalkingToaster:
What's especially revealing is that I heard a rumor that one of the reasons the last Hitman game was called "Blood Money" was that when you killed someone in a violent way and left blood you had to clean it up to not be noticed. My guess is if that's true it was removed because it would be incredibly frustrating to have to plan that far in advance for most players and remove all incentive to use guns if you didn't want to be caught.

As for realism disappearing in games, I think the opposite is coming true in different ways. For instance, bullet drop is becoming an ever more popular concept in newer games (Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising and Battlefield Bad Company 2 both have it) and there was rumors that bullet travel time for sniper rifles was in Modern Warfare 1 (though I believe it was just lag). Far Cry 2 had propagating fire, intelligent flanking by enemies and realistic sniping (such as being too far away for enemies to locate your position).

Rainbow Six Vegas is also helping introduce modern SWAT techniques like breach-and-clear to modern gamers.

Besides, with the rise of the Tom Clancy brand lately, more plausible stories are popping up in games (the next Ghost Recon and Conviction excluded of course) instead of the old, tired 90's themes of stories ripped straight from direct to DVD movies.

I'm also thrilled that most game houses are adopting the concept of a "hot reload" where replacing a new magazine doesn't mean the weapon must be cocked again. =D </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the whole hitman blood money thing is all based off a "rumor" u heard so its completely invalid. and ya games are getting more realistic....just not splinter cell its the complete opposite.

Eric_Steinway
04-16-2010, 03:10 PM
The average games might be getting slightly more realistic, but "hardcore" ones that were known for being extremely realistic are dying out.

TalkingToaster
04-16-2010, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aceofspades2009:
the whole hitman blood money thing is all based off a "rumor" u heard so its completely invalid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you read my post, I said "My guess is **IF** that's true" If...IF. Learn2readplz.

Eric_Steinway
04-16-2010, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TalkingToaster:
What's especially revealing is that I heard a rumor that one of the reasons the last Hitman game was called "Blood Money" was that when you killed someone in a violent way and left blood you had to clean it up to not be noticed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was just a rumor, unfortunately. I think it would have been cool.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bullet drop </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, and ArmA II (all made by a different company than the arcade crap Dragoon Rising) have the most realistic ballistics system I've seen. Especially with ACE/ACE II. Bullet drop, travel time, adjustable sights,working mil-dot optics, wind, and all sorts of stuff I probably don't know about needs to be taken into consideration. Real life methods can be used to locate snipers. Glints off their scopes, dust kicked up around their muzzle when firing, judging the amount of time between when their bullet "whips" past your head and the crack of their rifle registers.

Red Orchestra also has a great system for the type of game it is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">realistic sniping </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Vegas is also helping introduce modern SWAT techniques like breach-and-clear </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I refuse to acknowledge Vegas as a Rainbow Six game. Anyway, many other games have done it better and more realistically.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm also thrilled that most game houses are adopting the concept of a "hot reload" where replacing a new magazine doesn't mean the weapon must be cocked again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nothing new in the games I usually play.

Like I said above (sorry for the double post), it's great that casual games are becoming a bit more realistic. But most of this stuff is old news. The problem is the people that designed these realistic games ahead of their time have stopped to make their games appeal to the masses.

TalkingToaster
04-16-2010, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
Like I said above (sorry for the double post), it's great that casual games are becoming a bit more realistic. But most of this stuff is old news. The problem is the people that designed these realistic games ahead of their time have stopped to make their games appeal to the masses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I meant. Casual shooters are becoming more realistic (slowly, but still they are adopting the ideas).

I still think we're a long way off of ultra-realism mainly because it's so boring for the masses. I would die of happiness if they made a sniper simulation as realistic as the real thing, but it wouldn't make a cent over cost. And with games as expensive as they are today to make, taking that huge of a chance is not worth it for companies anymore.

d0x360
04-16-2010, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thunderkatt:
Sorry guys, but I love ghosting and stealth as much as the next lover, but the fact remains that we are a tiny minority of gamers, even amongst fans who enjoy stealth games.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is such a load of crap its not even funny. Not only were Splinter Cell games some of the best and most fun on the original Xbox they were also some of the best selling.

This game is awesome, no doubt but its not stealth and its not Splinter Cell. This is a cash grab and nothing more. They knew all the old Splinter Cell fans (and there are millions of us) would buy this no matter what. They also knew if they turned it into a cross between Jason Bourne and Jack Bauer that more casual players would buy in as well.

Im all for change but they rewrote the fundamental gameplay and in doing so they took away what made this series stand out. They could have included 90% of the new ideas and still kept the pacing and gameplay style of Chaos Theory.

I really hope the next game finds a happy medium between Conviction and CT. I still play CT quite often because its without a doubt the best stealth game in the spy genre money can buy.

thunderkatt
04-17-2010, 01:40 AM
Sorry you feel that way, but I can assure you that there are not 'millions' of stealth fans who love to 'Ghost' levels in Splinter Cell games.

There are loads of fans who love the series playing it how they want a mixture of stealth and action and semi-stealth, but the hardcore players who ghost levels are very much the minority.


Since they added the load-outs and all the offensive devices to the series back in PT, it was obvious the development teams were catering to more than just ghost players.

The problem with a number of hardcore fans is that they assume their way of playing is the only way to play the game and dismiss the other options, hence why for some SCC's change of pace is such a shock to them.

Face it, your precious Chaos Theory has a SHOTGUN/Sniper attachment, mines, grenades etc - what for sneaking around looking cool? I don't think so.

Eric_Steinway
04-17-2010, 02:08 AM
The shock is that they removed our style of play entirely, not that they added new ones.

I thought the shotgun/sniper attachment in CT was a great idea. It opened up new options, new play styles. That's fine, I don't think they should aim the game entirely towards ghosters.

Now instead of catering to both groups, they are only focused on the more action oriented players.

That's why people are mad.

duckd0wn
04-17-2010, 12:30 PM
After playing Conviction I went to my used video game store and picked up Chaos Theory and Double Agent (original XBOX version, not 360) for $3.99 each and have been enjoying both of these much more than Conviction, even though I've already played & beaten them both multiple times years ago.

Double Agent for XBOX is light years ahead of Double Agent for 360. They are ALOT different.

Powerslave01
04-17-2010, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bullet drop </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, and ArmA II (all made by a different company than the arcade crap Dragoon Rising) have the most realistic ballistics system I've seen. Especially with ACE/ACE II. Bullet drop, travel time, adjustable sights,working mil-dot optics, wind, and all sorts of stuff I probably don't know about needs to be taken into consideration. Real life methods can be used to locate snipers. Glints off their scopes, dust kicked up around their muzzle when firing, judging the amount of time between when their bullet "whips" past your head and the crack of their rifle registers.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
While Conviction is not very realistic, that means very little to me. I look for a good experience.. not realism. OFDR had realism, and IT WAS FUN. Old SCs weren't realistic either... guards were blind... drinking some magic potion healed sam's health... and Conviction is no better in realism. Regardless, they were all fun and I plan to play Splinter Cell 6.

shanethebouncer
04-17-2010, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bullet drop </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, and ArmA II (all made by a different company than the arcade crap Dragoon Rising) have the most realistic ballistics system I've seen. Especially with ACE/ACE II. Bullet drop, travel time, adjustable sights,working mil-dot optics, wind, and all sorts of stuff I probably don't know about needs to be taken into consideration. Real life methods can be used to locate snipers. Glints off their scopes, dust kicked up around their muzzle when firing, judging the amount of time between when their bullet "whips" past your head and the crack of their rifle registers.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
While Conviction is not very realistic, that means very little to me. I look for a good experience.. not realism. OFDR had realism, and IT WAS FUN. Old SCs weren't realistic either... guards were blind... drinking some magic potion healed sam's health... and Conviction is no better in realism. Regardless, they were all fun and I plan to play Splinter Cell 6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you have no business playing a tom clancy title if you don't care about realism .

Powerslave01
04-17-2010, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shanethebouncer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bullet drop </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, and ArmA II (all made by a different company than the arcade crap Dragoon Rising) have the most realistic ballistics system I've seen. Especially with ACE/ACE II. Bullet drop, travel time, adjustable sights,working mil-dot optics, wind, and all sorts of stuff I probably don't know about needs to be taken into consideration. Real life methods can be used to locate snipers. Glints off their scopes, dust kicked up around their muzzle when firing, judging the amount of time between when their bullet "whips" past your head and the crack of their rifle registers.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
While Conviction is not very realistic, that means very little to me. I look for a good experience.. not realism. OFDR had realism, and IT WAS FUN. Old SCs weren't realistic either... guards were blind... drinking some magic potion healed sam's health... and Conviction is no better in realism. Regardless, they were all fun and I plan to play Splinter Cell 6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you have no buisness playing a tom clancy title if you don't care about realism . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're a dead on idiot. I didn't say I don't want it.. I just said it wasn't necesary to me. The old games had it, I guess, and they were fine. I just don't care that it isn't present because that has no effect on me.. I just want something fun.

shanethebouncer
04-17-2010, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shanethebouncer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bullet drop </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, and ArmA II (all made by a different company than the arcade crap Dragoon Rising) have the most realistic ballistics system I've seen. Especially with ACE/ACE II. Bullet drop, travel time, adjustable sights,working mil-dot optics, wind, and all sorts of stuff I probably don't know about needs to be taken into consideration. Real life methods can be used to locate snipers. Glints off their scopes, dust kicked up around their muzzle when firing, judging the amount of time between when their bullet "whips" past your head and the crack of their rifle registers.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
While Conviction is not very realistic, that means very little to me. I look for a good experience.. not realism. OFDR had realism, and IT WAS FUN. Old SCs weren't realistic either... guards were blind... drinking some magic potion healed sam's health... and Conviction is no better in realism. Regardless, they were all fun and I plan to play Splinter Cell 6. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you have no buisness playing a tom clancy title if you don't care about realism . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're a dead on idiot. I didn't say I don't want it.. I just said it wasn't necesary to me. The old games had it, I guess, and they were fine. I just don't care that it isn't present because that has no effect on me.. I just want something fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly you don't care about it then you should play this series haha

TheZerby
04-17-2010, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
Seen it before.

Basically the argument is that most casual gamers haven't got the brain capacity to enjoy stealth games.

Not because they're stupid, just that they don't receive enjoyment from taking their time, being patient, planning and intricately laying strategies and tactics.

This generation of gaming will definitely see a decline in stealth gaming, though hitman didn't do too bad and Thief 4 is on the way.

Thief 4 will be the big marker on the health of stealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find this funnily untrue since my dad is a casual gamer and in fact he loved the older ones since they were playable for him. This fast pace stuff is too much for him and un-enjoyable. Granted this proves another point, fast pace doesn't equal stealth and the older ones were better. At least I could play with my dad then, now I can.

Note: Btw why is that guy Rob even part of the conversation if he doesn't care. Get rid of him, he doesn't add to it he just ruins all credibility if they take his opinon into account. How ouwld action gamer treat my opinion if I was saying "Not one likes shooting guns people want to melee so I don't care if this shoot game has better melee." Yah no one would care.

Eric_Steinway
04-17-2010, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing wrong with OFDR is having Operation Flahspoint in the title. It was a fun, yet extremely shallow and unrealistic shooter (for the series it's part of).

Just like (imo) the only thing wrong with Conviction is having Splinter Cell in the title.

I never said the previous SC games were realistic btw, that has nothing to do with the point I was making.

altair2nd
04-17-2010, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing wrong with OFDR is having Operation Flahspoint in the title.

Just like (imo) the only thing wrong with Conviction is having Splinter Cell in the title.

I never said the previous SC games were realistic btw, that has nothing to do with the point I was making. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Why didn't they just name it:

Sam Fisher: Conviction

Then no one would have to complain about it not being like splinter cell.

kipphopopotomus
04-17-2010, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
Seen it before.

Basically the argument is that most casual gamers haven't got the brain capacity to enjoy stealth games.

Not because they're stupid, just that they don't receive enjoyment from taking their time, being patient, planning and intricately laying strategies and tactics.

This generation of gaming will definitely see a decline in stealth gaming, though hitman didn't do too bad and Thief 4 is on the way.

Thief 4 will be the big marker on the health of stealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What about the Penumbra series? They're coming out with Amnesia: The Dark Descent soon... Do you think that indie games count at all?

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-17-2010, 02:48 PM
Indie games definitely count, but from my understanding Penumbra is a survival horror game, isn't it?

kipphopopotomus
04-17-2010, 02:55 PM
It's survival/horror/adventure/stealth because the only way you can survive is by being stealthy and the enemies are freakishly scary in Black Plague(the first one just has rabid dogs which are scary, but really just annoying) and it's adventure because there are puzzles you have to solve to continue through the game. If you want to check it out you can get a free demo for the first two games on your computer from the website, and you can get the whole series for 20$, but the last game was really a letdown. Amnesia should be really good though.

shanethebouncer
04-17-2010, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by altair2nd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Powerslave01:
There was NOTHING wrong with OFDR.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing wrong with OFDR is having Operation Flahspoint in the title.

Just like (imo) the only thing wrong with Conviction is having Splinter Cell in the title.

I never said the previous SC games were realistic btw, that has nothing to do with the point I was making. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Why didn't they just name it:

Sam Fisher: Conviction

Then no one would have to complain about it not being like splinter cell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no just convitction

altair2nd
04-17-2010, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shanethebouncer:
no just convitction </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, Sam Fisher: Conviction isn't all that good....

shanethebouncer
04-17-2010, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by altair2nd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shanethebouncer:
no just convitction </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, Sam Fisher: Conviction isn't all that good.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well sam fisher is splinter cell though

Georg_Maximus
04-23-2010, 03:06 AM
Just because Ubi made some poor decisions and made THIS game into some stripped-down crossover between Gears of War and R6: Vegas, doesn't mean the entire genre is going down the drain. Over the past few years, we've seen a couple of games that incorporate stealth sequences that goes IMO above and beyond what we have seen even in SC. I think the marked would be quite generous if they created games that managed to keep the intesity from these sequences alone throughout an entire 15-20 hours of gameplay.

The following two clips could perhaps inspire game developers to think in new terms of how to develop a new generation of solid stealth games. They're extracted from Chronicles of Rid****: Assault on Dark Athena (blame the forum bots for the silly cencorship http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) for a first person perspective, and, perhaps more surprisingly, Viking: Battle for Asgard, for a third person perspective. These levels are especially designed for stealth, and are excellent examples of how to combine open spaces that gives the player an overview and lets him plan ahead, with lots of places to hide while he moves from one point to another. Extreme close combat fighting techniques enables the player to take on anybody who sees him before they can warn the others.

Rid****: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9b--ZtlU0

Viking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm3mTxJYAPQ (especially interesting is that the player at 2:10 makes a mistake and fails to kill the hornblower before an entire enemy squad is warmed about the player's presence. The player then flees to hide, with the enemies flocking around were they last saw him. So the "last known position" feature is not something unique to SC:C - SEGA however didn't brag about it as much as Ubi did with SC:C)

Maybe others have better examples, but the bottom line is that stealth gaming isn't a genre that is "dying": game developers occationally implement stealth elements within their titles, and some truly good ones as well, and the fact that SC is no longer a classic stealth game, doesn't mean that there isn't any titles down the line that may come to use stealth more extensively. We can only hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cyrus.H
04-23-2010, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by savior2006:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDqaUPxqj7Q
I saw this while skimming Machinema. I don't know if any of you see it. It's basically 4 guys debating (if you can really call it that) about whether stealth games will be seen in the future.
Tell me what you think about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Splinter Cell, as a stealth video game franchise, is lost forever.

Thief and Metal Gear are all we have left.

Jazz117Volkov
04-23-2010, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
Thief and Metal Gear are all we have left. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm playing through Metal Gear Solid at the moment and I'm loving it.

Especially with using Nvidia Control Panel to force Antialiasing and Anisotropic filtering to make it that much more pretty. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For gaming as a whole (not just stealth games) to improve, developers need to look at where they've been and improve upon that.
As appose to pumping out challengeless cinematic shells that last for a handful of hours.

savior2006
04-23-2010, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Georg_Maximus:
Just because Ubi made some poor decisions and made THIS game into some stripped-down crossover between Gears of War and R6: Vegas, doesn't mean the entire genre is going down the drain. Over the past few years, we've seen a couple of games that incorporate stealth sequences that goes IMO above and beyond what we have seen even in SC. I think the marked would be quite generous if they created games that managed to keep the intesity from these sequences alone throughout an entire 15-20 hours of gameplay.

The following two clips could perhaps inspire game developers to think in new terms of how to develop a new generation of solid stealth games. They're extracted from Chronicles of Rid****: Assault on Dark Athena (blame the forum bots for the silly cencorship http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) for a first person perspective, and, perhaps more surprisingly, Viking: Battle for Asgard, for a third person perspective. These levels are especially designed for stealth, and are excellent examples of how to combine open spaces that gives the player an overview and lets him plan ahead, with lots of places to hide while he moves from one point to another. Extreme close combat fighting techniques enables the player to take on anybody who sees him before they can warn the others.

Rid****: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9b--ZtlU0

Viking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm3mTxJYAPQ (especially interesting is that the player at 2:10 makes a mistake and fails to kill the hornblower before an entire enemy squad is warmed about the player's presence. The player then flees to hide, with the enemies flocking around were they last saw him. So the "last known position" feature is not something unique to SC:C - SEGA however didn't brag about it as much as Ubi did with SC:C)

Maybe others have better examples, but the bottom line is that stealth gaming isn't a genre that is "dying": game developers occationally implement stealth elements within their titles, and some truly good ones as well, and the fact that SC is no longer a classic stealth game, doesn't mean that there isn't any titles down the line that may come to use stealth more extensively. We can only hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought it was harder to stealth Dark Athena. Butcher Bay had fewer concentrations of enemies. When you enter the enemy flashlight, even a little bit, you are automatically spotted and everyone is on alert. If they refined it, it would be better.

Cyrus.H
04-23-2010, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jazz_117:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
Thief and Metal Gear are all we have left. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm playing through Metal Gear Solid at the moment and I'm loving it.

Especially with using Nvidia Control Panel to force Antialiasing and Anisotropic filtering to make it that much more pretty. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For gaming as a whole (not just stealth games) to improve, developers need to look at where they've been and improve upon that.
As appose to pumping out challengeless cinematic shells that last for a handful of hours. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quoted for truth, Jazz_117. I couldn't have said it any better myself. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

DeafAtheist
04-23-2010, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goldeneye_006:
Stealth is not dead as soon as Beland isnt in charge of the next Splinter Cell Game and franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude Beland brought light and shadow stealth BACK to Conviction... the original build was going to be more like Assassin's Creed or Hitman with social stealth... with the character hiding in crowds. Sam had no goggle or gadgets.

Beland did bring more action to the game with M&E but he also brought light and shadow stealth back to it too so give credit where it's due.

icenutzz
04-23-2010, 12:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goldeneye_006:
Stealth is not dead as soon as Beland isnt in charge of the next Splinter Cell Game and franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude Beland brought light and shadow stealth BACK to Conviction... the original build was going to be more like Assassin's Creed or Hitman with social stealth... with the character hiding in crowds. Sam had no goggle or gadgets.

Beland did bring more action to the game with M&E but he also brought light and shadow stealth back to it too so give credit where it's due. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea they brought BLACK AND WHITE light and shadow stealth how do you know that gadgets and goggles would not of come at some point in the game as in this game?

Eric_Steinway
04-23-2010, 02:23 PM
Ok, he brought an over-simplified light and shadow system to the new build.

I'll give him half a point for that. He's still losing. Badly.

DeafAtheist
04-23-2010, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by icenutzz:
Yea they brought BLACK AND WHITE light and shadow stealth how do you know that gadgets and goggles would not of come at some point in the game as in this game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The black and white filter is simply how one tells they aren't visible to NPCs in the game, it's not the light and shadow stealth. The original build at absolutely NO light and shadow. There was no cover of darkness. Sam simply blended in with crowds like Altair or Enzio in the Assassin's Creed series. When Beland took over the project he had the programmers completely reprogram it to include light and shadow.

Beland is also responsible for getting Michael Ironside to voice Sam again. He refused to do it on the original build.

And as for the goggles and gadgets Sam was a fugitive in the original build with no access to Third Echelon equipment. There were no plans for gadgets or goggles in the original build. Beland talked about it in a recent Gamepro interview.

DeafAtheist
04-23-2010, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric_Steinway:
Ok, he brought an over-simplified light and shadow system to the new build.

I'll give him half a point for that. He's still losing. Badly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over simplified how? The original build had NO light and shadow stealth whatsoever.

RaulO4
04-23-2010, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goldeneye_006:
Stealth is not dead as soon as Beland isnt in charge of the next Splinter Cell Game and franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude Beland brought light and shadow stealth BACK to Conviction... the original build was going to be more like Assassin's Creed or Hitman with social stealth... with the character hiding in crowds. Sam had no goggle or gadgets.

Beland did bring more action to the game with M&E but he also brought light and shadow stealth back to it too so give credit where it's due. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>yea but they where going to bring a whole new level of ideas

like the the radio
how you can use that
and many other objects
and gadgets
that they said that it was in the game but in later time
called the Black Market
you want to know what is the good about conviction?

the light and physics because of the old Devs
making the hard push

i rather have had the old build which you could have ghost
(the Devs said it,,it just that they had to show some ideas so they made that level like that.

savior2006
04-23-2010, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by altair2nd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shanethebouncer:
no just convitction </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, Sam Fisher: Conviction isn't all that good.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought you were looking forward to it?

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-23-2010, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Beland is also responsible for getting Michael Ironside to voice Sam again. He refused to do it on the original build. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not entirely true. You have no idea of the goings on behind the scene. After DA he said that he was done with the game.

And you have no idea what role Beland played in getting Ironside back on track, so I don't know how you can credit it directly to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Over simplified how? The original build had NO light and shadow stealth whatsoever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over simplified because it's poor quality binary L&S mechanics which are shallow and irritating.

I_Redemptionx_I
04-23-2010, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TF141Rook:
It's not a matter of paitence sometimes though. For me it's a matter of not being a masochist and deriving pleasure from being beaten into submission by game over screens. It's frustrating as hell and becomes the exact opposite of fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a thought, but if you were more patient, perhaps you wouldn't have seen as many game over screens. The exception, for me, however was the first splinter cell. That was a nightmare but then again I was younger(ergo, less patient) when I first played it. I went back to it recently and didn't have as much of an issue.

But anyway, unfortunately, I don't think stealth gaming is going to get any more popular as many people don't have the patience. The only way I could foresee a rise in popularity in the genre is that, as the average age of gamers rise, perhaps so does the patience level of gamers.

RaymondG69
04-23-2010, 05:33 PM
We live in an Age of Restlessness where people are nearly continuously wired up with Red Bull or some heavily caffeinated brew from Starbucks, while simultaneously checking their e-mail, looking down into their i-Phones, writing IMs, consulting Facebook every 20 seconds, ordering stuff off of e-Bay (and expecting it to be delivered at the speed of light), feeding virtual pets, and inviting friends to help beat "Mafia Wars."

And the list, sadly, goes on and on and on . . .

In the final analysis, attention spans are short. And getting shorter every second.

That so-called "debate" between gamers that the original poster provided was no debate at all. It was a series of timed soundbites. To make matters worse, the host (or MC, or whatever he was) was much more interested in being a clown and a exhibitionist than he was in attempting to mediate a serious debate about a topic (i.e., stealth gaming) that some of us actually DO take seriously.

But it also served as fine example of just how terribly, pathetically short our attention spans have become. Indeed, I do fear that SCC was the first harbinger of so-called "death of stealth."

The Age of Restlessness, my friends.

The Age of Restlessness.

RG

Tzuu
04-23-2010, 05:46 PM
I read hitman in here somewhere.

I loved hitman, alot. Probably more than Splinter Cell.

savior2006
04-24-2010, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tzuu:
I read hitman in here somewhere.

I loved hitman, alot. Probably more than Splinter Cell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Blasphemy!

Tobeh_Fisher
04-24-2010, 02:58 PM
For all of you saying MGS is a stealth game - I'm laughing at you.

MGS stopped being about stealth after MGS3. Now it's just action-adventure/Hollywood.

The fact that you hate Conviction but think MGS is Godly makes no sense whatsoever.

Sarapion
04-24-2010, 03:20 PM
MGS4 has more stealth than conviction if you actually played mgs4 as a stealth game.
it's possible to play through the game with zero alerts and zero kills all in a single playthrough.
Just because snake is in the middle of a war zone doesn't mean that you need to play it like a third person shooter. the game was open enough to offer both ways of playing.

Tobeh_Fisher
04-24-2010, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sarapion:
MGS4 has more stealth than conviction if you actually played mgs4 as a stealth game.
it's possible to play through the game with zero alerts and zero kills all in a single playthrough.
Just because snake is in the middle of a war zone doesn't mean that you need to play it like a third person shooter. the game was open enough to offer both ways of playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But it's still the "Conviction" of MGS. Almost every hardcore fan would say it's the worst one in the series - myself included.

Yeah, it's all opinion, but it depends on how you look at it and how long you've been with the series I guess.

Sarapion
04-24-2010, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tobeh_Fisher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sarapion:
MGS4 has more stealth than conviction if you actually played mgs4 as a stealth game.
it's possible to play through the game with zero alerts and zero kills all in a single playthrough.
Just because snake is in the middle of a war zone doesn't mean that you need to play it like a third person shooter. the game was open enough to offer both ways of playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But it's still the "Conviction" of MGS. Almost every hardcore fan would say it's the worst one in the series - myself included.

Yeah, it's all opinion, but it depends on how you look at it and how long you've been with the series I guess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MGS4 is the black sheep of the series. I never really understood this. but the game still retained the CORE gameplay mechanics that existed in all of the past games.

Tobeh_Fisher
04-24-2010, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sarapion:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tobeh_Fisher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sarapion:
MGS4 has more stealth than conviction if you actually played mgs4 as a stealth game.
it's possible to play through the game with zero alerts and zero kills all in a single playthrough.
Just because snake is in the middle of a war zone doesn't mean that you need to play it like a third person shooter. the game was open enough to offer both ways of playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> But it's still the "Conviction" of MGS. Almost every hardcore fan would say it's the worst one in the series - myself included.

Yeah, it's all opinion, but it depends on how you look at it and how long you've been with the series I guess. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MGS4 is the black sheep of the series. I never really understood this. but the game still retained the CORE gameplay mechanics that existed in all of the past games. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, that's true. I mean compared to Conviction, it totally didn't **** up as bad gameplay wise. It's just that a lot of people still found it different and so they hated on the game for it.

Cyrus.H
04-24-2010, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tobeh_Fisher:
For all of you saying MGS is a stealth game - I'm laughing at you.

MGS stopped being about stealth after MGS3. Now it's just action-adventure/Hollywood.

The fact that you hate Conviction but think MGS is Godly makes no sense whatsoever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Metal Gear was always about action-adventure and Hollywood.

Conviction fails because the core values of Splinter Cell are based around realism and it takes itself seriously with all the cheesy Hollywood crap.

Dr__Cube
04-24-2010, 11:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We live in an Age of Restlessness where people are nearly continuously wired up with Red Bull or some heavily caffeinated brew from Starbucks, while simultaneously checking their e-mail, looking down into their i-Phones, writing IMs, consulting Facebook every 20 seconds, ordering stuff off of e-Bay (and expecting it to be delivered at the speed of light), feeding virtual pets, and inviting friends to help beat "Mafia Wars."

And the list, sadly, goes on and on and on . . .

In the final analysis, attention spans are short. And getting shorter every second.

That so-called "debate" between gamers that the original poster provided was no debate at all. It was a series of timed soundbites. To make matters worse, the host (or MC, or whatever he was) was much more interested in being a clown and a exhibitionist than he was in attempting to mediate a serious debate about a topic (i.e., stealth gaming) that some of us actually DO take seriously.

But it also served as fine example of just how terribly, pathetically short our attention spans have become. Indeed, I do fear that SCC was the first harbinger of so-called "death of stealth."

The Age of Restlessness, my friends.

The Age of Restlessness.

RG </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Words of wisdom and the stark, bare, harsh truth.

Garlic314
04-24-2010, 11:28 PM
So ****ing what? quit crying. Splinter Cell isnt the only stealth game on the planet, nor is it the only franchise that might attempt it in the future.
annoying trolls are annoying

Joshua Morrison
04-24-2010, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Garlic314:
So ****ing what? quit crying. Splinter Cell isnt the only stealth game on the planet, nor is it the only franchise that might attempt it in the future.
annoying trolls are annoying </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lol yeah you are.... can we get a list of stealth games because on 360... I think DA might be the only one... is there a thief for 360? Hitman.. but that is pretty much an xbox game not a 360 game.

Pigeons
04-25-2010, 12:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Garlic314:
So ****ing what? quit crying. Splinter Cell isnt the only stealth game on the planet, nor is it the only franchise that might attempt it in the future.
annoying trolls are annoying </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like Joshua said, I would like you to list the numerous stealth games on the planet. I really would because I can't find many, if any, at the moment.

Trolls are people that barge in, make stupid statements without any evidence to back up these statements, then never show their faces again. Surely you can't be a troll because you said we are trolls, but then again dude...

... you do seem a lot like one.

DeafAtheist
04-25-2010, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:

That's not entirely true. You have no idea of the goings on behind the scene. After DA he said that he was done with the game.

And you have no idea what role Beland played in getting Ironside back on track, so I don't know how you can credit it directly to him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe not but I AM capable of reading interviews:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's also worth noting that Michael Ironside is returning as the voice of Sam Fisher. After originally passing on reprising the role because he felt that there was nothing more to say with the character, he returned upon hearing Beland's new direction. "I know that he has a reputation of being very difficult to work with, but I didn't see that at all," Beland says. "There was never any question for me. We needed him. He's Sam's voice. When I met him, the first thing he said to me was that 'to me, Sam is like a panther.' That's when I knew we were going to get along. We totally clicked, because he completely gets it." - May Gamepro (http://www.gamepro.com/article/features/214768/splinter-cell-conviction-page-2/) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems to me he deserves the credit for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Over simplified because it's poor quality binary L&S mechanics which are shallow and irritating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you mean by that. But seems like an opinion. I don't find anything shallow or irritating about it.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-25-2010, 12:08 AM
I wouldn't pay any attention to Garlic if I were you Pidgeons.

He tries to hard

Pigeons
04-25-2010, 12:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's also worth noting that Michael Ironside is returning as the voice of Sam Fisher. After originally passing on reprising the role because he felt that there was nothing more to say with the character, he returned upon hearing Beland's new direction. "I know that he has a reputation of being very difficult to work with, but I didn't see that at all," Beland says. "There was never any question for me. We needed him. He's Sam's voice. When I met him, the first thing he said to me was that 'to me, Sam is like a panther.' That's when I knew we were going to get along. We totally clicked, because he completely gets it." - May Gamepro </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO!!! If Ironside said Sam was already a panther, why would Beland go out of his way to make him one? As far as I can tell, Beland and Ironside disagreed on this topic. What an idiot.

Yabab_2
04-25-2010, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sarapion:
MGS4 has more stealth than conviction if you actually played mgs4 as a stealth game.
it's possible to play through the game with zero alerts and zero kills all in a single playthrough.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean the part where we have to blast our way out of South America on a small tank blasting each and every Gekko that get in our way?
Or the fight between Raiden and Vamp in Shadow Moses where Snake uses a Railgun with his bare hands to drive suicide robots away? Thought so.

If you play Conviction as a Stealth game, it will also be a stealth game. Now try playing Chaos Theory agressively and see how that turns out.

DeafAtheist
04-25-2010, 12:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeons:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's also worth noting that Michael Ironside is returning as the voice of Sam Fisher. After originally passing on reprising the role because he felt that there was nothing more to say with the character, he returned upon hearing Beland's new direction. "I know that he has a reputation of being very difficult to work with, but I didn't see that at all," Beland says. "There was never any question for me. We needed him. He's Sam's voice. When I met him, the first thing he said to me was that 'to me, Sam is like a panther.' That's when I knew we were going to get along. We totally clicked, because he completely gets it." - May Gamepro </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO!!! If Ironside said Sam was already a panther, why would Beland go out of his way to make him one? As far as I can tell, Beland and Ironside disagreed on this topic. What an idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what you get from that? If they disagreed then why would Michal Ironside have agreed to reprise the role with Beland's direction after having previously passed on it? It's not Beland that's the idiot here.

Beland said they "clicked". I don't see any disagreement here. Obviously Michal Ironside saw Sam the same way Beland does.

Yabab_2
04-25-2010, 12:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeons:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's also worth noting that Michael Ironside is returning as the voice of Sam Fisher. After originally passing on reprising the role because he felt that there was nothing more to say with the character, he returned upon hearing Beland's new direction. "I know that he has a reputation of being very difficult to work with, but I didn't see that at all," Beland says. "There was never any question for me. We needed him. He's Sam's voice. When I met him, the first thing he said to me was that 'to me, Sam is like a panther.' That's when I knew we were going to get along. We totally clicked, because he completely gets it." - May Gamepro </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO!!! If Ironside said Sam was already a panther, why would Beland go out of his way to make him one? As far as I can tell, Beland and Ironside disagreed on this topic. What an idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you on? Cause I want some. They clearly said they agreeded on it.

RaulO4
04-25-2010, 12:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeons:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's also worth noting that Michael Ironside is returning as the voice of Sam Fisher. After originally passing on reprising the role because he felt that there was nothing more to say with the character, he returned upon hearing Beland's new direction. "I know that he has a reputation of being very difficult to work with, but I didn't see that at all," Beland says. "There was never any question for me. We needed him. He's Sam's voice. When I met him, the first thing he said to me was that 'to me, Sam is like a panther.' That's when I knew we were going to get along. We totally clicked, because he completely gets it." - May Gamepro </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO!!! If Ironside said Sam was already a panther, why would Beland go out of his way to make him one? As far as I can tell, Beland and Ironside disagreed on this topic. What an idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what you get from that? If they disagreed then why would Michal Ironside have agreed to reprise the role with Beland's direction after having previously passed on it? It's not Beland that's the idiot here.

Beland said they "clicked". I don't see any disagreement here. Obviously Michal Ironside saw Sam the same way Beland does. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Sam is like a Panther
so i know we where going to get along

lol XD
that made my day

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-25-2010, 12:23 AM
I think that what he's trying to say that Sam was already a panther, so why do you need to try and make him like one if he already is one?

Yabab_2
04-25-2010, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I think that what he's trying to say that Sam was already a panther, so why do you need to try and make him like one if he already is one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except he wasn't a panther.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-25-2010, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yabab_2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I think that what he's trying to say that Sam was already a panther, so why do you need to try and make him like one if he already is one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except he wasn't a panther. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah...well Ironside seemed to think so and so did I and the majority of other fans on here I believe.

There was a poll/thread floating around from a while back, before Conviction or it's hype machine had even started to show face and roll. It was entitled "What animal do you think Sam Fisher is?"

Guess what animal everyone thought he was?

HINT: It was a panther.

This was something that people had concluded from watching Sam stalk and move powerfully, yet silently with the ease of a solitary predator who could choose who he killed and where. Not some revenge driven action pumped maniac shooting everything in his path.

Also, panthers stalk solitary targets and they never attack anything that is remotely overpowering to them.

Yabab_2
04-25-2010, 12:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yabab_2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I think that what he's trying to say that Sam was already a panther, so why do you need to try and make him like one if he already is one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except he wasn't a panther. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah...well Ironside seemed to think so and so did I and the majority of other fans on here I believe.

There was a poll/thread floating around from a while back, before Conviction or it's hype machine had even started to show face and roll. It was entitled "What animal do you think Sam Fisher is?"

Guess what animal everyone thought he was?

HINT: It was a panther.

This was something that people had concluded from watching Sam stalk and move powerfully, yet silently with the ease of a solitary predator who could choose who he killed and where. Not some revenge driven action pumped maniac shooting everything in his path.

Also, panthers stalk solitary targets and they never attack anything that is remotely overpowering to them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm also pretty sure he didn't move as fast as one, nor he had fangs, now he was black and furry and it also didn't had that cool panther sound before we do a Death From Above now.

And yes, I'm trolling you after what I read in the other thread.

DeafAtheist
04-27-2010, 02:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I think that what he's trying to say that Sam was already a panther, so why do you need to try and make him like one if he already is one? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Michal Ironside having voiced Sam from the beginning of the franchise naturally would have his own visions and view of who Sam Fisher should be. Actors, especially those who play the same character thru several different titles in a series often have views of their characters that are different from that of the producers and directors... but an actor isn't paid for their opinions... they're paid to portray the character the way the director wants them to.

So I think Michal Ironside was saying in his view Sam Fisher the character is like a panther, not necessarily the character as he has been playing it in previous title, but the character in his own vision of the character.

If Beland had misunderstood him they wouldn't have "clicked". There would have been an awkward moment where they'd have realized they weren't on the same page. And it wouldn't explain Ironside's decision to come back on board with the project.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-27-2010, 03:10 AM
I'm sorry Deaf, your posts are normally very clear but that last one was a waffle fest.

An actor doesn't envision a character a certain way and then NOT play them that way. An actor is paid to play the role they're hired to and are always given artistic license because they are characters. A director is there to give them direction, no more, no less.

If an actor's vision strays too far outside the role in a manner that is not fitting, then the director intervenes, but Ironside envisioning Sam as a panther clearly does not fall into this bracket. We already know that Ironside was given a huge amount of leeway to play Sam however he saw fit, starting from SC 1, so he was evidently already playing Sam as a panther, which was obvious to many fans before Beland & Co. brought the "panther/ultimate predator" buzzword to the table and made him move 50 km/hr, gave him M&E/Krav Maga/DFA, LKP and regen health.

savior2006
04-27-2010, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I'm sorry Deaf, your posts are normally very clear but that last one was a waffle fest.

An actor doesn't envision a character a certain way and then NOT play them that way. An actor is paid to play the role they're hired to and are always given artistic license because they are characters. A director is there to give them direction, no more, no less.

If an actor's vision strays too far outside the role in a manner that is not fitting, then the director intervenes, but Ironside envisioning Sam as a panther clearly does not fall into this bracket. We already know that Ironside was given a huge amount of leeway to play Sam however he saw fit, starting from SC 1, so he was evidently already playing Sam as a panther, which was obvious to many fans before Beland & Co. brought the "panther/ultimate predator" buzzword to the table and made him move 50 km/hr, gave him M&E/Krav Maga/DFA, LKP and regen health. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
OBJECTION!
Shadow, was it not Ubisoft Shanghai that first implemeted regenerated health? ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Sorry, I've been watching Phoenix Wright walkthroughs. The ordeals are very intense.

DeafAtheist
04-27-2010, 05:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I'm sorry Deaf, your posts are normally very clear but that last one was a waffle fest.

An actor doesn't envision a character a certain way and then NOT play them that way. An actor is paid to play the role they're hired to and are always given artistic license because they are characters. A director is there to give them direction, no more, no less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all sorry my point wasn't clear. Yes you're right, an actor IS given a bit of artistic license, but if the actor's vision of the character differs from that of the director, well the director has the final say because the director has the most clout on the set. And yes the director is there to give them DIRECTION. That is to direct the character to play the role the way they envision it to be played. If the director doesn't like what he or she is seeing... "CUT!" and retake. An actor doesn't get to play the role how they want to play it unless their vision of the role is the same as the director's. High paid A-List actors have a lot more script control. They generally have it added to their contracts simply because they can.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If an actor's vision strays too far outside the role in a manner that is not fitting, then the director intervenes, but Ironside envisioning Sam as a panther clearly does not fall into this bracket. We already know that Ironside was given a huge amount of leeway to play Sam however he saw fit, starting from SC 1, so he was evidently already playing Sam as a panther, which was obvious to many fans before Beland & Co. brought the "panther/ultimate predator" buzzword to the table and made him move 50 km/hr, gave him M&E/Krav Maga/DFA, LKP and regen health. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sam Fisher is a VOICE role. Michael Ironside had no creative control over how the character was portrayed in the game... he only had control over Sam's VOICE. He may have been allowed to ad lib his lines a lot but that's about it. Michael Ironside didn't get to decide how swiftly Sam moved in the game or how many bad guys he could shoot with a single button press, or what form of martial arts Sam used to take down enemies... etc. Basically my point is that Michael Ironside didn't have control over how Sam ACTED... only on how he SOUNDED and perhaps some control on what was said and therefore it is my belief that Michael Ironside didn't feel that he shared the same vision of the character as the creative directors of the earlier titles which is why he choose to step down as Sam's voice in Conviction's original build... upon hearing of Beland's new direction for the game it is my belief that Beland shared the same vision as Michael Ironside otherwise he'd not have changed his mind about voicing the role.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-27-2010, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I'm sorry Deaf, your posts are normally very clear but that last one was a waffle fest.

An actor doesn't envision a character a certain way and then NOT play them that way. An actor is paid to play the role they're hired to and are always given artistic license because they are characters. A director is there to give them direction, no more, no less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all sorry my point wasn't clear. Yes you're right, an actor IS given a bit of artistic license, but if the actor's vision of the character differs from that of the director, well the director has the final say because the director has the most clout on the set. And yes the director is there to give them DIRECTION. That is to direct the character to play the role the way they envision it to be played. If the director doesn't like what he or she is seeing... "CUT!" and retake. An actor doesn't get to play the role how they want to play it unless their vision of the role is the same as the director's. High paid A-List actors have a lot more script control. They generally have it added to their contracts simply because they can.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If an actor's vision strays too far outside the role in a manner that is not fitting, then the director intervenes, but Ironside envisioning Sam as a panther clearly does not fall into this bracket. We already know that Ironside was given a huge amount of leeway to play Sam however he saw fit, starting from SC 1, so he was evidently already playing Sam as a panther, which was obvious to many fans before Beland & Co. brought the "panther/ultimate predator" buzzword to the table and made him move 50 km/hr, gave him M&E/Krav Maga/DFA, LKP and regen health. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sam Fisher is a VOICE role. Michael Ironside had no creative control over how the character was portrayed in the game... he only had control over Sam's VOICE. He may have been allowed to ad lib his lines a lot but that's about it. Michael Ironside didn't get to decide how swiftly Sam moved in the game or how many bad guys he could shoot with a single button press, or what form of martial arts Sam used to take down enemies... etc. Basically my point is that Michael Ironside didn't have control over how Sam ACTED... only on how he SOUNDED and perhaps some control on what was said and therefore it is my belief that Michael Ironside didn't feel that he shared the same vision of the character as the creative directors of the earlier titles which is why he choose to step down as Sam's voice in Conviction's original build... upon hearing of Beland's new direction for the game it is my belief that Beland shared the same vision as Michael Ironside otherwise he'd not have changed his mind about voicing the role. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a pretty big assumption you're making there. And it wasn't that he stepped down after seeing the new build of Conviction, he stepped down AFTER Double Agent.

Also, he had plenty of control over Sam. when he originally got the character role he sat down with Ubi and re wrote some of the script after he signed on for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqDIDMqxH1o

Sure, he had no control over the pace and M&E and other features, but the point I'm making is that THESE features don't make Sam a panther. Sam was already panther like in the previous games, as many fans attested to on here BEFORE Beland's direction was revealed and now, as we know, from how Ironside envisioned him and played him. Just look at how Sam moves in the previous games, it's much sleeker and more panther like, especially how he stalks.

If you think that super speed + excessive multiple kills every where = panther, then I'm not really sure you know what a panther does and rather have just accepted all of the hype that Beland & Co. have been throwing at us about this "ultimate predator" junk.

DeafAtheist
04-27-2010, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:

That's a pretty big assumption you're making there. And it wasn't that he stepped down after seeing the new build of Conviction, he stepped down AFTER Double Agent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He may have stepped down after Double Agent, but I'm sure he was asked to return for the early build of Conviction but had declined. The creative direction behind the original build would have to have at least inquired to see if he was willing to come back to the role. Sean Connery stepped away from the Role of James Bond after You Only Live Twice, but was convinced to come back to reprise the role for Diamonds Are Forever. It happens. If a production team wants an actor to continue to play a role they don't want to keep playing they'll sweeten the role by offering more money or more script control... etc. Point is I'd be surprised if Ironside wasn't asked to come back simply because he decided after Double Agent he was done with the role.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also, he had plenty of control over Sam. when he originally got the character role he sat down with Ubi and re wrote some of the script after he signed on for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that playing Sam Fisher is a VOICE role and Michael Ironside wouldn't have control over anything more than what Sam said and how he said it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sure, he had no control over the pace and M&E and other features, but the point I'm making is that THESE features don't make Sam a panther. Sam was already panther like in the previous games, as many fans attested to on here BEFORE Beland's direction was revealed and now, as we know, from how Ironside envisioned him and played him. Just look at how Sam moves in the previous games, it's much sleeker and more panther like, especially how he stalks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's actually no such thing as a panther. Big cats called panthers are actually Jaguars, Cougars, or Leopards that have dark fur. So any opinion on how a panther acts is pure speculation and opinion. What the argument here isn't what you and I think a panther is but what Beland and Ironside think a panther is and it seems from the article I quoted back there that they were obviously in agreement about Beland's direction of the role. Otherwise it's unlikely he'd have come back to it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you think that super speed + excessive multiple kills every where = panther, then I'm not really sure you know what a panther does and rather have just accepted all of the hype that Beland & Co. have been throwing at us about this "ultimate predator" junk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't think a Panther kills indiscriminately, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be a predator. That is all this silent stalking you're referring to would have an ends... which would be killing it's prey. A predatory cat wouldn't stalk something just to avoid it and that's what Conviction portrays... Sam as a predator using the darkness to stalk and kill his prey. And just because Sam is very capable of killing every enemy in every mission in Conviction doesn't mean he has to. Take Kobin's Mansion for instance... The only people you really need to kill or knock out is the dude under the pipe you drop down from and the guards protecting Kobin in the final room. Every other guard in the building is optional.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
04-27-2010, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that playing Sam Fisher is a VOICE role and Michael Ironside wouldn't have control over anything more than what Sam said and how he said it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine, but he pictured Sam as a panther and played the role that way. It obviously translated through somehow because of all the fans who also pictured Sam as a panther prior to Beland coming out and saying it 50 times in each interview.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There's actually no such thing as a panther. Big cats called panthers are actually Jaguars, Cougars, or Leopards that have dark fur. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No such thing as a panther? Of course there is. Don't be silly. Panthers are any cats that belong to genus panthera, which is the family of big cats. So that's tigers/lions/jaguars/leopards etc.. A black panther (what you're thinking of) is any cat from the ones you've stated, that has a dark pigment in its fur. Either way, a panther (lions excluded) is a solitary predator that stalks and ambushes its individual prey and will back off once spotted, being primarily non aggressive once its cover has been blown and its enemies flee.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So any opinion on how a panther acts is pure speculation and opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it really isn't. And to think that it is because "there's no such thing as a panther" is being a bit silly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What the argument here isn't what you and I think a panther is but what Beland and Ironside think a panther is and it seems from the article I quoted back there that they were obviously in agreement about Beland's direction of the role. Otherwise it's unlikely he'd have come back to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine, I'm not arguing with this point that Beland and Ironside were in agreement. I'm arguing that Sam was considered panther-like by many, many fans BEFORE Beland opened his mouth about it and Ironside clearly considered Sam a panther before Beland mentioned it either.

There has to be a reason for this, surely...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wouldn't think a Panther kills indiscriminately, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be a predator. That is all this silent stalking you're referring to would have an ends... which would be killing it's prey. A predatory cat wouldn't stalk something just to avoid it and that's what Conviction portrays... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you think predatory cats like tigers, jaguars and leopards are so reclusive and notoriously hard to spot? Because they're sneaky, stealthy mofos who don't like to be spotted and know how to stay hidden when they want to.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sam as a predator using the darkness to stalk and kill his prey. And just because Sam is very capable of killing every enemy in every mission in Conviction doesn't mean he has to. Take Kobin's Mansion for instance... The only people you really need to kill or knock out is the dude under the pipe you drop down from and the guards protecting Kobin in the final room. Every other guard in the building is optional. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not arguing that you're made to kill in the game. I'm arguing that Beland's vision of Sam as a panther is a guy who runs around the place really quietly, scaling everything at a million miles an hour without making a sound and is capable of killing 4-5 different guys easy as pie, while also being capable of engaging in firefights with the enemy once he's been spotted.

Beland clearly has no idea what panther behaviour is like.

Pigeons
04-27-2010, 01:37 PM
Good lord I was just making a little joke.

It seemed Ironside already thought that Sam was a panther, and Beland did not think so because he went out of his way to transform into one (as if he wasn't one already). They may have disagreed Sam was Panther-esque in the old games, that's all I was saying, sheesh.

And the fact that it took Beland to hear Ironside acknowledge that Sam was like a Panther to be committed to getting Ironside as the voice of Sam, it shows he doesn't care about the old games at all. He thought that as long as Ironside shared his vision he'd be 100% determined to bring him back. What a selfish piece of ****.

Never mind that for nearly a decade he'd been known as Sam Fisher, he also needed to agree that Sam was like a Panther before Beland fell in love with him. Total disregard for the fans/franchise.

Btw, the "panther" noise that plays when you kill someone with a "death from above", that is the biggest gimmick I've ever seen. Get that **** out of Splinter Cell. Totally lame. I can't believe anyone likes it. It also used to take timing to pull off a death from above but not anymore, just 1 button press is all you need.

Terrible direction.

insanity76
04-27-2010, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
I'm not arguing that you're made to kill in the game. I'm arguing that Beland's vision of Sam as a panther is a guy who runs around the place really quietly, scaling everything at a million miles an hour without making a sound and is capable of killing 4-5 different guys easy as pie, while also being capable of engaging in firefights with the enemy once he's been spotted.

Beland clearly has no idea what panther behaviour is like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igMeL6DUeBY

(In Beland's eyes the Leopard should've M&E'd at 0:23)

Pigeons
04-27-2010, 01:46 PM
LMAO^

A "panther" doesn't take down multiple targets instantly. He's clueless. Old Sam was way more of a Panther.

DeafAtheist
04-27-2010, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There's actually no such thing as a panther. Big cats called panthers are actually Jaguars, Cougars, or Leopards that have dark fur. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No such thing as a panther? Of course there is. Don't be silly. Panthers are any cats that belong to genus panthera, which is the family of big cats. So that's tigers/lions/jaguars/leopards etc.. A black panther (what you're thinking of) is any cat from the ones you've stated, that has a dark pigment in its fur. Either way, a panther (lions excluded) is a solitary predator that stalks and ambushes its individual prey and will back off once spotted, being primarily non aggressive once its cover has been blown and its enemies flee. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me I wasn't clear. I meant that there was no such specific species called "panther" but rather that it was a family of various types of cats like you said here. No one points at a tiger and calls it a panther. No one points at a cougar and calls it a panther. The only time a cat it labeled a panther is when it's black and many people mistakenly think it's a different type of cat when it's not... it's just a cougar, jaguar, leopard, or something. That was the point I was trying to make. I'm aware that the family of cats is called Panthera.

But your description is exactly how Conviction plays out. Sam stalks his prey and if he's detected he runs to cover until things die down before he moves on. Like I said you don't have to kill every person in the game. How you play it is up to you. If I'm playing to reach the main goal of the mission I don't kill every enemy I encounter. I only kill those that stand in my way and attempt to avoid the rest. It's how I've always preferred to play the game although I do play thru killing or knocking everyone out too. More play options... different challenges... but my preferred method has always been to focus on a single goal... the mission requirements and only kill or knock out guards that threatened that goal. And when I do kill I always prefer close quarters. I'd rather sneak up on a guy and take him down than fire a round at him from a distance. To me THAT feels like being a panther... Not the killing 4 guys with one button press.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What the argument here isn't what you and I think a panther is but what Beland and Ironside think a panther is and it seems from the article I quoted back there that they were obviously in agreement about Beland's direction of the role. Otherwise it's unlikely he'd have come back to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine, I'm not arguing with this point that Beland and Ironside were in agreement. I'm arguing that Sam was considered panther-like by many, many fans BEFORE Beland opened his mouth about it and Ironside clearly considered Sam a panther before Beland mentioned it either.

There has to be a reason for this, surely...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wouldn't think a Panther kills indiscriminately, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be a predator. That is all this silent stalking you're referring to would have an ends... which would be killing it's prey. A predatory cat wouldn't stalk something just to avoid it and that's what Conviction portrays... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why do you think predatory cats like tigers, jaguars and leopards are so reclusive and notoriously hard to spot? Because they're sneaky, stealthy mofos who don't like to be spotted and know how to stay hidden when they want to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not denying that. I agree with you. And that's how I see Sam as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm not arguing that you're made to kill in the game. I'm arguing that Beland's vision of Sam as a panther is a guy who runs around the place really quietly, scaling everything at a million miles an hour without making a sound and is capable of killing 4-5 different guys easy as pie, while also being capable of engaging in firefights with the enemy once he's been spotted.

Beland clearly has no idea what panther behaviour is like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you on how a panther would behave. I can't really speculate on Beland's view of how a panther behaves. But I don't think he meant that they're always fast and always killing. I think he wanted to give Sam the ability to move fast when necessary... to be able to move quickly and silently if necessary, and to to give him more flexibility with being able to take down his prey. But at the same time he did want to make the game more accessible to casual gamers too. So much of Sam's abilities in Conviction could have more to do with Beland's vision of accessibility to casual gamers than to his vision of Sam as a panther.

DeafAtheist
04-27-2010, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeons:
And the fact that it took Beland to hear Ironside acknowledge that Sam was like a Panther to be committed to getting Ironside as the voice of Sam, it shows he doesn't care about the old games at all. He thought that as long as Ironside shared his vision he'd be 100% determined to bring him back. What a selfish piece of ****. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beland didn't need for Ironside to agree with him on his vision in order to get him back. Ironside had to agree with it in order for him to CHOOSE to come back. And Beland DID care about the earlier titles in the series. The original build for Conviction was being made to be like Assassin's Creed or Hitman... Sam had no goggles or gadgets, he picked boxes and broomsticks to throw at people and fight them with. There was no light and shadow stealth... he simply blended in with crowds. He was a fugitive running from the cops... There was no global conspiracy for him to thwart and save the world. Beland brought those elements back to the series.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Never mind that for nearly a decade he'd been known as Sam Fisher, he also needed to agree that Sam was like a Panther before Beland fell in love with him. Total disregard for the fans/franchise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you not read the quote? Beland said it was THE FIRST thing Ironside said to him when they met... You make it sound like Ironside needed to be prodded to agree. What part of trying to get Ironside to reprise the role is disregarding the fans and franchise? Seems to me he's thinking of them if he wants the actor who voiced him thru 4 other games to come back to the role.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Btw, the "panther" noise that plays when you kill someone with a "death from above", that is the biggest gimmick I've ever seen. Get that **** out of Splinter Cell. Totally lame. I can't believe anyone likes it. It also used to take timing to pull off a death from above but not anymore, just 1 button press is all you need.

Terrible direction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It still takes timing... The dude has to be under you or you will miss him... there have been plenty of times I attempted one only to have the guy walk out of my range before executing it. Granted the range is a bit more forgiving than it has been previously but you make it sound like Sam can leap across a room to perform it when it's really only a few feet at most.

Pigeons
04-27-2010, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Beland didn't need for Ironside to agree with him on his vision in order to get him back. Ironside had to agree with it in order for him to CHOOSE to come back. And Beland DID care about the earlier titles in the series. The original build for Conviction was being made to be like Assassin's Creed or Hitman... Sam had no goggles or gadgets, he picked boxes and broomsticks to throw at people and fight them with. There was no light and shadow stealth... he simply blended in with crowds. He was a fugitive running from the cops... There was no global conspiracy for him to thwart and save the world. Beland brought those elements back to the series.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beland's direction was just a lesser of two evils, but that does not mean that he cared about the series. And how do you know there was no global conspiracy? There was in Essentials, and the old conviction apparently shared a lot the PSP game (story wise).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Did you not read the quote? Beland said it was THE FIRST thing Ironside said to him when they met... You make it sound like Ironside needed to be prodded to agree. What part of trying to get Ironside to reprise the role is disregarding the fans and franchise? Seems to me he's thinking of them if he wants the actor who voiced him thru 4 other games to come back to the role.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, first of all I was just jokingly picking apart the quote because it seemed a bit contradictory. Second of all, if he couldn't get Ironside then no old fans would buy the game. But, I do get your point. At least the guy had the decency to get him back even though it might not have been so hard in the first place.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It still takes timing... The dude has to be under you or you will miss him... there have been plenty of times I attempted one only to have the guy walk out of my range before executing it. Granted the range is a bit more forgiving than it has been previously but you make it sound like Sam can leap across a room to perform it when it's really only a few feet at most.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only is the range bigger, but you don't even have to aim your drop. You only have to push a button and Sam will automatically jump directly on him as long as he is in the range. You used to have to make sure you directly above the guys (aim it) and time it correctly. Gone are those days. Now, everything is automated and any hint of challenge is whiped clean by single button presses (jumping on an enemy, mark and execute, you get the idea).