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m-bailey
11-21-2003, 11:02 AM
Ok, so the D'ni numbering system is base25. It makes me wonder though, how did they devise this numbering system? Where is 25 so prevalent in their society?

Our decimal (base10) numbering system was conceived from the digits on our hands and feet. Did the D'ni have an extra hand at birth? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

m-bailey
11-21-2003, 11:02 AM
Ok, so the D'ni numbering system is base25. It makes me wonder though, how did they devise this numbering system? Where is 25 so prevalent in their society?

Our decimal (base10) numbering system was conceived from the digits on our hands and feet. Did the D'ni have an extra hand at birth? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Alahmnat
11-21-2003, 02:53 PM
It's entirely possible to count to 25 on two hands, you just have to do it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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Alahmnat
Guild of Archivists, DPWR.NET (http://www.dpwr.net)
Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant

Jerle
11-21-2003, 03:55 PM
http://jerle.mystfans.com/eyebrow.gif Ooookay, NOW you're gonna have to tell us how. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Dillenger69
11-21-2003, 03:57 PM
I always thought it made more sense to count to 30 on two hands. I suppose only programmer types start counting with 0 though.
0 0 (0)
0 1,2,3,4,5 (1 2 3 4 5)
1 1,2,3,4,5 (6 7 8 9 10)
2 1,2,3,4,5 (11 12 13 14 15)
3 1,2,3,4,5 (16 17 18 19 20)
4 1,2,3,4,5 (21 22 23 24 25)
5 1,2,3,4,5 (26 27 28 29 30)

That's not how the d'ni do it though.

If I remember right it's
0 0 (0)
1 1,2,3,4,5 (1 2 3 4 5)
2 1,2,3,4,5 (6 7 8 9 10)
3 1,2,3,4,5 (11 12 13 14 15)
4 1,2,3,4,5 (16 17 18 19 20)
5 1,2,3,4,5 (21 22 23 24 25)

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aria505
11-21-2003, 04:36 PM
I always thought the number system was based around the number 5. Since when you turn a number counter clockwise you multiply it by 5.

And it was introduced to us on Riven (the 5th age) 5 was a very important number on the age. Even though it has nothing to do with D'ni.

Marck.
11-21-2003, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by m-bailey:
Our decimal (base10) numbering system was conceived from the digits on our hands and feet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's the same with the D'ni: just do not add the number of fingers but multiply them...

Marck

J_ohn
11-21-2003, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aria505:
And it was introduced to us on Riven (the 5th age) 5 was a very important number on the age. Even though it has nothing to do with D'ni.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was just Gehn's delusion at work. He thought that the number five held special signficance among the D'ni, and he played the part in Riven.

Perhaps the D'ni found that the mathematical measuresments the conducted were more suited for a penticosal system rather than any other. Their calendar, for example, is much more accurate than the gregorian calendar.

SBS http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Capt.Zobeee
11-21-2003, 05:05 PM
The numbering system, because of the repetition of "art" wasn't too hard but the clue was a "base 5" system. That's where his stress stemmed from. Had he used "squiggles" or something for the first (hypothetically) 30 numbers without the obvious rep, it would have been a nightmare to de-code without using advanced math.

meyoline
11-22-2003, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
It's entirely possible to count to 25 on two hands, you just have to do it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think I know how, and I think it involves lots of beer... ^_~

Alahmnat
11-22-2003, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meyoline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
It's entirely possible to count to 25 on two hands, you just have to do it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think I know how, and I think it involves lots of beer... ^_~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope. Just use one hand to count by 1's, and the other hand to keep track of groups of 5... so you would count 1-5 on your left hand, say, and then when you hit 5, you would put one finger up on your right hand, and start over counting from 6 through 10 on your left. Whan you get to 10, put another finger up on your right hand. Try it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Alahmnat
Guild of Archivists, DPWR.NET (http://www.dpwr.net)
Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant

meyoline
11-22-2003, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meyoline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
It's entirely possible to count to 25 on two hands, you just have to do it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think I know how, and I think it involves lots of beer... ^_~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope. Just use one hand to count by 1's, and the other hand to keep track of groups of 5... so you would count 1-5 on your left hand, say, and then when you hit 5, you would put one finger up on your right hand, and start over counting from 6 through 10 on your left. Whan you get to 10, put another finger up on your right hand. Try it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Alahmnat
Guild of Archivists, http://www.dpwr.net
Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, it shows how bored I am that I just sat here and tried it. A question: If you only count to 20 (to get the extra five on your other hand) you end up only getting 24, but if you count to 25 and get 5 on your other hand, does that make it 30 or explain why 5 was 'sepecial'? ^_~ Oh great my husband just walked in and right back out thinking I'm nuts. Thanks Al :-P lol

Capt.Zobeee
11-22-2003, 06:52 PM
Al; you make the most sense I've seen in a while, dude. As a matter of fact, that's exactly how I discovered the base 5 unit construction. Took a while 'cuz I wasn't ready for a programmer to think in that realm.....rog



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meyoline:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
It's entirely possible to count to 25 on two hands, you just have to do it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think I know how, and I think it involves lots of beer... ^_~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope. Just use one hand to count by 1's, and the other hand to keep track of groups of 5... so you would count 1-5 on your left hand, say, and then when you hit 5, you would put one finger up on your right hand, and start over counting from 6 through 10 on your left. Whan you get to 10, put another finger up on your right hand. Try it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Alahmnat
Guild of Archivists, http://www.dpwr.net
Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alahmnat
11-23-2003, 12:38 AM
Heh, wish I could take credit for it, Capt... just repeating the lessons taught by wiser and more inventive folk than I. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Alahmnat
Guild of Archivists, DPWR.NET (http://www.dpwr.net)
Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant

Wodar-Hospur
11-23-2003, 11:57 AM
Hey, don't mean to be annoying or anything, but I can easily count to 1023 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif with binary on my fingers just something to think about.

Boeuftete
11-25-2003, 11:04 AM
If you don't use your thumbs, you have 256 numbers... in fact, the same 256 numbers that are defined as alpha-numeric characters by ANSI standard. So you could theoretically communicate with others in binary using your hands...


... although I admit, I have no idea why you would...

This space intentionally left blank.

Tanernin
11-25-2003, 12:49 PM
aria505 said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I always thought the number system was based around the number 5. Since when you turn a number counter clockwise you multiply it by 5.

And it was introduced to us on Riven (the 5th age) 5 was a very important number on the age. Even though it has nothing to do with D'ni.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The system is really based around both numbers, but is technically a base 25 system because the numbers 1-24 only involve 1 digit. 26 is the first D'ni two digit number.

J_ohn
11-26-2003, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanernin:
The system is really based around both numbers, but is technically a base 25 system because the numbers 1-24 only involve 1 digit. 26 is the first D'ni two digit number.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm, I think that 25 is the first D'ni number that is composed of two digits: 1 and 0. The [X] symbol is a special / elaborate form to write 25; the mathematical representation of 25 is definitely 10 in an penticosal numbering system.

SBS http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JohnLynch6
11-26-2003, 05:13 AM
What numbering system did the Romans use and why?

Tanernin
11-26-2003, 09:22 AM
Duh, J'ohn.

That's what I meant. Thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I forgot that in our base 10 system, 10, not 11, is the first two digit number.

Oh, and JohnLynch; the Romans used a very ODD system. It was base weird. It really didn't have a base, not in the sense that the Arabic system does.

You might be able to count it as base 5.

Neo_Age
12-05-2003, 12:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aria505:
I always thought the number system was based around the number 5. Since when you turn a number counter clockwise you multiply it by 5.

And it was introduced to us on Riven (the 5th age) 5 was a very important number on the age. Even though it has nothing to do with D'ni.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


the system is based on five. if you look for any of the surviving fan sites, they will confirm this. its also confirmed in the stratigy guilde for the riven game. a while ago someone made a program called the jpdi. a very helpfull tool for understanding the d'ni laungage and numbers.

http://www.ipde.cjb.net/

Alahmnat
12-05-2003, 02:10 AM
based on a set of 5 symbols, yes. However, the number base is still 25 according to the math http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Alahmnat
Guild of Archivists, DPWR.NET (http://www.dpwr.net)
Uru Forum Moderator, Community Assistant

Tanernin
12-05-2003, 09:26 AM
Tis also based on 25, though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Which is 5*5.

"Why didn't I get the memo about the world going mad?"

My online journal of stuff (http://journal.bwminich.com) | Creative Stuff (http://congrim.net)

Jiyu-Furblade
12-25-2003, 05:40 PM
Watch out with ipde. It has some errors in it. I didn't checked all through yet, but one of the obvious one is this one:

-Base 25 Numbers. The number 0 is shown as D'ni number 10, number 10 is shown as D'ni number 20, number 20 is shown as D'ni number 21, number 21 is shown as D'ni number 22, 22 is shown as D'ni 23, 23 is shown as D'ni 24 and D'ni 24 is barely visible.

I'm sure there are more errors, but I don't saw them yet. Just incase. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

vaht gero ko okh terpahrah

Rabidfawn
12-29-2003, 02:43 AM
The numbering system is a little odd... it is technicaly a base 25 system, but it also has elements based on groups of five.

Numbers 0-5,10,15,20 all have thier own symbol
Numbers 5-9 all have the number 5 in them plus the symbols for 1-4 in the same box and they get added to make the number. (1 and 5 in the same box is the symbol for 6)
by the same token the symbol for 10 is added with the numbers 1-4 in the same box to make the numbers 11-14
it goes the same for 16-19 and 21-24

What makes it a base 25 system is that when you want to count numbers 25 and up you need more than one box (or place)

a litle general math involving number systems...

lets say we have a large decimal number. (138)
the 8 is in ones column, 3 is in the tens and 1 is in the hundreds. for the sake of later explainations we will call this the 0 column, 1 column and 2 column (from right to left)

the value of this number is actually figured out by taking the digits, multiplying them by the base of the number system to the power of the column number. (it will also help to remember back to high school math, any number to the power of 0 is equal to 1)

i.e. (1x10^2)+(3x10^1)+(8x10^0)=138
binary is a base 2 system so the number would look like this 10001010
i.e. (1x2^7)+(1x2^3)+(1x2^1)=138 (we can omit the places with no value as they add nothing to the number)
in this grain the d'ni number system doesn't introduce another digit until you need to count the number 25 (i know there is a special digit for 25, but that was, shall we say... an early dialect) this makes it a base 25 system.
so 138 would be written as
(5)(13) (btw is there a way to make the UBB code write another font?)
(5x25^1)+(13x25^0)=138

I believe the base 25 system was confirmed by RAWA ot one point... although I admit I don't have a link to prove it. However I think my assertions stand up on thier own.

EDIT: jeez, while i was writing this longwinded thing some others made the same point... i hope i added clarity.

x-Zandi-x
12-30-2003, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alahmnat:
It's entirely possible to count to 25 on two hands, you just have to do it right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's called sign language http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x-Zandi-x
12-30-2003, 12:15 PM
D'ni Number Fun.

Go here to see the D'ni Numbers:
http://www.dnidesk.com/numberchart.jpg

There is a Pattern in the D'ni Number system.
see if you can find out what the numbers all have in commen.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Give up? They are all combinations of each other.
the 10 and 2 are the same only rotated 90 degrees.
11 is a combination of 10 and 1.
7 is a combination of 2 and 5.
Get the sequence now?

ArmyKnife
12-31-2003, 10:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, because I dont usually spend my free time discussing alternate numbering systems in an imaginary language. But, wouldn't it be possible to write 25 as a combination of 5 and 13? In fact, wouldnt this be a system based on whatever number doesnt involve filling up the whole box?

ArmyKnife
12-31-2003, 11:20 AM
Now that I think about it, this numbering system is base 5, and only base 5. Look at the number 6. It's 5 + 1. 7 is 5 + 2. etc. So, really, decimal places are the amount of characters needed to create a number.

KrystinK
12-31-2003, 12:38 PM
Ok, there's something I've been wondering about for a while. In our numbering system, we use numbers both to count and to label things. What I mean by that is that say you have 42,523 marbles. That's "easy" enough to translate to the D'ni numbering system (I used a Base-N converter here (http://www.efunda.com/units/base_n.cfm?base_from=10)): 2(18)0(23).

But what about things like serial numbers? If you have a serial number like 2Y349XZ42523 (a VIN, for example), are each of the numeric digits displayed as standard single D'ni numbers 1-10, or do you convert the number series into D'ni numbers? What about serial numbers that are all numeric and contain no alphabetical characters, like 825280023513?

Has RAWA written anything on this kind of thing?

Rabidfawn
12-31-2003, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now that I think about it, this numbering system is base 5, and only base 5. Look at the number 6. It's 5 + 1. 7 is 5 + 2. etc. So, really, decimal places are the amount of characters needed to create a number. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for trying ArmyKnife... but i'm afraid it doesn't really work like that... as per my previous post about numberng systems.

the main problem with your approach is that you're adding numbers. (that does happen within a square in d'ni numbers... but that's not what a 'base' is as far as number systems go.) digits get multiplied by the base...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the value of this number is actually figured out by taking the digits, multiplying them by the base of the number system to the power of the column number <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

secondly... if it were base 5, and you did multiply the seperate numbers that appear in a square by the base to the power of the column number... wait... there's the problem... the d'ni character for 7 is the symbols for 5 and 2, but which one comes first?

(2x5^1)+(5x5^0)=15
or
(5x5^1)+(2x5^0)=27

as you can see, no matter wich comes first the value is still wrong.

the BASE is 25, bases are multiplied, not added. there is also the extra level to this system that has the numbers added within the squares to make digits up to 24. because those 'sub digits' go in groups of five i see why people have confused it.. (for a little while anywyas)

it really just come down to what a BASE is. maybe 5 could be a sub-sequence? or a repeater? i don't know... maybe they'll make a d'ni term for it.

It really is an interesting system.

ArmyKnife
12-31-2003, 05:00 PM
Thanks. You see, the most I've ever had on how to do bases was about 20 minutes of teaching last year. I'm in 9th grade (takin geometry, coulda been done w/ calculous by now but I decided not to super-accelerate). I take it most of you hear have gone through college? Or at least Alg. 2.

Rabidfawn
12-31-2003, 08:41 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
no problem...
no college here... but have done a lot with computers, you pick up binary and hexidecimal when you get into the technical stuff. after that any other system is pretty easy too.

Delzbin
12-31-2003, 09:38 PM
Taking a look over everyone's work here and it all looks very nice and all but here is something I don't see here, and that is how to tranulate a large number say 1435 into a D'ni number, without the aid of a program. So here we go I'll get right into it for you.

First sence I can't use the D'ni characters here on the forms I'm going to use leters instead of the D'ni characters.

Taking a look over everyone's work here and it all looks very nice and all but here is something I don't see here, and that is how to translate a large number say 1435 into a D'ni number, without the aid of a program. So here we go I'll get right into it for you.

First since I can't use the D'ni characters here on the forms I'm going to use letters instead of the D'ni characters.

A=1 B=2 C=3 ... Y=25 Z=0

So now we divide the number we wish to translate by 26 (The number of numbers we can make with one character... don't forget zero)

So 1435/26 = 55 with a remainder of 5 (or E)

You then divide the answer by 26 also.

55/26 = 2 with a remainder of 3 (or C)

You keep doing this until you reach zero.

2/26 = 0 with a remainder of 2 (or B)

You then shift down the numbers so that the very last division you did is the very first when going left to right.

So 1435=BCE

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
-+-----+- -+-----+- -+-----+-
|\ | | / | | |
| \ | | / | | |
| | | |&lt; | |-----|
| / | | \ | | |
|/ | | \ | | |
-+-----+- -+-----+- -+-----+-
</pre>

Delzbin
12-31-2003, 09:57 PM
Woops I made a big mistake here. Can anyone see what I did wrong? (I see what I did wrong but can you?)

Rabidfawn
12-31-2003, 10:18 PM
you divided by 26, when you should have divided by 25.

http://members.shaw.ca/rabidfawn/urusig.gif