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buccaneer
04-29-2004, 11:04 PM
From Guardian:

"Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation.
The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees.

According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon."

full (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html) article here

So apparently, hired interrogators also known as mercenaries or even better, Soldiers of Fortune are hired to interrogate prisoners. According to the article they have committed war crimes but can't be held accountable since the military has no jurisdiction over them.

Outrageous.

buccaneer
04-29-2004, 11:04 PM
From Guardian:

"Graphic photographs showing the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners in a US-run prison outside Baghdad emerged yesterday from a military inquiry which has left six soldiers facing a possible court martial and a general under investigation.
The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees.

According to lawyers for some of the soldiers, they claimed to be acting in part under the instruction of mercenary interrogators hired by the Pentagon."

full (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html) article here

So apparently, hired interrogators also known as mercenaries or even better, Soldiers of Fortune are hired to interrogate prisoners. According to the article they have committed war crimes but can't be held accountable since the military has no jurisdiction over them.

Outrageous.

Livoff
04-30-2004, 05:33 AM
Inteesting concept http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

That would be a serious breach of the geneva convention - not that it matters much, since there are noone to enforce that conventiion against the US (if it's true)

Another method is to "lend" suspects to countries like syria (don't remember the actual countriy but it was in that region). Let them slap the detainee around a bit, and get the detainee back with a nice interrogation report. The other country's part of the bargain would be that they can interrogate this person on things relevant to them (or cash).
This method was reported by CBS 60 Minutes.

Hornet57
04-30-2004, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Livoff:
Inteesting concept http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

That would be a serious breach of the geneva convention - not that it matters much, since there are noone to enforce that conventiion against the US (if it's true)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean noone can enforce the Geneva convention against the US?

Are you trying to imply that the US will disregard the rules of the geneva convention because there is noone out there to enforce it because of our Power?

There is no doubt that these idiots did what Saddam's Regiem was doing for 30 years.

But the guilty parties will be prosecuted. This mistreatment of prisoners did not come from higher ups in the military or the government.

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

Thoramir
04-30-2004, 07:28 AM
Who is responsible?

Anyone who participated.

Anyone who gave orders to do this stuff.

Anyone who knew about it without saying anything.

I don't really have too much of a problem with US troops playing 'mind-games' to 'break' prisoners to obtain information to save lives of US troops as long as no physical torture is used, but I've seen the many of the pictures and most of them cross way over the line. I think even the worst people deserve a modicum of human dignity. Using prisoners as sexual ragdolls. . . well I don't have the word to express how disgusting I find such practices. The part I am most shocked about is that most of the pictures I saw have female soldiers carrying out the torture and humiliation, my natural tendency would be to conclude that is was primarily men participating in this kind of barbarism (maybe someone has an explanation that makes sense). The US military justice system is both one of the harshest (by that I mean sentences are generally much heavier than civil courts, because our military personnel have to be held up to higher standards) and most fair criminal justice system I am aware of, generally speaking. I'm sure the people involved (at least directly) will be punished appropriately.

If and when they do get out of prison, these people probably will not be able to find jobs, because very few employers will hire someone who was discharged dishonorably from the military. It's something that strangely enough really means something in our culture, even though there are quite a few people who really dislike our military.

I find it hard to believe anyone involved would be stupid enough to take pictures or allow them, but human stupidity is amazing sometimes.

Edit: This following quotation stood out to me because I had a friend deployed in the middle east (to an undisclosed (classified) location, before the war in Iraq began) who said that it was difficult to work with many of the people from New York while he was over there. He said that they were much more likely to react badly to tense situations (because of 9-11 hitting so close to home I presume) that he was actually afraid that they'd do something stupid and get him killed.


"The inquiry had centred on the 800th Brigade which is based in Uniondale, New York."

http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Thoramir/Troutsig2.jpg
Yeeeeaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

[This message was edited by Thoramir on Fri April 30 2004 at 06:37 AM.]

Livoff
04-30-2004, 08:12 AM
Hornet, you're absolutely right, and I think that the responsible of the abuse in the prison will be prosecuted.

I was thinking of the second part of his post - the part with the contracted interrogators.

If the Pentagon or US gvt. find or create a loophole in the Geneva convention or define a situation as a case not covered in the geneva convention (like Guantanamo) there isnt some external power stronger than the US that can disagree and enforce these conventions. That was my point.

That convention is far from perfect and there are some parts of it that I would never expect to be followed. for example: If you shoot at an enemy plane and the pilot ejects, you're not allowed to fire at the pilot with the parachute before he stands ready on the ground. Who would follow those rules ?? Whe had classes about the Geneva convention when I was in the army and our instructor said

"Well, you can always shoot at his personal equipment, like his belt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif".

My point is that the Geneva convention is far from perfect so one could expect people and the US gvt. to "interpret" it to their advantage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I find it hard to believe anyone involved would be stupid enough to take pictures or allow them, but human stupidity is amazing sometimes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read that soldiers were looking happy on the pictures and posing in front of the prisonors, giving thumbs up to the photographer.

If that's true, it would not be extraordinary because people have been showing that kind of behaviour in all major conflicts that I know of. Even during the lynchings of africanamerican in US, you can see seemingly normal ppl posing infront of the lynched smiling and giving thumbs up.

It's very bizarre, but well documented in psychological studies that most people have this behaviour in them and it shows it's ugly face when put under sufficient stress.

There is a famous 3-week experiment from stanford, where they built a prison in the basement and had random test subjects pose as guards or prisoners (I think it was in the 70's). The guards were on purpose given way too much authority with no consequenses in case of abuse. This behaviour appeared very fast and ppl were very surprised about their own behaviour after the study. They actually had to stop the experiments before the three weeks, because the whole thing spun out of control.

The book behind "Full metal jacket" ("shorttimers") also describes this behaviour, even though it's not the main story of the book.

[This message was edited by Livoff on Fri April 30 2004 at 07:31 AM.]

buccaneer
04-30-2004, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hornet57:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But the guilty parties will be prosecuted. This mistreatment of prisoners did not come from higher ups in the military or the government.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, some participants will be prosecuted. The US military was quick to announce that military personnel who were involved will be punished. But the people who started this these atrocities won't. The are private contractors, hired by the US military to perform certain tasks Those interrogators are from two US based commercial companies. The military does not have jurisdiction over them.

On a different note: Why the hell are private companies involved with interrogation in the first place? They are in it for the money. So one might assume that thats where their loyalty is. What if they stumble into a detainee who actually has information about highly sensitive stuff? How "valuable" will this information be?

Demon_Mustang
04-30-2004, 01:27 PM
I agree buc, the military should be in full charge of this, hiring a private contractor doesn't make much sense to me. But then again there have been many things the U.S. military has done over the years that didn't make much sense. Either way, they are right though, they cannot punish the company for this, they really don't have jurisdiction. I'm sure they would like to, but it's not really up to them. And since they are in another country, it is up to that country's judicial system to punish them, but since they don't yet have one... well, you get where I'm going.

A part of me would say that the soldiers involved should not be punished as harshly since they were following orders, but the other part of me recognizes that they should have known that these people are private contractors, and they shouldn't be afraid to not follow orders if they see that what they are being ordered to do is not legal. Also, just as human beings they should know better than to do those things to other human beings. So it's good that they will be court martialed.

And Hornet, Livoff is right about the fact that no one really is there to enforce these laws against the USA, I don't think he implied that the USA will disregard the geneva convention because of this, he's just stating the fact that the laws are kind of useless if there isn't anyone to enforce them. And when we try to enforce them, we are accused of "bullying" the rest of the world.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Livoff
04-30-2004, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
A part of me would say that the soldiers involved should not be punished as harshly since they were following orders
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how it works in the US, but we were given a copy of "The laws of war" when I joined the army. If we broke any of those laws, we would be punished regardless of the orders. As a matter of fact, if a superior officer tried to purposedly break these laws, we were supposed to restrain him and hand him over to the MP's.

So in short, "following orders" could never be an excuse for us.

I know that there are special forces and other branches (the US marines ?) where they have to obey all orders and not judge for themselves, so to speak. In that case, it would be fair to say that they were just following orders.

(At least judically - not morally IMO)

Demon_Mustang
04-30-2004, 02:13 PM
Well, obviously if you're asked to commit obvious war crimes, you shouldn't follow orders unless you're afraid for your life. But there are times when a superior officer is giving orders to his subordinates that is not supported by his superior officers, he would receive the blame for it.

I remember a case vividly during the first Gulf War where a platoon leader of gunships ordered the destruction of two unidentified vehicles in enemy territory. Higher-ups told him to hold fire because they do not have confirmation yet of if the targets are friendly or enemy. He went ahead and gave the orders anyway, they fired upon the vehicles, and they were just about to finish off the survivors when he got word that friendlies just reported being fired upon, and these vehicles were indeed friendlies. Well, obviously this guy was discharged for not following orders, but his men were not punished because they were simply following orders to engage a target they believed to be legitimate.

I guess if what they are asked to do is illegal, it would be a completely different story, but that's why I said a "part" of me didn't want to see these folks get punished as harshly, but thinking logically they should be held accountable.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Hornet57
04-30-2004, 02:22 PM
If the Military has no jurisdiction over the contractors they should fire them. I can understand the reasoning of going around the Geneva convention rules by hiring private contractors since we are in a different type of war with different type of enemy that are hidden throughout the world waiting for us to blink. And they haven't read any book besides the Qaran. Getting outside contractors do the interogations, you know "tough love" type of interogations so they can find information that is much needed in the fight to end Terrorism and save our soldiers lives.

Having said that, I believe the contracts should be cancled in cases like this one. Ive seen the pictures and it is really discusting to see our troops treating prisoners in such a manner.
Not much different then Saddam's thugs mistreating their prisoners. I think the soldiers acted on their own. If the military has no jurisdiction over the Contractors, then how can the contractors give orders to the soldiers?

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

Demon_Mustang
04-30-2004, 03:06 PM
I think the description of the terrorist is not really accurate though. Most of them are probably illiterate and have never read the Quran, they are being manipulated by the people who could read it, and are lying to them that killing innocents is what they need to do. If they read the Quran, they wouldn't be doing the things they do, since it's forbidden. It's even written that it's forbidden to harm a leaf off a tree.

But anyway, I know that wasn't your point, just making a statement.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Hornet57
04-30-2004, 05:18 PM
The terrorists that can't read are the brainwashed crowd and only used as weapons, since they are very low maintenance (look at the accomodations they get a blanket in a cave.)

Their brain was fine tuned by the Terrorists that can read and write and manipulate. Those are the terrorists that we must get rid of at any cost.

The Geneva Convention should not even be thought of when it comes to these type of prisoners.

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

Livoff
04-30-2004, 05:39 PM
...and then again.

Many troops are in more danger now in Iraq because some jerks broke the geneva convention at this prison. There are no newspapers in Iraq on fridays, but heavy reactions are expected tomorrow http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Demon_Mustang
04-30-2004, 05:45 PM
Yah, it was stupid no matter what.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Livoff
04-30-2004, 05:47 PM
... and the new pictures of Brittish troops urinating on Iraqi prisoners doesn't make the situation better

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3675215.stm)

buccaneer
04-30-2004, 10:32 PM
I agree with Demon here. I don't think that the military personnel involved should get away with this. But I think it is highly unfair and appalling that these soldiers will be the fall guys for the private contractors who have nothing to fear except the fact that they will be out of a job soon.

I'd say court martial the people who hired those imbeciles. After all, if I would hire a hit man, I'm just as guilty as the man who commit the crime for me. Even if I only instructed that person to intimidate the subject, or rough him up a little.

The most scary bit is the obvious lack of ethics with some of those contractors. One can only imagine what would happen if they do manage to retrieve some valuable intel.

Highest bidder, anyone?

Demon_Mustang
04-30-2004, 10:44 PM
Well, as long as the original instruction was to simply interrogate them within the laws of the geneva convention, I don't think the people who did the hiring should get "court martialed." (They might not be military, so arrested, whatever). Given, it was a bad decision that didn't make a lot of logical sense, but that's not a crime, but then again, some would argue that it should be, lol. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Micaelis
05-01-2004, 06:37 AM
I think the question must be:
Do you think the 6 American soldiers now to be prosecuted for abuse is only the tip of the iceberg?
Because I think the American soldiers and leaders in general display similar attitude towards the Iraqis in the streets.

Continuing with blowing up minivans full of Iraqi women and children should be considered a crime.
"Precisionbombing" of residential areas should be considered a crime- well, it actually is but the US doesent care for that rule either.
It seems that getting the job done with minimal US military casualties is more important than the collateral damage done in the process.
What does it take to clasify things as a crime?


"Who is responsible for US war crimes in Iraq?"
Exellent question but irrelevant. No country on earth got the military muscle to back up their demand that US soldiers and leaders should face trial for certain actions outside the rules of war/ engagement.
Its been tried before, the diplomatic way that is but the US will not allow other nations or international tribunals to prosecute their soldiers eventhough US troops act in a very international way when dirty deeds are being commited.
Even worse, US reject to press charges against US individuals eventhough there is overwhelming evidence of crimes commited by US personel.
The latest example of this, lets call it denial of human rights, is the nomination of John Negroponte as US ambassador to the UN.
What would you say if one of Saddam`s worst generals was to be nominated as Iraqi ambassador to the UN?


I think the six soldiers in question should be prosecuted in Iraq by Iraqis under Iraqi law. That should teach them.

Demon_Mustang
05-01-2004, 09:11 AM
Ah yes, all Americans are evil, we secretly wanted to take out Saddam so we can torture the citizens ourselves. Man, I thought we could get away with it, but a genius like Micaelis had to come along and figure it all out. Man, why are you so smart? We would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky super geniuses!

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Guidon666
05-01-2004, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Micaelis:
I think the six soldiers in question should be prosecuted in Iraq by Iraqis under Iraqi law. That should teach them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


But that would require the Iraqi's to 1) have laws that they follow , 2) Have laws they enforce, and 3)stop bickering with themselves long enough to come to a consenus put together a court, do the trial then adminster the punishment.

And we know that wont happen any time soon.

http://www.angelfire.com/vamp/guidon666/images/666sig2.jpg
"The Spirit of the Cav is reason enough to fight!"

Hornet57
05-01-2004, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Micaelis:

Continuing with blowing up minivans full of Iraqi women and children should be considered a crime.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Making idiotic statements should also be a crime.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

"Precisionbombing" of residential areas should be considered a crime- well, it actually is but the US doesent care for that rule either.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're wrong Micaelis, Hidding military weapons in a civilian area is a crime. We attack what is there to attack us before it attacks us.
If Saddam cared for his people (aside The fact that he killed and tortured many of them) he would have evacuated areas that his military will be accupying since they would be our targets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
It seems that getting the job done with minimal US military casualties is more important than the collateral damage done in the process.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you are absolutely correct. Of course a low US casualty count is more important. I think that is the idea of war. Kill the enemy and stay alive.

It is very clear on the amount of money we spend to minimize US casualties and the inocent civilians. Many times they bombed a building with minimal damage on the other buildings around them. That's percision, unless the target had civilians as their guests.

How many Al Jazzera reporters did you see following the Iraqi soldiers like Fox News and Cnn did with the Allied forces?

Does not make any sense to hang around a target unless you are forced to be there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What does it take to clasify things as a crime?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cummon sense http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I think the six soldiers in question should be prosecuted in Iraq by Iraqis under Iraqi law. That should teach them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so, because they were under US command and they should be tried and punished according to U.S military law.



http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

[This message was edited by Hornet57 on Sat May 01 2004 at 09:32 PM.]

[This message was edited by Hornet57 on Sat May 01 2004 at 09:37 PM.]

[This message was edited by Hornet57 on Sat May 01 2004 at 09:45 PM.]

Demon_Mustang
05-01-2004, 11:13 PM
What I find hilarious, is how Buc can actually post a thread that isn't exactly positive for the USA, have just about everyone, from both political leanings, come together and agree on the same basic concepts, have cooperation for once, just to have the likes of Micaelis coming in here and turning it into yet another "bash USA" thread. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Very mature my friend, good show! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Hornet57
05-02-2004, 06:14 AM
Guys like Micaelis and Edjof17 come in here and basicly do the same as the clerics in the U.K and other places do(except the calling for the killing of Americans) They only focus on anything negative the US does and their hatred for the U.S is clear. Maybe they were sitting on some of those speeches because they sure don't sound like people you can have a debate with.

Then you get a guy like Hornet57, that gets a "little" exciteable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif when reading BS talk that you would expect from Baghdad Bob.
I have no problem debating with reality in a civilized manor but when you come up with **** then you expect me to turn on the fan.

And if you use the word "Liberal" you can expect professor Gandalf to step in and give us a very short lecture laced with low level insults on how wrong we are.

In the famous words of Rodney King.
"Can't we all get alone" after receiving
$4 million for a beating he diserved
although not as severe. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

Hornet57
05-02-2004, 06:14 AM
Guys like Micaelis and Edjof17 come in here and basicly do the same as the clerics in the U.K and other places do(except the killing of Americans) They only focus on anything negative the US does and their hatred for the U.S is clear. Maybe they were sitting on some of those speeches because they sure don't sound like people you can have a debate with.

Then you get a guy like Hornet57, that gets a "little" exciteable http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif when reading BS talk that you would expect from Baghdad Bob.
I have no problem debating with reality in a civilized manor but when you come up with **** then you expect me to turn on the fan.

And if you use the word "Liberal" you can expect professor Gandalf to step in and give us a very short lecture laced with low level insults on how wrong we are.

In the famous words of Rodney King.
"Can't we all get alone" after receiving
$4 million for a beating he diserved
although not as severe. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

Thoramir
05-02-2004, 07:38 AM
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/82859/1/.html

Apparently, the photos of British soldiers abusing Iraqis may be fraudulent (the 'soldiers' appear to be using long outdated equipment).

http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Thoramir/Troutsig2.jpg
Yeeeeaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

casauboneco
05-02-2004, 02:10 PM
i would like to point out that many of the prisoners ARE NOT IRAQI they are iranian, syrian and saudi while that doesnt condone the abuses i just wanted to point this out.

second: its wonderful to see the outrage from the same ppl who looked the other way in iraq, rowanda, haiti, china etc before. I guess torture and abuse is ok as long as the right ppl are doing it.

Peace through strength, Respect Though Fear, And Kill Anyone Using "L33t $p34k"

Demon_Mustang
05-02-2004, 08:19 PM
Thor, you can't cast doubt over something negative for the USA!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

LOL, seriously though, didn't the US Government admit that this was going on? Or was the Guardian misleading us? I've seen spin before, but I don't think a big news media company like the Guardian can just simply lie like that and get away with it. If US Government officials have commented on punishing the soldiers involved, then that would suggest that the allegations are correct. But I have to admit, I don't know as much as I would like about this incident, mainly just from the articles that have been posted so far, so it'll be greatly appreciated if it was somehow cleared up over which news media is telling the truth...

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Thoramir
05-03-2004, 07:17 AM
I was referring to British Soldier who have been accused of the same thing recently (and previously mentioned in this thread), not ours.

http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Thoramir/Troutsig2.jpg
Yeeeeaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

MCG_3dMarDv
05-03-2004, 10:20 AM
Keep it simple and don't fall into the conspiracy theory realm!!

When you say US MILITARY do you realize how vast this is????? There are INDIVIDUALS who did or authorized this. This is not the US MILITARY as a whole nor would it have ever been authorized by the Commander of the Joint Forces. Believe it or not their WILL ALWAYS BE 10% of the military that are bags of ****. The remainder are dedicated, law abiding HEROES. Compare that to the percentage of civilians in the world with all the moral decline. The US miliatary has a much better system.

How do you deal with it. Easy. YOU BUST THE GUYS WHO DID no matter who. CIA, US ARMY REGULAR OR RESERVE, whatever or whoever was involved in this war crime.

Its called INVESTIGATION BY a high ranking DOD investigative service. Then the appropriate punishments are dished out just like any other military trials and punishments.

We have enough touchy feely **** in the military already. This is not indicative of the entire organization but a select group of criminals. Deal with it as such.

Will the rest of society try to slant that??

Hell yes because they are liberal POS who have nothing better to do than try and say the entire military is behind this....ooo black helicopters and government secrets oooooooooooo


You will always have people that are good and people that are bad. All we can do is deal with these criminals that did this.

As far as the contractors go, I agree this was a huge mistake and a civilian should NEVER be in charge of ITT teams. Whoever made this call should be ACCOUNTABLE and punished accordingly, doesn't matter who he is General, Congressman, CIA, whoever. The civilians should be dealt with in cooperation with the military in a FEDERAL court setting.

]

[This message was edited by MCG_3dMarDv on Mon May 03 2004 at 09:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by MCG_3dMarDv on Mon May 03 2004 at 09:41 AM.]

[This message was edited by MCG_3dMarDv on Mon May 03 2004 at 10:02 AM.]

Demon_Mustang
05-03-2004, 01:13 PM
Oh, ok Thor, guess I wasn't reading your post too carefully, oops

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

MDS_Geist
05-08-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buccaneer:
I agree with Demon here. I don't think that the military personnel involved should get away with this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, and they will not. Rest assured that they are not. The investigation was completed five months ago and actions have already been taken. Multiple sodliers are facing courts-martial and and others have been disciplined in a number of ways. Members of the military simply cannot behave in such a fashion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buccaneer:
But I think it is highly unfair and appalling that these soldiers will be the fall guys for the private contractors who have nothing to fear except the fact that they will be out of a job soon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you here as well, and you can once again rest assured that is not going to be the case. Materials have already been turned over to the relevant authorities to prosecute civilians. It takes more time due to the levels of bureaucracy, but there will be civilians prosecutions as well. The private contractors actually have a great deal more to fear since the criminal code is murkier than the UCMJ.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buccaneer:
I'd say court martial the people who hired those imbeciles. After all, if I would hire a hit man, I'm just as guilty as the man who commit the crime for me. Even if I only instructed that person to intimidate the subject, or rough him up a little.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's an interesting proposition, but you can't put a civilian procurement specialist or contract negotiator up for a court martial. More to the point, it would be very difficult to prove anything even approaching culpability on the part of the people who arranged for the contracts unless you could also prove that the contractors in question (such as CACI and Titan) have a history of similar behavior. AFAIK, they do not.

The situation isn't really analogous to hiring a hit man. Civilian interrogators are hired because there is sadly a shortage of trained miltiary interrogators with both the language skills and cultural knowledge to perform the job adequately. The same way you would go to a cadio-thoracic surgeon for heart surgery rather than a proctologist.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buccaneer:
The most scary bit is the obvious lack of ethics with some of those contractors. One can only imagine what would happen if they do manage to retrieve some valuable intel.

Highest bidder, anyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I appreciate and understand the sentiment, it really doesn't work that way. These companies build their credentials on reliability and you wouldn't believe the NDA's involved even if you saw them. This is why the contracting agencies are working very proactively to deal with internal problems before their employees or the agencies themselves are officially charged or have their contracts terminated.

The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.

Demon_Mustang
05-08-2004, 09:45 PM
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by buccaneer:
I'd say court martial the people who hired those imbeciles. After all, if I would hire a hit man, I'm just as guilty as the man who commit the crime for me. Even if I only instructed that person to intimidate the subject, or rough him up a little.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's an interesting proposition, but you can't put a civilian procurement specialist or contract negotiator up for a court martial."

Geist, I think he was talking about the people who hired the contractors, meaning the authorities in the military or the Pentagon that hired them.

But I don't think the person doing the hiring would have prior knowledge that this would happen or that they were intending to do what they did, so I don't really believe this is a good idea.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

MDS_Geist
05-08-2004, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demon_Mustang:
Geist, I think he was talking about the people who hired the contractors, meaning the authorities in the military or the Pentagon that hired them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I recognize that. But those contracts are generally done by civilian analysts and specialists. Granted, it is for the military and done with military approval - but often not by actual military personnel.

The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.

Demon_Mustang
05-08-2004, 10:10 PM
Oh ok, wasn't sure whom you were referring to, sorry.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Cowanchicken
05-09-2004, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hornet57:
Making idiotic statements should also be a crime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you hate freedom, Hornet?

Demon_Mustang
05-09-2004, 06:11 PM
*Nominates cow for coming in and making the most pointless remarks ever.* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Cowanchicken
05-09-2004, 08:23 PM
Well why doesn't hornet stop waffling on these freedom issues then?

Demon_Mustang
05-09-2004, 11:41 PM
Oh come on, we all have said that sometime in the past, it's a joke, I doubt Hornet actually believes that we should jail everyone that makes an idiotic comment, especially since we all have made them at some point, especially... oh, nevermind... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyway, you do kind of just jump in randomly and make some really random useless statements. Not that it's completely a bad thing, kind of breaks up the tension a little... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Hornet57
05-10-2004, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowanchicken:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hornet57:
Making idiotic statements should also be a crime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you hate freedom, Hornet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cow, how do you get that I hate freedom from what I said?
Did you happen to read the context under which I said my statement? In case you didnt here is the explanation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Micaelis:

Continuing with blowing up minivans full of Iraqi women and children should be considered a crime.
Originally posted by Micaelis:

Continuing with blowing up minivans full of Iraqi women and children should be considered a crime.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We never blew up minivans full of Iraqi women and children unless there was somekind of threat. If you remember correctly the minivan in question never stopped at the checkpoint when ordered to stop, and since the previous days a taxi blew up at the checkpoint killing a couple of our soldiers, they acted in self defense.
That was a stupid statement so I said to Micaelis that stupid statements should be consicered a crime...it was a joke of course.

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

You're getting old when you get the same
sensation from a rocking chair that you once got
from a roller coaster.

Eur0.
05-10-2004, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MDS_Geist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demon_Mustang:
Geist, I think he was talking about the people who hired the contractors, meaning the authorities in the military or the Pentagon that hired them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I recognize that. But those contracts are generally done by civilian analysts and specialists. Granted, it is for the military and done with military approval - but often not by actual military personnel.

__The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.__<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what is the military there for, if not to supervise the actions that represent them and utilize their personnel for effect. "Turn a blind eye" to the actions, and it turns back and bites you in the neck.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/A11Eur0/Signatures/Eur0rx8sig.jpg http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/A11Eur0/Signatures/3980.gif

Demon_Mustang
05-10-2004, 02:04 PM
It's not "turning a blind eye."

It's simply the fact that our system is so complex, with such a complex chain of command, and all the bureaucracy that comes with EVERYTHING we do, any one person, or single group of people cannot possibly handle everything. So the jobs get spread out amongst a lot of people all working at the same time, and this will have the result that no one person will ever know everything that is going on. Most of the time, one specific group will know what's going on within their responsibilities, and everyone else will only be aware of if those responsibilities are being taken care of by other people.

If you don't seem to understand this, and think that Bush or Rumsfeld has some magical power of knowing exactly what everyone is doing at every given moment, then, um, yah, you live in a dream world man.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

MDS_Geist
05-10-2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eur0.:
So what is the military there for, if not to supervise the actions that represent them and utilize their personnel for effect. "Turn a blind eye" to the actions, and it turns back and bites you in the neck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In what context are you asking this question? We were discussing the procurement process. The civilian contractors in no way represent the military except to the very ignorant and uninformed. They are outside the chain of command and are not subject to military rules and regulations (obviously including the UCMJ).

Just as with anything else, you hire people to do work you are either not trained in or that they can do better. Again the analogy of doctors works quite well. If you have a brain tumor, you are worked on by a neurosurgeon and not a nephrologist.

The military is in Iraq to pacify the country and allow it to be rebuilt so that it can be safe, stable and properous.

The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.