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kryptonyte1
03-31-2004, 09:57 PM
So why was FarCry banned in Germany? I read the official post here: http://www.farcry.ubi.com/

===============================================

Wednesday 03.31.2004 Far Cry banned in Germany




In accordance with German law, www.farcry.de (http://www.farcry.de) and its forums have been pulled down following Far Cry's ban (US/UK version) in Germany. They will remain shut until the German version of Far Cry is released, which has the official youth rating by the German USK.
We apologize to our German community for any inconvenience this may cause and hope things will resume their normal course shortly.

kryptonyte1
03-31-2004, 09:57 PM
So why was FarCry banned in Germany? I read the official post here: http://www.farcry.ubi.com/

===============================================

Wednesday 03.31.2004 Far Cry banned in Germany




In accordance with German law, www.farcry.de (http://www.farcry.de) and its forums have been pulled down following Far Cry's ban (US/UK version) in Germany. They will remain shut until the German version of Far Cry is released, which has the official youth rating by the German USK.
We apologize to our German community for any inconvenience this may cause and hope things will resume their normal course shortly.

NaturalBornGoth
03-31-2004, 10:25 PM
We have this stupid youth protection law that is very restrictive about violence in interactive entertainment. The german version of Far Cry got a USK18 rating (no one under the age of 18 is allowed to buy the game). In order to get this rating Crytek had to remove the ragdoll effects of dead bodies, so that you can't play around with them anymore. They also had to remove the blood effects of bodies that are floating on the water.

As it turns out these removed features could be reactivated by some file manipulation in the sold version of Far Cry, which wasn't possible with the version that was used to evaluate the rating. Because of that it was banned (which means that the game may not be advertised anymore). Ubisoft Germany will release a new version that cannot be reverted to an uncut version anymore that will get the inital USK18 rating and which can be advertised again.

Moleculor
03-31-2004, 10:31 PM
I used to live in Germany. To give you an idea of the extremes they go to to censor stuff... did you ever play the ORIGINAL Command 'n Conquer? The one with Einstein going back in time and 'erasing' Hitler?

Yeah. They took out the part in the video where it showed the past, so they wouldn't have to show Hitler AT ALL, AND they recolored ALL the blood in the game to be black, and called all the human/dog units 'androids'.

They do this to ALL violent games.

NaturalBornGoth
03-31-2004, 10:39 PM
Yeah. You want another example? How about "Soldier of Fortune 2"?

The German version took place in a parallel universe where every single person was a robot that bled oil. But the storyline was the same... yep... i'm ****ting you not. You had to stop the the bad robots from killing the good robots with a biological weapon! It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

Thankfully adults can get the original version without too many problems. I don't even think that anyone was stupid enough to buy this robot-SoF2. But it existed... which is bad enough.

codecypher
03-31-2004, 11:06 PM
Ok, is it just me or is Germany being just silly about this. Its just a game (not even one made by us "evil" Americans). And, BTW...
didn't Germany start both World Wars?

NaturalBornGoth
03-31-2004, 11:13 PM
Well... you guys have your share of silliness either. In Germany it's violence that freaks out certain authorities, in the U.S. it's sex. This leaves the question what is worse: heads that are blown apart or naked boobies? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FireFort23
03-31-2004, 11:15 PM
Seems to me that the German government goes through a lot of trouble just to do what Hitler did - propaganda and censorship. Granted, they're probably doing this for what SEEMS like a good reason, but why censor their past?

Hitler DID order the murders of millions of people. Hitler WAS Germany's leader. Rather than try to hide their past, why not use it as an example of what NOT to do in the future?

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OnCleSAm7
03-31-2004, 11:21 PM
Dude codecypher, are you stupid or what? That's probably why they are all doing that stuff... It's not about evil americans at all, it's about keeping the youth away from bad influences

WAKE UP

NaturalBornGoth
03-31-2004, 11:24 PM
Our past (whatever that means... i was born 30 years after WW2, i sure don't relate to those times) isn't censored in general. Quite the opposite is the fact. We are being reminded of the things that happened back then almost too often. It's just that they don't wanna have that kind of stuff in video games (films are no problem), because they consider them as toys for kids and not as an artform. That's BS, i know, but that' how these authorities see it.

OnCleSAm7 is right... although i, and many many other Germans, don't see how shielding kids from the bad things in life will do them any good.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

TwwIX.
04-01-2004, 12:05 AM
hint: APRIL 1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 12:15 AM
Nope... it's true. I wish it were an April's Fool joke, but it isn't. Not that i would care, i'm gonna buy the english version anyway.

The banning was already announced on Monday and is effective as of tomorrow (April 2nd).

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

metalgtr84
04-01-2004, 12:47 AM
Sucks for them!

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 12:53 AM
the German people started the first and second world war,The Hitler youth fueled WW2. By no means am I bashing or degrading the german people, Berlin is a great city with truly friendly people and a country thats aways striving for peace.

..... Im just saying that maybe we ease up on the violence for the Germans...JK

04-01-2004, 01:34 AM
Germany started not both World Wars. The First
was started by a automatism cause of the the
relationships between Germany-Austrias and on
the other Hand between France-GreatBritain-
Russia (the Entende).
The Trigger was the assassination of the member
of the royal Family in Sarajewo. The Austria declared
war to Serbia, so Germany has to follow, cause of
the Relationship to Austria. So Serbia has a re-
lationship to Russia, so Russia declared, so followd
France , Great Britain and so on! The biggest failure to
all states was, that the think they could keep this conflict
regional and within a couple of weeks this conlict would be
over. What a failure.... that costs over 10 Mill. lives
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

But back to topic. The censorship here in Germany is not funny
anymore. Thanks to the I-net i can get the international versions
of the Games (FarCry, SoF2, Wolfenstein, ...) in the uncut forms.
So is it a wonder that the local sellers of the Develop. company say
that they sell every time less games??? Which intelligent hardcore
Gamer will play Censord Games???? Me not!!!

I am now 36 Years old and i started with a C64 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
an I will never understand why it is OK to see swastikas or Nazi
Personalites in Dokumentations or Movies and NOT in Games???
Doesn't make sense. Didn't it?????

And please remember: IT'S ONLY A GAME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greetz from Germany in OLD EUROPE
J.

n0z3k1ll3r
04-01-2004, 01:41 AM
No offense to anyone here, but as I recall the reason the Germans have all these censorship laws is a result of the mass guilt making EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM feel personally responsible for the Holocaust. As an aside I believe this is largely due to post war Allied propaganda designed to make the Germans feel they deserved things like Dresden, but it can't really be proved either way. Anyways, as a result the German government bans ANYTHING that could inspire violence to stop such an event happening again.

Also if anyone deserves the credit for starting WW2, its France for their stupid demands at Versailles and the US for dragging the whole world down with them in a vain attempt to save themselves during the Depression.

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 02:20 AM
"Also if anyone deserves the credit for starting WW2, its France for their stupid demands at Versailles and the US for dragging the whole world down with them in a vain attempt to save themselves during the Depression."

and hitler was just an esentric...yes their were several factors contributing to the start of both wars...but who did the allies mainly fight....who wanted millions of jews dead.
just because the shot heard round the world started the who thing who dug the trench's

Darkhound85
04-01-2004, 02:35 AM
World War 2 was not the fault of the Allies, you'de have to be a complete idiot or insane to think that. Hitler was a mad, even man and he was bent on Germany ruling the world and whiping out the Jews, and the Allies stopped this.

I can't belive anyone would try and say the Allies were wrong in World War 2. As for Dresden, thats the kind of thing that happens in wartime as wrong or as sad as it is.

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mr.amphibian
04-01-2004, 02:59 AM
hitler is inexcusable... however he only came to power because german people voted for him- and why? because of the fact their economy had been sacrificed by the versailles treaty- without other countries destroying the german economy hitler would have stayed as a right wing party memeber with no votes and no power - and no world war 2- no holocaust and no millions of dead!
money is the root of all evil so meh

_____________________________
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jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 03:17 AM
the treaty of versailles was made becuase of ww1 and the german involvement

The bottem line is the german's come from a violent past all the way back to Germanic tribes. the tribes were some of the most violent and brutal people,they took down the romans...second only to the vikings

sorry for the history lesson but the german goverment is just being safe and considering their violent past I don't blame them

infydave
04-01-2004, 03:22 AM
I knew I had a case when I wanted to open a History forum http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 03:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The bottem line is the german's come from a violent past all the way back to Germanic tribes. the tribes were some of the most violent and brutal people,they took down the romans...second only to the vikings<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh... now Germans are genetically violent, huh? Maybe we are an inferior "race"? Maybe we should be extinct for the sake of the world? Does this way of thinking sound familiar to you? It's generalized thinking like this that lead to the atrocities of World War 2 in the first place. Guess that pig Hitler would have been proud of you.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 03:29 AM
lol

I like it when people acualy have a conversation and don't just spam the boards with nothing...it has been a refreshing history lesson and a good post


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bottem line is the german's come from a violent past all the way back to Germanic tribes. the tribes were some of the most violent and brutal people,they took down the romans...second only to the vikings
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Oh... now Germans are genetically violent, huh? Maybe we are an inferior "race"? Maybe we should be extinct for the sake of the world? Does this way of thinking sound familiar to you? It's generalized thinking like this that lead to the atrocities of World War 2 in the first place. Guess that pig Hitler would have been proud of you.


no no no thats not what i said at all your twisting my words...you can't change the past

Darkhound85
04-01-2004, 03:35 AM
Most countries have had a violent past, just look at Britain (where I'm from)

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jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 03:40 AM
all countries have a violent past,some more violent then others
The only people I fear {well their goverment} are the americans...jk

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 03:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimmyeyes:
no no no thats not what i said at all your twisting my words...you can't change the past<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it sure sounded like it. And no... i can't change the past. Like Americans (which were Europeans anyway) can't change the past in matters of slaughtering natives, enslaving Africans, flattening whole cities of german civilians, nuking two japanese cities after the war was already over, napalming civilians in Vietnam and so on and so on. There is no country on this planet that doesn't have a dark past. Rest assured of that. Yes... Hitler and his Nazi bastards brought this kind of crime to a new level, but that doesn't mean that Germans are more violent than any other people. There were many factors that led to the Holocaust and some of them are happening again, right now in the U.S. of A. under the Bush administration. They are taking away the cherished freemdom bit by bit and one day it will be too late. I really like the US but what Bush is doing to that country makes me sad.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 04:00 AM
"By no means am I bashing or degrading the german people, Berlin is a great city with truly friendly people and a country thats aways striving for peace."
^^^^
I posted this earlier in the thread

.......Germany from a political stand point is one of the most peaceful nations in the world.

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 04:04 AM
Ok, it's just that this tradition of violence thingy was a little strange. No hard feelings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

Indybandit
04-01-2004, 04:05 AM
I've actually found that Germans are less violent than most people. The reason is mainly due to the fact that they have had to pay tremendously for their violent actions. Having your country bombed into dust and then being split in two for almost half a century tends to teach you a valuable lesson about violence.

Nobody is genetically more violent than others. All nations are built on the blood of the weak. You don't build a nation or empire through peace. You build it through war. It's a dark fact but a fact nonetheless.

As far as Bush goes. You also need to remember that liberal and Euro politicians are also showing similarities between Hitler and his propaganda. America is bad. They want to rule the world. We need to unite to rival this possible threat. Does that sound familiar? Sounds like the "Jewish Problem" where the Jews are there to take jobs and money away from decent working people. That also makes me sad that some Euro politicians are spreading fear about friends to further their career. It's happening in the US as well. Euro's are ungrateful. We defend them through the cold war and now this. It's so bad that when I do go to Europe people look down on me for simply being from America.

Fact is this. Don't believe the hype from either side. Most Americans don't want to rule the world and like Euro people. Most Euro people don't dislike Americans and are not ungrateful. No matter what any Politician or News agency tells you. The truth is always somewhere in between.

Darkhound85
04-01-2004, 04:08 AM
To be honest I don't care for Europe (at least its governments one bit), I live in the UK - but as soon as I get a real chance, I'm out of here, as far away from Europe as possible.

The laws in Europe, especially the human rights laws, are utterly pathetic - and the single currency along with many other things is just another thing that erodes the countries identities. I'd rather live in Asia or America than Europe

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NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 04:10 AM
I'm well aware of these facts. That's why i specifically spoke of the administration and not of Americans as a whole.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 04:18 AM
NP...your right about bush tho,bit by bit the american's will lose their freedoms to make for a safer america {solutes the flag} against the axis of evil...a growing amount of eruo countries are anti american {anti bush}

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 04:22 AM
If you like to live under a fascist government... knock yourself out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

Indybandit
04-01-2004, 04:23 AM
Yeah I just hope everybody remembers that not all people are to be judged by the greed of their leaders http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 04:30 AM
Im not american god no the{whole solutes the flag} was a joke


.....if you take a look at the voting charts for the different states the countrie is split right down the middle we could even see the second american civil war

Red_Wagon
04-01-2004, 04:33 AM
This is one American not voting for Bush.

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 04:35 AM
I'll solutes you sir

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimmyeyes:
Im not american god no the{whole solutes the flag} was a joke<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My bad... sarcasm doesn't work very well in forums. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

TripleDES
04-01-2004, 04:40 AM
Regarding censoring the past in Germany:

The irony is that the one of the two country-funded TV channels (ZDF) shows lots documentaries about the second world war incl. Hitler. And noone censors that.

------

get/children -re -pa world:/ | where/object "iq -lt pieceofbread" | $( get/pipeobject )-&gt;kill

...or in short, I hate stupid people.

:P

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 04:45 AM
america is a scary place right now and the sad thing is that its just starting if bush gets in for four more years sad things will happen

Lankku-Ake
04-01-2004, 05:15 AM
Okay there, this has gotten a BIT off topic. Interesting conversation, though.

Anyway, this is about a computer game, not leading a nation or the whole world. What if Germany's past has nothing to do with the banning of Far Cry or the cencorship of games in general. Maybe they just have realized that violence is not to be shown to kids? How does that sound? Be it as it may, I think they are too concerned about it. After all, there's a HUGE difference between seeing a dead body in real life (or just the TV-news) than in a video game. Snap out of it I say.

And BTW, the US of A isn't trying to rule the world, it's just trying to get rid of all the bad things and bad people that threaten it.

I'm a European.

---------------
www.kolumbus.fi/a.huusko (http://www.kolumbus.fi/a.huusko)

darkwolf79
04-01-2004, 06:54 AM
well, it just is like it has always been in history...

it doesn't matter where you live, everyones nation has a dark spot in history.
but, all in all we're on the right way and everything is growing together... like in europe for example... but it just needs a lot more time.

hmm, oh, btw...
the germans didn't really start the second world war as well, hitler was from austria! (&lt;- sarcastic !!)

anyways... i'm a german but i feel international. i could live everywhere... as long as i am free i dont care where i am...

hmm... back to topic...
you know, somehow it is very good publicity for a game when you can say, hey, its banned in germany...
(they did that with doom...)

anyways... this game, besides all the problems, just rocks...

Darkhound85
04-01-2004, 07:01 AM
Er, the way Europe is going is completely the WRONG direction. If the bulk of leaders in Europe had their way, no country would retain its individuality. What European leaders want is a European super state because they are annoyed at America and want to be able to say "We're just as hard as you" which they can only acheive by dragging every country in Europe into a centralised situation (controlled in Brussels, which is perhaps the most hilarious aspect of the whole thing)

I can't believe how its all happening. I dont particularely want British finance/tax/defence etc (although this hasn't happened but its getting there) controlled by some idiots in another country just because we happen to reside on the same continent, or our armed forces making one large defence force just to cover the ineptitude of other countries armed forces. I really cannot understand why anyone in any other country would want it either.

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NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 07:38 AM
It's just so damn hilarious: the whole world gets the uncensored version. But only Germany, the country in which FarCry was made, gets a censored version. Something's seriously wrong about that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

PresidentSkroob
04-01-2004, 07:54 AM
the germans need to relize that it was the nazis not them who commeted all of those crimes.

JettSun
04-01-2004, 08:01 AM
Windows XP home

[This message was edited by JettSun on Thu April 08 2004 at 12:05 AM.]

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 08:21 AM
That's an easy call... i would always prefer the use of enlisted men who knew what awaited them over the nuking of innocent women and children who never knew what hit 'em and who had nothing to do with the war whatsoever. Bombing those cities was nothing but a war crime that was never brought to justice. They wanted to test these weapons under real conditions that's the only reason they were used. Everything else are just excuses to justify this act of cruelty.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

Darkhound85
04-01-2004, 08:37 AM
I tohught Japan only surrendered after the first bomb was dropped?

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fishlore
04-01-2004, 11:57 AM
So the lives of American civilians drafted by the millions to invade Japan wouldn't be worth as much as millions of civilians in a country who started the fight with us?

No civilians should have died. No wars should ever happen. We're all human beings. Until some race of evil mutants from space come down and fight us we will never work together or realize we're all a part of the same team.

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 01:12 PM
bombing people is what america is best at doing,they feed their troops drugs to kill faster and they end up killing canadain and british troops,they drop bombs on the red cross and say sorry...... they kill women and children by the hundreds and say sorry. If you really want to be picky the last couple america presidents have the blood of innocent people on their hands

DarKnyt
04-01-2004, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkhound85:
I tohught Japan only surrendered after the first bomb was dropped?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Japan didn't surrender until after the SECOND bomb. They were actually in a deadlocked cabinet meeting over the proposed treaty. It was only upon learning of the second bombing during that meeting that they agreed to the provisions under the Potsdam Declaration.

You can read a little about it here: http://www.ww2pacific.com/surrender.html

Of course, I could always be wrong. . .

DarKnyt
04-01-2004, 03:42 PM
double post

BassBullet
04-01-2004, 03:47 PM
Just curious, but would Germany have banned this game had there been say full frontal nudity in it?

It seems like a lot of Europe is quite in support of such inappropriate media, and yet censoring violence, which in my view is much less destructive to society, is clearly something Germany is in favor of.

So I'm just wondering what Germany likes to censor, if they are really trying to "protect" the youth, than that is one issue, but if they just censor violence and let other things go, then that is another issue al together.

0Brass

-Brass

BassBullet
04-01-2004, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NaturalBornGoth:
That's an easy call... i would always prefer the use of enlisted men who knew what awaited them over the nuking of innocent women and children who never knew what hit 'em and who had nothing to do with the war whatsoever. Bombing those cities was nothing but a war crime that was never brought to justice. They wanted to test these weapons under real conditions that's the only reason they were used. Everything else are just excuses to justify this act of cruelty.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really hope you are never in a position where you have to make an important decision. Not with that attitide at least.

-Brass

Jetenginedr
04-01-2004, 04:04 PM
Keep the political arguments and leader bashing outta this forum and into off-topic if you need to do so....and if so do it maturely.


Back on topic now and ice cream for all!

Cantrana
04-01-2004, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JettSun:
President Truman knew he would slaughter innocent civilians instantly with those BOMBS and he also knew that a mainland invasion of Japan would kill tens of thousands of our own troops and drag out the war for another year.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the estimated Death toll was over a million on each side.

If the Americans would have invaded mainland Japan, the Japan Emperor was ready and was going to order a command that all Women, children, and men fight the invasion. They would have used whatever possible to stop the invasion. So either way you look at it, by dropping the bomb or invading, many civilians would have died. Also, by dropping the bomb, less people were killed total than a full out invasion of mainland Japan.

It wasn't like Turman or anyone knew the after affects of using the Bomb, so they can't be blamed for that. But if i was in Turmans position i would have done the exact same thing.

FYI: I am an American. I support many things Bush has done, but the acts taht got passed after Sept. 11th like the Patriot Act i do not agree with, It infringes our rights. With that in mind, I will vote for Bush because Kerry would not be an improvement over Bush.

//::Mein Herz Brennt::\\

lnfidel
04-01-2004, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkhound85:
I can't believe how its all happening. I dont particularely want British finance/tax/defence etc (although this hasn't happened but its getting there) controlled by some idiots in another country <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that what the British Empire was all about? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Infidel

JettSun
04-01-2004, 07:22 PM
Windows XP home

[This message was edited by JettSun on Thu April 08 2004 at 12:05 AM.]

oberon42
04-01-2004, 08:43 PM
Well little things like Bosnia spring to mind throughout this convo(and there are a damn lot more)Treating War and ultimatelly Death in this fashion is something the Us have grown accustomed too sanatizing(and also seem rather good at)Destroying the fabric of the society that there trying to Help!
Im more scared of what the Us will eventuallay do to the world than i ever was about Russia.

Obe...

Naggas_01
04-01-2004, 08:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Indybandit:
You don't build a nation or empire through peace. You build it through war. It's a dark fact but a fact nonetheless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just for the record, Australia wasn't built through war (we were reminded of this fact at one of our recent Australia Days, a couple years back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Picaso1
04-01-2004, 08:59 PM
It's not about evil americans at all, it's about keeping the youth away from bad influences
-----------------------------------------------

Maybe they are so afraid of what happened in the past, that they want to take EVEY STEP Possible to keep it from happening again.

If one man was able to influence the population to such a degree in the early 19th century, the modern media of today is much more suited to the task.

04-01-2004, 09:01 PM
In my opinion, anything would be a large improvement over Bush.

I support NO acts that infringe ANY amount of my privacy or rights whatsoever... I live by the words of Benjamin Franklin: "Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither."

That is the sort of thing our country was founded on. And that is what we should continue to value, unfortunately with republicans dominating the entire government, and all republicans having very large consequences awaiting them for disagreeing with Bush, too many horrible things are being done.

Technically, its against our own policy to have gone to war with Iraq. Thats why it wasn't actually a war. (Monroe doctrine, anyone?)

Anyhow, Germany's censorship system is much more effective than the majority of the western world. Whereas it is still too strict in my opinion, they are doing much better in censoring violence than in mindlessly censoring NUDITY!

While the Americas censor what is natural, and any the opinion of many, our main purpose on this earth, they censor random acts of senseless violence. It is just a video game however, and a very entertaining one at that. But at least nudity isn't an "Oh my god think of the children!" thing over there.

No offense meant,
animus

JettSun
04-01-2004, 09:01 PM
Windows XP home

[This message was edited by JettSun on Thu April 08 2004 at 12:06 AM.]

homernoyb
04-01-2004, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by animose:
In my opinion, anything would be a large improvement over Bush.

I support NO acts that infringe ANY amount of my privacy or rights whatsoever... I live by the words of Benjamin Franklin: "Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither."


Try to remember, a lot of what is the constitution in Germany, was created by the Allies post holocaust. Think about it......

That is the sort of thing our country was founded on. And that is what we should continue to value, unfortunately with republicans dominating the entire government, and all republicans having very large consequences awaiting them for disagreeing with Bush, too many horrible things are being done.

Technically, its against our own policy to have gone to war with Iraq. Thats why it wasn't actually a war. (Monroe doctrine, anyone?)

Anyhow, Germany's censorship system is much more effective than the majority of the western world. Whereas it is still too strict in my opinion, they are doing much better in censoring violence than in mindlessly censoring NUDITY!

While the Americas censor what is natural, and any the opinion of many, our main purpose on this earth, they censor random acts of senseless violence. It is just a video game however, and a very entertaining one at that. But at least nudity isn't an "Oh my god think of the children!" thing over there.

No offense meant,
animus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rohackle
04-01-2004, 09:23 PM
Maybe if the nazis had cool video games back in the day they could take out their anger on pixel guys...

But i guess cannabilism and $%#@-eating videos are still ok...

NaturalBornGoth
04-01-2004, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BassBullet:
[QUOTE]I really hope you are never in a position where you have to make an important decision. Not with that attitide at least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah... i have a terrible attitude. I believe that slaughtering innocent civilians with a "doomsday weapon" is much worse than actual combat where people at least have a chance to defend themselves and fight for their lives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JettSun:
But Gothbaby, you didn't think of that and your EASY decision just cost the lives of millions instead of tens of thousands.

How does that make you feel now?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all i feel that you should cut the patronizing tone. If you are, by calling me "Gothbaby", suggesting that i might be a kid, i have to disappoint you. I'm 28 years old. That's a hard setback for your goth prejudices, huh?

Secondly: how do you wanna know that not dropping the bombs would have killed millions? Sure, they could have killed the children and babies by conventionally bombing and flattening these cities, like they did in Germany, but that doesn't make it any better. But like said above: by ending this war in conventional ways, the victims at least would have had a chance to survive. But nuking cities just like that is simply cowardice on the expense of absolutely innocent civilians.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

ntjones
04-01-2004, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by animose:
In my opinion, anything would be a large improvement over Bush.

I support NO acts that infringe ANY amount of my privacy or rights whatsoever... I live by the words of Benjamin Franklin: "Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither."

That is the sort of thing our country was founded on. And that is what we should continue to value, unfortunately with republicans dominating the entire government, and all republicans having very large consequences awaiting them for disagreeing with Bush, too many horrible things are being done.

Technically, its against our own policy to have gone to war with Iraq. Thats why it wasn't actually a war. (Monroe doctrine, anyone?)

Anyhow, Germany's censorship system is much more effective than the majority of the western world. Whereas it is still too strict in my opinion, they are doing much better in censoring violence than in mindlessly censoring NUDITY!

While the Americas censor what is natural, and any the opinion of many, our main purpose on this earth, they censor random acts of senseless violence. It is just a video game however, and a very entertaining one at that. But at least nudity isn't an "Oh my god think of the children!" thing over there.

No offense meant,
animus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree with you animose. I also find it very silly that we can get so upset about a nipple, but its perfectly acceptable to show dead, burnt americans on tv (yes, it was on some channels). How can nudity be worse than violence?

I am not saying that I agree with Germanys decision, but I understand their thinking.

Also, please don't fault the the current citizens of Germany for the holocaust. What is the saying? Something about those with glass houses not throwing stones? I am an american, and our past...and present...is filled with blood! You want to talk about the past? I live in a place (California) because we stole it from the Indians and then murdered most of them.

Man I wish we could all just... "get along."

[This message was edited by ntjones on Thu April 01 2004 at 09:30 PM.]

jimmyeyes
04-01-2004, 11:27 PM
I never got that, nipples...bad...dead people...ok

it only in america are tits blured out,and on the next channel burning G.Is. thats ****ed

Gdawg101
04-02-2004, 11:08 AM
NaturalBornGoth,
These innocent civilians were not as innocent as you make them out to be; they were the ones working in factories to make the bullets and bombs that killed American troops. And if the United States had invaded the mainland, these civilians would have been forced to fight, often times without weapons. So, was it not better to save the lives of American troops by killing these civilians who were probably going to die anyway?

Mr_ALLroy
04-02-2004, 03:42 PM
Move to Canada. You can buy nasty violent games, download music and not get in trouble and smoke weed while doing it all!

Oh Canada...

Sorry for the spam, all this "German" talk has made me a bit patriotic.

04-02-2004, 04:17 PM
uhm, you guys can argue about the decision to nuke those 2 cities all day and all night for 40 years, but they both got nuked and no matter how much you argue whether it was a good decision, it happened and theres nothing you can do about it now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

jimmyeyes
04-03-2004, 12:48 AM
Move to Canada. You can buy nasty violent games, download music and not get in trouble and smoke weed while doing it all!

Oh Canada...

LOL...thats canda in a nut shell, I stand on garde for thee...god keep are land...wipes tear from eye

NL_Gryphon
04-03-2004, 11:49 AM
when you see how people suffer when you kill them would make you see the light...

http://ofp.gamezone.cz/_hosted/marcel/Deniz/Gandalf2.JPG

NaturalBornGoth
04-03-2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gdawg101:
NaturalBornGoth,
These innocent civilians were not as innocent as you make them out to be; they were the ones working in factories to make the bullets and bombs that killed American troops.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah... i can see it right before my imaginary eyes:

http://www.phototravels.net/japan/pcd1663/baby-girl-11.3.jpg
"I'm doing my part to kill American soldiers!"



Sorry... but that's BS and you know it. No, it wasn't better to kill kids to save the soldiers.

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

Fudoh
04-03-2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NaturalBornGoth:
...
Sorry... but that's BS and you know it. No, it wasn't better to kill kids to save the soldiers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They'll never understand this...

Die Amerikaner legen doch momentan ein 'Sendungsbewusstsein' an den Tag, wie damals zu Zeiten des Imperialismus...muessig darueber zu diskutieren...

kimi_
04-03-2004, 08:00 PM
"These days the Americans reveal an attitude like back in the days of Imperialism. No need to discuss that any further" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<left><font color ="FF0099">________________________
</left></font color>
http://www.smakclan.com/downloads/ss/sigs/Kimi.gif
<font color="FF0099"><font size="1"> ICQ #310135451
Ubisoft RVS/AS, GR, and Far Cry Moderator</font color></font size>

[This message was edited by Kimi on Sun April 04 2004 at 02:50 PM.]

NaturalBornGoth
04-03-2004, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kimi:
"These days the Americans reveal a mission-consciousness like back in the days of Imperialism. No need to discuss that anyfurther" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol
owned! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

CoT-AndiWahn
04-04-2004, 02:23 PM
The German Version is censored, yes, but you can easily get US or English Version. So I think it is not such important that German Version is censored!
Germany doesnt cry anymore, it's normal that we get censored games http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

JettSun
04-04-2004, 02:49 PM
Windows XP home

[This message was edited by JettSun on Thu April 08 2004 at 12:07 AM.]

lnfidel
04-04-2004, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JettSun:
Cantrana, you are right. I absolutely agree with you. The choice Truman made was the best choice. Yes, more lives would have been lost on both sides if mainland invasion of Japan had taken place, no doubt. I think all historians and even Japanese are in agreement on that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Admiral Leahy, Chief of Staff to presidents Roosevelt and Truman:

"It is my opinion that the use of the barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

US Strategic Bombing Survey Report, 1946:

"The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender. The Emperor, the Lord Privy Seal, the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, and the Navy Minister had decided as early as May of 1945 that the war should be ended even if it meant acceptance of defeat on allied terms.

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Infidel

NaturalBornGoth
04-04-2004, 11:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JettSun:
Gothbaby, that is a cop out. Bringing up the picture of the little child AS IF THE CHILD KNOWS WHAT IS GOING ON!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That'S my whole point! It was intended to show you that there were a great many of civilians killed by those bombs, that didn't even have an idea what "war" means. I "used" the kid because you seemed to think that every single Japanese was working against the Americans which simply and obviously (to a sound mind) wasn't the case. But it seems that vaporizing little children is only an atrocity and a war crime when performed by other countries than the U.S.. America seems to have some sort of "Get out of jail"-card.

But of course, how to bring a government to justice that, in our time, threatens to invade the Netherlands should they dare bringing American soldiers in front of the International Court of Justice in The Hague in order to take responsibility of war crimes performed in Iraq and Afghanistan?

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

jimmyeyes
04-05-2004, 12:46 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JettSun:
Gothbaby, that is a cop out. Bringing up the picture of the little child AS IF THE CHILD KNOWS WHAT IS GOING ON!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"That'S my whole point! It was intended to show you that there were a great many of civilians killed by those bombs, that didn't even have an idea what "war" means. I "used" the kid because you seemed to think that every single Japanese was working against the Americans which simply and obviously (to a sound mind) wasn't the case. But it seems that vaporizing little children is only an atrocity and a war crime when performed by other countries than the U.S.. America seems to have some sort of "Get out of jail"-card.

But of course, how to bring a government to justice that, in our time, threatens to invade the Netherlands should they dare bringing American soldiers in front of the International Court of Justice in The Hague in order to take responsibility of war crimes performed in Iraq and Afghanistan?"""

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.....goth is kind of right, read the book Hiroshima It tells the story of 3 people going about their lives when the bombs hit. docters, mothers,movers,babys and kids, it turned a normal community in to a death field,wounded and dead for miles crying out for help these people weren't soilders.


as for Iraq and Afghanistan bush is a war criminal with the blood of women and chlidren on his hands same goes for the last couple of presidents...sad nothing will ever be done about it

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Sun April 04 2004 at 11:57 PM.]

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Sun April 04 2004 at 11:57 PM.]

Nailzer
04-05-2004, 08:12 PM
Frist off its a Game. Game or gaming is supposed to provide entertainment to one or more ppl. Trying to avoid reality is plain stupid on the part of the censorships. Yea we have them in the USA..lol Heck i had rather see naked women that blood and guts any day but heck. When you have a church on every corner like it is hear..its a sin. OMG . lmao. Well no matter where your at theres alwaays someone trying to be big brother when they should stay out of the entertainment bussness. peace ppl's

QANU
04-05-2004, 10:08 PM
For the record, the US never ratified the treaty of Versailles, and Wilson opposed it because of the indemnities and the whole colonial land grab. Blame the English, Italians, and French. But don't forget, it was the Germans who elected Hitler.

Anyway, is it hard to get the real versions of games in Europe?

QANU
04-05-2004, 10:11 PM
remember "Life of Brian"

So funny it was banned in Sweden!

jimmyeyes
04-06-2004, 01:43 AM
remember "Life of Brian"

So funny it was banned in Sweden!



....why..nothing really to bad

JettSun
04-06-2004, 03:52 PM
Windows XP home

[This message was edited by JettSun on Thu April 08 2004 at 12:07 AM.]

jimmyeyes
04-07-2004, 09:55 PM
windows xp pro

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Thu April 08 2004 at 02:17 AM.]

jimmyeyes
04-08-2004, 04:03 AM
^^^^^^^^^^

Nasi2k4
04-08-2004, 03:56 PM
I'm german and i mean, that BPjM (they testing the game and bann they) realy sux ...
All games are censored or banned, it realy sux.

****InG BpJm AnD ThE PeOpLe WhO BaNnEd GaMeZ

lnfidel
04-08-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by QANU:
For the record, the US never ratified the treaty of Versailles, and Wilson opposed it because of the indemnities and the whole colonial land grab. Blame the English, Italians, and French. But don't forget, it was the Germans who elected Hitler.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually only about 1/3 of the Germans voted for Hitler's NSDAP, but he managed to take power anyway, because he used weaknesses in the constitution of the Weimar Republic to his advantage.

Infidel

cobbb17
04-09-2004, 01:00 AM
This is all in my opinion: I have to disagree with Jimmyeyes about all the blood being on our recent presidents. I didn't like Clinton to much, but Bush seems to be the only president recently that puts a little foot-to-*** for this country. I'm only glad that when September 11 happened, Bush was in control and not Clinton. Because IMO, Clinton would have been asleep at the switch. If Clinton was still president, u think we would have Sadaam now? Slick Will would've lobbed some missles and called it a day. I remember driving around the Penn/NJ border and seeing a bunch of protestors and it irritated the hell out of me how people can be. So we don't like how Osama sent 2 planes into the WTC, but we can't retaliate with some violence? Sure casualties are gunna be part of war, it comes with the territory. So basically, we need to retaliate, but we can't have blood on our hands. I mean if I were president, and the choices were to send my countries soldiers to kill my countries enemies and inevitably kill some innocent bystanders, or to sit back and watch terrorists take pot shots at my nation, I think the choice is quite clear. I'd be damned to let my country go without a fight.

Please note this is from a 17 year old who bases his opinion on what he hears in U.S History Class, Fox News, Gary Savage, and his own opinion.

[This message was edited by cobbb17 on Fri April 09 2004 at 12:16 AM.]

jimmyeyes
04-09-2004, 01:27 AM
See that is the sad thing, the American government bombed innocent people well before Sept 11. The military feeds their troops speed and innocent Canadian and British troops are killed, nothing is done. these so called "smart bombs" delivered payloads too the red cross,Arab schools and hospitals. the bombs were never intended for those installations they were accidents, apologies were made and all is better. think of it from their perspective, a world power bombs from afar, killing your country men and it an accident. The accidents don't stop years and presidents later their are still "accidents"....What would you do.

ify1
04-09-2004, 01:58 AM
I just wanted to say "Hi". What a discussion I've been missing...don't think I want to get involved really. Would anyone like some nice iced tea? I'll make it hot if ya like! Or perhaps a nice ice cold Dr. Pepper? I got a whole fridge full of 'em! I know, I'll make some cookies, get some chips and dips and we can all play Parcheese! Wouldn't that be nice? Peace, y'all.

Ify

ps. can't we all just get along?

jimmyeyes
04-09-2004, 04:53 AM
I apologizes if I sound anti-American it could not be further from the truth. I'm just a politically passionate person aka anti bush..lol..jk

Jetenginedr
04-09-2004, 07:34 AM
Jimmy...I have to say something not as a mod but as a forum member here.I respect that everyone has a political view and chooses to voice their opinion.I have no idea how old you are but from reading this thread and some of your replies I am guessing maybe 17yo...you must be one of those new age hippy's who hear alittle 60's music and think "hey let's protest,it's the IN thing to do and funky chicks love that"

I saw a bumper sticker once that said:

Jerry's Dead
Phish Sucks
Get a job!

You are welcome here to be anti-whatever but post with some thought involved in it.You make it sound like we intentionally decided to bomb the red cross or hospitals.....come on,wake up dude.That is just nonsense being pulled outta your butt. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

[This message was edited by Jetenginedr on Fri April 09 2004 at 12:40 PM.]

jimmyeyes
04-09-2004, 04:01 PM
I don't want to make a big thing about this especially with a mod but what exactly am I saying that is nonsense being pulled outta my butt. new age hippy, thats just a label tacked on to avoid dealing with the reality of the subject. Calling me young and impressionable and to only being motivated by fads is just attacking me without giving your own opinion wile boosting your own character.
Are you an American?.....do you think that would affect your view on the subject?
you come to say "put thought in to your posts" I do nothing but, maybe my thoughts differ from your thoughts...are mine wrong
I please asked you to point out untruths in my statements. I don't protest, work eats of most of my time but I guess the half of the world that is protesting is wrong and motivated by fades....sad that there are so many new age hippies. do you have an opinion on this subjected your did just come here to belittle mine.

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Sat April 10 2004 at 03:01 AM.]

Jetenginedr
04-09-2004, 07:21 PM
Well,forgive me for belittling you.Not to really mean any harm..heck this is a fired up political thread anyway.As long as we are not swinging in this thread..I'm just a forum member here..speak what you like within forum rules.

See..I am really not political myself do to all the flaming back and forth over topics.I hate that crap.What I also hate is how closed minded some people can be when looking at reality.

Your earlier post mentions "The American military feeds their troops speed and Canadian and British troops are killed" Tell me where did you pull that up from? If somehow you do find true facts about our military feeding troops speed then please show me a comparison of other countries military "accidents" to ours.Are there none? It seems you make the US armed forces sound like a bunch of drugged up arm wielding villians.Generalizations like that are a sign of narrow thinking.Do you know the facts about the entire incident? Was there a lack of communication at anytime? Maybe there were inop IFF devices so the troops couldn't tell good guys from bad? neither of us were there during that incident so we can't really say.

The smart bombs you describe or GPS guided munitions.Do you really believe ever story from Iraqi news that a bomb hit women & children? That is called propaganda.I am sure some of them went off target but what do you expect? From what I have read/seen weapons technology has advanced dramatically since aerial bomb delivery first started.This isn't WW2 carpet bombing but it isn't DNA tracked bombing either.

As for war criminals....your point of view seriously clashes with mine.I won't even go into this.You people seem to think war is clean..go find your target,eliminate it and everyone walks away satisfied.No more terrorists,no more conflicts...perfect (yeah right)

oh and the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing.After the attrocites that were commited to the Chinese and Allied forces...I wish I could have been there in the bombadier position of the Enola Gay on August 6Th & 9Th.

I have to lean on Cobbb17's side here.

NaturalBornGoth
04-09-2004, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetenginedr:
I wish I could have been there in the bombadier position of the Enola Gay on August 6Th & 9Th.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's the most disgusting thing i've read in a long while. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

http://acepas.sharksreef.de/cs/noctem.jpg

ify1
04-09-2004, 10:17 PM
&lt;practicing extreme restraint&gt; &lt;trying to balance a desire to stay neutral with the intense urge to shoot my mouth off&gt;

Hey, everybody! I made some nice tunafish salad sandwiches and rented Men In Black! I figured we could play Trivial Pursuit after the movie. Who wants to come and play? Any takers? C'mon it'll be fun!

Ify

jimmyeyes
04-10-2004, 01:18 AM
first off i would just like to say thank you Jetenginedr for coming to this post as a forum member not a mod it is much appreciated.


this is from the bbc news I can't link sorry{http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1936589.stm}

A US fighter plane in Afghanistan has accidentally bombed a group of Canadian troops, killing four soldiers and injuring eight others.
The incident, which occurred during a routine training exercise, happened near the southern city of Kandahar, 14 kilometres (eight miles) from the airport.

US officials said initial reports suggested that the pilot of at least one of a group of F-16 fighter planes had mistaken a live-fire exercise for hostile fire.

And here is a later report of the drug use
again no link [http://www.csdp.org/news/news/methupdate.htm}

US Air Force pilots who dropped bombs on Canadian troops during the Afghanistan conflict in 2002 were on amphetamine, according to the Air Force. Officials deny that the drugs had any involvement, but attorneys for the pilots argue otherwise. As the Toronto Globe & Mail reported on Dec. 20, 2002 ( "US Pilots 'Guinea Pigs,' Lawyer Says") that "The American pilots who mistakenly killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan were drugged-up 'guinea pigs' at the time of the bombing, one of their defence lawyers said yesterday. 'This was an Air Force science project using AF pilots as guinea pigs,' Charles Gittins, lawyer for Major Harry Schmidt, said in an e-mail interview with The Globe and Mail yesterday. This fall, a U.S. military investigation criticized the force's use of amphetamines, but found that the drugs used by Major Schmidt and Major Bill Umbach were simply 'not a factor' in the pilots' fateful decision to drop a 225-kilogram, laser-guided bomb on Canadian infantry soldiers. Eight were wounded and four were killed by the pilots, who mistook the ground troops for enemy fighters. The U.S. pilots have been charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Their defenders argue that blame should focus on higher-ups, and say that the U.S. military's use of amphetamines -- so-called 'go pills' -- deserves serious scrutiny."

I don't talk out of my *** here's the red cross {http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/civilian2.htm]

There have inevitably been plenty of "blunders", from the striking of Red Cross warehouses to the killing of anti-Taliban fighters, caused by stray bombs, mistakes and bad or deliberately skewed intelligence. The Pentagon factors in a 10% failure rate for the 11,315 bombs it had dropped by December 5 and only a 6% failure rate for the controversial cluster bombs, although demining experts now dealing with the fallout put the cluster failure rate at up to 22%.

Most civilians have died where the fighting and the bombing have been the most intense - the November battle for the Taliban's last northern stronghold of Kunduz, the early December onslaught on the Tora Bora caves complex south of the eastern town of Jalalabad, the campaign to capture the cradle of the Taliban, Kandahar in the south.

There was barely a fight for Kabul. The Northern Alliance lost four men taking the capital. But the concentration of military targets in and around the city means that an estimated 100 civilians died in the bombing.

Most of those killed are as a result of "mistakes" during high-altitude bombing, the central feature of modern American war-making, which wreaks havoc on the ground but keeps US servicemen in a relatively risk-free environment in the skies.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


propaganda i think not I would never make up storys like that.
War is dirty and very much a part of human nature {survival of the fittest} right.the only thing I'm strongly against is the death of innocent people. Don't judge a nation by the actions of a hand full of people.

Ify1 your being very diplomatic,It's very welcome in such a serious discussion..and yes I will have a tuna salad sandwich, men in black is one of my favorite movies should be a fun night

[This message was edited by jimmyeyes on Sat April 10 2004 at 03:06 AM.]

kimi_
04-10-2004, 01:58 AM
ify is serving refreshments?

<left><font color ="FF0099">_______________________________
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ify1
04-10-2004, 02:58 AM
Yes, good lady. I'm just trying to mellow the atmosphere a little bit. It seems to be a very heated/angry discussion. I'm not trying to detract from the conversation per se...it is quite a valid one.

For that matter I have to hand it to the participants of this thread. Despite the volatile nature of the discussion there has been a minimum of name-calling and for the most part it's been an honest exchange of facts and ideas. It's an issue both sides feel quite passionate about and the restraint I've seen exercised is most admirable.

However, in the interest of temporary distraction would anyone like a tunafish sandwich?

Thank you, Jimmyeyes. Diplomatic is exactly what I was trying to be. Here's your sandwich...would you like a Dr. Pepper with that? I agree, it should be a fun night! Everyone's invited...no matter how different your opinions! Maybe we could talk Kimi into playing Twister with us...that should be fun and take a few minds off the subject at hand! (Sorry, Kimi...hope you don't mind)

Have fun!

Ify

jimmyeyes
04-10-2004, 03:13 AM
my thoughts exactly ify....and ah twister sounds kinda fun after Trivial Pursuit........naturally

ify1
04-10-2004, 03:22 AM
Naturally! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ify

Killer_Waffle
04-10-2004, 08:46 AM
ify, throw me one of those sandwhich bad boys dude http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...
It is surely a heated discussion, but with respect for each others opinions. Of course not everyone is going to agree about the issue, but at least no one is arguing without backing up their facts. The military & drugs issue is not new though, it's something that was done before in the 60's with lsd, turned out not as they expected either. (cfr Jacob's ladder)

A war is exactly what the words says, it's nothing pretty, far from clean and people will make mistakes...the world would surely be better off if any issue could be settled through diplomacy, yet some are too triggerhappy.

Can't we just all get along? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

NI!

RedneckHunter
04-10-2004, 04:14 PM
I think the only people we DON'T have to fear are the FRENCH....as all they ever do is drop everything and surrender.....

Ok, so.......Pull The Pin.....Release The Spoon.....Drop The Nade.....Throw The Pin.....no, wait...Um...!@#$

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kimi_
04-10-2004, 05:00 PM
Sandwich bad boys? Waffle are you trying to sound American!?!?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<left><font color ="FF0099">_______________________________
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Killer_Waffle
04-10-2004, 06:02 PM
Redneck,
that's just a rather stupid and totally uncalled comment you're throwing there.
The french have what you call the legionaires (not sure of spelling), which is actually an army consisting of mercenaries. Those guys are so extreme even us marines would run away like hell. So they won't surrender that fast...
and no, i'm not french, although they're neighbors....with some decent wine & cheese http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NI!

ify1
04-10-2004, 08:24 PM
Here's a tunafish salad sandwich for ya, Killer_Waffle! Sorry I don't have any wine but you're welcome to a Dr. Pepper! Mmmmmm, nice, cold, fresh Dr. Pepper...what could be better?

Yeah, this discussion is quite a valid one...but it's kind of like discussing religion...no one is going to change their minds. Best to agree to disagree and go from there. I was just trying to interrupt a little in hopes of preventing it from coming to blows.

LOL! They're talking about Hitler on the Discovery Wings channel! I can't escape! This discussion is everywhere!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif How ironic.

As for the French, they took Jerry Lewis off our hands. They're gods! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif At the very least they collectively have a stronger stomach than I!

Ify

lnfidel
04-10-2004, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetenginedr:
I wish I could have been there in the bombadier position of the Enola Gay on August 6Th & 9Th.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is plain disgusting.

Did you actually read what I wrote about the necessity of those bombs a couple pages up?

Or would you just have wanted to kill them anyway, because they were Japanese? Did every Japanese commit atrocities? Did each and every one of those people deserve to die? Men, women, children?

You want to revenge an atrocity with an atrocity. Oh yes, it is one. Yours is just more comforting, because you don't have to look into the eyes of your victims.

If everyone had your attitude this world would never come to peace.

Infidel

Jetenginedr
04-12-2004, 07:04 AM
You guys crack me up with your holier than thou attitude.
If you look closely I never did say I would have hit the pickle now did I...lol

...oh actually I would have.


How about those totured Chinese civilians Infidel? I guess to you that's not an atrocity? When do you use that word? when a big boom goes off and the pilots are "comforted" by being out of reach? You think Tibbets got out of that pilots seat without a few marbles loose?

Infidel,In my 33 years on this planet I have probably read more Hiroshima books/watched films on the manhattan project than you realise.

It is easy for you people to sit here and complain about decisions that were made long before your time and condemn them...as well as decide what you would have done finding your way more ethical.gee,your all heros now huh?

Unless we can be directly involved ,all our talk is just BS.Move on....there will be no Nobel Peace prizes today folks.

[This message was edited by Jetenginedr on Mon April 12 2004 at 06:28 AM.]

ify1
04-12-2004, 07:31 AM
Dam! Guess I'll scrap that acceptance speech I've been working on. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Ify

Killer_Waffle
04-12-2004, 09:31 AM
oh come on Ify, it was just such a great speech http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
for the rest i'm not going to comment on things, except that it's a very silly discussion and you shall all be made to wear pink tutu's before going out!

NI!

RedneckHunter
04-12-2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Killer_Waffle:
Redneck,
that's just a rather stupid and totally uncalled comment you're throwing there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's not stupid or uncalled for. You wanna know how ANAL the French are..?? The Target chain(French Corporation)here in the US, would NOT allow the Marine Corps to have a Toys For Tots booth setup outside of thier stores because it was the "Marines" and therefore "military" in general.

So they took a personal agenda against the Marines that were just trying to help kids at Christmas. No other Corp. denied them that.

Ok, so.......Pull The Pin.....Release The Spoon.....Drop The Nade.....Throw The Pin.....no, wait...Um...!@#$

DFWFrag (http://www.dfwfrag.com) Your Dallas Fort Worth LAN Specialists.

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jimmyeyes
04-12-2004, 10:45 AM
The French have a strong military background, a large air force and the previously mentioned legionaries{second best only to the sas}.

Your argument is with a corporation not with the French government or the military, making your previous statement inaccurate and uncalled for.

Killer_Waffle
04-12-2004, 10:51 AM
couldn't have said it any better ....
and i'm sure there have been other stores that refused placing that booth on their sidewalk..

if you dislike the target shops, then go k-mart? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

NI!

RedneckHunter
04-12-2004, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimmyeyes:
Your argument is with a corporation not with the French government or the military, making your previous statement inaccurate and uncalled for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FRENCH nonetheless.

Ok, so.......Pull The Pin.....Release The Spoon.....Drop The Nade.....Throw The Pin.....no, wait...Um...!@#$

DFWFrag (http://www.dfwfrag.com) Your Dallas Fort Worth LAN Specialists.

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Killer_Waffle
04-12-2004, 11:11 AM
oi vey!
btw redneck, edit your sig, it's still too big..

NI!

RedneckHunter
04-12-2004, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimmyeyes:
Your argument is with a corporation not with the French government or the military, making your previous statement inaccurate and uncalled for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That French Corporation made a "Political" decision based on thier Government. Therefore there is no differnece. So that basically makes your comment inaccurate huh....

Ok, so.......Pull The Pin.....Release The Spoon.....Drop The Nade.....Throw The Pin.....no, wait...Um...!@#$

DFWFrag (http://www.dfwfrag.com) Your Dallas Fort Worth LAN Specialists.

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Killer_Waffle
04-12-2004, 11:35 AM
are you almost done whining about Target? Did they refuse a hug when you bought something or so? You think it's a political decision, yet you have no information proving your point...

*sees the army of King Arthur walk up to redneck's doorstep and whisper this bit of info in his ear:

GET ON WITH IT!*

NI!

jimmyeyes
04-12-2004, 11:54 AM
I think this thread should be put down for it has lived a cruel a unusual life.

RedneckHunter
04-12-2004, 12:53 PM
I don't need to prove jack, due to it being all over the newspaper when it happened.

Ok, so.......Pull The Pin.....Release The Spoon.....Drop The Nade.....Throw The Pin.....no, wait...Um...!@#$

DFWFrag (http://www.dfwfrag.com) Your Dallas Fort Worth LAN Specialists.

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ify1
04-12-2004, 01:44 PM
I'm packing up my refreshments and taking them to a different thread. It's obviously done no good so I'm outta here. Before I go I will make a final suggestion. Why don't y'all choose up sides, fire up Far Cry in multiplayer mode and just blast the snot out of each other? It'd be easier and less keystrokes!

over and out

Ify

lnfidel
04-12-2004, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetenginedr:
You guys crack me up with your holier than thou attitude.
If you look closely I never did say I would have hit the pickle now did I...lol

...oh actually I would have.


How about those totured Chinese civilians Infidel? I guess to you that's not an atrocity?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you actually take the time to read through my post? It's right above yours. I quite clearly said: "You want to revenge an atrocity with an atrocity."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When do you use that word? when a big boom goes off and the pilots are "comforted" by being out of reach? You think Tibbets got out of that pilots seat without a few marbles loose?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should read about the Milgram Experiment:

http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm

Many people would not be able to kill a child directly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Infidel,In my 33 years on this planet I have probably read more Hiroshima books/watched films on the manhattan project than you realise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what is that to prove? Some people have lived their whole lifes believing a misconception.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is easy for you people to sit here and complain about decisions that were made long before your time and condemn them...as well as decide what you would have done finding your way more ethical.gee,your all heros now huh?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you took the time to read through this thread, which I seriously doubt now, you would have found my references to the US Strategic Bombing Survey from 1946 and to the words of Admiral Leahy, Chief of Staff to Presidents Roosevelt and Truman:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=836109392&m=915102523&r=282101133#282101133

I take it these are qualified sources. Taking them into account you only have your lust for revenge to justify your willingness to drop a bomb.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless we can be directly involved ,all our talk is just BS.Move on....there will be no Nobel Peace prizes today folks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You won't be called a war hero either, so why do you get involved in this discussion?

I don't find these discussions futile. It is only when we reflect on our past that we can learn for the future.

Infidel

RedneckHunter
04-13-2004, 02:29 PM
This one time at terroristcamp.....


http://webpages.charter.net/redneckhunter/ScreenShots/training_camp.jpg

Ok, so.......Pull The Pin.....Release The Spoon.....Drop The Nade.....Throw The Pin.....no, wait...Um...!@#$

DFWFrag (http://www.dfwfrag.com) Your Dallas Fort Worth LAN Specialists.

System Specs:
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Leadtek 5950 Ultra (http://www.leadtek.com/3d_graphic/winfast_a380_ultratdh_myvivo_1.html)
Audigy 2 ZS (http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=14&product=4915) w/Klipsch (http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=712) Promedia ULTRA 5.1's
1 40GB (Page File and C:Core) \ 2x20GB RAID 0@40G(D:Windows, Programs) \ 2x40GB RAID 0@80GB(Games) \ 2x120GB RAID 0@240GB(STUFF) \ 1x200GB (Movies) \ 1x200GB Serial ATA(MP3's)
2x 21" Monitors, 1 Dell Trinitron w/KV switch and 1 reg
Saitek X-45 (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/x45.htm) Joystick
M$ Sidewinder FF Wheel (http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/sidewinder/FFB.asp)