How will Far Cry make use of the NV40 shader model 3.0?

[oeqvist]

Help me out Crytek team? What do this technical mumbo jumbo do and how will it affect Far Crys visuals/performance?

[oeqvist]

Help me out Crytek team? What do this technical mumbo jumbo do and how will it affect Far Crys visuals/performance?

[Stereophile]

TTT

[Madmccoy]

The shader 3.0 revisions allow for more code to be used in the hardware of the shader (greater than 65,000 lines now), which means more things can be done GPU-side, which means significant increases in performance, which means they can use that extra performance to squeeze out more beautiful visuals, because the GPU is running the show now!

Clear?

[Stereophile]

Well I know the theoretical advantages. I was hoping for a specific response maybe from a developer. i.e. The reflection off this substance on this level will have these effects with sm 3.0 that aren't there with 2.0 or whatever.

The nvidia nv40 launch party yesterday supposedly had video footage of sm 3.0 in Far Cry. I've been looking for a movie of it. The people that saw it were very impressed.

[thedudemanguy]

there's some movies out, go to this page:

http://www.evilmofo.com/images/geforcelan/

movies are in red print



seems like real time shadows outdoors/trees and stuff, and a more advanced bump mapping (not really sure what it is, the guy who originally identified it as displacement mapping now realizes as you will from the videos that the crytek guy and the nvidia guy aren't really making it clear...)

but I guess none of us will be able to see this without dx 9.0c released, new hardware released, and a patch with the content released so it could be awhile

[GeForce25]

>>The shader 3.0 revisions allow for more code to be used in the hardware of the shader (greater than 65,000 lines now),<<

Which all boils down to "it will do nothing at all."

Since the act of writing code that would use this would lock the game out of 99% of hardware.

Another useless hardware feature that will not be used for 5 or more years.

[Stereophile]

Thanks thedudemanguy.

Geforce, by the end of the year there will be 3 times as many games out with sm 3.0 support then there is support for 2.0 right now. lol

[thedudemanguy]

actually I discovered the effect it's using for bump:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9808

and you don't need ps 3.0. i'm running an ogl demo of it right now.

[toelessfoot]

http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040414/feforce_6800-46.html

not lookin good

[I_Am_Tron]

9800 XT seems to kick *** in PS 2.0

9800 XT still wins in image quality for the most part.

-----------------------------
AMD Athlon 64 3200+
ATI Radeon 9800 XT 256MB
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Now Playing:
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[heeyt]

WOW...

^^Yeah, click the site that toelessfoot posted.^^

This looks bad for Nvidia. That image quality is ****ty, looks like ATI will win once again, because think about it, if the Radeon 9800 XT had brought down its quality that low, it could probably produce frame rates close or on par with that of the Geforce 6800 Ultra. And the 6800 Ultra is a generation above the 9800XT! Uh oh for Nvidia. The Radeon X800 XT is going to have comparable frame rates with the 6800 Ultra, and way better shader quality!

If shader quality doesn't improve for Nvidia, I predict this will be their generation of cards, and Nvidia will move to soley chipsets. That is bad news for everyone, except ATI, because now ATI can jack up prices unchallenged.

We are all f*cked! Nvidia, you better pull thru with better image quality!!!

[Warbie]

We'll have to wait and see - there's a good chance the image quality will be fixed.

There's no way the 9800 XT could compete .... even if it was displaying the same image quality. While IQ is definately important, so is frame rate. I find even 40 FPS seems very choppy in Far Cry (as there's so much detail) and would rather have a frame rate that never dropped below 60 with slightly worse IQ (choppy = bad gameplay ...... regardless of how nice the game looks)

)C.Warbie
#kaizen-clan
Ha-Dou-Ken

[MT_UnclePhil]

But the 9800xt is a generation BELOW nvidias card...


cant wait for the reviews on ati's new cards...oh man they have to be soon (if they have done better), since nvidia came out with their's

http://markstower.hypermart.net/uncle_banner3.jpg
Death From Above.

[sithlord1234]

ATI's next chipset should come out around the 26th.

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2004/04/07&pages=A7&seq=43

[Jabroni_619]

lol, some of you guys are funny... The IQ of the nvidia card was virtually identical in every way to the XT except in one shader instances. This is from a SAMPLE card with BETA drivers too. It is WAYYYYYY to soon say "looks like ATI will win again" Thats about the most ignorant thing i've heard. I gaurantee you that these problems will be resolved.

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[jarin26]

The 6800 is looking very very good atm


Ihope the ATI card that comes out is smoking...

atm 6800 beats everything bar none, but we are comparing two different generations

- Jarin

[MT_UnclePhil]

...and yes we are comparing 2 different generations.

have any of you seen the unreal 3 tech demo?

all i can say is its some crazy stuff?

http://www.madshrimps.be/gotowebnews.php?id=3359

whoever is saying that graphics cards have technology that isnt being used or is worthless is wrong. look at that friggin video.

http://markstower.hypermart.net/uncle_banner3.jpg
Death From Above.

[Mocib]

MT_UnclePhil,

That Unreal 3 tech demo link you posted was from the year 2002. It's from the GeForce FX launch event.

Below is a link for the new technology demonstration that was shown yesterday.

http://www.digital-deity.net/files/unreal3_0002.wmv

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[DannyDiplo]

You might want to check out the Prototype engine that does a lot of the displacement mapping techniques :

http://www.powerrender.com/prx/gallery.htm

[oeqvist]

I would still like to hear from Crytek how they will implement the Shader model 3.0 in Far Cry. Itâ´s quite obvious they arenâ´t in there as itâ´s now.

I think it might just be a marketing ploy like the AGP 8x Geforce 4 ti-4200 cards. I mean there must be a reason why ATI removed it from their design really. I mean ATI has had superior shader performance since the 8500 so they should know what they are doing really.

[GordieFreeman]

Remember, this is an entirely new card that games are not yet optimised for. It also uses pre-mature drivers. Just wait until new games come out to be more optimised for this card.

[Mocib]

Shader Model 3.0 pics

http://www.pcperspective.com/images/reviews//FarCry_after1_small.jpg

http://www.pcperspective.com/images/reviews//FarCrafter3_small.jpg

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[Wildhound3k]

Wow, if ATI really are skipping PS 3.0, then it's irrelevant whether they can match nVidia for speed because they'll fall behind visually.

[DIZI40]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oeqvist:
I would still like to hear from Crytek how they will implement the Shader model 3.0 in Far Cry. Itâ´s quite obvious they arenâ´t in there as itâ´s now.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard on one TechTV show that Crytek is going to implement Shader model 3.0 in the up-coming patch

[GordieFreeman]

Was it Tech Live? They had a whole feature on the NV40.

[DIZI40]

no it was on The Screen Savers

http://www.gamers-depot.com/events/nvidia/6800_launch/002.htm

read the first paragraph of that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

[ZeRo__1]

Hi guys. I was lucky enough to be at the NV40 launch event so i can clear some of this stuff up. I forgot the guys name, but the ceo or president of Crytek spoke briefly about the shader model 3.0 addition to Far Cry. It will be included in a new patch or separately as a Shader Model 3.0 mod. Only the geforce 6 series cards will be able to take advantage of the new visual enhancements. The two biggest differences are the displacement mapping effects used in the textures, and improved shadows (i think he called them soft shadows) They had real time renders of this in action and it looked amazing. The first demo they showed us was in the fort level on the main beach at sunset. They basically replaced all of the sand with a texture that looked like individual pebbles and stones with diplacement mapping. The stones near the waters edge looked wet and reflected a certain amount of light. It really looked sweet. Plus the shadows look really natural (not really sure how to describe them, but the difference was very noticeable). I don't know if they were using any fsaa or af but the resolution was at least 12x10 and it was super smooth. You can see the screenshots from the second demo above. You can see the use of displacement mapping in the side of the walls where the rocks are sticking out...those aren't polygons, just textures. This means more eye candy with less penalty on performance. I got to play the first level of far cry on an amd 64 demo machine with the 6800 ultra in it. I played the training level at 16x12 no fsaa or af and was getting an average of 120fps (80-180) indoors. I know that this looks higher than the benchmarks that showed up today, but i'm not kidding. More than 100 frames consistently! Perhaps they were using more recent drivers at the launch event? I'm not a fan boy of ATI or Nvidia. I'm dissapointed to hear that ATI won't be including sm 3.0 in their x800 cards. People are saying that games won't use sm 3.0? The guy from crytek said it only took them 3 weeks to complete the sm 3.0 update for farcry so that should tell you something. The shader issues from toms review are most likely due to the beta drivers, but only time will tell. I really think Nvidia has tried hard to give us gamers a great card this time considering all of the image quality improvements. They certainly treated us well at the launch event =). Oh, by the way...i don't put as much weight on futuremark scores as i used to, but those of you who like that stuff should know that a performance geared system with a 3.4 northwood and a 6800 ultra can get you up to 14500 2k3 marks... we all saw the screen shots to prove it and nearly decided to hold the ceo of nvidia hostage until we all had our own shiny new 6800 ultras...funny what can happen to a crowd of gamers who have been drinking an endless supply of bawls all day

[Mocib]

Thanks ZeRo__1!

That was a good and informative little report, whoa http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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[DannyDiplo]

Cheers Zero http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I wonder, though, have both ATI and Nvidia lied to us? I'm a certain that ATI described the Radeon 9800 as COMPLETELY supporting DX9, and I'm sure Nvidia said the same for the 5900FX card. However, since PX3.0 seems to be part of the DX9 spec and these cards clearly don't support it, how can they have claimed that?

[Mocib]

They said that Shader Model 3.0 support comes with the upcoming DirectX 9.0c version.

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[makerstrom]

PS3.0 is only supported in DX9c, the current version is 9b. Oh - thanks for the info Zero.

I'm a ATI fanboy now but I must say that the initial reviews of NV40 makes me wanna buy one of those cards. I haven't read a single negative review so far. It is the DX9 games that get the highest performance bump while DX8 games shows nothing impressive.

I'll wait and see what ATI comes up with(with R420. I've also heard the pricing is good, 400 USD.

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[jonesey2k]

Maybe the R420 will have a new type of pixel shader or something. They have been very quiet which lead me to belive they have a suprise in store for us!

[DIZI40]

ATI better have something special ready if they intend to compete with Nvidia and PS3.0

Anybody know when DX9c is coming out?

[Madmccoy]

GeForce25: Don't kid yourself.

---

Can someone throw me a link that confirms ATI will not have Shader 3.0 support in the next generation of cards? I'm sorry, but DirectX 9.0c support is gonna be a must when people start taking advantage of the technology to do dynamic and real-time vertex creation/destruction in their games GPU-side. Destructable enviroments/objects without having to model seperate breakpoints and debris?* Hell yeah.


*Think voxels, but apply that technology to polygons with the new-found ability to dynamically create/destroy vertexes without having to do all the time-consuming calculations CPU-side.

[thedudemanguy]

I'm also a bit skeptical that ati won't support 3.0 any time soon. it's not that big a deal, so why wouldn't they? if they don't then I'll probably join camp nvidia for my next card, but I highly doubt they'll just sit on 2.0, that's not like ati at all.

[thedudemanguy]

ok, this is the ONLY thing I can find on the web about the next ati card not having 3.0. it's from feb, and sources a babelfish translation of a site's rumor article, sounds like a great source, lol

"Ok, I've just read a Babelfish translation of 3DCenter article, so forgive if I talk like the fish Diskussionstuff wird meat cleaver ajax. The article's key point is that ATI's next-generation chip will not support the Pixel Shader 3.0 specification. In fact, 3DCenter says, "We can confirm free of doubts that the ATi R420-Chip will not offer Shader 3,0 support." That sounds fairly certain, no? They outline a very convincing argument based on the rumored history of the R400 project. For those who haven't heard, the rumor is that ATI started work on a next-gen chip, then canceled it and decided to do an upgrade to the R360 (found in the Radeon 9800XT) instead. Hence, R420 will be an updated R360 with a die shrink and more transistors. Those extra transistors are likely to be dedicated to additional vertex shader units on the chip, improved pixel shaders, and err.. other stuff. 3DCenter thinks maybe additional texture units per pixel pipe could be in the works."

I'll just wait a week and find out Ati's plans for myself, but I'm highly skeptical that they suddenly plan to be uncompetitive

[Stereophile]

Thanks for the pictures.
I'm definitely upgrading to a geforce 6 card.

I'm vitually 100% certain R420 won't support sm 3.0
Maybe they are putting most of their efforts into R500 to get it out this fall ?

[Jabroni_619]

THe 6800U is very impressive indeed. However i'm still happy with my 9800Pro, so i'll be here and Camp ATI for a while still. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-EPoX 8RDA+ (nForce2)
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[MattUSMC67]

Here is an article from Xbit Labs about ATI R420 and PS 3.0 http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040310205723.html

The passage is intense, but if u complete the journey you will find your destiney among the worlds greatest warriors... The Few, The Proud, The Marines
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[wures7]

Didn't ATI say that their next generation card won't even hit 10,000 in 3DMARK03, won't have PS 3.0 support, and lesser amout of pipelines than the 6800 Ultra? Can someone else hear this too?

[ZeRo__1]

There seems to be an uncontested claim from a few different sites regarding the lack of SM 3.0 support for the R420. Originally it was thought that the R420 would only have 12 pipelines, but an article at www.anandtech.com (http://www.anandtech.com) confirmed that their high-end R420 will have a full 16 pipeline architechture. As far as the 3dmark 2k3 scores...i wouldn't worry about that too much. I have read lots of rumors that say anything like "less than 10000" to "slightly less than the NV40 scores". I have no doubt that ATI will be competitive with performance and image quality...its the features like SM 3.0 that we really won't know about until the NDA's expire and they paper launch the R420. By the way, i love my current visiontek 9800 pro (435/375 on air)

[Mocib]

Of course we do not know exactly how Far Cry SM3.0 mod will make use of the Shader Model 3.0 features but here's the official word about the differences between SM2.0 and SM3.0.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/partners/shadermodel30_NVIDIA.mspx

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[oeqvist]

Yes I have to say it looks like nVidia is definiatly back on the race. I would love when they get the driver out that removes all optimizations on Far Cry and other games. As itâ´s now the 9800XT smokes the NV40 IQ wise in Far Cry obviously but hopefully that wonâ´t take too long to fix and the NV40 isnâ´t even out yet.

I have a feeling that itâ´s the X800XT that is going to compete against the NV40. Hopefully I will be able to hold out with my 9800 PRO when both the X800XT and NV40 are out. prices should have gone down a bit back then hopefully and then I will know what is the best deal.

ATI has said since long that they wonâ´t support SM 3.0 but that doesnâ´t mean itâ´s inferior in my eyes. Look at the R300. Much less transistors than the NV30. Lower dx 9 spec and such but itâ´s shader performance was superior as well as the 8500 before it. So if any company knows shaders you would think ATI would.

I am still looking forward to the R420. Regardless if the R420 beats the NV40 or not the NV40 surely canâ´t classify as another failure for nvidia though.

[CTWShark]

Thank you for that link, Mocib. Very informative! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Impactor]

did u see the New unreal engine running PS3.0?

Holy ****!

http://www.scifience.net/unreal3_0002.wmv

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