Tactics questions answered...for FREE!

[eaglestohercs]

And hey, it might even help you with LOMAC. but then again...maybe not.

Anyway, I noticed in another thread that we started getting off on a tangent about F-15 tactics...so here's a thread for it!

BVR, WVR, merge, post-merge, recommit...bring it on!

[eaglestohercs]

And hey, it might even help you with LOMAC. but then again...maybe not.

Anyway, I noticed in another thread that we started getting off on a tangent about F-15 tactics...so here's a thread for it!

BVR, WVR, merge, post-merge, recommit...bring it on!

[falcon_120]

Well this might sounds stupid but I Will ask it cause I needsome tips in BVR tactics.
Lets say you are in the eagle with 3 wigmen and the awacs tells you that there are 2 groups of 2 flankers at 80 miles medium altitude and hot.What tactics would you use?(Separate in 2 groups of 2,stay in close formation to seem like only 1 fighter,climb,etc...)

[Pilotasso]

I was wondering...before the times of the AMRAAM the F-15 couldnt shoot at multiple targets could they? the F14 was the only one carrying active BVR missiles.

I figured out a tactic to fend off a superior number of attacking fighters, here it goes:

4 VS many:

2 lead the counter attack in pincer manuever and then 2 others stay say 15 miles behind, close together.
Both the front eagles and the flanker shoot at each other, but the main purpose of the leading f-15's is to drive the flankers attentions to fend off the missiles shot at them.

If the eagles are fired back they should turn back and deny R27's range. at that moment the rear eagles takes their place to attack the flankers that may still be occupied.

This way you could cover the eagles that are dodging BVR missiles at the sime time the flankers are forced to break lock and become defensive themselves, they would then be vulnerable to the rear F15 attacks.

Is this a good tactic? What more do ya have?

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[falcon_120]

Bump

[eaglestohercs]

Falcon, are the Flankers side-side or lead-trail?

And are they carrying AA-10a or c?

[eaglestohercs]

Well...I'll cover both. Remember there's no short answer...every tactic is dictated by what the bad guy does.

Ok...so you have 2 groups of 2 Flankers (let's take worst case...with Chucks), and they're side-side. BRACKET! It's the easiest and most effective maneuver there is for a side-side setup. 1/2 go one way, 3/4 go the other way...both to the outside of your side in the formation...don't do any crazy crossover stuff, and don't get more than about 5-6 miles apart.
At ~50 miles, get supersonic and start a climb into the low 30s, at ~40 miles, lock your respective side of YOUR Flanker group. You should have a good shot if they're still coming hot, so take the shot (AIM-120), go to TWS, and turn hard (with chaff) to the outside of the Flanker formation to put YOUR target at about the 45-degree point on the VSD. At this point, start screaming downhill and pull your power to idle. Don't get slow, stay up around 350-400. If you get any breakouts in TWS and have a shot, take it...don't go turning back into the Flankers at close ranges. If you don't have a shot...target your wingman to the other Flanker (which he should already be doing). (3/4 should be doing the exact same thing with their group)
Snip the missiles when they go active, and get out. When I say 'out' I mean a max performance (full AB with chaff) descending turn to put the Flankers directly at your six. Get out no later than ~20 miles.

What if: The Flanker maneuvers and your missile hasn't gone active yet, and your spiked. GET OUT NLT ~20 MILES. FORGET THE MISSILE...save your life and try again. Raytheon will make more.

What if: same thing, but you're not spiked? Go in until the missile's active, THEN GET OUT! NLT ~15. So you have a 5 mile leash.

What if: The missile HAS gone active AND your spiked... SHOOT AGAIN...it should go active pretty quickly...THEN GET OUT! We don't take missiles on incentive rides.

[eaglestohercs]

Really similar for the lead-trail setup, except that 1/2 stay hot and 3/4 float to the outside to "stiffarm" the lead group of Flankers. Always put max effort into the closest group, as they're your biggest threat.

1/2 attack the Flankers as I described above, and if the trail group is <10 miles from the lead group, 3/4 can attack them at the same time. If they're >10 miles...just monitor them. Either way, do not get closer than ~20 miles from the LEAD group. Go out by ~20 (all 4).
If the trail group is still alive, get all 4 eagles back together, get low and fast. Park the throttles north by northwest and go to autoguns to sanitize the airspace that's now in front of you. With ~15-20 miles separation, slew a/g to the inside of your turn, climb back into the teens/20s...DON'T bleed airspeed...and recommit (hard turn) on the trail group. Now all 4 eagles can attack one group. 3/4 should be searching for other bandits, 1/2 should commit.

[eaglestohercs]

Pilotasso... you're AMRAAM question is correct.

As far as your tactic...it's a really solid starting point. For multiple bad guys vs a 4-ship of eagles...you want to start a grinder. At ~50 miles, 3/4 should go out and get low and fast. As 1/2 reach ~30 miles (from the bad guys), 3/4 should start to turn back hot. At ~20, 1/2 go out, 3/4 are already targeting the lead group. That keeps repeating until everyone's dead. If the range closes down on ya...ie, you can't stay ~20 miles away, get all 4 eagles out, get low and fast...and recommit as above...getting no closer than ~15 miles.

[This message was edited by eaglestohercs on Sun May 09 2004 at 03:27 PM.]

[eaglestohercs]

Rule #1... it ALWAYS depends...

BTW, Eagles never fly anything other than a WALL with ~1-2 miles between each fighter. Leave the funky formations to the bad guys.

[This message was edited by eaglestohercs on Sun May 09 2004 at 05:02 PM.]

[Rapier71]

Mission setup: 2xF-15Cs vs. 2xSu-33, 2xSu-27 and 3xSu-30.

The -33s and -27s are armed with Alamo Cs and Ds, the 30s have the Chucks and the R-77. All Flankers have close in Archers.

I'm loaded with six Slammers and two heaters, and one aux tank.

My flight (F-15s) starts off at 30 k ft...the Flankers around 12-20 k at >50 miles. Here's what I do...tell me if I should do anything different to maximize kills before getting shot down (I always get shot down):

Because of LOMAC AIM-120 problems, I'm only able to target two aircraft at a time in this scenario (don't ask why...every missile after the PDT in TWS goes stupid - you'll see what I mean). I lock up the targets with TWS and climb to 40 k, full burner, and cut my wingman loose almost immediately. He'll usually shoot first, a Slammer at ~25 nm. My own cue doesn't show up until 20 nm, and here's the tricky part. Due to LOMAC's problems, I fire one Slammer at the PDT and have to lock the SDT in STT mode, and shoot that.

Alamo-Cs are launched at the same time my Slammers go off the rail, at me and wingie. Music on. Put the targets at the edge of the gimbal limits, until bandits are at ~15 nm. Snip, break hard and low, Mach ~1.2 extension away from fight. Level off at 200 ft, bandits at 7:30. To cover, I give wingman 'Attack my target' command and he usually ripples off another AIM-120 before being smacked out of the sky.

Hiding in the notch and ground clutter as much as I can, I turn back to the three or four remaining bandits. Here's where I always get killed. Since I can't exactly out-run the computer bandits, I'm forced to re-engage. By now, the MiGs are at ~10 nm, and usually, I'll ripple off two AMRAAMs through one of the acq modes before three or more missiles of varying types rip my jet to shreds. I can usually dodge the first one or two, but the next couple, Adders or Alamos fired within 8 miles, always kill me in my energy-less state.

Fortunately, my kamikaze AIM-120s usually find their mark.

Still trying to pass this. Closest is one aircraft remaining before I get killed.

[eaglestohercs]

what formation and altitude are the bandits set up in? ie, range, azimuth, champagne, vic, etc...

And that's a pretty nasty problem with the TWS. I honestly didn't have enough time to play around with all the gadgets in LOMAC...so I'm not sure where the limitations lie.

Just to check a few things:

-40K sounds way too high for bandits at that altitude. I'd accelerate straight ahead.
-Make sure you're centering the steering dot in the HUD when you shoot.
-Can you step back and forth between targets in TWS or do you lose TWS once you step to the SDT?
-I wouldn't send your wingy in alone and unafraid. Keep him with you. Give them more targets to worry about, and you'll have more missiles to work with.
-Don't go in with a spike...
-Punch that tank off.

[Rapier71]

Um, the bandits just go straight for me and wingie...so for formation: RANDOM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Altitude for the seven aircraft is between 12 and 20 thousand (k for thousand) feet.

Champagne? Vic? Don't really know what you're referring to...umm, head on?

The TWS thingie only happens in this mission. All AIM-120s fired subsequent of the PDF goes completely stupid and just flies a ballistic course to the ground.

EDIT: Yes, punch off that tank. I usually forget about that because I figure I could use the fuel for the M1.2 extension.

Steering dot inside the ASE circle.

I always thought the higher the altitude, the better? Plus they have those long-reaching Alamos...

If it was a human pilot, I would, but the AI in the game is so stupid that seriously, this is the only way. Even if I tell him to rejoin, he will break off to dodge missiles once they close within 10 miles, so he won't be smart and simply out-run them. I do tell him to split low so that enemy missiles have less range, and maybe give him so more breathing room.

[eaglestohercs]

Ok...kinda tough to explain formations without a picture. What do you see on the VSD as far as the bandits go? (I mean initially...do they look like a straight horizontal/vertical line, triangle, "V", etc.?)

What shows up on the VSD at "MUSIC"?

http://us.thrustmaster.com/news/images/batofbritain/vic-formation.gif
This would be a vic...just flip it upside-down on your radar so it looks like a "V".
Champagne would be the opposite. (looks like this picture on your VSD...only coming towards you)

-Don't just have the dot in the ASE circle...try to center it.
-higher is better up to a point...you wanna keep a max of about 20K between you and the bad guy.

[Rapier71]

Music on is jamming, right? If it is, the answer to your question is...there is no true VSD, unless you count the radar.

When I first pick them up, the bricks are more or less like this:

(bricks)__*_**
(bricks)___*

At 25 miles, they are more like this

(bricks)_________*
(bricks)________*
(bricks)_______**_*

...on the VSD, where the stars are bandits

[eaglestohercs]

Does LOMAC give you any indication of what type of jamming?

Ok...if you're shooting at 20 and #2 at 25...make sure you're BOTH targeted into that first group. ie, the ** *

lol...the VSD is the radar.

[Rapier71]

Nope...just on or off.

The problem is, I can't tell which jet he's shooting. And in the end, it doesn't really matter...my wingman won't double target, and my radar is botched. So it's three or four of our missiles vs. seven of theirs...it doesn't matter if our missiles all kill their targets, cause those three Alamos and Adders will still force us on the defensive.

Whoops...thought you were talking about the HSD, which doesn't exist in LOMAC.

[eaglestohercs]

ok...fair enough. Sounds like terrain bounce jamming... it makes your missile think there's a jet underground. Hence the ballistic lob towards earth...

If you're on the right side, target that single group. If #2 on the left, let the AI worry about shooting 2 bandits. That's his group anyway...

Then do what you were saying earlier with throwing him to the edge of the VSD...DON'T FORGET CHAFF!
IS your jamming on when you're doing this?

[This message was edited by eaglestohercs on Sun May 09 2004 at 06:06 PM.]

[Rapier71]

You're thinking too highly of the sim, man. If there was jamming, my radar wouldn't even pick them up until 9 miles currently in LOMAC (huge flaw in game).

Burn through range right now is 9 miles...afte the V1.02 patch it will supposedly be around 25-30 miles.

The Flankers didn't have jamming...I was referring to my own http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

EDIT: Chaff closer in, right? Cause it would be waste to spoof a missile that's going to fall short anyway - seems like a waste...

[eaglestohercs]

It's all so clear to me now... you'll forgive me, I was getting excited.

Ok then...lemme get this straight with the TWS issue. You shoot at the PDT, step to the SDT, shoot, and the misssile goes stupid?

One other thing...it may have just been the way you wrotei t, but get your jamming on early...before they start shooting if it's not already.

Chaff when you crank, and when you go out. Crank is putting him to the edge of the VSD.

[Rapier71]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eaglestohercs:
It's all so clear to me now... you'll forgive me, I was getting excited.

Ok then...lemme get this straight with the TWS issue. You shoot at the PDT, step to the SDT, shoot, and the misssile goes stupid?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is correct. And the missile for the next SDT, and the next one. The only way to avoid this is if when the radar steps to the first SDT, I STT it, and shoot. Then both missiles fly away fine (the first one may not hit, since it was cut loose a little too early).

Again, I only see this happen in this case. Makes things more challenging, though, which is good.

So, two AMRAAMs max for first volley. With Alamos inbound, and me at 500 kts, there isn't enough time to acquire a third or fourth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Chaff whe you crank, and when you go out. Crank is that putting him to the edge of the VSD. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My crank only lasts two seconds before I extend away from enemy missiles. They will fall short on the first and second volleys. Chaff anyway?

[eaglestohercs]

That's an easy fix...STT the first guy, shoot, then go to TWS. Both missiles should track fine.

[Rapier71]

Thanks for the tips, will try it out tomorrow. Have to go out for a while now...so later.

[eaglestohercs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rapier71:
My crank only lasts two seconds before I extend away from enemy missiles. They will fall short on the first and second volleys. Chaff anyway?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn right chaff anyway...you're trying to defeat the missile AND break their lock.

No prob...good luck, the free world is depending on you.

[Cobra412th]

I've flown mainly WWII sims but I have read Robert L. Shaws book Air Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering which covers alot of the modern fights. My problem is flying with AI takes too much to setup properly. Seeing as the AI won't always adjust as you would expect.

I'd actually like to fly with a real life person oppose to an AI wingman. One tactic I know that worked really well was the hook. Considering it works great with WWII sims I'd like to see it used in a modern sim. I've studied that book for quite awhile now it just seems I can't find to many folks willing to put it to use.

[eaglestohercs]

Never did the hook...only when I was flying as 'red air'.

[Cobra412th]

Considering there is so many tactical options when it comes to the merge is using the line abreast or trail formation the most common?

I did read somewhere that on the merge if in trail it's actually a good option to go nose over create vertical seperation while the flight leader goes in for a FQ merge. The bogeys would be more concerned about the FQ merge that the aircraft that is creating vertical seperation gets lost. Is this a wise tactic to use.

[eaglestohercs]

when it comes to the merge, either line abreast or "shooter-eye" is the most common. If the target's already ID'ed as hostile, it's line abreast -&gt; merge --&gt; kill.

[Cobra412th]

What do you mean by shooters eye. I've never read about that before or even heard of it. Is that at the flight leads low 6 in tight formation?

[eaglestohercs]

lol...I need a friggin white board to explain this stuff.

Lessee...shooter eye is basically for ACM engagements that require a VID. The "eye" goes in first to ID the target...the "shooter" keeps an eye on the merge and maneuvers to a position to kill at the "hostile' call.

It's basically line abreast that transitions to lead-trail...ish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cobra412th:
I did read somewhere that on the merge if in trail it's actually a good option to go nose over create vertical seperation while the flight leader goes in for a FQ merge. The bogeys would be more concerned about the FQ merge that the aircraft that is creating vertical seperation gets lost. Is this a wise tactic to use.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are so many different scenarios for ACM maneuvering I'd need 1/2 a day to talk about them.
But you're right...2 jets coming in from 2 different directions is usualy a good thing.

[This message was edited by eaglestohercs on Sun May 09 2004 at 07:03 PM.]

[Cobra412th]

Okay in basic terms it's a modified loose deuce with one probing and one standing off getting into and advantageous position.

I can completely understand there is alot of scenarios that could be played out. Thats kinda why I bought that book to get a decent idea of the most common tactics used.

[eaglestohercs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cobra412th:
Okay in basic terms it's a modified loose deuce <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm...yeah...sure. What you said.

[Cobra412th]

lol..See this is why I like WWII sims. None of this junk worrying about AAM and extended range for merges. It's all about ACM and gettings your guns around. I know I don't have to worry about something screaming at me during the merge. It's who knows their plane better and can fly it to the edge.

Well I kinda have to worry seeing how many folks like the FQ approach and don't even wanna test their luck by cold merging and flying. And the ranges and closure rates are not nearly as high as these.

[eaglestohercs]

I can bfm the hell out of Crimson Skies on Xbox...

[Cobra412th]

lmao..I play Aces High myself. It's a rather fun sim and with over 600+ online in one arena fighting is pretty amazing. Now only if the majority would use tactics and stradegies opposed to the mass chaos you see most of the time.

[eaglestohercs]

I'm not a big fan of the sims anymore cause I can't see anything...

[KillerCharlie]

Okay, here's a good question on strategy. What do you do when...

you have to go on a ferry flight that takes forever? Don't you get extremely bored and cramped sitting in a cockpit like that for 10+ hours? I'd go crazy if I had to do that.

[eaglestohercs]

Bored...yes. Cramped...not really. lol...the Eagle's the plush fighter.

Some of the Mud Hen guys play interflight trivial pursuit with some help from their WSOs.

[KillerCharlie]

so what do you do the entire time?

[eaglestohercs]

I actually don't know... I've never gone across the pond. My longest flight was a 2.2 from Oregon to Arizona.

[Cobra412th]

Eagles the viewing distance is rather good in Aces High. You can see out to 10+ nmi with a clear sky. I'd even say on average you'd see out to atleast 13 depending on the planes size and paint scheme. Since most planes have a dark paint job they are rather easy to pick up. Now following that same plane during a furball is a different story since each side can fly all the planes.

They do have icons to differentiate friend from foe though. In some arenas the friend/foe icon comes up at 6k out at altitude and 3k on the deck. And in other arenas it's 3k across the board so no true VID is required.

The special events arena is more like real life to some respect. It doesn't have that rush to the fight and get killed aspect of gaming. Everyone flies as if it were they only flight. Engagement tactics are preplanned to an extent. Wingmen are designated and AORs are setup. They do have a slightly overmodeled early warning radar system setup. But all in all it's actually really fun. I've caught myself jumping out of my seat many times while in a fight or being suprised by one.

Me and some other guy were using the clouds for cover and just happenend to come into the clear at the exact same time from to seperate cloud banks. We were nose on nose and both freaked letting off rounds and doing evasives at the same time so as to not collide.

I tend to find the WWII sims to be more appealing. It's nice to have that feeling of accomplishment when you go one on one with guns only and come out alive. And even then if it was a good fight by both with alot of high deflection and snap shots and you still die it's still fun.

[eaglestohercs]

I mean more the fact that you can't see 360 degrees. I know there's the view buttons and all, but it takes too many brain bytes rather than just looking around.

I'm a fan of guns only, too.

[Cobra412th]

Actually you can see around quite a bit but it takes another device to do so. You can use the buttons and pan around but the best thing I've found is Track IR for a decent price. It enables you to move around naturally in the cockpit with only slight movements of your head. Aces High 2 is going to implement this in their code from what I understand. For some it can get ya sick though cause they are so use to the buttons to move their view around. I know it's hard to get use to at first but it's well worth it in the end.

[Pilotasso]

a friend of mine got track IR to work on his feet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That way he doesnt have to twist the head and turn the eyes to keep watching the screen. if he want to center the view he just rests the foot on a calibrated (height) pad.

Clever aint it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

------------------------------------
No money, No wife, No car, no Job... NO PROBLEMS!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

System specs:
T-bird 1200@1300MHZ
512MB 133SDRAM
Soltek sl-75 JV motherborad (Via K133 chip)
G4-ti4200 w/64MB DDR
Soundblaster Live! (the original one!)
Western digital 20MB HD drive
WinXP


http://www.falcoes.net/patch2.jpg

[steps34]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pilotasso:
a friend of mine got track IR to work on his feet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That way he doesnt have to twist the head and turn the eyes to keep watching the screen. if he want to center the view he just rests the foot on a calibrated (height) pad.

Clever aint it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[QUOTE]

Not as intuitive as moving your head. I find
TrackIr (properly tuned TrackIr, I should say)
very helpfull. Can`t wait for TrackIr3.
...Well, I`d prefer SimEye from Kaiser Electro-
Optics, but at $60k a piece...

[Pilotasso]

its just a question of getting used to it. dint you got confused to use the down arrow key for pitch in the good old times? same thing here...and no head aches! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

------------------------------------
No money, No wife, No car, no Job... NO PROBLEMS!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

System specs:
T-bird 1200@1300MHZ
512MB 133SDRAM
Soltek sl-75 JV motherborad (Via K133 chip)
G4-ti4200 w/64MB DDR
Soundblaster Live! (the original one!)
Western digital 20MB HD drive
WinXP


http://www.falcoes.net/patch2.jpg