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View Full Version : Losing Control In MP (long read)



The_Lurker
04-21-2004, 04:06 AM
Most important rule that Ubi broke when making this game (Specifically the MP)- once a player loses control of the game (Note: Merc sleeping, Merc getting grabbed, Spy getting tasered and so on) they lose interest in the game (in my opinion) it only proves to raise the irritation level.

To draw a comparison, Prince of Persia was GREAT, and I think one of the MAIN reasons why it was great was the fact that throughout the entire game it felt like I was in control of my character. If I was about to fall off the edge of the cliff I could simply rewind time and do the jump over again... very few retry screens, reloading of level, and all that other junk. A very streamlined (a word game companies should swear by) game that I have much respect for. Now I'm not saying Splinter need go that way (how ridiculous would time control be in Splinter Cell!) but I do believe that they need to get rid of, or at the very least modify, how players seem to "lose control" in MP.

Now if there was frickin' button that would make me wake up faster, I'd be jamming that button so hard my keyboard would break. If there was a oportunity to counter the spy's grab move I'd try and perfect it to an art (or at least inflict damage WHEN grabbed). If, when tasered, I could at least turn my body around or vibrate my body out of the way, I WOULD! Because, at least this way it feels I'm contributing to the game.

Instead, I'm reduced to seeing a glimpse of a spy getting into position to mario me just as I black out and take a nap from his sticky cam... only to wake and have my life halved and take another frickin' nap, rinse repeat. Or conversely, to be tasered as a spy and be helpless to the oncoming barrage of burning hot death.

Oddly enough though, I can live with respawn times, because at least I knew it was my fault. I died because either I was a careless spy or mercenary (and when your dead at least you can see what your partner is doing, you know, something to look at while you wait). And please, don't draw a conclusion that losing control is a direct result of carelessness. If losing control wasn't there in the first place, we wouldn't be having this problem...

So, I guess what my beef is, is not the fact that my character dies, but because I seem to be helpless to prevent it.

I feel FEAR for gods sake. Fear of going anywhere as a merc... that's not how it should be... there seems to be role reversal going on here... As a mercenary my focus should be solely on guarding the objective, not my back. I should be the hunter, not the hunted.

But the SP part of the game has imparted preconceived notions to the MP. As Sam Fisher you are Death himself, exacting swift and brutal justice to the enemy and doing it all from the shadows.

In MP though, there are very specific OBJECTIVES that need to be completed... and wiping out the mercs is not one of them (or at least not how I THINK Ubi wanted to make the game).

So this may be why the majority of "whining" is coming from the merc players. Spies don't see "Sleeping. . ." on their screens ever.

For scenarios sake, let's say we removed the spy's ability completely to knock out the merc (neck snapping is still there, just not stunning and knock outs), and instead made the merc have a tear gas nade, that, when launched and exploded, could knock out and incapacitate the spy. How cool would it be for the spy to wake from his nap, only to be staring down the barrel of the mercs tasered rifle (gas,taser,gas,taser,dead). Not very fun, is it?

What is the answer then...? Honestly I don't know. But it is very obvious that something needs to be fixed to level the playing field. Removing/modifying the loss of control is a step in the right direction, I think.

Maybe if they had released the MP as a seperate package that was unrelated to SC (where things like grabbing, snapping necks, knocking out, stuns, and so on) was not a staple of the game, this might actually be fun to play. But rather, it's degraded into deathmatching, which is not what I think of when I hear the words "Splinter Cell Multiplayer."

Here's hoping things get fixed in the next patch, or at the very least, fixed in the next release of a Splinter Cell online game. Until then, I'll be finishing up the SP... Keeping a healthy distance away from MP for fear smashing my computer screen in, out of shear frustration.

The_Lurker
04-21-2004, 04:06 AM
Most important rule that Ubi broke when making this game (Specifically the MP)- once a player loses control of the game (Note: Merc sleeping, Merc getting grabbed, Spy getting tasered and so on) they lose interest in the game (in my opinion) it only proves to raise the irritation level.

To draw a comparison, Prince of Persia was GREAT, and I think one of the MAIN reasons why it was great was the fact that throughout the entire game it felt like I was in control of my character. If I was about to fall off the edge of the cliff I could simply rewind time and do the jump over again... very few retry screens, reloading of level, and all that other junk. A very streamlined (a word game companies should swear by) game that I have much respect for. Now I'm not saying Splinter need go that way (how ridiculous would time control be in Splinter Cell!) but I do believe that they need to get rid of, or at the very least modify, how players seem to "lose control" in MP.

Now if there was frickin' button that would make me wake up faster, I'd be jamming that button so hard my keyboard would break. If there was a oportunity to counter the spy's grab move I'd try and perfect it to an art (or at least inflict damage WHEN grabbed). If, when tasered, I could at least turn my body around or vibrate my body out of the way, I WOULD! Because, at least this way it feels I'm contributing to the game.

Instead, I'm reduced to seeing a glimpse of a spy getting into position to mario me just as I black out and take a nap from his sticky cam... only to wake and have my life halved and take another frickin' nap, rinse repeat. Or conversely, to be tasered as a spy and be helpless to the oncoming barrage of burning hot death.

Oddly enough though, I can live with respawn times, because at least I knew it was my fault. I died because either I was a careless spy or mercenary (and when your dead at least you can see what your partner is doing, you know, something to look at while you wait). And please, don't draw a conclusion that losing control is a direct result of carelessness. If losing control wasn't there in the first place, we wouldn't be having this problem...

So, I guess what my beef is, is not the fact that my character dies, but because I seem to be helpless to prevent it.

I feel FEAR for gods sake. Fear of going anywhere as a merc... that's not how it should be... there seems to be role reversal going on here... As a mercenary my focus should be solely on guarding the objective, not my back. I should be the hunter, not the hunted.

But the SP part of the game has imparted preconceived notions to the MP. As Sam Fisher you are Death himself, exacting swift and brutal justice to the enemy and doing it all from the shadows.

In MP though, there are very specific OBJECTIVES that need to be completed... and wiping out the mercs is not one of them (or at least not how I THINK Ubi wanted to make the game).

So this may be why the majority of "whining" is coming from the merc players. Spies don't see "Sleeping. . ." on their screens ever.

For scenarios sake, let's say we removed the spy's ability completely to knock out the merc (neck snapping is still there, just not stunning and knock outs), and instead made the merc have a tear gas nade, that, when launched and exploded, could knock out and incapacitate the spy. How cool would it be for the spy to wake from his nap, only to be staring down the barrel of the mercs tasered rifle (gas,taser,gas,taser,dead). Not very fun, is it?

What is the answer then...? Honestly I don't know. But it is very obvious that something needs to be fixed to level the playing field. Removing/modifying the loss of control is a step in the right direction, I think.

Maybe if they had released the MP as a seperate package that was unrelated to SC (where things like grabbing, snapping necks, knocking out, stuns, and so on) was not a staple of the game, this might actually be fun to play. But rather, it's degraded into deathmatching, which is not what I think of when I hear the words "Splinter Cell Multiplayer."

Here's hoping things get fixed in the next patch, or at the very least, fixed in the next release of a Splinter Cell online game. Until then, I'll be finishing up the SP... Keeping a healthy distance away from MP for fear smashing my computer screen in, out of shear frustration.

DisTurBeD_MuNkY
04-21-2004, 04:14 AM
Then have fun in SP. Seriously, you don't think its a spies job to kill mercenaries? Then you're wrong, just look in your instruction manual, it says victory conditions are "Neutralize all the ND133's or eliminate the mercenaries" for Neutralization, and for Sabotage "Neutralize the ND133's using your modems, or Neutralize the mercenaries"

Besides, what you posed is a little unfair, its often the case a Spy can't do his job unless he takes out a Mercenary, with 2 Mercenaries it isn't too hard to get to each objective fairly quickly, so if you take one out of the equation it becomes so much easier, and for example on the Hospital level, one mercenary can cover room 212 and 202 by simply lobbing grenades through the windows, thats hardly fair for spies, is it? removes the element of getting somewhere the Mercs aren't.

Besides, why are you complaining? I think its largely because you don't know the abilities well enough or are careless, a Mercenary can be woke up by his teammates, just press action when above him if hes down and he wakes up instantly. Also, spy cams are largely a part of carelessness too, not always, but a lot of it is.

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SwiftDragon47
04-21-2004, 04:20 AM
I agree totally, The_Lurker!

Di__head
04-21-2004, 04:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...a Mercenary can be woke up by his teammates...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

spys can even wake up the buddy by pressing action for example if taserd...

+ a good spy team always wins against mercs... just simply distract the merc with an alarm snare and neutrazlize...

DisTurBeD_MuNkY
04-21-2004, 04:33 AM
Yeah I know Spies can wake each other up, I just didn't mention it because its not quite so likely to be happening and I figured people might try it anyway if they knew the Merc one. Also, a Spy team doesn't always beat Mercs, I play on XBL and play against level 7 Spies at times and if I'm Merc I have more chance of winning (same with them). Alarm snares are only partially useful, cause a Mercenary can cover the place very well with his gadgets and won't necessarily fall for a simple alarm snare. For example, the alarm snare, if used to set off an alarm, will continuously repeat the alarm going off.. so Its not quite the same as a Spy being there.

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The_Lurker
04-21-2004, 04:34 AM
I disagree, there are multitude of other ways to get the objective without knocking out the mercenary.

AGAIN I state... My main beef isn't with the fact that mercs can die (I understand killing is a facet of the game) but because I am HELPLESS to prevent. I understand it's not complete helplessness, but the fact that I can do NOTHING as I sit there and wait to awake again is very frustrating only to be immediately knocked out again and again... once your knocked down once... its virtually over, except the spies seem to make special care to kill you in the longest way possible.

Calling for help is not an alternative, it leaves too many of the objectives open then, or, an even worse scenario, the both of us are stuck at the mercy of a single or group of spies.

You seemed to miss my point entirely... It's not the death factor, but the length at which it happens and the fact that I seem to be unable to prevent it. At least in Quake I can pick up and bigger gun that EVERYONE ELSE CAN PICK UP! Balance is a key in this game, and Ubi seems to have botched parts of it, and made excellent strides in other spots...

I've heard of the "techniques" but they hardly seem to work... I don't know, there are just some parts of this game that are completely off...

I think maybe the surest way to have a fun and entertaining match is to play with people who are like minded... whichis very hard to do.

Maybe if they had lobby or mode for deathmatchers and one for people who want a toned down spy? Again, like I said, I don't really know what the answer is, but something needs to be fixed...

DisTurBeD_MuNkY
04-21-2004, 04:43 AM
Calling for help is useful, it may leave another objective somewhat open, but thats life, the spy got the better of you. You aren't helpless, its not like they can always take you down with ease, if you're playing right you'll be harder to take down and possibly more trouble for them, just use a tazer, keep your back against the wall to the extent possible and shoot whilst tossing grenades.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also, Spies are leaving themselves exposed to attack if they try jump on you again, as if you shout "Need help in 202!" or something right as you go down, your teammate can come and kill the spy, and presumably if hes held things down well enough on his end, the other spy won't be in a position to take out his objective unless he was waiting right there for that opportunity.

I agree with you on the fact that a spy can jump on your head right as you get up, and I don't like that, its not good, cause at that point (and only that point) you are completely at their mercy, however you just need to try ensure that you don't find yourself in that position, or try to charge forward as soon as you get up (works for me sometimes).

About you saying its the helpnessness that bothers you, well, thats just a part of the game, because the Spies don't have lethal weapons and you do, and so their best way to combat yours is to either render you unconscious or to try and break your neck, both of which requires a fair bit of effort on the spies part.

Also, I realise that there are supposedly numerous different ways to do things than to take out a Mercenary, but hell, list them and I'll take note of that. In my experience, on levels such as Deftech Belew, it can be very hard to get an objective on say, Sabotage, when there are 2 Mercs and 2 Objectives, all they need to do is camp, tell me your method of dealing with that and how the Mercenaries have such a disadvantage there.

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The_Lurker
04-21-2004, 04:54 AM
Alright granted, you've made a valid point... about that particular map. "That's part of the game," as you put it.

But again, I state, it's the fact that I LOSE CONTROL. My character cannot move. My character is UNABLE to counter, because he is lieing on the ground in the fetal postion! And it happens repeatedly. The neck snapping I have no problem with. BUT, the fact that the Spy has to render me utterly IMMOBILE for him to grab me, BOTHERS ME TO NO END. If there was a way for me to counter it some way, great. But for that brief moment where my body is jirating, and I cannot even move forward or anything as the spy gets in position behind me, BUGS ME. If I could move even the slightest, I would be satisfied, that's all I'm tryint to say... GET IT THROUGH YOUR SKULL! sheesh :P

Add to the list grabbing as well, and sleeping... Look, I understand you have to take the merc out for you to do anything, but the fact that for a few brief moments you can't do anything, is very frustrating. If there were a way for you to take the merc out and not have him completely helpless, I would be pleased, that is all I'm trying to say.

-now, I really must go to bed... I'll continue this later.

DisTurBeD_MuNkY
04-21-2004, 04:58 AM
Hey.. it sounds like you're talking about being shocked.. you never once mentioned that!!!

If that is the case, just spin around if you've seen one go behind you, its not that bad, most of the time it'll only work for them on a 50/50 basis if they're lucky. Also, if they've tossed down some smoke, throw on EMF vision, cause they need to use thermal to run through it. Another thing is, charge out of the smoke, that helps. There are a lot of different ways to counter stuff, just gotta figure em out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also.. yeah.. I'm gonna go play some MP anyway.. night http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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Parakeet1
04-21-2004, 05:03 AM
If there is a situation in a game were a player can do nothing at all to improve his situation it is a detriment to the game.

DisTurBeD_MuNkY
04-21-2004, 05:18 AM
So what your saying is, the tazer, the smoke grenades, the spy cam, the ability to jump on people, the ability to grab people, and the ability to knock people out should all be removed from the game? They all end up with the victim being helpless, so yeah.. remove those.. theres some good changes.

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Parakeet1
04-21-2004, 05:52 AM
Run along now child. We are haveing a conversation about complicated gaming ideas. Something someone of your limited intellect is not expected to understand.... as demonstrated by your above post.

Arsonide
04-21-2004, 06:00 AM
Parakeet1 he made a valid point, I'm a neutral party here, being immobile and unable to do anything erks me to no end, but I understand it's a necessary evil. Don't just ignore what he said by insulting him and dismissing his ideas, they made perfect sense, and should help further the conversation.

Parakeet1
04-21-2004, 06:18 AM
Yes but he doesn't understand the difference between extended periods of being helpless and haveing absolutely no chance at escape, example getting tasered, lieing on the ground for 10 seconds and being shot in the head when standing up (they might as well make the taser a insta kill weapon) and short periods of being helpless that result in a rapid respawn, such as when a spy grabs you from behind (not ss and grab) and breaks your neck.

There is also a difference in being helpless when the thing that has caused you to be helpless took alot of skill to do. Longer periods of being helpless are justified by the thing that is making you helpless taking alot of skill to execute. Again we look back at the spy grabing the merc from behind and knocking him out or breaking his neck without sticky shocking him first. It truly took skill for the spy to grab the merc from behind, therefore it is acceptable that the penalty I recieve for letting the spy perform such a hard to accomplish maneuver on me is justified. On the other hand the SS+gas cam tactic is insanly easy to do yet results in the same thing as the grab from behind. The penalty for being ss and then gas camed is certainly not justified.

Sceptre6666
04-21-2004, 06:31 AM
To be honest, I dont really ENJOY being knocked out, but I find it cool as hell, because i can usually hear the sound of a dull, muffled battle through the sleeping music, and I think the effect is sweet.

DisTurBeD_MuNkY
04-21-2004, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Parakeet1:
Run along now child. We are haveing a conversation about complicated gaming ideas. Something someone of your limited intellect is not expected to understand.... as demonstrated by your above post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, complicated gaming ideas.. you want to remove half of the game... utterly incomprehensible!

And if I'm the child, why is it you have difficulties being civil? Everytime I've seen you reply you respond with an insult, must be cause you're sooo mature.

Stop b*tching, accept the game the way it is, don't bother coming back.

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Toasty8080
04-21-2004, 08:34 AM
getting knocked out may not be cool but knocking someone out sure is. its sort of a reward for the knocker and punishment for knockee.

The_Lurker
04-21-2004, 03:00 PM
I'm not suggesting we remove these parts from the game. I'm suggesting more modification.

How about the fact that a 150-180 pound man landing on someones SKULL causes them to go to sleep rather then outright kill them... Maybe incorporating insta-kill moves for the spy RATHER then these stun moves might be the more productive move.And remove the stun moves (for BOTH sides) altogether... Would that be satisfactory?

I really don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out now.

OmegaWolves
04-21-2004, 04:37 PM
For one the point of the spy is not to kill, it is to get in out and finish the objectives without being dedected. You would actually want to play a game where no uses tazers or gas? How cool would that be, spy's couldn't use a KEY item in their arsenel and mercs would have no way to freeze their enemys. You say this game isn't balanced but it most definatley is. Some people say on maps that either side has a certain advantage but really the only advantage you can gain over your opponent is having a smarter and more tactical team.

HideNPeek
04-21-2004, 04:52 PM
Well, ive lost many times to spys who use REAL SPY TACTICS and who are REALLY SKILLED


I think some of these cheese tactics set by noskilled people are lame. *SHOCK/STICKY is lame and trust me, i dont care who u are, if they are close enuff, u wont escape it... not at all, and if u go to sleep and they are close enough, ur gonna die, beacuse they can jump off of ANYTHING to "Mario" (hehe) you...


Trance2.0 i belive his name was, he is one of the better REAL SPY players ive ran across, im not sure if he uses cheese tactics, but the few games i played with him, once he grabbed my neck, and just let me go to sleep, i wake up and he almost fully nutrilized a nd133... THAT is a real tactic... Because later on he only had 2 seconds left to nutrilize it, and did so. Game over in 6 minutes i belive... I lost



Also many other spys who use good tactics, ive ran across a few who shoot my wall mines when i walk byem, thats not cheese, thats using ur head... Id walk by the mine and BAM...


Ive also ran across mercs who just let u choke on smoke grenades trying to get to them while they nutrilize nd133...


Me myself i Throw smokes at and around any entrance and nutrilize as much as i can until i hear a grenade get launched or the enemy coming in, works perfect...


What im trying to say is, There is cheese tactics, and they should not be in the game, for 1 i think sticky cameras should not spew gas, maybe somthin, but not gas, maybe they should explode like a chafe... but gas, NO.

and they need to do somthing about the spy laser on the gun, i turn it off, holster my weapon, and when i wanna unholster for a shot, the laser is back on alerting mercs to were i am... i dont like that... and i think it should *as unrealistic as it sounds* take 3 shots to the head to kill a spy... Its to easy to kill spys i know this from experinence, as inaccurate as the merc gun is, i point it at there head and shoot, and spy 9 time outta 10 dies instantly... headshot, i win... that needs to be fixxed, thats why spys complain about dieing so much, its not that the merc gun is so strong, its that the merc get in headshots... 1 and ur dead...

Soma_Addict
04-21-2004, 05:14 PM
HideNPeek, hold the 'x' button down while taking out the spy gun and it will draw the weapon from the holster with the laser turned off.

The_Lurker
04-22-2004, 02:31 AM
Anyways, with rumors of a buddylist being implemented in the next patch, I'm looking forward to getting to know people who I'd rather be playing with, then people I want nothing to do with.

Hopefully this will alleviate problems by seperating the two schools of spy and mercs... hopefully.