multiplay balancing issues

[N.A.D.S.]

What if any ideas or changes would you guys make to the multiplayer on pc to make the game more balanced.

Personally I would take away the ability for smoke to knock out a merc or even take out the spy smoke grenades all together, it leads to stale multiplayer where spies only go for kills and not for objectives. It seems a little too powerful and defeats the purpose of spies having to sneak. With the smoke grenades you can easily disable mercs by dropping one then zapping them, it seems unbalanced for the unit that is supposed to be non lethal and based on steal to have such a strong offensive tactic.

Any other ideas?

[N.A.D.S.]

What if any ideas or changes would you guys make to the multiplayer on pc to make the game more balanced.

Personally I would take away the ability for smoke to knock out a merc or even take out the spy smoke grenades all together, it leads to stale multiplayer where spies only go for kills and not for objectives. It seems a little too powerful and defeats the purpose of spies having to sneak. With the smoke grenades you can easily disable mercs by dropping one then zapping them, it seems unbalanced for the unit that is supposed to be non lethal and based on steal to have such a strong offensive tactic.

Any other ideas?

[Xagothae]

no.

[TheJoyStick]

I'd like a spy railgun, and for the mercs to have absolutely nothing but a pencil.


A big railgun... With laser tracking, and thermal optics. Also, the ability to go through infinite amounts of boundaries (walls, doors, etc etc)

[DaRizat_SCD]

You cant blast the smoke greande anywhere online, because as you so succinctly put it, everyone uses it, thats all they use, end of story. 80% of players just litter the level with smoke, the other 20 have caught onto shock and cam. SO if you come on and say anythign negative on smokes, youll get put down. Trust me. Its a part of the game that it appears we will just have to deal with.

[N.A.D.S.]

I know everyone uses it and i guess it just takes a lot of the novelty of the game away, it turns the game from a cat and mouse style game to a normal deathmatchish game, which we seem to have an abundance of. Maybe they could just make the smoke grenade hamper vision and thats it. I just find that the game isn't fun anymore with all these people throwing smoke.

[N.A.D.S.]

all i want is a server option to turn off smoke grenade or change how it works, then the other 80% could still use it and be gay

[IonBlue]

They need to fix the spawn killing

[wingspan32zx]

I dont' have a huge problem with smoke nades as much as cams, I would say smoke is evened out by the tazer. I have generally found that the game is well balanced; I usually try to play merc.

"It's not about vanity, it's about looking good."

[MrBisto]

Yep, spawn killing/camping is a pain in the butt.

Its so annoying when someone just stands watching the spawn on vertigo plaza and catches you wherever you go. Or on museum where you find grenades lobbed into the spawn just at the point they know you should be respawning.

----------------------------------------------------------

GamerTag 1: DJToot
GamerTag 2: Mr Toot

Also on Amped 2, Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow and PGR 2

[Black..Lotus]

omg don't remove the smoke nade. many spies use it defensive!! it 's just one of the litle defenses a spy has against a mer when he is neutralizing a ND!!
and btw smoke isn't taht effective, you can easily charge out of it as a merc (not like the cam that gives you an instant sleep.

just stop wanking, the game is really balanced !!!!
just try to avoid being caught by a spy, you are the hunnter, not the pray.

[N.A.D.S.]

I would be happy if that was what the spies used thier smoke grenades for Black..Lotus, but in most games these days Spies use them as offensive weapons and don't even bother with the ND's, they just try to kill mercs untill no spawns are left. And yeah you can charge out of it, but most spies drop a bunch of them around you so when you charge, you charge right into another smoke cloud. You are right, the merc should be the hunter, but with the sscam and smoke grenades, the spies are becoming the hunters.

[CrakRabbit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IonBlue:
They need to fix the spawn killing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on. I am tired of joining a game and going through an entire round of my head getting shot off before I can even get into the actual arena much less off the spawn point. Nothing kills a game quicker than cheese.

Cheese sucks anyway you slice it.

-cr4k
MP Name (PC): CrakRabbit
Hall of Honor www.clan-hoh.net (http://www.clan-hoh.net)

[DaRizat_SCD]

If youre on XBox, what Nads is talking about is all you see. What you get in the best case scenario is spies who sneak poorly, and when you find them, you shoot at them which causes them to toss like 5 smokes in the room while trying to break your neck. Its not cat and mouse, its cat and ******bag smoke ***** who lures you into a ridiculous amount of smoke and KO's youor breaks your neck.

Seeing as how Ive seen this tactic like a million times, Ive grown accustomed to beating it, which exposes me to even more droppers than before. Now im pretty much guaranteed this game, I face this tactic 2 or 3 times, kill the guy, and then they quit, or in the cae of the host, they disconnect, and I lose points.

The online game has really brought out the worst in gamers more then I have ever seen. If you dont play with regular people you know, its a really risky proposition.

[CrakRabbit]

That is why I play more with my clan members in a locked server. I get tired of getting bum rushed by spies and mercs alike. Spawn killing tops my current list for not venturing out onto other player's servers.

-cr4k
MP Name (PC): CrakRabbit
Hall of Honor www.clan-hoh.net (http://www.clan-hoh.net)

[DaRizat_SCD]

I ahvent gotten alot of spawn killing, but thats probably mainly becasue i refuse to play with higher level players on xbox, becasue 99% of them got there by using unethincal tactics, and server map swapping, they only play on thier servers, etc. So I only play level 3 or lower, or if they are level 5 or 6, its pepople I know.

[Vjornaxx]

There's not much that I'd like to see changed in multiplay. I mean, there's a few bugs I'd like addressed. maybe I'd take out the ability for smoke grenades to KO mercs... maybe. I certainly would not want smoke removed... they are an integral part of good spy tactics (smoking the entrance of an area/room to create a temporary wall while you defuse. its a good tactic in hospital, deftech, museum, and a few others). i'd like to see some sort of way to counter double stomping, but it doesn't happen to me often enough for me to think its a true 'exploit'. I think a lot of thought went into balancing the game. I see some complaints about the tazer, but i think the tazer is fine (every time i've tazed a spy it was because the spy wasn't being very spy-like...and i play on xbox). IMHO, the people who cry out about balance issues are the vocal minority. I believe that most SC:PT players are happy with the balance of the game and, as the general skill level goes up with time, more people will realize the effort put into this game to keep the maps balanced and challenging.

except for krauser lab.... that's the one exception i see. that map is impenetrable against a halfway decent merc team.

http://www.angelfire.com/psy/vjornaxx/images/signature.jpg

[Krujin_1]

lol

Smoke grenades arnt really a major issue, and when in comparison to the tazer, smoke is nothing that special. Tactic I use is if someone smokes, drop a frag on the floor (preferably in the smoke so spies cant see it well) and charge behind you or anywhere were there is an opening, soon as he attempts to run behind you, your frag will be standind in his way.

Campers can easily be taken out from sticky cams. People complain about SS + cam, but im sure most of you lot will agree to just plain ol' cam is fine. I have noticed alot of campers can easily be taken out by "pullin a chewbacca" on them with a good teamate.

I think this game is well balanced, although tazer shouldnt last as long as it does.

[OsTFurion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheJoyStick:
I'd like a spy railgun, and for the mercs to have absolutely nothing but a pencil.


A big railgun... With laser tracking, and thermal optics. Also, the ability to go through infinite amounts of boundaries (walls, doors, etc etc)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your an idiot ..

http://w1.520.telia.com/~u52022594/scsig_2.gif

[DaRizat_SCD]

Ill agree on Krauser Lab. That map is freaking ridiculously hard. Ive got a few tactics in my head for it though, thats the next map im working on.

As for the smoke grenades, I think one is a valid tactic, but I think the ability to drop more than one at a time is a big problem, especially on xbox. The teams that put 5 or 6 in front of a door that's a pretty lame tactic in my opinoin. Its beatable, but I dont find it very eithical.

[Vjornaxx]

Well, if they didn't make a merc pass out, then maybe dropping a few smoke grenades would be easier for you to swallow. i see how they could be considered "too effective" as a temporary barrier. especially in hospital at room 116: if you have one spy in the hall and he drops a smoke grenade @ the bottom of the stairs, behind & to the right and another at the bottom of the stairs, behind & to the left, then the mercs literally have a 0% chance of successfully stopping the spy defusing... but that's a very specific scenario (and i know a similar scenario gets repeated in deftech). You're right in the sense that multiple smoke grenades are extremely effective at hampering mercs, but i would argue that if you let the situation get that far out of control (as a merc), then you need to tighten up your defenses and make better use of the gadgets available to you. (the counter to the 116 issue is prevention and a smart downstairs patrol pattern. spies need time to set up an effective smoke screen, and the process can be disrupted by a merc spotting one of the spies).

http://www.angelfire.com/psy/vjornaxx/images/signature.jpg

[DaRizat_SCD]

I understand that, and I agree for the most part, but the one thing I have seen a few times which is hella hard to counter is when 2 spies go instantly to say 202, and one just continues smoking the hallway while the other decontaminates. its constant smoke from the time they hit the room to the time they jump out the window. Its really really hard to defeat, and even when you kill them with grenades, after while the grenades ae gone, then you literally cant stop it. Ive seen some teams devotedly do this on every level. In Deftech and museum, its 100% effective. You can beat it in hospital, but its like 70/30 for a loss.

[COR_Elvis]

This game is perfectly balanced, anyone that begs to differ has simply not learned the game in it's entirety.

Anyone that calls out "Cheater!" is only displaying HIS OWN player status... NOOB.

[DaRizat_SCD]

See COR, thats not entirely true, because there are hella shady tactics out that people use, especially in ranked games.

If you think that the double stomp or SS+Cam is perfectly balanced, then youre the one displaying your player status...cheap.

[COR_Elvis]

1st off, if you get landed on, it's your buddies job to make sure a spy isn't ready to do it again. It's called teamwork.

2nd, Don't get landed on. Carelessness leads to death.

3rd, Mercs have sound sensor, can get out of the camera gas sometimes, have a teamate to wake them up, AND have grenades to shoot off. I think it's fair.

YOU, my friend, having a personal problem with my theory, only states YOUR STAUS... FRUSTRATED AS HELL. lol

Mess with the best, die like the rest.

[DaRizat_SCD]

Sorry, man, but for reason that the countless people on this board who actually have a ton of experience with the game have stated, neither of your two statements are valid.

You cant expect your teammate to bail you out, leaving the rest of the level open, and you cant escape the ss+cam, unless the spy messes it up, its that simple.

The fact is that you obviously cant believe that there might be some problem with this "perfect" game.

Either that, or you depend on these tactics to get by, and if they got patched, you would be unable to win.

[DaRizat_SCD]

And I dont think a guy who has a .83 overall win percentage could really be frustrated as hell...

[COR_Elvis]

You can escape the camera sometimes. I have even coughed and gotten away. Do you have any experience with the PC version?

Look, I've had my neck snapped about 10 times in 3 weeks, and have probably been killed by someone landing on me once or twice.

Other than that, make it hard for the spy to shoot you, they only have 7 shots... IT'S NOT THAT HARD. Once their gun is discharged, GO KILL THEM.

This isn't science, it's elementary.

If you do get knocked out from the gas, so what, shake it off, kill em next time.

[COR_Elvis]

The game is balanced, if spies use cheap tactics, they are lamers.

I don't use cheap tactics, and I don't "double jump". Just because I think the game is balanced, doesn't mean I don't think there are cheap players out there.

AND if a spy double jumps you, he has a 10 second head start to get outta there... thats it! It's not the end of the world.

[DaRizat_SCD]

As far as many of the PC version players on this board have attested, the SS+cam is invincible if done properly. I can only say what I have heard confirmed by 50 people on this board.

On Xbox, its much less effective. And I dont have a problem with any tactic, but there are things about the game that arent balanced, plain as that.

Theres nothing that you can say to convince me that someone should be able to repeatedly jump on someone who has no control at all? I mean if you want to do that go and play mario.

I probably havent had any of these tactic done on me in over a week, becasue i am proficient with my taser, grenades, visions and gun. But that doesnt mean that these tactics are fair or ethical.

I think someone who consistantly beats these tactics should be the first person to pass judgement on them, dont you?

[COR_Elvis]

.83 win percentage? Are you sure you mean that? Because, as we all know, a 2 win percentage means you win 2% of the time. 1 out of 50 games.

I think you mean .83 win RATE. cya buddy.

[d12dotcom]

If you cant see the spy you cant dodge the shockers. Also if you get knocked out by SS+cam chances are you will be jumped on or smoke naded and grabbed.

[COR_Elvis]

Pass judgement? Who are you?

There ARE lame people out there that don't care if they play cheap... then there are players like you and me.

I bet you're my XBox twin, so let's just leave it at that. I have 35 posts in 2 years, I don't quarrel much. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[COR_Elvis]

JUST CROUCH IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET YOU NECK SNAPPED.

[d12dotcom]

If you crouch then you get knocked out by the smoke, simple as.

[DaRizat_SCD]

I understand. Settled.

[DarkFenrir]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by COR_Elvis:
You can escape the camera sometimes. I have even coughed and gotten away. Do you have any experience with the PC version?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a common delusion. YOU didn't do anything right to get out of that smoke. The spy messed up. That's fact.

If the spy knows what he's doing, you will never escape the gas. 100 percent of the time, no failure, no escape, period. I've done so much testing on this it's stupid. (On PC)

There's just enough spies out there that do this thing wrong that people like you think you know how to avoid it. But it just isn't true.

[COR_Elvis]

Just my luck, right when I make friends with one disputee, I get another dispute.

Just to prove you don't know what the *** you are talking about... I said "You can escape the camera sometimes. I have even coughed and gotten away."

When I say you can escape the camera sometimes, that means the spy ***ed up and you are ok.
When I say "I have even coughed and gotten away" that means that I heard my merc coughing, and I did not go to sleep.

You calling me a liar? Cuz that's your only hope to win this arguement.

[N.A.D.S.]

I don't think anyone was calling you a liar, i think you may not have fully stated what you were aguing before and people misinterpreted you. Anyways, i haven't seen a huge problem with spawn killing, but i could see how it would suck. Tazer in my eyes is fine, because if you are a spy and are careless enough to get close enough to a merc and be detected, then you deserve to be tazered and killed. Double jumping seems like it could be a problem, maybe they could put in a system that calculates damage depending on how far a spy fell to land on you, that way he couldn't just stand on a box and kill you from a 2 or 3 foot difference in height drop. But the smoke I stick strongly by, maybe if they just made it very hard to see and still moved slow, but didn't make you pass out, or even make the smoke affect the spy in the same way it affects the merc, then it would truly be defensive and not a tool of offense.

[DaRizat_SCD]

To be honnest, I thought the smoke was unfair for about 3 days, now I jsut find it monotonous and boring.

Since thats the only trick anyone knows, all you do now is stay back away from the crazy spy and pick him off on EMT, or Motion. I just let them get away, if thats what they are doing, and if they are trying to attack me with it, I just keep running backwards running off 3 round bursts, and if they get too close, they catch a taser blast.

Its actually more boring than frustrating nowadays.

[GodlyOne]

I play PC version but also own the Xbox version and use it at LANs. More importantly than the following balance issues (to me) are the joining issues, punkbuster issues, and cd-key issues which are currently disallowing me to play with my friends http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif.
What I think (for those who care):

1) Cameras shouldn't have such powerful smoke ability. SS/Camera can be 100% effective at knocking out a merc if employed by a decent spy, is that fair? Ehhh, probably a bit unbalanced. I would remove the gas off the camera and make it a bit quieter to keep it a decent tool.

2) Spawn camping for either side should be prevented. I am suprised nobody has brought up double teaming the mercs and spawn killing by spies, maybe and I just didn't see it. I see this even more often than a frag spawn kill, and currently there is no remedy.

3) Crouched mercs shouldn't be invulnerable to neck snaps. There are servers dedicated to practicing Deathmatch, which is fun occasionally even to me, and mercs love to crawl around and ruin them. Plus in a normal games I see mercs get scared and just crouch away from any boxes and become invincible. I find this a bit questionable and think spies should still be able to neck snap a crouched merc.

4) I think the taser only needs to be fixed in one way. If a spy is in the air, you shouldn't be able to taze them and stop them in midair to prevent them from landing on you. Besides that I think taser is fair game. It makes so spies can't just rush the mercs.

5) Misc. map adjustments (Krauser Lab especially) along with new maps would be much appreciated! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

6) Some way to see if things such as Revenge are really on. Even though the host can still return to lobby, it would be nice to be able to see game options.

7) Merc stomp should have damage calculated according to the height of the spy when he/she jumped. Also, if the merc is getting up from being knocked out, the 'auto-aim' function (it's there trust me) of a spy's jump shouldn't take effect. This should make the game more realistic (almost always a good thing) and help to prevent double stomp.

8) To address the issue of smoke 'nades. This one is not so straight forward, so as an overall recommendation, Ubi test the **** out of whatever you decide to do. That being said, here are my ideas. Making so the smoke effects the spy to some extent is something that should certainly be tried out, although it could lead to spies cornering themselves. I think a merc going through smoke should have complete vision impairment but should be slowed a small degree less. The epicenter of a smoke 'nade should knock out a merc in a similar fashion as the spy cam used to. Leaving the smoke should have longer lasting effects on the merc (dizziness). However to balance it out, the mercs should have either an effective charge or the ability to hold their breath (like when shooting in scope mode) as long as they start holding their breath before they enter the cloud. Maybe even both, but in this case the charge should make the breath meter go up very quickly. Just some ideas to throw around, I don't feel smoke nades are very unbalanced but other do so here are some ideas.

Gameplay issues (such as balancing) are minor right now when compared to other issues. The game is very balanced as it is, and I think most of the gaming community feels that way.

For what it's worth that's my two cents.

[JERKS]

for the shock+spycam problem i would make it so the spy cams turning is really slow, also maybe it would be better if a merc walked into the gas his visor would get blocked out by frost(like fire extinguiser)and if he stays there long enough get knocked out. also i think they should add for merc equipment a gas mask that takes up 2 slots. then they would be emune to smoke but at a sacfifice of some gadgets.

[N.A.D.S.]

that sounds pretty reasonable to me, what if they added a aggro meter in the stats for xbox (I play pc though) so you could tell if you were gonna play against spies that like to be super aggressive, also a meter to show how many games they quit before losing so people might stop that eventually

[N.A.D.S.]

On a side note, i was reading a bunch of other threads about how people like me are just whining, and if thats what you call it fine, but the game has lost the appeal of a stealthy cat and mouse because of people's cheap tactics, maybe the game is balanced well, but I think making some of these changes that people talk about would bring the game back to its original goal, creating an intense suspensful multiplayer experience and not just another online deathmatch game.

[GodlyOne]

Yeah, see the thing about me "whining" about balance issues is because I have to play public, no choice. With the current patch I can't play with people that I trust so every other game it's aggro spy, or even worse those spies that just annoy you all game long by shooting you in the face with a SS and/or camming you. They don't normally win, but they do make the game totally lame. Oh and then there are those people who call each other up on the phone and make a game together. Then they say stuff like "You have to beat us to earn the right to play spy" at the end of the first round. The hell with them, off to go play another round as merc in some other pub http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif... A lot of you have the luxury of playing with people that are not lamers, and that's awesome, but I don't so I need 'lamer prevention action.' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[N.A.D.S.]

'Lamer prevention action'

hehe - funny but true.

[GodlyOne]

Had a thought about what JERKS said... Maybe it would replace the vision modes...

[BIo-Flex]

I don't really have a problem with the double jump issue since it doesn't seem to happen too often to me, but as a possible fix they should just not make it possible to jump on a merc while they're rising, and that if the merc jumps while being landed on, it could be some sort of parry. For SS+cam, they should just make a hold breath button, but in doing so, your field of vision would get smaller, as if squinting(like 1/5 of screen), so that the merc wouldn't have too much of an advantage. You should probably also continually slow down as you're holding your breath so that it would not be abused and smoke grenades would still have their effectiveness.