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Redwine
05-10-2004, 09:28 AM
In SH2, depth cherges lethal radius was so biggest than in the historical real life......

ABOUT LETHAL RADIUS :


Looking into the SH2 files, and reading about historical values, I found the Lethal Radius for
all Depth Charges in the game are so exaggerated.........

Looking into the historical technical data, we can found in some places the Lethal radius
for a 420 lbs./136 kg. TNT depth charge was between 5 and 6 meters.

In another places do the mention of the early 420 lbs./ 136 kg. TNT depth charges has a
lethal radius of about 4.1 m.

In more detailed level places we can found the Lethal Radius of a Mark III, a 420 lbs.
(136 kg. TNT) depth charge has a lethal radius of about 4.3 m.

A derivate of this was the Mark VII 420 lbs/130 kg, TNT wich had a lethal radius of
about 6.1 m, (according as declared).

An d the Mark VII Heavy 420 lbs/132 kg TNT with moe sink rate, with a lethal radius of
about 6.1 m, (according as declared).

This depth charge was filled with Minol high explosive, increasing its lethal radius up to
7.9 m, (according as declared).

As we can see........ lethal radius for a 420 lbs/ 130kg-136kg TNT vary between 4.1 m
and 6.1 m.

It is really so diferent of what we can found into the sim files............

In the sim, lethal radius was so exaggerate.........

You can found for a depth charge of 429lbs./ 130kg. of explosive a letal radius
of 50 meters !!

It is 164 feet !! More than 10 times higher than the real value!!


Plus........

Damege in SH2 was modeled in acordance with the sub tonage.........

What it means ?

A sub with more tonage will be more resitent to depth cherges and this is not true at all.........

Logic saids us, the more resistant hull will be that from the more deepest sub.......

The sub wich its maximum navigation depth is bigger will be the mos resitant.........

In SH 2 it is not true, the type IX hull has a maximun operative depth of 200m but is to much resistant to depth charges
than a type VII hull, with 260 m of maximun operative depth.........

In consecuence, the stronger hull is the more easy to sink.........


Many persons made depth charges chanes in SH2, me included..........

I correct the lethal radius to real historical values, and solve the hull resistance, changing the submerged tonnage of the subs, to put the sub's resistence in accordance with the hull maximun operative depth not the tonnage..........


Will be great in SH 3 to have real historical Depth Charges Lethal Radius, and sub's hulls resistance in accordance with the hull capacity to resist pressure depth......... not sub's tonnage.

Best regards, Red.


P D :

Some fonts of information........

FONTS OF INFORMATION :

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMUS_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMUS_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMRussian_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMRussian_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMGER_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMGER_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_Mines.htm



http://www.njahof.org/jager/ship_articles.html



http://mscmga.ms.ic.ac.uk/jeb/or/intro.html



http://www.gwpda.org/naval/br1669.htm



http://uboat.net/boats/u427.htm



http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/fourth_dimension/2003/mar03/06_fd_e.htm

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Redwine
05-10-2004, 09:28 AM
In SH2, depth cherges lethal radius was so biggest than in the historical real life......

ABOUT LETHAL RADIUS :


Looking into the SH2 files, and reading about historical values, I found the Lethal Radius for
all Depth Charges in the game are so exaggerated.........

Looking into the historical technical data, we can found in some places the Lethal radius
for a 420 lbs./136 kg. TNT depth charge was between 5 and 6 meters.

In another places do the mention of the early 420 lbs./ 136 kg. TNT depth charges has a
lethal radius of about 4.1 m.

In more detailed level places we can found the Lethal Radius of a Mark III, a 420 lbs.
(136 kg. TNT) depth charge has a lethal radius of about 4.3 m.

A derivate of this was the Mark VII 420 lbs/130 kg, TNT wich had a lethal radius of
about 6.1 m, (according as declared).

An d the Mark VII Heavy 420 lbs/132 kg TNT with moe sink rate, with a lethal radius of
about 6.1 m, (according as declared).

This depth charge was filled with Minol high explosive, increasing its lethal radius up to
7.9 m, (according as declared).

As we can see........ lethal radius for a 420 lbs/ 130kg-136kg TNT vary between 4.1 m
and 6.1 m.

It is really so diferent of what we can found into the sim files............

In the sim, lethal radius was so exaggerate.........

You can found for a depth charge of 429lbs./ 130kg. of explosive a letal radius
of 50 meters !!

It is 164 feet !! More than 10 times higher than the real value!!


Plus........

Damege in SH2 was modeled in acordance with the sub tonage.........

What it means ?

A sub with more tonage will be more resitent to depth cherges and this is not true at all.........

Logic saids us, the more resistant hull will be that from the more deepest sub.......

The sub wich its maximum navigation depth is bigger will be the mos resitant.........

In SH 2 it is not true, the type IX hull has a maximun operative depth of 200m but is to much resistant to depth charges
than a type VII hull, with 260 m of maximun operative depth.........

In consecuence, the stronger hull is the more easy to sink.........


Many persons made depth charges chanes in SH2, me included..........

I correct the lethal radius to real historical values, and solve the hull resistance, changing the submerged tonnage of the subs, to put the sub's resistence in accordance with the hull maximun operative depth not the tonnage..........


Will be great in SH 3 to have real historical Depth Charges Lethal Radius, and sub's hulls resistance in accordance with the hull capacity to resist pressure depth......... not sub's tonnage.

Best regards, Red.


P D :

Some fonts of information........

FONTS OF INFORMATION :

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMUS_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMUS_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMRussian_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMRussian_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMGER_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMGER_Mines.htm



http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_Mines.htm



http://www.njahof.org/jager/ship_articles.html



http://mscmga.ms.ic.ac.uk/jeb/or/intro.html



http://www.gwpda.org/naval/br1669.htm



http://uboat.net/boats/u427.htm



http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/fourth_dimension/2003/mar03/06_fd_e.htm

______________________________
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

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radsov
05-10-2004, 09:44 AM
Sounds like in SHII they modelled the radius on a simple, half the distance, half the power or something similer. When really the power of the charge in water decreases greatly with distance.

Which was why the bouncing bombs used for Dams had to have back spin applied so that they'd hug the wall as they went down.

Hpefully the devs will take heed of your excellent information.

Redwine
05-10-2004, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by radsov:

Sounds like in SHII they modelled the radius on a simple, half the distance, half the power or something similer. When really the power of the charge in water decreases greatly with distance.

Which was why the bouncing bombs used for Dams had to have back spin applied so that they'd hug the wall as they went down.

Hpefully the devs will take heed of your excellent information.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi.....

I am not sure how they modelated the expansive wave, but the distance at wich the depth charge can make a lethal damage with a lethal flooding is so exagerate........

Real values was very lowest than SH2 values......

I use CB's DEV 5 V3 mod, this mod give to the DDs a very random behavior, they are not more linked with a rope to your periscope......

They still dangerous if you have your periscope out of the sea surface...... but when submerged, they has not a magic hability to find you any more.......

When they locate you, many times they loss the contact, or droop the depth charges not exactly over you, instead they launch the depth charges befor you, after you, at one side or another........

Adding my mod of historical lethal radius to CB's Mod, DDs need to put the depth charges into the real and historical lethal radius to cause severe damage to you..........

No more "laser guided depth charges"

The result is very interesting, the DDs need to much more time to kill you.........

You have now the hability to scape from them, if you can not to reach a safe distance and scape from DD's detection radius, they still attacking you up to they sink you, but it takes many hours, 10, 20 and may be 30 hours to sinks you...... step by step with small damage each time............

But, some times, they have very good luck, and they hit you in the first attempts, and if they put a depth charge on you into the lethal radius................

You are done.......... in the first or second attack........... but his not happens always.

Much more realistic, and adrenalinic, you must to take antiacid for your stomach.........and more in concordance with survivors stories.......

http://uboat.net/boats/u427.htm

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/fourth_dimension/2003/mar03/06_fd_e.htm

Will be so great to have this kind of very random DD's behavior, and non magical depth charge release, and real and historical lethal radius in the depth charges.........

Thaks for your comments..........regards, Red.

______________________________
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http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

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"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
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radsov
05-11-2004, 03:18 AM
Thanks for those links.

Modelling the lethal radius isn't that hard. One equation that is simple but realistic is the one used for light intensity where the energy reaching any given point is the inverse square of the distance from the origin.

So if you have a explosion that can generate 400kg/square cm at 1 metre, then at two metres distance the explosive pressure has dropped 4 times to just 100kg/square cm. A dramatic drop in just 1m. At 3 meters this would drop to under 50kg pressure.

In the water and with the shape of the charge used there are other factors but the above would be close enough to reality to be OK. Unless anyone here knows different ? I'm no maths expert at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This just seems like it would work well to me.

I hope they do model the explosions in water on pressure to the hull and calculate this against the hull resistance.

Redwine
05-11-2004, 08:39 AM
Thanks, Radsov......

You are right, but it do not depend on us, almost in SH2 it is not into the open codes......

I am not sure how expansive wave is modelated in SH2, but I had noted damage is reduce by distance increase, but it is not posible to calculate or know if this reduction is lineal or cuadratic...........

The main problem is the lethal radius at wich the depth charge can perforate your hull and produce a terminal flooding is so exagerate, in some cases 10 times biger than in the real life, plus the hull resistance was based on the sub tonnage instead on its hull resistance to depth pressure.......plus the damage value was so exagerate too..........

Imagine, a 280mm shell has asignated a damage value of 15, and it has about 250kg
of explosives and runs at more than 2 times the sound speed...........

A 380mm gun shell has asignated a damge value of 42 with a weight of 800kg, flying at
more than 2 times the sound speed, and with about 650/700kg of high explosives.

A 406 mm gun shel as a damge value of 51, with about 800/900 kg of high explosive,
and a weight of more than 1030kg at more than 2 times the sound speed.........

And a depth Charge of 250lbs. with 78 kg of TNT explosives and near to "cero speed" as
a damage value of 35 !!!

There was no technical method to stablish a correct value for damage level into the game.

Then I decide to check another weapons to make a comparison.........

In example the bombs in the game....

Considering a explosive filling rate of about 60%

I found damage value for bombs was.....between 0.08 and 0.17 damage points for each kg.
of explosives............

Bomb average value was 0.13 damage points for each kg. of explosives..........

Looking into the cannon shell damage values, we found.........

A gun shell of 280mm, and 300kg has 0.06 damage points for each kg. of explosives.

A gun shell of 380mm, and 800kg has 0.057 damage points for each kg. of explosives.

A gun shell of 406mm, and 1030kg has 0.6 damage points for each kg. of explosives.

We can consider an average of 0.06 for gun shells...........

We must to consider, gun shells has a lot of kinetic energy accumulated at impact moment,
they fly at more than 2 times the sound speed.........they must to have lot of damage level,
with no explosive explosion, only with their kinetic energy.

If we consider the kinetic energy included into the damage level, the damage level
corresponding to the explosve explosion, will be so smaller than registered above........

For to not favor too much the submarine, I consider its damage level is corresponding
only for its explosive, without considering its kinetic energy.

This values make the sim, very well playable, but there was a problem with Type II
and Type VII.

Due to the low tonnage of Type II and Type VII, they do not reach the dramatism level
of the Type IX and Type XXI.....

Type II and Type VII remains very vulnerable to depth charges, because the game stablish
damage based on ship tonnage, due to this, I decide to increase all Type II and Type VII
submerged tonnage.

Here the problem........ how to stablish a hull integrity and degradation acording to
real or similar to real values.

Discusing in the Subsim forum, Rommel make the sugestion to use the crush depth or
maximun operational depth to stablish a real diference between diferent submarine
type hulls......

Looking into the estimated crush depth, values found in the web are so diferent......

Somewhere, in a web page, information saids, a Type VII C/42 as a maximun operational depth
of about 200m and a crush depth of about 400m.
And a Type XXI, as an operational depth of about 250m and a crush depth of about 500m.

As we can see this values are so diferent than the game values..........

As the crush depth is an estimated value, I decide to take the maximun operational depth,
it is suposed, this value is directly related to ship crush depth and maintain a same ratio
between diferent sub types.

Based on maximun operational depth, I take the Type XXI in the game, and let it as it was,
with the same tonnage, and start up changing others subs tonnage to stablish the same ratio,
between subs tonnage, than between subs maximun operational depths.........

With this change, we ensure the hull resitance will have the same ratio between diferent
subs types, as beween the maximun operational depth beween diferent subs types.

Changes on submerged tonnage do not affect the game, even if you sunk a sub, the tonnage wich appears is the surfaced tonnage not the submerged one........

a trick but works fine......


Will be good to not have this same problems or unreal behavior in SH3

Thanks for interesting in this fact, it is very important for game realism and inmersion, and not too much considered.......

Regards, Redwine.

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The Ancient History of the Submarine
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badhat17
05-16-2004, 07:13 AM
How did you determine the lethal radius of the various depth charges Redwine ?

Redwine
05-16-2004, 07:45 AM
Hi..........

I put the historical declared value into the corrsponding program files as you can see in the mod......

Declared values was into the web pages linked above........

in example :

http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.htm

They was the distance at wich the depth charge can perforate with a lethal flood level a determined tick hull, an average subhull of the age of making of the depth charge........ may be the same depth charge has lower effect on a later war sub.......

For the knowed depth charges values I used the historical declared in technical builder info............

For the rest I those I had not info, I use a proportional value based on its explosive quantity.......... mainataining the same relationship of meter radius by each kg of explosive........

I had obtained info for lethal radius of TNT and for MINOL/AMATOL explosive types......

If the mod is not perfect, almost it is more near to reality now...........

Used in combination of the hull resistance correction, ( based on hull max depth not in ship tonnage, changing submerged tonnage ) and in combination with the Mod of CB.........DES5 V3 .......... you have a new game...........

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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

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badhat17
05-16-2004, 08:46 AM
Sorry I should have worded my question better , I meant how did you determine the lethal radius of the deptch charges in the original SH2 game paremeters. At the begining of the thread you mention finding one charge that has a lethal radius of 50 metres.

Redwine
05-16-2004, 09:15 AM
Into the "System" folder you have the .ADF files wich has the settings as text

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badhat17
05-16-2004, 04:09 PM
The figure used in the ADF files actualy refers to the minimum safe range , not the lethal range.
For instance if the specified radius is 30 mtr then at 31 mtrs no damage will occur, the sim calculates damage proportionally with range although with what formula I dont know.
During testing I found that the lethal ranges were close enough to historical values so as to be realistic.

Redwine
05-16-2004, 04:56 PM
I do not see the same as you..........

With original settings depth charges exploding so far away of the lethal radius can perforate lethally you hull.......

I made the test many time ago, but I rember depth charges exploding at 3 or 4 times the wide of the hull may be 25 m or more can perforate the hull with lethal flooding.

And very severe damage at a distance of about half sub or a sub........

Original setting are so hard.......

Declared lethal radius for 420 Lbs TNT depth charges was only 4.1 m.

I think so, may be the problem is damage is modelated in a lineal reduction, as Radsov wrote...... a lethal damage at 4.1 m mus to have not power to damage at 30/ 40 m

Plus you have the problem of the sim takes sub tonnage to calculate damage, then the deepest hull is the more easy to sink wrong and unrealistic........ plus you have a pefect DDs detection.......... they are linked with a rope to your periscope.......

This combination produce a high level of lethality in DDs operation..........

Statistics of the war, was, depth charges attack has only 1%/2% of effectivity at early war times, and rise up to between 30% to 40 % at later times.........

In the game is not reproduced this behavior, precision of DDs is too high..........

Some subs was 30 hour under attack and survive, and some receive near to 700 depth charges and survive.............

Russians expend 90,000 depth charges to sink 7 U-boote......... in all WW2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

About low than only one third of the U-Boote lossed in combat actions was sinked
by surface ships, about 250, and not all them by depth charges.

U427, attacking the convoy RA.66, 29 april 1945, was egaged and was attacked by canadian
escorts, HMCS Haida and Iroquois..........
They launch 678 depth charges over the U427......... he scaped and survive.......

U744, a Type VIIC, 6 march 1944, attacking canadian convoy C2, under command of kapitan
Heinz Blischke, was engaged by escorts HMS Kenilworth Castle, HMS Icarus, HMCS Chilliwack, HMCS Fennel, HMCS Chaudiere, HMCS Gatineau and HMCS St Catharines.......... U744 was under attack during 36 hours, was forced to surface due to oxigen need, but was not destroyed and no damage after 36 hours of attack......

There are many histories like this.............

Words of Kapitan Erik Topp :

" we was never afraid of their depth charges ........."

Original setting need to be changed in SH2........

With some changes you can obtain those long time to sink attack described by survivors.......

One of the problem is to determine the value of dammage, is anothe factor in the system ........

I note the damage values are not coincident with another weapons...........

Damage points are so high, as I wrote above.....

Imagine, a 280mm shell has asignated a damage value of 15, and it has about 250kg
of explosives and runs at more than 2 times the sound speed........... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

A 380mm gun shell has asignated a damge value of 42 with a weight of 800kg, flying at
more than 2 times the sound speed, and with about 650/700kg of high explosives. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

A 406 mm gun shel as a damge value of 51, with about 800/900 kg of high explosive,
and a weight of more than 1030 Kg at more than 2 times the sound speed......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

And a depth Charge of 250lbs. with 78 kg of TNT explosives and near to "CERO SPEED" as
a damage value of 35 !!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Even with the correct lethal radius setting those damage points level become the sub so vulnerables...........

There was no technical method to stablish a correct value for damage level into the game.

I made an average between another weapons to stablish a damage points in relationship with the other explosive weapons, and in this I DO NOT take in consideration the KINETIC energy of the cannon bullets.........


Finally, the important is the result of the combination of changes, wich give a more long way to die........ not the exact values, in the mod of CB you have the instructions to change settings if you dont like them or consider they are not correct, same in the lethal radius mod.......

The important is the combination of all factors to obtain situation similar to war stories............

Really more interesting, almost for me...... It is needed to test the changes to see the diference......

After all ..... it is from SH2, The matter is I am interesting in a real behavior in SH3......... and not have the same problems in SH3, just to have the behavior and the statistichs of real life DDs efectivity........ 1/ 2 % at early war and about 30 % at later war, and about 35 or 40 % at so later war........

With those changes in SH2 was posible to have a chance to survive depending may be on "good luck".

Some times you are killed in the second or third DDs overrun......... and may be in the first......... but some time it takes 10 or more hours to DDs to kill you, and in many other you can survive 30 hours under attack....... very random now..........

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[This message was edited by Redwine on Sun May 16 2004 at 06:51 PM.]

Redwine
05-24-2004, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
The figure used in the ADF files actualy refers to the minimum safe range , not the lethal range.
For instance if the specified radius is 30 mtr then at 31 mtrs no damage will occur, the sim calculates damage proportionally with range although with what formula I dont know.
During testing I found that the lethal ranges were close enough to historical values so as to be realistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


As I said above, I do not see the same as you......

Here you have two screen shots............

DDs was englands, the biggest depth charge for GB DDs is the

"UK Mk VII Heavy depth charge (larger minol charge)"

in the file .........

DepthChargeGB_MkVIIHM.ADF


here my settings...........


; UK Mk VII Heavy depth charge (larger minol charge)

[AMMUNITION]
Category = DepthCharge
Type = Generic
SubType = 19977
Model = ODC_barrel
Name = Generic Depth Charge
;Radius = 30 ; min safe radius @ 5mps
Radius = 10.45
Mass = 259.0 ; Kg (570 lb)
Range = 75 ; Meters (max. throwing distance)
SinkRate = 5.1 ; m/s, 16.8 fps
MagazineSize = 1 ; (unused?) only one charge loaded at a time on each kgun
damagepoints = 12.9 ; 172kg minol
ArmorPenetration = 0.0


As you can see the biggest GB depth charge with the biggest lethal radius in my computer is it and has 10.45 meters of lethal radius.........

In the following scren shot you can see a depth charge exploding near my sub..........

It explodes at a distance equal to 2 and a half hull beam..........

That was a Type IX D2 sub........ its beam is 7.5 meters............

Depth Charges is exploding at near to 19 meters....... far away from my ballast tanks surface......... one meter more to arrive to my hull surface........ about 20 meters.......

20 meters far away of my hull........

Look at this................

http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/SH2/DepthCharges2/SimCap03.jpg


The depth charge explodes at near the double distance than the lethal radius of the maximun depth charge lethal radius.........


Here yo can see the damage..............


http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/SH2/DepthCharges2/SimCap02.jpg


As you can see the depth charge is able to make a very hard damage very far from the "radius" setting..........

I loss 45 % of my hull integrity with a 520 lb depth charge exploding at 20 meters far of my hull......... with a lethal radius of 10.45 meters..........

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CB..
05-24-2004, 08:08 PM
i know you pretty much have this sorted RW
but i stumbled across this a while ago

DamageCapacity = 44

adding it to the sub's udf file

like this

[UNIT]
Category = SUBMARINE
Type = Generic
Class = SSUBoat21
Model = NSTUboat21
Origin = Germany
Date = 3601
Crew = 60
DamageCapacity = 44


is another method of decreasing the lethality of the DC's at long range

maybe you could incorporate this aswell as the subdisplacement

finchOU
05-24-2004, 11:01 PM
Dont worry guys! In SH3 I'm sure once you meet your tonage requirment, you automatically WIN th missions and are advanced regardless of post attack Depth Charging. IN Fact, just quit the mission after you get the ships you need! Yay http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif! SO just make sure you get to the convoy and sink your ships before a DD can hurt you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Oh, I think there is a rolling point gauge at the bottom of the screen, so everytime you make something go boom you get a couple of points, then when your magicaly wisked back to port on your automatic flying carpet you cant buy super weapons like Harpoon missles and Nukes to blow all of the ships out of the water....

Sorry couldnt resist. I'm wondering how much time they put into things like researching lethal radius if they cant do a simple thing like listen to thousands of posts demanding a Dynamic Campaign. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I guess we will wait and see......(burned once, shame on them....burned twice, shame on you!)

Redwine
05-24-2004, 11:08 PM
CB...

Screens was related to Badhat comment about depth charges can not to damage beyond the distance value setting in "radius" line..........

Almost in my computer they can damge very far away......

Thanks for the data..... File is finished so long ago, but may be I will try ......with your indication, but it is well balanced now....

Displacement changed was......submerged tonnage only, not surfaced tonnage.....

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[This message was edited by Redwine on Mon May 24 2004 at 10:18 PM.]

CB..
05-25-2004, 05:39 AM
yes i allmost didnt mention it RW i know yuve got it sorted...i only recently found this entry (it isnt in DES5) so thought i'd let yu know

Redwine
05-25-2004, 08:50 AM
I wait for your great! DES6, ot DES5 V4.........

Thanks for your uninterested job for all the subcommunity..........

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badhat17
06-03-2004, 02:24 AM
Trying to estimate a distance from a screenshot is not a reliable testing method. Much better to test using Destroyer Command, create a test mission with stationary subs at various depths then use a depth charge thrower to drop charges directly on the target with depth settings to create a known reliable distance from the target.
Using the most powerful default depth charge in the game I found that a submarine recieved only minor damage after 60 charges exploded with a measured seperation no less than 75 ft and no greater than 165 ft , so hardly lethal.

Redwine
06-03-2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
Trying to estimate a distance from a screenshot is not a reliable testing method. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At first, Badhat, lot of thanks for interesting and support, I wll take in account all your siggestions but............I am disagree with You......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It is supposed the game modelates a 3D enviroment proportionally......

Even if it is really ....is not true at all, but it is the best way........

It is not true at all ..... because the model sure is into a "colision box" wich sue is outside the limit of the 3D graphics.......

You can see it when in example you had collided with a DD........ if you take a external view...... you will see ......you will have colision advice, damage, but in the graphics you never had touched the DD...........

This fact works in oposit and in detriment of the sub....... because your exterior surface is beyond of where the graphics shows the hull limits...........

This makes much more lethal the depth charges.......

I remember a sim, with a bug, may be Combat Aces or CFS2, in wich you pass at 50 meters away of another aircraft and you have a crash.........

A collision box fix was released.........



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
Much better to test using Destroyer Command, create a test mission with stationary subs at various depths then use a depth charge thrower to drop charges directly on the target with depth settings to create a known reliable distance from the target.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At first, this mod is for SH2 not DC.....

If you do that.......

1]How do you knows if the DC modelates the 3D sub model well done ? And SH2 dont ?

2]The depth set for the AI sub will be the Keel Depth....... this will not ensure you any position of the hull surface........

3]When you relese a set of depth charges to a preset depth........ you will know the relative distance to sub keel depth not the sub hull......

4]Finally, you must to take a screen shot and make a manual measurement taking 3D model sizes.......

Then........

5]If you have not feith in SH2 3D modelation, whoy you wll have feith in DC 3D modelation ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


I am sure, 3D modelation in SH2 and DC are not perfect....... but......

If you watch the 3D models size and compare it with periscope depth, short ranges, other ships....... it is enough good......... may be not in beam, but enough good in height.......

Why is enugh good?

Because its size and depth charge lethal radius are not the only factors........

You can stablish the exact historical lethal radius ... and you will not have reality.......

The matter is not to have the lethal radius at exact value between one inch..........

Why ? Because you must to consider damage power points, hull resistence, collision box, DDs AI behavior and sensors capabilities........

Finally the objective is all them working together make posible those long duration DDs attacks.......

Of course, if you become tired after half our of mision you will not enjoy it........

It is apersonal choice.........

I have no reason to think 3D model size are so wrong how to have big error and can not take them as an aproximate data.......

When I try with my first attempts I noted the Depth chages was more normal......

And when I try the first time CB's mod......I found CB's Mod so exiting and of my pleasure, I remain surprised of the change in the game....... it is very good for me the Dds now are very random......... and they depth setings are very random........

Then I made a final version of the mod....... at this time was not a mod, was only in my computer, but I share it with friends who remain satisfied and said me to share it......

Finally, combination of CB's Mod and Depth Charges Lethal Radius mod is not enforced....... it is just another choice, another option abailable for the user.....


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Using the most powerful default depth charge in the game I found that a submarine recieved only minor damage after 60 charges exploded with a measured seperation no less than 75 ft and no greater than 165 ft , so hardly lethal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not understand well this part, but really i do not knows how it works on Destroyer Command...... I play this game no or two times and forget ... I do not like it.... DDs will be always "the enemy ships" for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


One question .........

Did you tried the mod ? Des5 V3 and Depth Charges Lethal Radius .......? had you played with them ?

Forget the radius...... what do you dont like of it ?

Best regards, Redwine.

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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
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[This message was edited by Redwine on Thu June 03 2004 at 11:31 AM.]

badhat17
06-03-2004, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:


1]How do you knows if the DC modelates the 3D sub model well done ? And SH2 dont ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both games use the same game engine with the same models where the bounding box values are defined in the .jrf files , which are common to both games. SH2 and DC collision modeling have the same margin of error.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:


2]The depth set for the AI sub will be the Keel Depth....... this will not ensure you any position of the hull surface........

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The keel depth corresponds with the 0 datum of the y axis used by the model and is the most reliable point of measure. The keel depth will ensure that the position of the lowest point on the hull ( the keel ) is known.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:

3]When you relese a set of depth charges to a preset depth........ you will know the relative distance to sub keel depth not the sub hull......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The keel depth will ensure that the position of the lowest point on the hull ( the keel ) is known.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:

4]Finally, you must to take a screen shot and make a manual measurement taking 3D model sizes.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Measurements taken from screenshots are not acurate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:
5]If you have not feith in SH2 3D modelation, whoy you wll have feith in DC 3D modelation ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Contolled testing with credible test procedures will lead to reliable test results.

Redwine
06-03-2004, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:

Both games use the same game engine with the same models where the bounding box values are defined in the .jrf files , which are common to both games. SH2 and DC collision modeling have the same margin of error.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then ...which is your problem to use SH2 ?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
The keel depth corresponds with the 0 datum of the y axis used by the model and is the most reliable point of measure. The keel depth will ensure that the position of the lowest point on the hull ( the keel ) is known.

The keel depth will ensure that the position of the lowest point on the hull ( the keel ) is known.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And .. ? What ..?
I can see it in the screen shot....... and you never will be able to explode a depth charge just under the keel, it is only posible if the depth charge pass trough the sub........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
Measurements taken from screenshots are not acurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

May be...and what ?

How much is the error.....?

Are you saiding the game representation of the epicenter of the explosion is in wrong place......?

Or the sub sizes are not proportional to the 3d world represented in the game......?

I do not see the same as you.......

Taking screen shots at periscope depth, we have a knowed keel depth, it is into the sub file......

I think so you do not read my post above......

The matter is not to put values of radius between one inch accuracy......

You can do it and you dont solve anything.......

There are another factors .......

Damage power points.......

Power is so high, read data above....

Submarine hull resistance......

It is a disaster...... when I note it I remain surprised ..........

A more resistent hull was more easy to sink, because it is on a sub with lower tonnaje.......

if the hull is more resistent, it must to be more hard to sink, disregarding sub tonnage.......

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
Contolled testing with credible test procedures will lead to reliable test results.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with you, but it is not needed......

It is not a travel to mars.....

You only need to watch the depth charges do not lethally perforate the hull so far away from the historical maker declared value .......

just simple........

If the maker declared value, at which a TNT Depth Charge can perforate an age sub hull,in example type VII hull, is 4.5 meters ........ well it must to happens at or near this distance, may 4 or may be 5......... but not 10 or 15.........

If the declared value for a MINOL depth charge is 7, well it may happens betwen 5 or 9, but not at 20...........

You can made a Mars Mission precision adjust of the Depth charges letahl radius and you will fail........ because it has not utility, because you need to adjust damage power points, and sub hull resistence.......

I adjust damage power points making an average with another weapons.........

I adjust sub hull proportionallity changing submerged tonnage........

CB, had mentioned there is another command to do it, may be to set the acumulative points to perforate the hull, may be....... just another way.........

The matter is the final resilt of combination of all factors, not to have a one inch accuracy in settings......

After all, if you preffer to solve a mission un one hour it is your pleasure...... do it......

I preffer to have those long ...long... Dds attacks with hundreds of depth charges released to be sinked.........

Matter of personal preferences.........


You dont ask my questions.........

Had you played the game with the wonderfull CB's DES5 V3 and this DC fixes ?

And one more........

Are you from the Dev Team of SH2 ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I have the impression you feel bad with my comments.....



Finally, I need to remember, Was not my intemption to discuss SH2 things here, my intemption was only not have the same problems in SH3 ...... we have in SH2.........

Is a lot of job to fix them............. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Willey
06-16-2004, 05:10 AM
Where can I get this DC fix? I'm playing SH2 again sometimes, and those buggers kill my Boat with one or 2 DCs exploding at 20-30m from my sub...

Redwine
06-16-2004, 10:25 AM
At first, the mod was done to works on .......

Sh2 from the box.....

Plus patch V1.1

Plus DES5 V3 CB's Realism Mod

You can aplly all eyecandy mods you want........

Then aplly the Historical Depth Charges Lethal Radius Mod........

You can found the mod here...........

http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/base/mods_sh2_005.htm

With many other of my rare mods, and some little mods from another persons.........

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The Ancient History of the Submarine
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jagtigermk2
06-17-2004, 08:02 AM
The greatest amount of depth charges dropped on a single U-boat during a single-hunt in the war is believed to be 678 dropped onto U-427 in April, 1945. Amazingly the boat survived the onslaught.

Redwine
06-17-2004, 08:36 AM
Yes....... they was not too deadly, you dont believe..... ?

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