Poll: Did you download, and did you get a refund?

[Eat_My_Shortz]

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Did you download, and did you get a refund?

There has been a LOT of angst in the community relating to this download, possibly the most since Uru Live's collapse. Its a pity that the launch of POTS caused so much controversy.

(If you don't know - there is a limit of 5 installs on the download, so many ppl have stated they asked for a refund.)

Well I'm glad I waited for your reactions, because I never downloaded it.

Also, I'd like to know if people are actually getting their refunds. And if so, what percentage of downloads actually got returned?

So pick one of these:

(EDIT: Changed option 4, adding "still waiting")

[This message was edited by Eat_My_Shortz on Fri July 09 2004 at 10:35 PM.]

[This message was edited by Eat_My_Shortz on Mon July 12 2004 at 12:54 AM.]

[Rocky1138]

This poll is missing "Downloaded. Still waiting for refund."

I don't want to write the company off before they have had a chance to prove themselves. I've downloaded it and asked for a refund, but they say it will take 14-20 days before it may show up on my statement.

As long as it shows up on my statement within 25 days, I won't put through a dispute.

I was excited to try out POTS, but I'm going to uninstall it and just buy the regular copy.

http://sigx.yuriy.net/images/skin/Ghost+in+Navy+Blue/0/xRocky1138.png (http://sigx.yuriy.net)

[Reverend Vader]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There has been a LOT of angst in the community relating to this download, possibly the most since Uru Live's collapse. Its a pity that the launch of POTS caused so much controversy.

(If you don't know - there is a limit of 5 installs on the download, so many ppl have stated they asked for a refund.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, technically, the launch of TPotS isn't really the thing that's causing all the angst per se. At this point, the only issue is with downloading the expansion.

Remember, the downloadable version being made available at the eleventh hour was a definite plus. (I'm not aware of any game that was offered as a download AND/OR a boxed version at the same time.) If they hadn't offered the download, the only complaints right now would mostly be, "Where's my copy? I'm going crazy here..." and "Why is UPS so slow?!?!"

So, Ubi and Cyan - I believe - were REALLY trying to do a service to the Uru community... giving them a way to get the expansion right now.

Whoever was responsible for the 5 install limit... definitely a bad idea.

No big deal, however. I had preordered from Amazon for $14.99. The download was made available. I couldn't wait - figured I could cancel my preorder. Explored a while. Found out about the 5 install limit. Have requested a refund. Let my preorder from Amazon stand.

It's on its way.

For me, it's WIN-WIN. I got to play early AND I'll be getting the box in a few days.

http://www.chadrondiscoverychurch.com/RocksSig.jpg

[kevin8020]

Cyan needs money...
some people are buying extra copys of PotS and CC just to get them money! I think trying to get a refund is a dumb idea!

_____________________________
<A HREF="http://www.thepathoftheshell.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.thepathoftheshell.com/images/blkban.jpg
</A>He died for you (http://www.cchr.info)

[Reverend Vader]

Well, there are many people that may have difficulty scrounging up the cash to buy just ONE copy of their own. Most aren't going to buy two or three just to give money to Cyan. (Some will! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I almost would... but I need a little more justification to do so.)

I do plan on buying extra copies as GIFTS, however. I suppose I could have kept the download, burned it to a CD and given it to someone who already has Uru:ABM and said, "Here! Enjoy. Oh, you can't install it more than 4 times."

Yikes.

My opinion: Cyan is going to come out on top of this one. They've done a great job with this expansion.

http://www.chadrondiscoverychurch.com/RocksSig.jpg

[hogarth...]

I doubt there are that many people who would have trouble "scrounging up the cash" to pay for PotS. $20 these days is not a huge amount of money - and remember that all of this content was originally going to be available on a subscription basis; it would likely have cost much more to get this content under that scenario.

If a player has the money to afford a computer that can actually RUN Uru, they can surely skip a few lunches to buy the X-Pack.

I downloaded PotS, and will buy the hard-copy version as well. The content in PotS is worth more than twenty clams to me, anyway.

********

hogarth

[inkwell_]

I did both..bought the d/l and the box.
inki

[Mr Zebe D]

I'm with hogarth and inki. I'm playing the d/l version now: the CD version arrives tomorrow.

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[Mowog]

I was thinking along the same lines... I'm already playing the download, but am thinking of purchasing the Chronicles set later. Just in case, you know!

I'm a great admirer of Cyan, and have been for years. I understand that they lost a great deal of potential income when Live died, so the last thing I'd want to do is to ask for a refund. Not without buying the CD afterwards, that is. And not when there's a risk of refunds cancelling the profits that could eventually lead to the return of Live...

http://www.ketcherside.net/mowog.jpg

Q: "What's even better than playing Uru?"
A: "Playing Uru in stereo 3D!"

[MagooChris]

my thought on the matter is just that it's not $20 Australian. that takes it to about $27.70 and then the CD is $40! yeah, 20 bucks is not too much, but $67.70 for an expansion? I don't think so.

Australia is still yet to see a boxed set yet. all retail stores still say the 15th. It's always the way though, who cares about Australia.

Hell, Just because we hardly get any adventure games here at all, we can wait.

&lt;Sorry Guy's I'm just annoyed, back to school on Monday, and then I won't really have the time to play the game.&gt;

[Eat_My_Shortz]

kevin8020:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think trying to get a refund is a dumb idea!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you want to donate money to Cyan go ahead. Love them or not, we are giving them money in exchange for a product. If they don't deliver it (in a permanent form!) we should get a refund.

It doesn't actually affect them - I assume everyone who asked for a refund is going to buy the box version. (There just isn't enough room on that form for a "Asked for refund, not going to buy box.")

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[mszv]

If people want to buy more than one copy, that's fine, but it seems to me that we are being very supportive of Cyan by buying one copy.

I'm getting the download myself because I'm eager to play PotS! I may also buy the CD version, just want to have a copy I can play without activation. I don't feel I need to do this though, and I feel I'm rather silly for thinking about getting two copies in the first place. I'll also be buying a copy for a family member.

-----------------------------
Regards,
mszv - play as amarez

Put that down, you are not in a game, this is my life!

[Eat_My_Shortz]

I'm surprised after all the ruckus it caused - only 3% of voters had a problem with their download.

Maybe everyone just got so hyped about other people - nobody was really hurt by it?

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[Mr Zebe D]

It's a 6 installs limit, if you feel like editiing your choices. It's one initial and five renewals.

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[PepperPucky]

Umm, is Cyan getting 100% of the money from (1) the boxed POTS, (2) the complete chronicles, and (3) the download? Or isn't some of it going to Ubisoft also?

[maztec]

If you encounter problems because you have installed your five times and need to install again -- it takes but a short email to TryMedia to get them to reactivate your key for an additional install or two -- they added three more to mine (was having issues that I explained to them and they resolved).

In the end the five installs method makes a lot of sense. Why? Because it reduces key sharing and subsequent piracy. I have no problems with itand they are willing to resolve issues when you have them.

Anyway, I don't know many people that make a habit of uninstalling and reinstalling their games regularly. Your more likely to install, play it through, delete, and give it away. So you can pass it on to five people over time -- discounting hardware/reinstall issues. Makes since to me.

After all, we have always leased software -- not purchased to own. If you owned it, you would have the right to change the copyrights/etc. To me that is not much different than books and the art of plagiarism.

Maz


PS: The publishing entity pays the developers salary or agreed upon fee. The publisher makes the money. Trymedia is a secondary B2B service for the distributor that handles a specialize transaction model that the distributor generally can not handle on there own. In so doing Trymedia also takes responsibility for piracy issues with their sales method.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[This message was edited by maztec on Sun July 11 2004 at 12:39 PM.]

[maztec]

Oh and EMS.. just a side note... But I'm beginning to get tired of you always finding the smallest -- and sometimes well warranted (not always) -- issues and showing that yes the rock is hard. But the rock cutter's head is harder :P.

So if it is a real -- serious issue, instead of running around trying to dig up coal -- apply your spade. Use the contacts we make available, clearly expess the issue, and give the world more than 30 minutes to respond. (Please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) It generally takes us a day to notice it on the forums, a day to bring it to the attention of those in charge, and a few days for them to decide if they should respond and how to respond. And if it is Friday, go enjoy the weekend because you are not going to get a response until at least Tuesday.

Oh -- and that isn't just for you EMS -- This is my general for the gripe camp to get a grip camp statement. No offense intended to anyone and my signature applies more than ever to this posting. :|

Maz

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Rocky1138]

While I respect your opinion and choice about the 5 renewal limit, I simply am not inclined to have to call a company to re-install a product that I've purchased. Who is to say the company will not go bankrupt in 6 months and leave everyone trying to access activation servers that do not exist?

I like the freedom of reinstalling all of my games whenever I want. I should, as a user, be able to re-install them as many times as I want to, without any penalty.

http://sigx.yuriy.net/images/skin/Ghost+in+Navy+Blue/0/xRocky1138.png (http://sigx.yuriy.net)

[maztec]

keep up that wet dream there. As for if they go out of business and there are no activation servers? There are always alternatives around such problems.

Anyway - I see nobody being forced to get the download version and buy that way. You do have alternatives. It is merely an option for those who see no need in wasting resources - oil, plantic, cardboard, etc. Well, that isn't the main reason - but is how I see it.

Now, if the only way you could get pots was via the download (sorry - but you an get someone somewhere to order and send you a copy via post, so other countries is not a valid excuse) then there would be a reason to complain. But it isn't and the issues around the limit are minute.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Eat_My_Shortz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh and EMS.. just a side note... But I'm beginning to get tired of you always finding the smallest -- and sometimes well warranted (not always) -- issues and showing that yes the rock is hard. But the rock cutter's head is harder :P.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Maz - not trying to make anyone look bad. Yes sometimes I do pick on small issues. But I think ... for whatever reason you reinstalled, IF you suddenly found one day that you could never play POTS ever again, and it had long left stores, then it WOULDN'T be a small issue.

Of course nobody is forced to buy the download version. The reason I made this poll is because I was interested in this dilemma and to see what the community in general thought of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To me that is not much different than books and the art of plagiarism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Comparing this to books - of course you can't copy material out of books just like you cant pirate a game. But this rule is like a book disintegrating after being placed on the shelf five times. Haven't you paid for it? Don't you have the right to play it and use it as much as you like?

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[maztec]

Hmmm... to me it is more like borrowing a book from a private library and having to return it in three days -- after having paid $100 for the priveledge of using the book. (Yes, BTDT.)

You should know what you are getting into when you take action on something.

The one place that I feel Trymedia has failed is in providing the limited copies warning before downlaod, before install, and again before payment.


BTW, thanks for understanding http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Eat_My_Shortz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The one place that I feel Trymedia has failed is in providing the limited copies warning before downlaod, before install, and again before payment.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh really? I thought it told you after you downloaded (from what I've heard, I never dl'd it). So when exactly did they break it to you?

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You paid $100 for a book and had to return it? Whats a Private Library, like a Uni library or something?

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The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[Mr Zebe D]

Maz's sentence is missing the word 'not' - it only tells you after you've downloaded and paid, which is wrong.

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[Eat_My_Shortz]

Whoa. Grammar overload. So lets get this straight...

It DOESN'T tell you before you download (duh)
It DOESN'T tell you before you pay/install
It ONLY tells you after you've paid?

Doesn't the law then state that its not a legal part of the contract, since the money and product changed hands BEFORE this point was made known to the purchaser?
_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[Mr Zebe D]

You may have a point there, EMS.

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Cocoa Parties Unlimited!

[MagooChris]

and if you read all the official Ubi stuff, it tells you that it's yours to own, just if you had bought the cd.....

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v292/catsau/Ozmyst.jpg (http://forums.guildofgreeters.com/index.php?showtopic=3738&st=0)

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Well maybe thats why Maz was able to arrange some more installs with Ubi/Trimedia.

Ahh Magoo... what Ubi material tells u this?

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[maztec]

Guys that is what I said. I did not miss te word not. They failed in doing what I said.

Anyway it is a limitation that makes since to limit piracy and since none of you even purchased it that way, you don't really have anything at all to gripe about. Now do you?

I don't see hardly anyone who got it griping.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Mr Zebe D]

Sorry, Maz. It doesn't make sense to me without the not.

I did purchase it that way, and I'm not griping. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Luton UK. GMT.
Cocoa Parties Unlimited!

[Rocky1138]

Keep up the wet dream? How old are you, 12?
The truth is that I, as a user, should be able to re-install something as many times as I want to if I've already paid for it. What you consider a wet dream, I consider reality. I really can't understand someone trying to defend the 5 renewal limit. It's mind-boggling.

What I have a real problem with is that I was suckered into their scheme and now have to watch to see if they follow through on their word to refund my money.

Bottom line: It was not explained beforehand that we would only get to re-install it 5 times.

http://sigx.yuriy.net/images/skin/Ghost+in+Navy+Blue/0/xRocky1138.png (http://sigx.yuriy.net)

[oopzie]

a system like this is like asking ppl to please pirate.. when you get a limited number of installing it.. you dont buy it.. you rent it.. and with crappy terms as well.. what if you buy it and in 2 years want to play the 3rd install.. and theres no authservers up anymore for example?.. this is just a way for UBI to make ppl mad and make fewer ppl buy it so that they can kill off the URU series and justify it with some lame excuse that not enough ppl paid for it and then completely neglect to mention this scam.. wishing they all burn in ...... isnt to far from my mind..


(Edited for language)

[This message was edited by _ Paula _ on Tue July 13 2004 at 11:05 AM.]

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Oopzie - please watch the language and stop throwing wild accusations at companies!

OK everyone just calm down! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Calm?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyway it is a limitation that makes since to limit piracy and since none of you even purchased it that way, you don't really have anything at all to gripe about. Now do you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I suppose not. I'm not really griping, though. If I am, its on behalf of people like Rocky and the 8% of POTS players who wanted a refund.

Interesting to note that there are now 2% who have gotten their refund, (and as we know Maz got his license extended) so at least Ubi is doing something about it. Which is more or less why I started this thread.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[oopzie]

considering everything else they have done the last 7-8 months.. I'm not so sure my theory is too "wild".. and they arent exactly going out of their way to change.. a company of this size would have the brain to know this is downright fraud in advance or they should all go get diffrent jobs..

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Fraud? Are we still talking about Uru Live, or the POTS download.
I admit there are some *hiccups* but you can hardly call it fraud.
Mistakes were made. Expectations were not met. The Plans had to be changed. In the end, we lost Live, and yes, some people had to ask for refunds on POTS, then buy the box version.
In the end, nobody was really hurt (except maybe Cyan - the loser in this scenario). But I think they'll come out allright as well.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

[maztec]

Cyan is the loser here? I think even Ubi wan the loser. I seriously doubt they have recouped the develpment costs that they incurred by loaning to Cyan. Cyan hasn't had to do major layoffs, a whole division, because their game didn't do well. Ubi had to let a lot of employees go when things changed. And Cyan is still making money off of this.

As for fraud?

You can not call something fraud if it was unintentional. I seriously doubt anyone at Cyan or Ubi sat in a corner maniachly planning the failure of live and subsequent scenario for their own profit.

Phew I think I made it through this post without telling people to stop being stupid. Yay!


Maz

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[poutrew]

Well, I did the download. I shook my head at the small number of installs you are allowed. 6 is not very much - I can't remember now, but if you need a reauthorization after making massive changes to your system, then it is really inadequate. I once had to re-install Windows 15 (fifteen) times in a six week period due to upgrade issues, and almost got into a verbal fight with the "nice" lady I had to *beg* to give me a new code... that I wasn't a pirate.

Still, I decided to pay for the POTS download, and then went out and bought the CD when it became available 3 days later at Gamestop. It isn't a money issue with me.

I dunno, but it seems to me that either Cyan, or Ubi, or both are making some very crazy business decisions as of late. If the trend that began with the closure of URU Live continues.... perhaps in ten years, the CD I bought will be my only access point to relive old URU memories. A company as big as Intel can afford to make a unsound decision with regards to making a CPU, but even that places AMD in a stronger position, and they have *Billions* of dollars behind them. Can Cyan survive many more issues like this? I sure hope so, because as of right now, nothing can replace the type of game they make, and a world of only hackem -n- slashem computer games makes me sick to even think about. In the immediate future, I don't see anyone going belly up - we will get our Myst 4. But the future beyond that seems to be shrouded in dense fog... are we going to get a Myst 5? Or will 'Something Else" TM just be Dreamware? Nothing about the distant future (and in computer years that is less than 24 months) is a sure thing, but I don't mind saying I'm geting a bit worried. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Well it seems I'm not all up to date on the financial situation. I wasn't aware layoffs had to be made. How sad. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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The Gathered Will Tell the PATH OF THE SHELL! EMS now has POTS!

[Jeff433]

Someone mentioned keygen...

I don't like the idea, but it sounds like a last resort thing.

--------------------
Water Alchemist
Alchemic Producer of Hair Recoloring Objects (APHRO).
http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v78/jeff433/Hughesalchemist.jpg

[KayBee1]

I bought the download on the release date. Installed it, played it, completed it and I'm very happy with it.

It came to $28.50 Australian - as compared to $59.95AUD that EB's are listing it at...so as far as I'm concerned, I'm way ahead - not only dollar wise, but time wise too - it still hasn't appeared in the shops here in Sydney.

KayBee
"It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."

[Elbasunu]

By the time I have to reinstall this uru expansion pack, I will have either bought uru complete for the sake of collectors value, or will have bought the PoTS box anyway.

I downloaded the XP and marveled at how technology was coming along. I have a really hard time blaming the companies for this issue, because this is new stuff. While there ARE other official game downloaders, its still a relatively new idea for a lot of us.

Anyway: PoTS download good for me, bad for some, lessons to be learned for next time

From Atrus Shard.
Danny on Katran Shard.

[Elkae]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kevin8020:
Cyan needs money...
some people are buying extra copys of PotS and CC just to get them money! I think trying to get a refund is a dumb idea!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Kevin, I hear what you're saying. However imagine how you'd feel if you went to a restaurant, paid for your meal in advance, and when the order came there were five bites of food on it.

I bought the download. Only after my credit card was charged did I learn of the 5-install limit. I was literally livid. I put in a refund request almost immediately. They've asked for 1-2 weeks to process the refund. I say we give them that before we start freaking out.

Meanwhile, I picked up a box of TPotS at the local GameStop.

*two cents*

EDIT: Sorry ... changed "GameSpot" to "GameStop". My apologies for the typo. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

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Proud Member
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[This message was edited by Elkae on Thu July 15 2004 at 04:42 PM.]

[Eat_My_Shortz]

The local GameSpot? Do they have stores in US/UK?

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To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

[Elkae]

EMS, there are GameStop stores in the US ... don't know about UK.

EDIT: Changed GameSpot to GameStop. Sorry.

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[This message was edited by Elkae on Thu July 15 2004 at 04:42 PM.]

[Mr Zebe D]

No, only GAME. There used to be Electronics Boutique as well, but it was bought out.

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Cocoa Parties Unlimited!

[maztec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elkae:
Kevin, I hear what you're saying. However imagine how you'd feel if you went to a restaurant, paid for your meal in advance, and when the order came there were five bites of food on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Learned a valuable lesson, repeatedly. 1) Restaurants charge too much for Raviolis, 2) 3 to 5 Raviolis are not enough to fill a person, 3) never order raviolis at a restaran unless you see someone else with a plate of them.

Knowing how to make raviolis myself, tey are easy and not nearly as time consuming as a restaurant often makes it seem. Not to mention most of them that restauants give you are more dough than filling. Leading to its own sort of pain altogether.

So, I make raviolis for myself instead. They're better and cost me less.

I also know how to write a game for a computer. I know how long it takes, and how hard it is.

A game is like a bowl of Raviolis. You fill it with millions of raviolis, each representing a single line of code. Now, you sell someone a bowl of these raviolis and you tell them to eat them and enjoy. They are more than welcome to eat everyone of them. They are even allowed to share them a little bit with family and friends at there home. But they are not allowed to take the raviolis, split them up, and put them in their own home and their friends home.

So you charge the person $30 for teir raviolis, and they enjoy. But soon they get greedy and careless. With your pocket book they start to share the ravolis, and you getting nothing in return. One bowl shared to a neighbor. Another to that lon lost cousin from Okanawa. No problem they think, it's just a few bowls, nobody is being hurt.

But your cousin shares them also. Pretty soon someone gets the recipe - for what may be some of the most sought after Raviolis in the world. Suddenly you supply of raviolis is being shared with the world, recipe and all. You keep paying for ingerients and research to make them, but never get more than a trickle back. So you go out of business. At which point everyone starts to scream fowl play at the company who had distributed the raviolis for you. But it was the people you had given them to that had abused the raviolis and thir rights by giving them away. It is them who took away your food and your business. Leaving you hungry, but an elite nonconsumer chunk of the world temporarily well fed. But no matter how much they scream for more, they can not get it, because you have starved to death.

Now, intsead to prevent this the ravioli man sticks iD's in your roviolis. He tells you that you can move them five times, as a whole group. Once you have moved them five times, if you don't give him a call and explain why you are moving them so often, he will automatically activate the RFID to make your Raviolis inedible.

Of course you are going to scream out because this is an outrage. You paid for these raviolis. But the subtle truth is that you did not pay to have the right to give these raviolis away to anyone you so please. That is all the ravioli man is trying to prevent. So he can make you more raviolis at a later day. Perhaps a newer and better type. Ones that you will just droo with anticipaiton over.

But, to be fair, he does give you a way to contact him if you ever do have problems. And he will give you new ones if for some reason your batch is stolen.


Maz

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Dara100]

All this Ravioli talk is making me mighty hungry. (I've made my own and know how yummy they are). But don't you see that's where your argument falls down. If the method of distribution of your raviolis is a bowlful with five refills without telling anyone that it's really not "all you can eat" as your advertisements suggest, when you are offering them to everyone else in a box which does fulfill the "bottomless bowl" concept for the same price, in the U.S., anyway, and with even greater chance of "piracy", i.e. sharing with family members, etc. (which seems not to be of greater concern since the "bowl" does not disintegrate in 6 uses and is actually the normal method of distribution for all "foods" of this type), people are naturally going to feel ripped off in the former instance and actually have legal recourse against you for not disclosing your scheme at the beginning of the transaction.

Run-on sentence aside, your raviolis are one of the few comodities which are not freely shared with whomsoever we desire. Imagine buying a house and not being able to let others use it without consulting you first. We only agree to certain restrictions on your ravioli because you run a monopoly and your raviolis are especially delicious, but we don't like it and will not let you run roughshod over us because you can. You're just begging the more clever of us to make our own recipe or do as we please in any case because you are unlikely to send the ravioli police against us.

[maztec]

Not at all Dara.

They alternative form of getting them has a more specific limitation. You can't share it without giving away your bowl. The CD.

Withn the world of media, this is nothing new. These have been the rules of sharing since copyright came in to existence.

You don't copyright your house. But, it is possible to copyright your houses plans.

Copying a book is illegal, so is plagiarism. There are fair use laws. But fair use is not giving something to every person out there.

If your bowl renneth empty, just ask for some more. They will give.

And you changed my analogy.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[maztec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rocky1138:
Keep up the wet dream? How old are you, 12?
The truth is that I, as a user, should be able to re-install something as many times as I want to if I've already paid for it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On your own systems in your own home in accordance with all applicable copyright laws.

And I've never heard a 12 year old refer to a wet dream. Probably have them, but not refer to them. If noting else they are too embarassed to talk about it.

Would it be better if I had said, "Keep up your self delusional dreams of free merchandise that you can give to any friend or foe, without reparation to the company from which the product originated. Throw out copyright laws and rights to intellectual property. Invent an umbrella only ta have your neighbor copy your plans and distribute them to the world. This is not open source, that respects ownership. This is theft."

No, I didn't think so. Wet dream summed it up nicely.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Dara100]

And you are just being subborn and have taken this thread off on a tangent, not to mention stooping to the vulgar "wet dream" to make a dubious point, for which you'd undoubtably castigate a mere member. I expect more of a mod. Your analogy was too faulty to use. Mine is more in keeping with the spirit of this thread.
I and many others are not going to go bowl-in-hand begging "May we please have some more, Sir" for what we payed for in the beginning. The fact that they did not disclose the nature of the transaction before charging customers makes their position legally indefensible. That is why they are willing to refund monies to people who ostesnsibly played the game before asking for a refund. If they were in the right they would say, sorry but no.

EMS is only pointing out the obvious. You seem to be one of the few who are determined to uphold the patently indefensible for your own reasons. That is your right, so have at it.

[Srikandi]

An analogy is just an analogy; it doesn't prove anything. The issue is not about ravioli or umbrellas, it's about software.

The whole issue of intellectual property, especially on electronic media, is under intense social dispute at the moment, so it's not surprising that there's controversy about this. I think we can agree though that there should have been more information up front so consumers could have made a better decision about whether to opt for the download or go for a boxed game. I don't think it's wrong to place limitations on software use, as long as customers don't have to buy the limited software. And companies certainly are entitled to derive income from their efforts, and can reasonably be expected to attempt whatever means will ensure that their goods aren't stolen while still making them widely available. The best means to achieve this has probably not been discovered yet.

As for the vulgarity or otherwise of "wet dream", I'd have to agree that the literal meaning is probably in violation of the forum guidelines, but note that it is widely used as an idiom (at least in some speech communities) and in that use has lost some of its original punch. Language guidelines here and on other forums are woefully inadequate when it comes to dealing with variation, metaphor, idiomaticization and semantic change. But we'll discuss this.

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

[This message was edited by Srikandi on Thu July 15 2004 at 03:23 PM.]

[Elkae]

Maztec, I find your rant on this thread unbecoming of a moderator. I tried to overlook your lewd comment earlier. But now that you've attacked my sentiments, I think I'll tell you to take your ravioli and ....

I don't want to sell the game, I don't want to violate any copyrights ... but I certainly don't want to rent it for a limited time. I have asked for and now received my refund and am quite happy with my UNlimited version of the game.

Thank goodness I know for a fact you don't speak for Cyan or Ubi.

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Proud Member
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[maztec]

I frankly do not percieve wet dream as being lude.

So you are more than welcome to a complain to an admin or another mod. But in my opinion you can take your Victorian era fears of use of language and relax.

I have already agreed on the one issue that is an issue with this. As for it being a bad thing I patently disagree.

In fact I find the ongoing desires to pirate and steal from my profession extremely objectionable. There is no time limit on your product purchase and as I have already proven, if you have issues with the reactivaiton limit they will extend it.

Elkae, I have no problem with you what so ever. But you seem to have one with me. Thrice in the last week you have attacked not what I said, but me instead. I encourage you to message me so we can talk about this.

Dara, moderators are people to. We do have opinions also. Your issues have been thoroughly discussed and put to rest on these forums. If you continue having issues with me having an opinion, I recommend you speak to an administrator.

And no, I would not moderate someone for saying wet dream.


As for a five renew limit being patently indefensible, I recommend you go out and try to sue someone for protecting their copyright. Companies as well as individuals have the right to protect their source of income. Because of digital transport this is becoming more obvious, but has not truly changed in method for quite a while now. And I can't recall a single legal case where it has been decided that a company is not allowed to protect its copyright.

It seems that you are screaming about aa bunch of problems you will likely never encounter. All without any understanding of the reason behind the limit. As I have said before, the one thing I do agree on is that their should be a more public notice of the limited reactivations.

Oh, and pardon me for being the idiot io use an idiom.

Maz

PS: Good thing I didn't bring up shag carpets... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[maztec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elkae:
Thank goodness I know for a fact you don't speak for Cyan or Ubi.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And nor have I been here, nor ever presented myself to be. Because of that type of misconception, my signature be what it be. A short, to the point, disclaimer.

Thanks for reminding me and others of that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In other news, I've brought the issue of a pre-warning annd a checkup on refunds and official process for renewing keys up again with the powers that be. I believe they are checking in to it and also talking with the store to see if they will add some form of notice. I should have been pushier about this a week ago. My apologies for shirking my modly duty to ensure concerns are properly passed on.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Elkae]

Maztec, I have never once attacked you. Never. On occasion I've teased you as being the resident scapegoat (as have many others). I have also, on occasion, disagreed with you. I assume that disagreeing with you constitutes a personal attack.

On the other hand, the few times you've chosen to answer one of my posts directly since I came to this forum, you've done so in a hateful, derogatory and/or demeaning manner.

As for my Victorian era fears ...

*transmission prematurely terminated by author*

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[maztec]

Hah - great ending to a post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I apologize if you have perceived my responses to you as demeaning, derogatory, or hateful. That was not the way I had meant to come off at all. I have a feeling that we are having an issue of perception in regards to what the other says and how it is taken.

Down with the text that does not properly expess vocal intonations!

Care to share a ravioli?


-- and I don't mind being official scapegoat in the least. That is fine. And disageeing with me is not a personal attack.

Maz

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Elkae]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maztec:
Care to share a ravioli?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Someplace private?

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[maztec]

Ooh la laa.. My fiancee would kill me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Whitch2]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elkae:
Someplace private?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Rats! Here I was hoping to mooch a free meal. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[maztec]

*feels watched and proceeds to put away his dirty laundry*

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Elkae]

*hugs Whitch2 and assures her Maz'll bring her a doggie bag later*

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[Ze Pedro]

Here's my point of view:

I love the fact I was able to download it: much cheaper and faster for me.

I don't mind very much the fact I can only install it 5 times. I don't think I'll ever need that many (re)installs, but if I ever do, I'd try contacting Ubisoft and explain my problem. Maybe they would give me some additional installs... maybe not.

I do think it's NOT professional to "hide" the fact about the 5 installs until after payment.

Anyway, not a big issue to me. I'm glad I had POTS faster than usual.

[maztec]

Heya Ze Pedro.

I actually don't think it was intentionally "hidden". Since another company is doing it. it's entirely possible that the people in charge of putting up the store didn't know. Now, that does represent a breakdown in communcation somewhere.. which is all to common.

Happily, they should be doing something to remedy this soon.

*crosses fingers*

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[DebbieDec2003]

I've been reading this thread with interest. My next door neighbour just happens to be a patent/int. property/trademark lawyer. And She wouldn't have a problem with what Ubisoft/Cyan are doing. Yes, it's a touchy issue.

Maztec: I don't find "wet dream" the least offensive personally http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Not a huge deal to me. Loved the ravoli reference. BC (Before Children) I used to make my own. MMMMMM&lt; delicious, stuffed with spinach, egg, and ricotta mixture with a lovely tomato sauce with loads of garlic in it. &lt;&lt;&lt;Mouth waters!&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

OH, yeah, back on topic here...LOL....d/l'ed it, paid, stuck out my tongue at the 5 limit but shrugged and ordered the CD too. Still waiting for it actually, here in Canada.....

have also burned the MYSTURUPOTStm.exe file to a CD for my own, personal use. I'm not one to flout the law and won't be passing it around. Yeah, I can see people being upset at not being told upfront that there was a 5 reinstall limit without a valid reason for more.

Think of the people in Australia and NZ - still waiting for their boxed versions! Now that SUCKS! and if anybody has any trouble with any of my language, well, feel free to PM me, okay?

((((Maztec, my favourite moderator))))))

Deb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ToriaUru on MSN Messenger
ToriainUru on AOL Instant Messenger
http://www.magma.ca/~daylmer

[MagooChris]

Just to let you know I got mine today!!! It's now Out in Australia!!

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v292/catsau/Ozmyst.jpg (http://forums.guildofgreeters.com/index.php?showtopic=3738&st=0)

[Serinde]

May a lurker respond? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
My intention was to buy the box, but I downloaded the game on July 8 when I found out the stores wouldn't have it until the 13th. I only found out about the 5 installation limit on this forum, after I paid for the game. Both sides of the argument have merit, but the limit doesn't bother me personally. For the price of two movie tickets, including gas and parking, I got almost a week of terrific entertainment. AND now I have the "complete trilogy on DVD" (so to speak) without having to wait months or years. I'm a happy camper. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Rocky1138]

UPDATE (07/17/2004)
I just received my money back from TryMedia. The company is respectable and fast.

[Eat_My_Shortz]

The Ravioli thing is a bit far-fetched. (Although quite amusing) - I think the big difference (and the reason why you hear about software/music/movie piracy a lot more than food piracy!) is that software can easily be copied with little expense or effort from the copier.

Whereas food and most other products are made one-for-one.

And, just for the record, Maz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You post too much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Serinde (the Lurker... oooh!) I think you've put a fresh spin on this subject which makes it seem better...

You go to the cinema, you pay money for one viewing. Later you buy the DVD and can have it forever.

You download POTS. You pay money for 5 installs. Later you buy CC or the box version, and can have it forever.

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

[oopzie]

I didnt get the download, I never wanted to.. I want BOX.. BUT, selling something under false pretences like UBU did here is FRAUD. Nomatter what way you turn it, and dont think they are nice for giving you your money back. They are obligated to unless they want to get sued. FRAUD.. and I'm not scared of using the word either... A company is responsible for legal issues and making sure its told in advance, when its not its their incompetence/fault.. .. Besides they didnt hesitate on using legal issues as the reason for not really telling the full/true story about uruLives demize.. so

[ngilb120]

FYI, Ubisoft now clearly states the download limit on thier download page, as well as answer a few other questions. Everyone makes mistakes when trying something new.

[Eat_My_Shortz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I never wanted to.. I want BOX.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aren't you the one who complained about how terrible the European box was?

With regards to the download - yes the Store site (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028) now has the information there, but the Game site (http://www.ubi.com/US/Games/pathoftheshell_pc.htm) does not. Both have direct links to the download.
_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

[maztec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ngilb120:
FYI, Ubisoft now clearly states the download limit on thier download page, as well as answer a few other questions. Everyone makes mistakes when trying something new.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome guess my message finally made it through.

EMS, just cput in a request to have them add it to the game site. Simply an oversight.

Oh and oopzie - don't be stupid. It's unbecoming.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Good job maz.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh and oopzie - don't be stupid. It's unbecoming.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Someone had to say it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.